We don't have a time machine, we can't go back and change, we can't do "what if's"
I feel, and this is just my opinion, that if UWE keep working on the game as much as possible, smoothing performance, adding more maps.. so that in the next big sale, they can really drop the price of the game and get a huge raft of new players - those new players will be met by a much more refined game, and the game will have much more staying power.
I think UWE have done an amazing job with such a small team, but they were up against the highest bar possible (the first NS1 which was virtually perfect), they are up against a market which now has hundreds of games (as opposed to much less when NS1 was released, especially of that quality) and finally they are up against a tougher crowd, we demand more, we expect more.
My only practical suggestion is, yes, a proper tutorial system.
<!--quoteo(post=2038630:date=Dec 2 2012, 02:44 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Dec 2 2012, 02:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because RFK "punishes" new players and only rewards good players, so we can't have that.
So let's add a system that punishes players by giving them no res while dead instead of a system that worked in ns1 and made players want to improve through positive reinforcement.
There is a reason the this game bled players like it did.
No. This game has too many problems for a game that costs money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not convinced on RFK in NS2. It works ok MOBAs but they are different games. You have enforced down-time when you've made a kill by having to replenish hp and mana, along with long Ultimate ability cooldowns. Creep waves are also unaffected by your team deaths, you can still get xp.
How can you be so anti-rfk and still support being able to go fade or take a shotgun. They escalate the skill difference far more than a measly +1 rfk ever could.
<!--quoteo(post=2038306:date=Dec 1 2012, 12:15 PM:name=dissection)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dissection @ Dec 1 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it worth the buy? Still thinking about it and still not sure, especially after reading this thread. Its never a good sign when something like that comes that early...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the game is fine and incredibly fun. There's something for the casual crowd and there's something for the competitive crowd. This thread is a troll thread, and half of the people replying to this thread have played the game for hundreds of hours if not thousands and have lost sight of the goal of games it would appear - That is to say, some are valid, some are just nitpicking to the extreme. As has been explained, the OP based the stats on a specific date where there was verified steam problems, i.e. it's not an actual depiction of the day-to-day NS2 life.
The game itself is cheap, the community is great and in most circles very friendly. There's a lot of community support for the game, organized pick-up-teams at ensl.org, including a dedicated Teamspeak server. The competitive scene is just as friendly, with clans allowing other clans to use their servers for organizing games the owners aren't even involved in.
It's an alternative shooter experience for sure, with heavy emphasis on teamwork, more so than your average shooter - and that in an of itself is worth experiencing.
Buy or don't buy it's really up to whether you can accept that NS2 is currently a pay2win game. Having minimum an i5 or equivalent helps your aim (at least as a marine) and puts you above other similarly skilled players. I'm sort of still able to enjoy the game as an alien, and playing in combat mode where the FPS is actually good enough for me to hit things. But you'll always feel as if your system is holding you back, and it might make you unhappy enough to stop playing and regret your purchase in the end. Just a warning lol.
<!--quoteo(post=2038720:date=Dec 2 2012, 11:56 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Dec 2 2012, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->blizzard also once says that they are disspointed at player performance. well, probably charlie would say the same. its everyones problem. one can always blame the driver for uncreative and boring in a lorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Charlie can be disappointed at player performance if he likes.
The players will be more disappointed at the development performance, and the nose dive in figures of concurrent players is proof to the testimony. It seems like the only people that play the game anymore are the forum fan boys who tell us that there is no issue with performance... right...
I have been less inclined to play lately because when comming as Marines, the Marines I have been commanding have been TOTAL ######. It's not fun when the people are you comming are total ######s. I'd rather play Starcraft 2 with people who don't give me ######.
10 hrs in now I have to say its a lot of fun. I dont get most of the criticism, my guess is that all of this is stuff you`ll have problems with of you are a very advanced player and i have the feeling the NS community is very demanding in general and has a highly competitive, pro-gaming oriented perspective on it. Compared to what problems other games have this at least too me seems negligible. For an indie title its an extremely good game i think.
