where's the atmosphere?

Amb

Let's look @ the game for a second first.

Settings: space-station / spaceship / industrial complex
situation: contact lost, crews missing, marines to investigate

So basically the game is an reenactment of James Cameron's 1984 blockbuster "Aliens" and yet the NS2 maps don't reflect anything remotely like it. All the lights are still on, there are no dead bodies lying around, no blood staines, hardly any knocked over furnitures, no bullet holes, no signs of struggle what so ever prior to the marines' arrival. NS2 should have the exact same atmosphere as Dead Space, but it doesn't. Even NS1 had more atmospheric maps, remember ns_bast, ns_nothing, ns_machina, ns_ayumi? And what happen to those eery music and ambient noise we had back in the NS1 days? Remember the deep chimes? The sound of metal grinding in the distance?

Please UWE, work on it!!!

Shrimm

well there arn't decals in the game so that explains bullet holes not being dotted around. Also I do believe all the maps are part of the same complex currently, except veil i think. So non of the maps are actually on a space station or ship. As to the situation you discribed. There isn't actually much lore to NS2 (unfortunately) I don't think the maps really go into minor details like crew missing etc.

oh and also, two new maps being worked on are called descent, and discovery. Which makes me think these are the upper levels of the complex and descent is obviously a lower level and discovery is where they found the aliens? just a thought, maybe more connection to the story of the games atmosphere will come with those maps.

Emoo

The devlopers have said before that they want to avoid gore, so you'll never see anything like dead space. But certainly some more eriee maps like Nothing, Lost and Machina would be amazing. Hopefully there also working on the ambient sounds as well, they were one of the major factors to atmosphere in NS and disappointingly seem much reduced in NS2, hopefully its just a lack of time reason and not an active choice to have less ambient sounds.

Fappuchino

Yep, they have it so easy to make some nice ambiance changes, but most of the proponents are met by, "Competitive game, bro".

Emoo

<!--quoteo(post=2038361:date=Dec 1 2012, 03:03 PM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Dec 1 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Competitive game, bro".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm sure we can have both. Hell ambient sounds could give advatages in areas, think of running through loud heavy machinery as a skulk so the marines can't hear you running behind them. Would be more intresting then just silence in every room.

What I wouldn't want to see is sounds picked client side, if an ambient sound goes off everyone should hear it at the same time.

EDIT: typo

RaZDaZ

StarCraft 2 pits 5 workers and a primary structure on opposite sides of a specific strategic location. Yeah, that happens a lot in war you know. Although I would like to see more ambience, such as the primary hive location of aliens having the lights off and some tears on the walls and machinery but not the entire map/complex.

reasa

There is a serious lack of spaceship maps that were just awesome in NS1.

NS2 needs its own version of Bast and Nancy and Eon. Some of the most iconic NS maps.

I agree with the sentiment of this thread. NS2 is lacking those thrilling sci-fi spaceship levels that epitomize the "feel" of them game for many players.

<!--quoteo(post=2038361:date=Dec 1 2012, 11:03 AM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Dec 1 2012, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yep, they have it so easy to make some nice ambiance changes, but most of the proponents are met by, "Competitive game, bro".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That’s just dumb. NS never was and never will be a viable "competitive" game. The play style is too unique and the community is too small.

Catering map designs to a non-existent "competitive" class is simply foolish.
I really, really, really, hope NS2 does not get overly wrapped up in catering to the loud screeching overly spregy wheels of the incredibly small “competitive” community. It will sink this game faster than the titanic.

Atmosphere and creative gameplay are what made NS1 a hit.

BentRing

Sorry your atmosphere got covered up by all the infestation. :)

reasa

<!--quoteo(post=2038387:date=Dec 1 2012, 12:55 PM:name=BentRing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BentRing @ Dec 1 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry your atmosphere got covered up by all the infestation. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

?

I think infestation adds a great deal to the atmosphere, unless I'm missing something here?

KwisatzHaderach

I don't agree!
Firstly, did you make that Aliens setting up, or was that mentioned in any way by the devs to be the "official" backround? Scatter the map with corpses and blood stains? Please NO! More gore, doesn't equal more atmosphere for everyone...
Maybe the stations were left in an orderly manner after it was obvious they are going to be under Khara attack? Why does everything always have to go according to the book? I mean, the Kharra start out on each map each round and have to fight for their territory, so how does it make sense to make the impression the stations have already been overrun?
Also UWE made it clear that they don't want one side to be the evil side - an attitude I very much appreciate, the game is called NATURAL SELECTION after all. Now showing the whole station slaughtered by aliens sorta indicates where the meanies and where the goodies are.

I would welcome more lore, but not in this way. I like the rather neutral, still very atmospheric playing fields.

