I'm just glad GG is limited to gaming. Imagine watching a football game and every time the third quarter rolled around people from the losing team would just walk off the field. Or watching MMA and seeing the player tap out of every match "GG I'm glad I got out before you hurt me"
Also, if the question is towards Pubbers, is the assumption that Comp level players DO f4? Coz that wouldn't be all that professional if thats is the general case.
<!--quoteo(post=2039066:date=Dec 2 2012, 08:55 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Dec 2 2012, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just glad GG is limited to gaming. Imagine watching a football game and every time the third quarter rolled around people from the losing team would just walk off the field. Or watching MMA and seeing the player tap out of every match "GG I'm glad I got out before you hurt me"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most sports are designed in a way that you can come back pretty quickly if the opposing team makes even a small mistake. Most RTS games are not. People also play for the score difference in a league (e.g. in soccer, the team with the better goal difference advances to playoffs when the points are equal).
In sports, there are also fans and advertisers who are watching and demand entertainment, whether their team is winning or losing. Walking off the field would hurt sales of merchandise, tickets, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=2039078:date=Dec 3 2012, 12:21 AM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Dec 3 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, if the question is towards Pubbers, is the assumption that Comp level players DO f4? Coz that wouldn't be all that professional if thats is the general case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Competitive players can concede defeat to move onto the next round in a competitive match, it's not considered unprofessional. I believe the tradition originates in chess, but it was solidified as a major component of competitive gaming in Star Craft. Because the elimination rules of Star Craft are that every structure must be destroyed in order for a loss to be systemically counted against the opponent, it's often frustrating to try to "end" a game that you have definitely won. Consequently, it's considered bad manners to not concede defeat until the last structure is destroyed because there are OBVIOUS points where a comeback is NOT possible, and delaying the game is just wasting everyone's time.
The situation isn't quite as grim in terms of forcing the loss on the other team in NS2, only the command stations/hives need to be killed. However, in many cases even that can drag out if the opponent doesn't at least scale back resistance to your attempts to end the game. In the same way, victory can be a frustrating waste of time in NS2 if the opposing team want's it to be. And consequently, it's good manners to concede defeat if you are sure your team has lost, rather than wasting the winning team's time.
I'd argue that in many cases this SHOULD extend to public servers, as it does in Star Craft. I respect that other players feel differently however. The only thing I don't respect is when others have no tolerance for my opinion, or assume they are taking the moral high ground because they waste my time in a game. I'm not going to recycle the IPs on my team if there are people that do want to play the game out. I'm not going to intentionally sabotage you. But if the majority of the team DOES feel the game is already over, and they're tired of drawing it out, it would be polite of you to go along with the crowd, even if normally you'd be inclined to stick it out till the bitter end.
I can just see half a pub already responding: "Nah, u just mad bro. U mad cuz u bad. Why did u F4, rage-quit lolol, little girl lol." And then some admin kicks you because you don't want to join what they call "a game" xD .
Anyway, I completely agree with the above myself :-) .
<!--quoteo(post=2039066:date=Dec 2 2012, 10:55 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Dec 2 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just glad GG is limited to gaming. Imagine watching a football game and every time the third quarter rolled around people from the losing team would just walk off the field. Or watching MMA and seeing the player tap out of every match "GG I'm glad I got out before you hurt me"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Imagine a football game where if you were up 3 points over your opponent you got 3 times more players on the field. Games are an entirely different universe than most sports. There is a very realistic point where in many cases it's no longer possible to come back unless your opponent literally starts having a stroke and randomly mashing keys.
<!--quoteo(post=2039066:date=Dec 2 2012, 10:55 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Dec 2 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just glad GG is limited to gaming. Imagine watching a football game and every time the third quarter rolled around people from the losing team would just walk off the field. Or watching MMA and seeing the player tap out of every match "GG I'm glad I got out before you hurt me"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Also, you're talking about timed matches where the team/person with the highest score after a pre-determined time is the winner. It's just a totally inapplicable analogy I'm afraid! I view conceding more like tapping the floor in judo when your opponent has you in a strangle hold. The main difference there is that in NS2, at least for aliens attacking marine base, the marine windpipe is made of steel, and it takes aeons to actually strangle them :) How to draw out an analogy one step too far :)
<!--quoteo(post=2039149:date=Dec 3 2012, 03:41 AM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Dec 3 2012, 03:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I view conceding more like tapping the floor in judo when your opponent has you in a strangle hold.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No man, it's not over until you black out. If you tap out, you're taking the fun of the other person. He has the right to black you out when he's won the match.