If anyone in the same position as me reads this - i think its definetely worth the money. And there are enough players (yet?).
<!--quoteo(post=2038968:date=Dec 2 2012, 06:00 PM:name=MinstrelJCF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MinstrelJCF @ Dec 2 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->70% pop drop in one month, is NS2 on the Brink of failure?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh god no. Brink was absolutely horrible. NS2 is no where near that. While I admire the pun, the two really aren't comparable. Bring was godawful on the premise, in my opinion, of "smart movement" in a competitive oriented game. NS2 has a fantastic premise but needs performance fixes and content. AFAIK, content is in the pipeline. I hope performance is also.
Every game bleeds players after the initial release. It's very easy to see with MMOs (excluding WOW). Look at every recent MMO release. The devs double or triple their server count in the first 1-2 months and then end up having to merge servers in the 3rd month. Eventually (3-6 months) shutting down 75% of their servers because most of the population has moved to the next game.
NS2 is also an "old school" game. There's no progression. There's no levels. There's no experience. A lot of players enjoy seeing a little bar go across the screen. NS2 has none of that and, for better or worse, that's going to cost in player retention.
<!--quoteo(post=2038783:date=Dec 2 2012, 10:15 AM:name=Desther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Desther @ Dec 2 2012, 10:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not convinced on RFK in NS2. It works ok MOBAs but they are different games. You have enforced down-time when you've made a kill by having to replenish hp and mana, along with long Ultimate ability cooldowns. Creep waves are also unaffected by your team deaths, you can still get xp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not so, your teammates death means the enemy player has unhindered farming, possibly outleveling your teammate who died in lane, and has the option to push the wave to take down the tower to feed the rest of his team. The dead player also tends to have to wait a substantial amount of time to respawn. You don't want to die.
Dying in ns2 is so insignificant. Marines tend to be back in acting 8 seconds after dying, gun often still there to pick up so no loss in res. No res while dead hardly affects marines as it does aliens with their poor spawning system. Better of ignoring marines and hitting income
<!--quoteo(post=2038705:date=Dec 2 2012, 06:22 AM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Dec 2 2012, 06:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please. It's a fun game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you feel that way, but that doesn't mean the poor performance (and lack of gameplay) suddenly doesn't exist because you enjoy the game. I've seen f2p games with better performance than ns2.
<!--quoteo(post=2039008:date=Dec 3 2012, 12:44 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Dec 3 2012, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dying in ns2 is so insignificant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not so. As alien you can be dead for 30s or more while egg locked. Meaning that the player gets punished for running into a room to save a hive. Or running in first and taking out two marines before dying. The net result is noone attacks and the good players are punished. No RFK and no res when dead really sucks for aliens combined with the long spawn times.
<!--quoteo(post=2039008:date=Dec 3 2012, 01:44 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Dec 3 2012, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm glad you feel that way, but that doesn't mean the poor performance (and lack of gameplay) suddenly doesn't exist because you enjoy the game. I've seen f2p games with better performance than ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right, there are problems with NS2, but saying that it isn't worth 23$ is just untrue. If NS2 is your kind of game and you have a half-decent computer you will have a great time in NS2, despite suboptimal FPS, perhaps a more linear gameplay than NS1 and few maps...The fact that these shortcomings are also very likely to change, thanks to a dedicated dev team (few games have that), makes a purchase even more worth it. If you find the game boring or have some glitch that makes it unplayable right now, my guess is you can give it another try in six months or a year and have a great time then.
<!--quoteo(post=2039138:date=Dec 3 2012, 10:30 AM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Dec 3 2012, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you find the game boring or have some glitch that makes it unplayable right now, my guess is you can give it another try in six months or a year and have a great time then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess the starting point of this thread was that too many people might be taking a break right now. It's not going to be any better in 6 months if the game isn't active enough to make the improvements worthwile.
That being said, I have no clue about what a game like this needs to survive. The drop definitely worries me, but at the same time it was somewhat expected also.
