<!--quoteo(post=2046691:date=Dec 16 2012, 04:46 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Dec 16 2012, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When Flayra initially conceived of power, he had this glorious Company of Heroes style vision with territories linking to each other with modifiers and whatnot. Once he realised that wasn't such a smart/viable idea, he shoehorned power into the game with two functions - to provide a "win button" and to create light/dark gameplay. The "win button" is a poor cover-up of a wider problem to do with ending games and subtracts from the interesting decisions about what to structures to go for et cetera. The light/dark gameplay never really got going because the opportunity cost of chewing powernodes down has always been too large.
What we're left with is a watered down mechanic which is a waste of time except for the odd explosive, sudden and often cheesy impact on a game. We've discussed this ad nauseum in the beta stages and have seen a million iterations of power, each with its own set of problems. First the HP is too low, then it's too high, then it needs tweaking for the onos attack, then it needs welders to repair, then it needs to be built slower, then it needs to be built faster, then a 18sec cooldown needs to be introduced for rebuilding, then it needs to be adjusted for different damage types, then they need to be on to begin with, then they need clearer boundary delineation, then mappers have to play with area zones, then we need to invent powerpacks, then powerpacks need to be removed again... Basically, power has a set of fundamental problems and disadvantages that haven't been properly acknowledged and each response has failed to address the problem or created a new one instead. The only solution that kept power in the game without having a huge negative or broken effect on the game has been to marginalise them more and more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2046691:date=Dec 16 2012, 04:46 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Dec 16 2012, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When Flayra initially conceived of power, he had this glorious Company of Heroes style vision with territories linking to each other with modifiers and whatnot. Once he realised that wasn't such a smart/viable idea, he shoehorned power into the game with two functions - to provide a "win button" and to create light/dark gameplay. The "win button" is a poor cover-up of a wider problem to do with ending games and subtracts from the interesting decisions about what to structures to go for et cetera. The light/dark gameplay never really got going because the opportunity cost of chewing powernodes down has always been too large.
What we're left with is a watered down mechanic which is a waste of time except for the odd explosive, sudden and often cheesy impact on a game. We've discussed this ad nauseum in the beta stages and have seen a million iterations of power, each with its own set of problems. First the HP is too low, then it's too high, then it needs tweaking for the onos attack, then it needs welders to repair, then it needs to be built slower, then it needs to be built faster, then a 18sec cooldown needs to be introduced for rebuilding, then it needs to be adjusted for different damage types, then they need to be on to begin with, then they need clearer boundary delineation, then mappers have to play with area zones, then we need to invent powerpacks, then powerpacks need to be removed again... Basically, power has a set of fundamental problems and disadvantages that haven't been properly acknowledged and each response has failed to address the problem or created a new one instead. The only solution that kept power in the game without having a huge negative or broken effect on the game has been to marginalise them more and more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
to me the logical next step would be to remove power nodes completely and see where it goes.(higher marine winrates)
<!--quoteo(post=2046691:date=Dec 16 2012, 11:46 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Dec 16 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When Flayra initially conceived of power, he had this glorious Company of Heroes style vision with territories linking to each other with modifiers and whatnot. Once he realised that wasn't such a smart/viable idea, he shoehorned power into the game with two functions - to provide a "win button" and to create light/dark gameplay. The "win button" is a poor cover-up of a wider problem to do with ending games and subtracts from the interesting decisions about what to structures to go for et cetera. The light/dark gameplay never really got going because the opportunity cost of chewing powernodes down has always been too large.
What we're left with is a watered down mechanic which is a waste of time except for the odd explosive, sudden and often cheesy impact on a game. We've discussed this ad nauseum in the beta stages and have seen a million iterations of power, each with its own set of problems. First the HP is too low, then it's too high, then it needs tweaking for the onos attack, then it needs welders to repair, then it needs to be built slower, then it needs to be built faster, then a 18sec cooldown needs to be introduced for rebuilding, then it needs to be adjusted for different damage types, then they need to be on to begin with, then they need clearer boundary delineation, then mappers have to play with area zones, then we need to invent powerpacks, then powerpacks need to be removed again... Basically, power has a set of fundamental problems and disadvantages that haven't been properly acknowledged and each response has failed to address the problem or created a new one instead. The only solution that kept power in the game without having a huge negative or broken effect on the game has been to marginalise them more and more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep this is pretty much how I feel. I don't think the structure-powering mechanic improves the game in any measurable way, we've tried every variant of it there is by now. The lights going on and off is cool, but power nodes are not necessary to accomplish that like I mentioned in the first reply.
The bug that sometimes doesn't alert the marine comm that the main base powernode is under attack NEEDS to be squished. Quite a few games I have had where I had NO IDEA the power was out till I look over and see it dark and filled with skulks. Thanks alert system.
I guess I do hate it when I'm playing on the Marines and we lose a power node and then a base because of it. It seems to only work with most of the team rushing it or when the Marines are distracted during a heavy push on a hive. I don't hate it enough to remove it though, as those nodes are durable even without nano armor or a blocking structure.