Think about what would happen if you get out of the strangle hold. It's totally doable, those are the matches that you live for and what makes judo so awesome. Moreover, if you attempt to tap out, a referee should put you back in the strangle hold, because it's not over - or make you leave so he can put someone else in the strangle hold if you don't want to be in it.
While you're in a strangle hold, you're still playing. It's like practice, the same as before you were in the strangle hold. Some people also have fun while in it.
I'm not sure you've ever been in a fight..... Forcing a person to tap out is one of the best ways to win, because you are breaking them, most fighters will slip into unconsciousness before giving up and showing weakness. But if in every fight someone tapped out it would loss meaning. Watch some MMA guy gets in a lock and is getting the crap beat out of him does he tap out,NO, he awkwardly hits back and looks for a way to turn the tables. There is a satisfaction I get when I see the number 1 or 2 player on the other team quit "lol your best player abandoned you".
Someone said GG originated in chess yeah your right, but chess has a fixed outcome called "checkmate" and it isn't really called until both players see it. If your brilliant enough to play 19 moves ahead you may see a check mate but I only play 3 moves ahead so I'm gonna need to play 16 more moves before I see it myself.
<!--quoteo(post=2039178:date=Dec 3 2012, 07:26 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Dec 3 2012, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No man, it's not over until you black out. If you tap out, you're taking the fun of the other person. He has the right to black you out when he's won the match.
Think about what would happen if you get out of the strangle hold. It's totally doable, those are the matches that you live for and what makes judo so awesome. Moreover, if you attempt to tap out, a referee should put you back in the strangle hold, because it's not over - or make you leave so he can put someone else in the strangle hold if you don't want to be in it.
While you're in a strangle hold, you're still playing. It's like practice, the same as before you were in the strangle hold. Some people also have fun while in it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2037659:date=Nov 30 2012, 03:43 AM:name=godrifle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (godrifle @ Nov 30 2012, 03:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There seems to be a disconnect from forum-goers that understand when an F4 is needed, and the pub players that want to stay until the very bitter end. I've been shouted at and called a retard for recycling. Hitting F4 or recycling is an accepted practice, especially in this game when a team can be deadlocked into one or two rooms, and stay that way for the next ten minutes. Not everyone has time to game; and the best part of the game is when there is exciting conflict, so starting a fresh round is in everyone's best interests (imo).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd be in the group calling you a retard :P .. the very best games I've played have been from coming back from seemingly hopeless situations.. sometimes it just takes something small to turn the tide.. but when that something small happens, you see a completley different gameplay from pubbers ;) everyone realises the only way to come back is to work together .. you see gorges healing, a gorge running with a squad of skulks to do spot healing
Admittedly, it's harder for marines to comeback .. but 1 marine managing to get out unnoticed to pop up a phase gate .. marines running through and shotgun a hive ..
Anyhow, as someone else posted.. communication is the key .. if you pipe up 'this is over, recyling!' .. I'd have you banned from every server if I'd the ability .. it's not upto you to make that decision for everyone else .. I enjoy the last stand.. I enjoy the feeling of 'if only they got distracted for a few min, we might be able to sneak xyz' ..
The only occasion I feel F4 is legit is if the other team are spawn camping for frags .. 5 onos standing over an IP waiting for a marine to spawn is a F4 occasion (likewise with marines killing eggs for an extended period while ignoring everything else)
You mentioned not everyone has the time to game .. joining another server is a valid tactic for this scenario ..
/Bal
(ps. I agree too with it not being fair cheating the victors out of the blackout ;) )
I mean Starcrafts "gg" has evolved in pro games. In this context its totally fine because first its pros knowing when they definetely lost and you wont see it until the very end. And second, in tournaments you wont give up if it doesnt make sense, because a loss is a loss you wont risk.