<!--quoteo(post=2039001:date=Dec 2 2012, 05:15 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 2 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Brink was godawful on the premise, in my opinion, of "smart movement" in a competitive oriented game. NS2 has a fantastic premise but needs performance fixes and content. AFAIK, content is in the pipeline. I hope performance is also.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I think Brink had a great idea going for it. Unfortunately the execution was surprisingly bad. I don't know how a larger studio could succeed in creating a game which just felt so bad and not fun to play. The gunplay was not satisfying, the netcode from what I remember was kinda bad also, the models/animations were just... OK, let's just not remember that one. Ever.
NS2 is a bit repetitive. More maps will come but I don't think there's going to be anything that's drastically different. The game is more or less complete. New features might be added, but I'm guessing it'll be a very slow process, with months between.
As far as performance goes, I fear that there might not be much to drastically improve as well, unless they fundamentally recode all the LUA stuff into something else, somehow, or completely rewrite basically the entire game.
<!--quoteo(post=2039008:date=Dec 3 2012, 12:44 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Dec 3 2012, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not so, your teammates death means the enemy player has unhindered farming, possibly outleveling your teammate who died in lane, and has the option to push the wave to take down the tower to feed the rest of his team. The dead player also tends to have to wait a substantial amount of time to respawn. You don't want to die.
Dying in ns2 is so insignificant. Marines tend to be back in acting 8 seconds after dying, gun often still there to pick up so no loss in res. No res while dead hardly affects marines as it does aliens with their poor spawning system. Better of ignoring marines and hitting income<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MOBAs have a much more controlled pace due to towers being able to defend your hero early game. You can easily play defensive and stay alive during laning if you want to. Each attack you make is much more calculated due to mana cost. NS2 is much more volatile (you can sometimes go 5:0 in the first few minutes) but dying is just as significant as it costs you res towers.
<!--quoteo(post=2039130:date=Dec 3 2012, 05:20 AM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Dec 3 2012, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not so. As alien you can be dead for 30s or more while egg locked. Meaning that the player gets punished for running into a room to save a hive. Or running in first and taking out two marines before dying. The net result is noone attacks and the good players are punished. No RFK and no res when dead really sucks for aliens combined with the long spawn times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was mostly referencing marines when I said death is insignificant, because it is for marines. Aliens main punishment should be the loss of res accompanied by the loss of higher lifeforms/vital structures. Not terrible mechanics that cause problems in both pop servers (egg lock) and no res while dead punishing them harder than marines. Hence my earlier post about bad game design bleeding players.
<!--quoteo(post=2039182:date=Dec 3 2012, 08:35 AM:name=Desther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Desther @ Dec 3 2012, 08:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MOBAs have a much more controlled pace due to towers being able to defend your hero early game. You can easily play defensive and stay alive during laning if you want to. Each attack you make is much more calculated due to mana cost. NS2 is much more volatile (you can sometimes go 5:0 in the first few minutes) but dying is just as significant as it costs you res towers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not always, but I have a feeling this is just going to be buts and ifs if we continue discussing Moba vs ns2. Either way, killing marines as an alien is unsatisfying and unrewarding. While dying as a marine doesn't mean anything.
<!--quoteo(post=2036224:date=Nov 28 2012, 02:22 AM:name=extollo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (extollo @ Nov 28 2012, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->recent steam sale - cheap older games - gamers are playing those as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
... there was a sale of alot of games 50-75% off, so ppl are piddling about in them .. I'm one of those culprits .. picked up Civ 5 for 7euro .. picked up something stupid like 10 games for 40euro .. Steam will be doing a cpl more I think before xmas (they did the same last year) .. I've a friend who's on the fence regarding NS2, so he's just waiting for it to appear in a sale ;)
... there was a sale of alot of games 50-75% off, so ppl are piddling about in them .. I'm one of those culprits .. picked up Civ 5 for 7euro .. picked up something stupid like 10 games for 40euro .. Steam will be doing a cpl more I think before xmas (they did the same last year) .. I've a friend who's on the fence regarding NS2, so he's just waiting for it to appear in a sale ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I personally don't buy this line of reasoning basically because it hasn't had a systematic effect on all games. You don't see peak counterstrike numbers reduce by about <b>50-60%</b> when other games go on sale. I do however see NS2 drop from somewhere in the top 30, down into the 70-80's.
