Its funny that you'd try to bring up NS1 and say that it had less players... While no one here probably knows the true answer to that 1 month or even 1 year after NS1's release, I can say that 2 years after release NS1 still would post close to 2k concurent players, below CS and DOD.
All that for a mod never officially on steam, that players had to go to a website, download and install.
NS1 had a very troubled launch in many ways. The game improved a ton with 2.0 which took 9 months to release. I don't know how the player count was throughout that time, but I think it's definitely the sort of game that people are willing to keep coming back to as future improvements are made.
<!--quoteo(post=2039195:date=Dec 3 2012, 01:06 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Dec 3 2012, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was mostly referencing marines when I said death is insignificant, because it is for marines. Aliens main punishment should be the loss of res accompanied by the loss of higher lifeforms/vital structures. Not terrible mechanics that cause problems in both pop servers (egg lock) and no res while dead punishing them harder than marines. Hence my earlier post about bad game design bleeding players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Loss of lifeform is already a significant loss. The whole point of alien RFK was that you could take a new lifeform to try and recoup that investment in RFK so by the time you died you could evolve it again. Now in NS2, as soon as you die with lerk or fade you're so far behind and res is so slow as alien it is boring as hell.
You can imagine the new players' experience as alien: Spawn as skulk Get killed spend 12s dead Get killed spend 12s dead Get killed spend 30s dead Get a kill! Yay! Get killed spend 30s dead Have res for lerk, evolve to lerk. Cool I can fly! Get 3 kills! Yay. (Optimistic) Get killed and lose lerk and have 5 res. Spawn as skulk Have no res and can't evolve lerk. Get killed spend 12s dead Get killed spend 12s dead Get killed spend 30s dead Get killed spend 30s dead Get killed spend 30s dead Have 9 res. Can't do anything fun. Quit NS2 and never play again.
My typical experience as an oldschool high skill player isn't much fun either. Spawn as skulk Kill 3 or more marines. Die. Spend 30s dead because of egg lock. Kill 3 or more marines trying to defend key map point. Die. Spend 30s dead because of egg lock. Kill 3 or more marines attacking key point. Die. Spend 30s dead because of egg lock. Totally carrying team at this point but because of no res when dead I'm behind everyone else on PRES. Option 1: go lerk. Make no impact on game because of constantly flying away. Option 2: continue for a bit and go fade, by which point the game is usually decided. Go fade and get some frags. Make very little impact on the game because fade is so bad in NS2 and having to constantly run away from marines or when low on hp. Randomly die to some newb's shotgun luck. Have 0 res and have to bite res towers for the next 10 minutes. Option 3: If game is still winnable, go Onos and try and finally make an impact on a game that I've been carrying for 20 minutes now but not won yet because of poor game design. Might not have a chance to go Onos because even a really bad team of marines could have won by this point because of the bad skill/bad comming of the rest of alien players. Game over if killed as Onos. Probably lose the game. Realise had no fun from totally dominating a game. Quit NS2 for something more rewarding to play, like NS1.
Both these scenarios are not fun. Both can be made more fun by the addition of RFK allowing players to recoup investment for higher life form and make an impact on the game.
Fade needs fixed. As does the respawn system for alien - no more early game egg lock please.
<!--quoteo(post=2037385:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:55 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 29 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good thing the alien concept is designed around adding evolutionary upgrades to tweak your units.
Good thing they removed 33% of the upgrades for NS2 too. That <b>really</b> helped things. Boring, passive background bonuses are so thrilling and exciting and help keep the gameplay feeling fresh. So does all these cool abilities aliens can get to fight feelings of repetition </sarcasm>.
Good for them, those people are also deranged and mentally ill if they can actually still derive entertainment from doing the same thing over and over for half their lives. These people are also the ones who aren't putting time and money into other games, and are thus irrelevant. It's pointless to try to develop a market for these imbeciles. They don't even buy and play the Counter-Strike sequels. Why do you keep acting like these people are role models, that they're the kind of player we all should aspire to be, playing ugly old games from a decade or more ago?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ya who cares about these guys who are easy to please, when we could capture a niche and impossible to satisfy portion of gamers.
Spetz. Ironically the reasons you have posted there are EXACTLY the reasons people play combat. You can evolve (or use) what ever lifeform/upgrades you want. I played a lot of NS1 - classic, siege, combat and I also play NS2 "normal" and combat. Normal is a real grab bag, I either find a steamroller server, a server full of vets or a reasonably balanced one.
If I was a new player then I would quit too.
what is the answer? There isn't one short of opening CVARS to make the server configurable without going into the LUA too much. Nerfs will make the vets cry wolf, doing nothing will alienate the newbies.
It is the mods that will keep things alive. I see marine vs marine being a big one if that mod makes it into daylight.
<!--quoteo(post=2039366:date=Dec 3 2012, 08:03 PM:name=kk20)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk20 @ Dec 3 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spetz. Ironically the reasons you have posted there are EXACTLY the reasons people play combat. You can evolve (or use) what ever lifeform/upgrades you want. I played a lot of NS1 - classic, siege, combat and I also play NS2 "normal" and combat. Normal is a real grab bag, I either find a steamroller server, a server full of vets or a reasonably balanced one.