But in public games and low level gaming its not so definite. And there are a lot of people just wussying out that cant lose. I wrote that already - its a compensation for a lack of confidence often. If you cant stand to lose, you give up prematurely - not because it really was lost, but because you have the feeling of still being in power of the choice to lose. If you decided by yourself you lose, than at least you got not defeated without wanting it, speaking irrationally ;D
And thats the simple reason why you shouldnt do it - you are a wussy. And you will make other wussys join you. And you will now definetely lose the game, even if it would have been fun to try to win till the end. The best way to tell that you are dealing with such people is when the quitting is accompanied by blaming others for mistakes in the game ;)
<!--quoteo(post=2039229:date=Dec 3 2012, 09:55 AM:name=dissection)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dissection @ Dec 3 2012, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best way to tell that you are dealing with such people is when the quitting is accompanied by blaming others for mistakes in the game ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the whole, I tend to agree with your comments. BUT: sometimes you really do lose because there was no teamwork (and sometimes that's really not your fault!). I have lost count of the number of pub games in which I've desperately been trying to get people to work together, communicate, cover each other and so on... only to get stony silence, people running off on their own with no coherent plan or communication. I used to try to rally those teams into shape to give us a glimmer of hope of success. Now I tend to find a new server. Honestly, there's no fun in winning on a totally rubbish team because the opposition is even worse, and there's no fun in losing on a terrible team, because there's no teamplay and 'community spirit.' But then it's not a case of F4/recycle anyway, it's a case of find better players to play with!
<!--quoteo(post=2037901:date=Dec 1 2012, 02:56 AM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Dec 1 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tldr; - With a vote system, you get the best of all the options on how to handle a losing situation. With F4, you include selfish and trollish options.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmmmm am I not a fan of voting systems as I think it creates an impersonal feel to the pub community and breeds bad behaviour. Players should socialise each other, not legally compel each other.
If ejecting a comm by vote wasn't in some cases truly necessary I would consider that feature really silly.
People should deal with people, not with systems laid over people. It may be more expensive in the short term (wasted games/time due to people being socialised) but it breeds a better and more robust community in the long run.
Comments
Most sports are designed in a way that you can come back pretty quickly if the opposing team makes even a small mistake. Most RTS games are not. People also play for the score difference in a league (e.g. in soccer, the team with the better goal difference advances to playoffs when the points are equal).
In sports, there are also fans and advertisers who are watching and demand entertainment, whether their team is winning or losing. Walking off the field would hurt sales of merchandise, tickets, etc.
The metaphor is almost completely inapplicable.
Competitive players can concede defeat to move onto the next round in a competitive match, it's not considered unprofessional. I believe the tradition originates in chess, but it was solidified as a major component of competitive gaming in Star Craft. Because the elimination rules of Star Craft are that every structure must be destroyed in order for a loss to be systemically counted against the opponent, it's often frustrating to try to "end" a game that you have definitely won. Consequently, it's considered bad manners to not concede defeat until the last structure is destroyed because there are OBVIOUS points where a comeback is NOT possible, and delaying the game is just wasting everyone's time.
The situation isn't quite as grim in terms of forcing the loss on the other team in NS2, only the command stations/hives need to be killed. However, in many cases even that can drag out if the opponent doesn't at least scale back resistance to your attempts to end the game. In the same way, victory can be a frustrating waste of time in NS2 if the opposing team want's it to be. And consequently, it's good manners to concede defeat if you are sure your team has lost, rather than wasting the winning team's time.
I'd argue that in many cases this SHOULD extend to public servers, as it does in Star Craft. I respect that other players feel differently however. The only thing I don't respect is when others have no tolerance for my opinion, or assume they are taking the moral high ground because they waste my time in a game. I'm not going to recycle the IPs on my team if there are people that do want to play the game out. I'm not going to intentionally sabotage you. But if the majority of the team DOES feel the game is already over, and they're tired of drawing it out, it would be polite of you to go along with the crowd, even if normally you'd be inclined to stick it out till the bitter end.
Anyway, I completely agree with the above myself :-) .
Imagine a football game where if you were up 3 points over your opponent you got 3 times more players on the field. Games are an entirely different universe than most sports. There is a very realistic point where in many cases it's no longer possible to come back unless your opponent literally starts having a stroke and randomly mashing keys.
Also, you're talking about timed matches where the team/person with the highest score after a pre-determined time is the winner. It's just a totally inapplicable analogy I'm afraid!
I view conceding more like tapping the floor in judo when your opponent has you in a strangle hold. The main difference there is that in NS2, at least for aliens attacking marine base, the marine windpipe is made of steel, and it takes aeons to actually strangle them :)
How to draw out an analogy one step too far :)
Roo
No man, it's not over until you black out. If you tap out, you're taking the fun of the other person. He has the right to black you out when he's won the match.