4th dec 2012. How many of those above NS2 have recently been on sale? Maybe 5 to 10 at best out of 40 drops?. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/KxtQp.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
We can always come up with factors that explain why our favourite game doesn't seem as popular as we thought it would be in order to self validate. I'm not saying they don't play a role, but you're not being helpful in any way trying to rationalise this as the main reason we went from roughly 6500, to 2500 peak numbers <b>over a month</b>. Not saying 2500 isn't something to be proud of, but that's alot of player dropoff for a <b>multiplayer game</b>, which usually enjoys word of mouth. Maybe NS2 sales have been pretty consistent underneath all of this i don't know, but the player drop has been a pretty stable trend over a reasonably long period of time (1 month), and not some huge instantaneous drop.
It's also december, students are on holidays (most have been for a while now) and thus have more time. This line floating around about the Christmas season being more busy and thus preventing people from playing is pretty silly. We should have seen an increase in numbers from this if anything.
I'm not trying to heap negativity on ns2 for the sake of it and would very much like to see NS2 numbers be alot stronger, but i think the drop very much points towards the lack of clear, compelling gameplay depth, performance being a large part of this in various ways. The game is fun and quite polished in certain areas, just not enough subtle depth and skinner boxing (not the COD type, the skill based type) to spark something really popular. Either way, if it really does continue dropping, combat mode may end up saving ns2 instead of killing it :p.
<!--quoteo(post=2039241:date=Dec 3 2012, 07:31 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 3 2012, 07:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally don't buy this line of reasoning basically because it hasn't had a systematic effect on all games. You don't see peak counterstrike numbers reduce by about <b>50-60%</b> when other games go on sale. I do however see NS2 drop from somewhere in the top 30, down into the 70-80's.
4th dec 2012. How many of those above NS2 have recently been on sale? Maybe 5 to 10 at best out of 40 drops?. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/KxtQp.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see what i can remember from the last sales:
Empire TW Torchlight II XCOM Stronghold? MW3 Endless Space Mount and Blade Terraria Fallout ARMA II NApoleon Binding of Isaac Dishonored F1 2012 Orcs must die Farming Sim Batman Max Payne Just Cause 2
and some i am not quite sure about
but basically this list reads like a list mainly composed of those that have been on the autumn sales or been sold at a discount in the last days. No, you cant say NSII is something special there
The big question is will the player count continue to decrease or stabilize around a healthy number of players. I don't know what is the minimum of players you need to have a stable community, but when it gets too low (few hundreds) I guess you can have negative feedbacks that kicks in, like empty servers getting hard to populate, and make the game crash into zero.
<!--quoteo(post=2039247:date=Dec 4 2012, 02:42 AM:name=dissection)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dissection @ Dec 4 2012, 02:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see what i can remember from the last sales:
Empire TW Torchlight II XCOM Stronghold? MW3 Endless Space Mount and Blade Terraria Fallout ARMA II NApoleon Binding of Isaac Dishonored F1 2012 Orcs must die Farming Sim Batman Max Payne Just Cause 2
and some i am not quite sure about
but basically this list reads like a list mainly composed of those that have been on the autumn sales or been sold at a discount in the last days. No, you cant say NSII is something special there<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alot of those were already above NS2 even at launch which is why i excluded them. One would expect those to draw players indiscriminately from other games as well so you only have 5-10 sale 'anomolies' in the context of NS2 numbers. You also can't discount players who wern't going to play NS2 in the absence of sales anyway (not all sales are cannibalizing). Even if you disregard all of that, you still can't explain at best 20 out of 40 drops.
And if you want to compare something you`d rather compare peak players and not current. It will depend on where in the world its more popular and the timezone you are currently in when taking that screenshot. The peak is around 2500. For a new game thats not sooo much, you are right there. But still its not bad. How many did play Natural Selection 1? I didnt even hear of that game for a long time...