Fappuchino

<!--quoteo(post=2038391:date=Dec 1 2012, 09:10 AM:name=KwisatzHaderach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KwisatzHaderach @ Dec 1 2012, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't agree!
Firstly, did you make that Aliens setting up, or was that mentioned in any way by the devs to be the "official" backround? Scatter the map with corpses and blood stains? Please NO! More gore, doesn't equal more atmosphere for everyone...
Maybe the stations were left in an orderly manner after it was obvious they are going to be under Khara attack? Why does everything always have to go according to the book? I mean, the Kharra start out on each map each round and have to fight for their territory, so how does it make sense to make the impression the stations have already been overrun?
Also UWE made it clear that they don't want one side to be the evil side - an attitude I very much appreciate, the game is called NATURAL SELECTION after all. Now showing the whole station slaughtered by aliens sorta indicates where the meanies and where the goodies are.

I would welcome more lore, but not in this way. I like the rather neutral, still very atmospheric playing fields.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you should take the OP's examples at face value, he/she is pointing out how Natural Selection seems to be unaware of its source material. It doesn't honor its inspirations as it should, and unlike, say, Left 4 Dead, it doesn't even bother telling a story through the game world.

This is the infuriating aspect of the NS community: Everyone treats the game in an extremely clinical fashion.

But it always boils down to how "immersion is always eventually lost". Sigh.

*Typo

Emoo

The back story actually explains the lack of bodies really well. The Kharra's main form is the bactirum infestation and they only develop into larger forms (skulks, gorges etc) when threatened. So upon discovering an infestion of bactirum a station would be evacuated, leaving the bactrium well alone. Then send in the TSF to do the clean up, which as the bactirum is now threatend prompts the growth of the larger creatures.

Edit: TSF now not the TSA :P

Fappuchino

<!--quoteo(post=2038398:date=Dec 1 2012, 09:30 AM:name=Emoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Emoo @ Dec 1 2012, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The back story actually explains the lack of bodies really well. The Kharra's main form is the bactirum infestation and they only develop into larger forms (skulks, gorges etc) when threatened. So upon discovering an infestion of bactirum a station would be evacuated, leaving the bactrium well alone. Then send in the TSF to do the clean up, which as the bactirum is now threatend prompts the growth of the larger creatures.

Edit: TSF now not the TSA :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought about that, how the future is so efficient that everyone gets sent home packing the minute the "Kharaa" (hokiest fake name ever) appear. Still, the lack of any evidence of previous human presence it hard to believe. They wouldn't evecuate everything if they didn't have solid proof of something bad happening, ie: People getting chewed.

Emoo

<!--quoteo(post=2038401:date=Dec 1 2012, 05:35 PM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Dec 1 2012, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought about that, how the future is so efficient that everyone gets sent home packing the minute the "Kharaa" (hokiest fake name ever) appear. Still, the lack of any evidence of previous human presence it hard to believe. They wouldn't evecuate everything if they didn't have solid proof of something bad happening, ie: People getting chewed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

They all know what the Kharaa are, they are a well documented threat in the backstory. So upon discovering a hive (which if not threatned will happily just sit there growing) it's reported and the station is evacuated in an orderly manner. So except for screw ups the infestation of a station would not lead to mass chaos and death.

Squeal_Like_A_Pig

--One of the current maps in development, and the next one slated for public release, is Descent, which is set on a space station.

--Regarding blood and dead bodies, we've always stated, since the early days of NS1, that we were not making a gory horror style game. There are plenty of those kinds of games already (Dead Space as one example) and we've always wanted to focus on achieving atmosphere through other methods, such as the infestation, power going out, sounds etc.

--Simon, our sound guy has actually been working on some ambient soundscapes for some of the maps which are creepy and atmospheric.

--We do have some evidence of destruction in the current maps, but I agree there could be more. Part of the reason there isn't more is that we only have a limited amount of resources to create all the assets for the maps, and adding additional versions of the props in a destroyed state just takes more time.

--bullet hole decals, explosion impact crater decals, etc. will all be able to be added once we get the technology to add decals into the game.

Cory

Mestaritonttu

One minor note: More ventilation going through rooms. In Veil, the vents under nano are great, since you can hear the aliens run past you below you. Could be very creepy if you add it in a "real room" somewhere.

EDIT: Lets add a mechanic to that - a room with a hollow space underneath the floor, the floor made out of tiles that can be opened by biting or shooting at them. Now that's a deadly whack-a-mole. :D

dissection

From what i have seen of the game till now, it is the athmosphere I like.