Think about what would happen if you get out of the strangle hold. It's totally doable, those are the matches that you live for and what makes judo so awesome. Moreover, if you attempt to tap out, a referee should put you back in the strangle hold, because it's not over - or make you leave so he can put someone else in the strangle hold if you don't want to be in it.
While you're in a strangle hold, you're still playing. It's like practice, the same as before you were in the strangle hold. Some people also have fun while in it.
Someone said GG originated in chess yeah your right, but chess has a fixed outcome called "checkmate" and it isn't really called until both players see it. If your brilliant enough to play 19 moves ahead you may see a check mate but I only play 3 moves ahead so I'm gonna need to play 16 more moves before I see it myself.
Think about what would happen if you get out of the strangle hold. It's totally doable, those are the matches that you live for and what makes judo so awesome. Moreover, if you attempt to tap out, a referee should put you back in the strangle hold, because it's not over - or make you leave so he can put someone else in the strangle hold if you don't want to be in it.
While you're in a strangle hold, you're still playing. It's like practice, the same as before you were in the strangle hold. Some people also have fun while in it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, love it :)
I'd be in the group calling you a retard :P .. the very best games I've played have been from coming back from seemingly hopeless situations.. sometimes it just takes something small to turn the tide.. but when that something small happens, you see a completley different gameplay from pubbers ;) everyone realises the only way to come back is to work together .. you see gorges healing, a gorge running with a squad of skulks to do spot healing
Admittedly, it's harder for marines to comeback .. but 1 marine managing to get out unnoticed to pop up a phase gate .. marines running through and shotgun a hive ..
Anyhow, as someone else posted.. communication is the key .. if you pipe up 'this is over, recyling!' .. I'd have you banned from every server if I'd the ability .. it's not upto you to make that decision for everyone else .. I enjoy the last stand.. I enjoy the feeling of 'if only they got distracted for a few min, we might be able to sneak xyz' ..
The only occasion I feel F4 is legit is if the other team are spawn camping for frags .. 5 onos standing over an IP waiting for a marine to spawn is a F4 occasion (likewise with marines killing eggs for an extended period while ignoring everything else)
You mentioned not everyone has the time to game .. joining another server is a valid tactic for this scenario ..
/Bal
(ps. I agree too with it not being fair cheating the victors out of the blackout ;) )
Id rather taunt the other teams bad playing than admit defeat.
Ive played many games where someones admitted defeat, f4'd only for their team to go on to win once they learnt to play as a team.
But in public games and low level gaming its not so definite. And there are a lot of people just wussying out that cant lose. I wrote that already - its a compensation for a lack of confidence often. If you cant stand to lose, you give up prematurely - not because it really was lost, but because you have the feeling of still being in power of the choice to lose. If you decided by yourself you lose, than at least you got not defeated without wanting it, speaking irrationally ;D
And thats the simple reason why you shouldnt do it - you are a wussy. And you will make other wussys join you. And you will now definetely lose the game, even if it would have been fun to try to win till the end. The best way to tell that you are dealing with such people is when the quitting is accompanied by blaming others for mistakes in the game ;)
On the whole, I tend to agree with your comments. BUT: sometimes you really do lose because there was no teamwork (and sometimes that's really not your fault!). I have lost count of the number of pub games in which I've desperately been trying to get people to work together, communicate, cover each other and so on... only to get stony silence, people running off on their own with no coherent plan or communication.
I used to try to rally those teams into shape to give us a glimmer of hope of success. Now I tend to find a new server. Honestly, there's no fun in winning on a totally rubbish team because the opposition is even worse, and there's no fun in losing on a terrible team, because there's no teamplay and 'community spirit.'
But then it's not a case of F4/recycle anyway, it's a case of find better players to play with!
Roo
Mmmmm am I not a fan of voting systems as I think it creates an impersonal feel to the pub community and breeds bad behaviour. Players should socialise each other, not legally compel each other.
If ejecting a comm by vote wasn't in some cases truly necessary I would consider that feature really silly.
People should deal with people, not with systems laid over people. It may be more expensive in the short term (wasted games/time due to people being socialised) but it breeds a better and more robust community in the long run.