I dont care... During beta there was alot less going on and my fav servers still have been full.. as they are now. Im absolutly sure this will not change.
<!--quoteo(post=2039260:date=Dec 3 2012, 08:10 AM:name=oMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oMe @ Dec 3 2012, 08:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont care... During beta there was alot less going on and my fav servers still have been full.. as they are now. Im absolutly sure this will not change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Noo, dont say that! You are wasting all of the precious negativity we like to blossom in
<!--quoteo(post=2039257:date=Dec 4 2012, 03:05 AM:name=dissection)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dissection @ Dec 4 2012, 03:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if you want to compare something you`d rather compare peak players and not current. It will depend on where in the world its more popular and the timezone you are currently in when taking that screenshot. The peak is around 2500. For a new game thats not sooo much, you are right there. But still its not bad. How many did play Natural Selection 1? I didnt even hear of that game for a long time...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yup you're right its only a snapshot, and i don't mean to base my thinking around just that. I'm just ballparking numbers. Maybe NS2 has only dropped 35 instead of 40 places, i don't know. Maybe they've actually dropped 45 instead of 40? I do think current and peak correlate well enough to draw some interesting discussion however.
Also agree, 2500 is not bad at all. (We don't know how consistent NS2 sales have been and how high the unique player turnover actually is). It's just when you take it in the context of once having 6500 a few days after launch, the player retention drop is quite significant! Significant enough that i don't think its fair nor helpful to simply write it off as the result of sales or some such other.
What important is, if just the performance worked well after release, it would never be dropped like this, never. Maybe there would have been more than 10k cocurrent player instead of less than 1k. I remember me having concern about that ns2 is being released too early considering the performance issues. And that happened. I also remember that UWE said they found new programming which may be able to improve (consistently?) 50% performance. But that didn't work well actually. Even performance drop was detected in these few patches.
Game is fun, but performance and some small issues(maybe for UWE is not small at all) made people leave within a month.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
I think it was obvious that there would be a large drop-off after release. NS2 is designed to be a very niche game and despite intentions it is not a very accessible game to 'get into'. It still has a lot of potential and I hope UWE can work on reducing the barriers to play for newcomers and improving optimisation.
For those interested I have been tracking player/server numbers on ns2hub since the 19th Nov (so it does not include the huge peaks at launch) which you can view here: <a href="http://ns2hub.com/activity/" target="_blank"> <a href="http://ns2hub.com/activity/" target="_blank">http://ns2hub.com/activity/</a></a>
<!--quoteo(post=2039279:date=Dec 3 2012, 05:57 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Dec 3 2012, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it was obvious that there would be a large drop-off after release. NS2 is designed to be a very niche game and despite intentions it is not a very accessible game to 'get into'. It still has a lot of potential and I hope UWE can work on reducing the barriers to play for newcomers and improving optimisation.
For those interested I have been tracking player/server numbers on ns2hub since the 19th Nov (so it does not include the huge peaks at launch) which you can view here: <a href="http://ns2hub.com/activity/" target="_blank"> <a href="http://ns2hub.com/activity/" target="_blank">http://ns2hub.com/activity/</a></a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are probably a dozen ways you can read that, but I certainly don't like the 600 difference between the last two sunday peaks. I guess this week's graph gives us some indication on how things are going to progress from here.
Comments
We don't have a time machine, we can't go back and change, we can't do "what if's"
I feel, and this is just my opinion, that if UWE keep working on the game as much as possible, smoothing performance, adding more maps.. so that in the next big sale, they can really drop the price of the game and get a huge raft of new players - those new players will be met by a much more refined game, and the game will have much more staying power.
I think UWE have done an amazing job with such a small team, but they were up against the highest bar possible (the first NS1 which was virtually perfect), they are up against a market which now has hundreds of games (as opposed to much less when NS1 was released, especially of that quality) and finally they are up against a tougher crowd, we demand more, we expect more.
My only practical suggestion is, yes, a proper tutorial system.