I dont know what your definition of athmosphere is, though. If it is gore and destruction, that is not similar to mine. I like stuff like the noise the hive makes when being destroyed - or the way the lighting works here. Crawling through dark shafts. Leaping out of a dark corner. The way the cone of the flashlight looks. I think the athmosphere is fine. Although it borrows from Alien, it isnt an alien game. (This movie was such a milestone that basically everything to do with aliens somehow borrows from it) You could even say its more Starcraft, because the cysts and the creepspread, or the whip - that basically are things they didnt really invent for this game as the first ones ;)

stickyboot

NS1 had some simple blood effects, and it really added a lot. When you mow through a few aliens, things get messy! You get stuff on the walls and on your gun. It wasn't over the top, but it did add some grit to the experience, and gave players arriving in a room some kind of idea of what was going on a few moments earlier.

In fact, diving back into NS1 recently, one of the first things I noticed was the excellent decal work for such an old game. Bullet holes and blood!

I realize you are still working on the decal tech, but I do hope you revisit your opinion on gore with respect to blood decals.

CrushaK

I appreciate that there is no gore and the game has an actual clean feel to it. The alien lifeforms also don't look frightening or overly aggressive so that you can easily identify with them as your team mates or other players in general. And you wouldn't want gore in a game with such cute creatures like Gorges anyway. ;)

The only thing (and I probably stated that a few times already) I would appreciate to have more of for atmosphere would be more play with the dynamic lighting and darkness.
Forcing aliens to sit in a fully lit room until the marines eventually go there and build a power node (to 100%!) so that the aliens can destroy it is killing quite a bit of the atmosphere for me. The red light on the infestation gives a lot more ambience for aliens.

Hence why aliens should have also some control over the lights in a room instead of reserving that control exclusively for the marines.
Spreading infestation over a power node socket (regardless of being unbuilt or not) should force the room into red emergency lighting with a very low blinking frequency.
I.e. the room should be fully unlit by default with pure darkness and fade the emergency lighting in and out over a time span of ~2 seconds per blending in and out and with ~2 seconds of complete darkness in between. So it's actually possible for marines to still see something but forces them to use their flashlights to be on the save side.
Once they destroy the infestation over the power node socket, the room will stay in permanent emergency lighting again without the blackout intervals.

Swiftspear

<!--quoteo(post=2038386:date=Dec 1 2012, 11:47 AM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 1 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a serious lack of spaceship maps that were just awesome in NS1.

NS2 needs its own version of Bast and Nancy and Eon. Some of the most iconic NS maps.

I agree with the sentiment of this thread. NS2 is lacking those thrilling sci-fi spaceship levels that epitomize the "feel" of them game for many players.



That’s just dumb. NS never was and never will be a viable "competitive" game. The play style is too unique and the community is too small.

Catering map designs to a non-existent "competitive" class is simply foolish.
I really, really, really, hope NS2 does not get overly wrapped up in catering to the loud screeching overly spregy wheels of the incredibly small “competitive” community. It will sink this game faster than the titanic.

Atmosphere and creative gameplay are what made NS1 a hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Our in the NS1 era had a higher density of competitive players vs non-competitive players than almost any AAA game ever gets to. As small games go, NS2 is a competitive game.

The UWE team has stated that they don't want NS2 to be "scary". I'm not sure that was the right direction to go in, but they're pretty clearly wanting to cater to the competitive community at least partially, and personally that serves me well. I don't get "drawn in" by the stuff most scary games try to do. I'm completely and totally desensitized to blood and body's laying around the floor in games. I really just want a deep and dynamic gameplay experience. I want fun skirmishes between marines and skulks, I want compelling strategic decisions on the part of commanders.

Personally I feel a lot of games, like deadspace, end up being a lot worse than they could have been because they focus too heavily in one direction and loose sight of the fact that a game is a sum of it's parts, not a race to a specific goal.

Neoken

I have to admit I miss the sounds/music of NS1. It really did wonders to create such a distinct atmosphere of isolated space environments, and general eeriness.

Don't really need blood or gore though. That doesn't creep me out anyway.

OnosFactory

Hokeyest fake name ever?

Sorry, just where does one find the Kharaa's 'True Name' ... or have you been playing to much Planescape: Torment?

nailertn

Why did the devs decide against making the game darker when both the background and the gameplay lends itself so well to that style? A few sterile areas can be quite creepy if they have their matching dark and gritty places for contrast. The current map pool is a little too heavy on the clean side except for Mineshaft. In your face gore and bodies littered everywhere is dull, but some at just the right places could go a long way. (Besides why aren't there decals in a released game? Wolfenstein had them 20 years ago. At least implement static ones, they aren't much more than another texture layer with alpha channel.)

And easier identification with aliens? I don't see that design goal manifest anywhere in the game, nor do I see a reason why it should. People do play alien in AVP / zerg in Starcraft / Genestealers in Warhammer / etc. If anything portraying them as the bad guys adds to their appeal. The devs go all the way to differentiate the two races so why would they take a neutral stance on this most basic level?