If I was a new player then I would quit too.
what is the answer? There isn't one short of opening CVARS to make the server configurable without going into the LUA too much. Nerfs will make the vets cry wolf, doing nothing will alienate the newbies.
It is the mods that will keep things alive. I see marine vs marine being a big one if that mod makes it into daylight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is that RFK makes it so that there is actually a way to get into classic play on a public server. Without it, you are totally reliant on your team being competent to have any fun. Losing as alien is always a lot less fun than losing as marine. However, with RFK, even as a good player on a losing team, in NS1 you could grab the res for fade, go fade, and struggle to stave off the advancing horde of marines which was fun.
RFK gave a reward for attacking and defending hives. Now, in NS2, the most optimum solution to get resources the fastest, is to sit in the hive and do nothing. This is the optimum which can be determined from game theory, see prisoner's dilemma. As you can guess, this is NOT consistent with a fun gaming experience and retaining players.
Comments
All that for a mod never officially on steam, that players had to go to a website, download and install.
I agree. Loss of lifeform is already a significant loss. The whole point of alien RFK was that you could take a new lifeform to try and recoup that investment in RFK so by the time you died you could evolve it again. Now in NS2, as soon as you die with lerk or fade you're so far behind and res is so slow as alien it is boring as hell.
You can imagine the new players' experience as alien:
Spawn as skulk
Get killed spend 12s dead
Get killed spend 12s dead
Get killed spend 30s dead
Get a kill! Yay!
Get killed spend 30s dead
Have res for lerk, evolve to lerk.
Cool I can fly!
Get 3 kills! Yay. (Optimistic)
Get killed and lose lerk and have 5 res.
Spawn as skulk
Have no res and can't evolve lerk.
Get killed spend 12s dead
Get killed spend 12s dead
Get killed spend 30s dead
Get killed spend 30s dead
Get killed spend 30s dead
Have 9 res. Can't do anything fun.
Quit NS2 and never play again.
My typical experience as an oldschool high skill player isn't much fun either.
Spawn as skulk
Kill 3 or more marines. Die.
Spend 30s dead because of egg lock.
Kill 3 or more marines trying to defend key map point. Die.
Spend 30s dead because of egg lock.
Kill 3 or more marines attacking key point. Die.
Spend 30s dead because of egg lock.
Totally carrying team at this point but because of no res when dead I'm behind everyone else on PRES.
Option 1: go lerk. Make no impact on game because of constantly flying away.
Option 2: continue for a bit and go fade, by which point the game is usually decided. Go fade and get some frags. Make very little impact on the game because fade is so bad in NS2 and having to constantly run away from marines or when low on hp. Randomly die to some newb's shotgun luck. Have 0 res and have to bite res towers for the next 10 minutes.
Option 3: If game is still winnable, go Onos and try and finally make an impact on a game that I've been carrying for 20 minutes now but not won yet because of poor game design. Might not have a chance to go Onos because even a really bad team of marines could have won by this point because of the bad skill/bad comming of the rest of alien players. Game over if killed as Onos.
Probably lose the game.
Realise had no fun from totally dominating a game.
Quit NS2 for something more rewarding to play, like NS1.
Both these scenarios are not fun. Both can be made more fun by the addition of RFK allowing players to recoup investment for higher life form and make an impact on the game.
Fade needs fixed. As does the respawn system for alien - no more early game egg lock please.
Good thing they removed 33% of the upgrades for NS2 too. That <b>really</b> helped things. Boring, passive background bonuses are so thrilling and exciting and help keep the gameplay feeling fresh. So does all these cool abilities aliens can get to fight feelings of repetition </sarcasm>.
Good for them, those people are also deranged and mentally ill if they can actually still derive entertainment from doing the same thing over and over for half their lives. These people are also the ones who aren't putting time and money into other games, and are thus irrelevant. It's pointless to try to develop a market for these imbeciles. They don't even buy and play the Counter-Strike sequels. Why do you keep acting like these people are role models, that they're the kind of player we all should aspire to be, playing ugly old games from a decade or more ago?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ya who cares about these guys who are easy to please, when we could capture a niche and impossible to satisfy portion of gamers.
Temphage for CEO of planet earth.
If I was a new player then I would quit too.
what is the answer? There isn't one short of opening CVARS to make the server configurable without going into the LUA too much. Nerfs will make the vets cry wolf, doing nothing will alienate the newbies.
It is the mods that will keep things alive. I see marine vs marine being a big one if that mod makes it into daylight.
If I was a new player then I would quit too.
what is the answer? There isn't one short of opening CVARS to make the server configurable without going into the LUA too much. Nerfs will make the vets cry wolf, doing nothing will alienate the newbies.
It is the mods that will keep things alive. I see marine vs marine being a big one if that mod makes it into daylight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is that RFK makes it so that there is actually a way to get into classic play on a public server. Without it, you are totally reliant on your team being competent to have any fun. Losing as alien is always a lot less fun than losing as marine. However, with RFK, even as a good player on a losing team, in NS1 you could grab the res for fade, go fade, and struggle to stave off the advancing horde of marines which was fun.
RFK gave a reward for attacking and defending hives. Now, in NS2, the most optimum solution to get resources the fastest, is to sit in the hive and do nothing. This is the optimum which can be determined from game theory, see prisoner's dilemma. As you can guess, this is NOT consistent with a fun gaming experience and retaining players.