So let's add a system that punishes players by giving them no res while dead instead of a system that worked in ns1 and made players want to improve through positive reinforcement.
There is a reason the this game bled players like it did.
No. This game has too many problems for a game that costs money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not convinced on RFK in NS2. It works ok MOBAs but they are different games. You have enforced down-time when you've made a kill by having to replenish hp and mana, along with long Ultimate ability cooldowns. Creep waves are also unaffected by your team deaths, you can still get xp.
Yes, the game is fine and incredibly fun. There's something for the casual crowd and there's something for the competitive crowd. This thread is a troll thread, and half of the people replying to this thread have played the game for hundreds of hours if not thousands and have lost sight of the goal of games it would appear - That is to say, some are valid, some are just nitpicking to the extreme. As has been explained, the OP based the stats on a specific date where there was verified steam problems, i.e. it's not an actual depiction of the day-to-day NS2 life.
The game itself is cheap, the community is great and in most circles very friendly. There's a lot of community support for the game, organized pick-up-teams at ensl.org, including a dedicated Teamspeak server. The competitive scene is just as friendly, with clans allowing other clans to use their servers for organizing games the owners aren't even involved in.
It's an alternative shooter experience for sure, with heavy emphasis on teamwork, more so than your average shooter - and that in an of itself is worth experiencing.
Charlie can be disappointed at player performance if he likes.
The players will be more disappointed at the development performance, and the nose dive in figures of concurrent players is proof to the testimony. It seems like the only people that play the game anymore are the forum fan boys who tell us that there is no issue with performance... right...
If anyone in the same position as me reads this - i think its definetely worth the money. And there are enough players (yet?).
Oh god no. Brink was absolutely horrible. NS2 is no where near that. While I admire the pun, the two really aren't comparable. Bring was godawful on the premise, in my opinion, of "smart movement" in a competitive oriented game. NS2 has a fantastic premise but needs performance fixes and content. AFAIK, content is in the pipeline. I hope performance is also.
Every game bleeds players after the initial release. It's very easy to see with MMOs (excluding WOW). Look at every recent MMO release. The devs double or triple their server count in the first 1-2 months and then end up having to merge servers in the 3rd month. Eventually (3-6 months) shutting down 75% of their servers because most of the population has moved to the next game.
NS2 is also an "old school" game. There's no progression. There's no levels. There's no experience. A lot of players enjoy seeing a little bar go across the screen. NS2 has none of that and, for better or worse, that's going to cost in player retention.
Not so, your teammates death means the enemy player has unhindered farming, possibly outleveling your teammate who died in lane, and has the option to push the wave to take down the tower to feed the rest of his team. The dead player also tends to have to wait a substantial amount of time to respawn. You don't want to die.
Dying in ns2 is so insignificant. Marines tend to be back in acting 8 seconds after dying, gun often still there to pick up so no loss in res. No res while dead hardly affects marines as it does aliens with their poor spawning system. Better of ignoring marines and hitting income
<!--quoteo(post=2038705:date=Dec 2 2012, 06:22 AM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Dec 2 2012, 06:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please. It's a fun game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you feel that way, but that doesn't mean the poor performance (and lack of gameplay) suddenly doesn't exist because you enjoy the game. I've seen f2p games with better performance than ns2.
Not so. As alien you can be dead for 30s or more while egg locked. Meaning that the player gets punished for running into a room to save a hive. Or running in first and taking out two marines before dying. The net result is noone attacks and the good players are punished. No RFK and no res when dead really sucks for aliens combined with the long spawn times.
You're right, there are problems with NS2, but saying that it isn't worth 23$ is just untrue. If NS2 is your kind of game and you have a half-decent computer you will have a great time in NS2, despite suboptimal FPS, perhaps a more linear gameplay than NS1 and few maps...The fact that these shortcomings are also very likely to change, thanks to a dedicated dev team (few games have that), makes a purchase even more worth it. If you find the game boring or have some glitch that makes it unplayable right now, my guess is you can give it another try in six months or a year and have a great time then.