KuddlyKalli

<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->NS2 is on a new engine (Spark) developed in-house. As such there are priorities regarding which features to add. Decals will be added when there is time, as will other things like proper transparency. Even Max has his limits; overclocking him further could be fatal!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

Amb

Let's be real here, the map design we have at the moment in NS2 makes absolute no sense. Every map is brand spanking new, every wall is spotless, every floor is polished, every facility looks like it's ready for its grand opening. Hell, my bedroom is 10x messier than all of the NS2 maps combined. We are suppose to believe that these facilities were evacuated/deserted, or has lost contact with, whatever the case may be, because of an alien infestation?

some of the classic NS1 maps combined with its ambience/soundtrack made the game creepy as hell, please UWE, work on it!
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88bg7xofroo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88bg7xofroo</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTRpA1tkLKE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTRpA1tkLKE</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjTrB0BQfZA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjTrB0BQfZA</a>

Techercizer

<!--quoteo(post=2038657:date=Dec 1 2012, 11:16 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Dec 1 2012, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's be real here, the map design we have at the moment in NS2 makes absolute no sense. Every map is brand spanking new, every wall is spotless, every floor is polished, every facility looks like it's ready for its grand opening. Hell, my bedroom is 10x messier than all of the NS2 maps combined. We are suppose to believe that these facilities were evacuated/deserted, or has lost contact with, whatever the case may be, because of an alien infestation?

some of the classic NS1 maps combined with its ambience/soundtrack made the game creepy as hell, please UWE, work on it!
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88bg7xofroo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88bg7xofroo</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTRpA1tkLKE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTRpA1tkLKE</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjTrB0BQfZA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjTrB0BQfZA</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nanites. Why would they ever be damaged or dirty? Your idea makes far less sense than the status quo.

Those videos look far too low resolution to be compared to NS2's graphics. I don't think those textures could pull off clean and spotless if they tried.

Swiftspear

<!--quoteo(post=2038622:date=Dec 1 2012, 09:19 PM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Dec 1 2012, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(Besides why aren't there decals in a released game? Wolfenstein had them 20 years ago. At least implement static ones, they aren't much more than another texture layer with alpha channel.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because of the way NS2 has been handled as an indie game, it's release build is sort of half full release half beta. There's still a lot of things they need to polish up, but they had to release when they did because they needed the money to start to flow, and the game was very playable at the time, it was just missing some of the bells and whistles we're used to from AAA games. UWE is not a AAA company, they needed more time to get that stuff in.

Amb

<!--quoteo(post=2038680:date=Dec 1 2012, 11:34 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Dec 1 2012, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nanites. Why would they ever be damaged or dirty? Your idea makes far less sense than the status quo.

Those videos look far too low resolution to be compared to NS2's graphics. I don't think those textures could pull off clean and spotless if they tried.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

clearly written by someone who's never played NS1.

Kuiki

In my opinion these are elements wich could improve atmossphere:

- decrease the light intensity of the non-powered rooms by 40%-50% so its darker but not unfair for marines
- add some flickering lights in non-powered rooms
- individual sound profils for the tech point rooms on the maps so that you can say in wich room you are when you here it
- add grundy sounds when marines walk over plattforms and other metal walks
- let the hives randomly scream from time to time so that marines can hear the echo from hell :-)
- add colour correction and fog to infested areas, maybe in a brown yellow tone, with higher contrast and less saturation :-)
- let some of these particle creeps from the hive sometimes appear on infested areas
- maybe add randomly generate infastation props like fungus or some slime elements on the infestation.
- and destructable props likes pipes, wich spits out steam when gets destroyed, lamps wich can be shoot out, and cable and other stuff falling down or hang around when you deytroy roofplates :-)


this is my wish list what can improve atmossphere :-)

Neoken

<!--quoteo(post=2038657:date=Dec 2 2012, 12:16 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Dec 2 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88bg7xofroo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88bg7xofroo</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Man, I missed this soundtrack. So damn good.

SaniK

<!--quoteo(post=2038386:date=Dec 1 2012, 08:47 AM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 1 2012, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a serious lack of spaceship maps that were just awesome in NS1.

NS2 needs its own version of Bast and Nancy and Eon. Some of the most iconic NS maps.

I agree with the sentiment of this thread. NS2 is lacking those thrilling sci-fi spaceship levels that epitomize the "feel" of them game for many players.



That’s just dumb. NS never was and never will be a viable "competitive" game. The play style is too unique and the community is too small.

Catering map designs to a non-existent "competitive" class is simply foolish.
I really, really, really, hope NS2 does not get overly wrapped up in catering to the loud screeching overly spregy wheels of the incredibly small “competitive” community. It will sink this game faster than the titanic.

Atmosphere and creative gameplay are what made NS1 a hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The titanic actually took several hours to fully sink. :)