I guess the starting point of this thread was that too many people might be taking a break right now. It's not going to be any better in 6 months if the game isn't active enough to make the improvements worthwile.
That being said, I have no clue about what a game like this needs to survive. The drop definitely worries me, but at the same time it was somewhat expected also.
Actually I think Brink had a great idea going for it. Unfortunately the execution was surprisingly bad. I don't know how a larger studio could succeed in creating a game which just felt so bad and not fun to play. The gunplay was not satisfying, the netcode from what I remember was kinda bad also, the models/animations were just... OK, let's just not remember that one. Ever.
NS2 is a bit repetitive. More maps will come but I don't think there's going to be anything that's drastically different. The game is more or less complete. New features might be added, but I'm guessing it'll be a very slow process, with months between.
As far as performance goes, I fear that there might not be much to drastically improve as well, unless they fundamentally recode all the LUA stuff into something else, somehow, or completely rewrite basically the entire game.
Dying in ns2 is so insignificant. Marines tend to be back in acting 8 seconds after dying, gun often still there to pick up so no loss in res. No res while dead hardly affects marines as it does aliens with their poor spawning system. Better of ignoring marines and hitting income<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MOBAs have a much more controlled pace due to towers being able to defend your hero early game. You can easily play defensive and stay alive during laning if you want to. Each attack you make is much more calculated due to mana cost. NS2 is much more volatile (you can sometimes go 5:0 in the first few minutes) but dying is just as significant as it costs you res towers.
I was mostly referencing marines when I said death is insignificant, because it is for marines. Aliens main punishment should be the loss of res accompanied by the loss of higher lifeforms/vital structures. Not terrible mechanics that cause problems in both pop servers (egg lock) and no res while dead punishing them harder than marines. Hence my earlier post about bad game design bleeding players.
<!--quoteo(post=2039182:date=Dec 3 2012, 08:35 AM:name=Desther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Desther @ Dec 3 2012, 08:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MOBAs have a much more controlled pace due to towers being able to defend your hero early game. You can easily play defensive and stay alive during laning if you want to. Each attack you make is much more calculated due to mana cost. NS2 is much more volatile (you can sometimes go 5:0 in the first few minutes) but dying is just as significant as it costs you res towers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not always, but I have a feeling this is just going to be buts and ifs if we continue discussing Moba vs ns2. Either way, killing marines as an alien is unsatisfying and unrewarding. While dying as a marine doesn't mean anything.
+1
... there was a sale of alot of games 50-75% off, so ppl are piddling about in them .. I'm one of those culprits .. picked up Civ 5 for 7euro .. picked up something stupid like 10 games for 40euro .. Steam will be doing a cpl more I think before xmas (they did the same last year) .. I've a friend who's on the fence regarding NS2, so he's just waiting for it to appear in a sale ;)
... there was a sale of alot of games 50-75% off, so ppl are piddling about in them .. I'm one of those culprits .. picked up Civ 5 for 7euro .. picked up something stupid like 10 games for 40euro .. Steam will be doing a cpl more I think before xmas (they did the same last year) .. I've a friend who's on the fence regarding NS2, so he's just waiting for it to appear in a sale ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally don't buy this line of reasoning basically because it hasn't had a systematic effect on all games. You don't see peak counterstrike numbers reduce by about <b>50-60%</b> when other games go on sale. I do however see NS2 drop from somewhere in the top 30, down into the 70-80's.
4th dec 2012. How many of those above NS2 have recently been on sale? Maybe 5 to 10 at best out of 40 drops?.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/KxtQp.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
We can always come up with factors that explain why our favourite game doesn't seem as popular as we thought it would be in order to self validate. I'm not saying they don't play a role, but you're not being helpful in any way trying to rationalise this as the main reason we went from roughly 6500, to 2500 peak numbers <b>over a month</b>. Not saying 2500 isn't something to be proud of, but that's alot of player dropoff for a <b>multiplayer game</b>, which usually enjoys word of mouth. Maybe NS2 sales have been pretty consistent underneath all of this i don't know, but the player drop has been a pretty stable trend over a reasonably long period of time (1 month), and not some huge instantaneous drop.
It's also december, students are on holidays (most have been for a while now) and thus have more time. This line floating around about the Christmas season being more busy and thus preventing people from playing is pretty silly. We should have seen an increase in numbers from this if anything.
I'm not trying to heap negativity on ns2 for the sake of it and would very much like to see NS2 numbers be alot stronger, but i think the drop very much points towards the lack of clear, compelling gameplay depth, performance being a large part of this in various ways. The game is fun and quite polished in certain areas, just not enough subtle depth and skinner boxing (not the COD type, the skill based type) to spark something really popular. Either way, if it really does continue dropping, combat mode may end up saving ns2 instead of killing it :p.
4th dec 2012. How many of those above NS2 have recently been on sale? Maybe 5 to 10 at best out of 40 drops?.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/KxtQp.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see what i can remember from the last sales:
Empire TW
Torchlight II
XCOM
Stronghold?
MW3
Endless Space
Mount and Blade
Terraria
Fallout
ARMA II
NApoleon
Binding of Isaac
Dishonored
F1 2012
Orcs must die
Farming Sim
Batman
Max Payne
Just Cause 2
and some i am not quite sure about
but basically this list reads like a list mainly composed of those that have been on the autumn sales or been sold at a discount in the last days. No, you cant say NSII is something special there
Empire TW
Torchlight II
XCOM
Stronghold?
MW3
Endless Space
Mount and Blade
Terraria
Fallout
ARMA II
NApoleon
Binding of Isaac
Dishonored
F1 2012
Orcs must die
Farming Sim
Batman
Max Payne
Just Cause 2
and some i am not quite sure about
but basically this list reads like a list mainly composed of those that have been on the autumn sales or been sold at a discount in the last days. No, you cant say NSII is something special there<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alot of those were already above NS2 even at launch which is why i excluded them. One would expect those to draw players indiscriminately from other games as well so you only have 5-10 sale 'anomolies' in the context of NS2 numbers. You also can't discount players who wern't going to play NS2 in the absence of sales anyway (not all sales are cannibalizing). Even if you disregard all of that, you still can't explain at best 20 out of 40 drops.
How many did play Natural Selection 1? I didnt even hear of that game for a long time...
During beta there was alot less going on and my fav servers still have been full.. as they are now.
Im absolutly sure this will not change.
During beta there was alot less going on and my fav servers still have been full.. as they are now.
Im absolutly sure this will not change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Noo, dont say that! You are wasting all of the precious negativity we like to blossom in
How many did play Natural Selection 1? I didnt even hear of that game for a long time...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yup you're right its only a snapshot, and i don't mean to base my thinking around just that. I'm just ballparking numbers. Maybe NS2 has only dropped 35 instead of 40 places, i don't know. Maybe they've actually dropped 45 instead of 40? I do think current and peak correlate well enough to draw some interesting discussion however.
Also agree, 2500 is not bad at all. (We don't know how consistent NS2 sales have been and how high the unique player turnover actually is). It's just when you take it in the context of once having 6500 a few days after launch, the player retention drop is quite significant! Significant enough that i don't think its fair nor helpful to simply write it off as the result of sales or some such other.
Game is fun, but performance and some small issues(maybe for UWE is not small at all) made people leave within a month.
For those interested I have been tracking player/server numbers on ns2hub since the 19th Nov (so it does not include the huge peaks at launch) which you can view here:
<a href="http://ns2hub.com/activity/" target="_blank">
<a href="http://ns2hub.com/activity/" target="_blank">http://ns2hub.com/activity/</a></a>
For those interested I have been tracking player/server numbers on ns2hub since the 19th Nov (so it does not include the huge peaks at launch) which you can view here:
<a href="http://ns2hub.com/activity/" target="_blank">
<a href="http://ns2hub.com/activity/" target="_blank">http://ns2hub.com/activity/</a></a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are probably a dozen ways you can read that, but I certainly don't like the 600 difference between the last two sunday peaks. I guess this week's graph gives us some indication on how things are going to progress from here.