It would be interesting to let the Marines commander choose where to put the 'I Win' button power node while reducing it's overall health and armor though. There's already a set 'room' area you can tie it to, and it might switch things up a little more.
Alien commander has his cyst placing minigame, marine commander has his placing power nodes at all locations at the start minigame. Both vital to prevent them from gettimg bored! Oh yea can't forget the drawing minigame for spectators, helps forget that there is no first person spectate. Now all we need is to be able to play tetris between levels when they are precaching :>
If anything, their impact on the game should be mostly aesthetic. Without power, the lights don't work. Nothing more.
Maybe the original concept was cool, but in reality it's a pain in the ass. Having a single structure that when destroyed cripples the marines so badly it should simply be renamed the 'Command Chair' and the current CC should be renamed 'Chair-that-which-devolved-from-its-superior-brethren-in-NS1'. You kill the powernode in the marine base then you more than likely have won the game.
CCs and Hives should be the only structure, that when destroyed, is a Death Knell for a team.
I believe tweaking powernodes as they are now is development time better spent elsewhere in the game. Buffing/nerfing Pnodes will either make them so tough that they will always be ignored or so weak that they will always be the #1 target because of what happens when they are destroyed.
If UWE don't want to take out Pnodes as it doesn't fit their concept of their game (please seriously consider it though) then lighting should play a bigger role. No Pnode, no lights. Buildings still work.
Flash lights, sound and possibley having the Kharaa's eyes faintly glow in the dark only when they use alien vision should be the indication death is rushing to you in a tide of serrated teethe and claws.
Having this change to Pnodes means that Marines would still want to keep the Pnodes intact otherwise their visibility is severely limited which allows the Kharaa to get within melee distance but the Marines won't lose if their Pnode goes down. This also changes up the dynamic and 'issue' between one side that predominantly melees to kill versus a side that shoots to kill. Kharaa want visiblity limited, so lights off, marines want to see kharaa coming at them, so lights on.
This is another reason that Camo can be (and a thread around here says is) OP simply because if a Kharaa gets to within melee range, the marine is toast.
This idea and very small change can evolve gameplay quite drastically and can add something differennt to NS2 without detracting from other parts of the game.
If this idea were to be used then the Pnode should be destroyed easily and on the flip side be repaired easily. The current rate to destroy/repair Pnodes is such a pain that I ignore them completely as Kharaa and cringe when I have to rebuild one as a marine.
Thank you for your time, please seriously consider changing Power Nodes!
Eh, had a thread a while back comparing win conditions. Basically a power node kind of mirrors egg lock in it's own weird way. Are either of them fun? Not really. But it's something you need to think about as commander to avoid it. (I.E. making it harder to just happen through either blocking or shift eggs. Both cost T.Res as well.)
EDIT:
I'm not implying egg lock or power nodes are <i>actual</i> win conditions, just a side effect of a winning condition. I guess you could argue that one is easier than the other, but really a power node takes forever to kill with one skulk, just as egg killing is tough with one Marine. (Without a flamethrower or GL, anyway.) A team all attacking one massively important structure makes it easier to coordinate, which is probably a good thing for pubbers on both sides. It isn't always the best idea to go directly for the power node either. (Such as hitting an Obs for no beacon.)
Oh man.... having the freedom to give feedback to a dev who actually implements some ideas is just pushing all these "this and that is terrible! Do this and that instead"-threads. It really starts to get annoying!
Regarding the topic: I like them! Especially the atmosphere when a node goes into alert mode and then down (love the sounds).
<!--quoteo(post=2047087:date=Dec 17 2012, 12:50 PM:name=no_idea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (no_idea @ Dec 17 2012, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this and that is terrible! Do this and that instead<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2045176:date=Dec 13 2012, 05:50 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Dec 13 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hidden bonuses are terrible.
Lets just remove powernodes requirement to power structures. Make them weak and turn the lights off, thats enough of a benefit that aliens will kill them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The correct way of doing it is to provide a bunch of map entities (power nodes, breakable objects, switches, elevators, etc) and to let the mapper play with them. Trying to make map entities mandatory all over the map can only go wrong.
See JimWest entities mod: <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123297&st=0&start=0" target="_blank">http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index....t=0&start=0</a>
I don't know, it was just posted by AceDude on the balance thread. I though it was relevant for the power node discussion. But it's not really a surprise that people die a lot at power nodes, it's pretty much designed for it.
Like most other people have said here, pNodes aren't implemented to where they should be. Heck, compare cysts to pNodes.
Creep provides map control and map awareness. Creep provides intel on the whereabouts of marines, where they're attacking (because most of the time at least one marine will kill a cyst to stop growth), it's required to build on for aliens and it's visually interesting. Marines always want to kill it because it's necessary to build in an area without it and denies the aliens intel.
pNodes does none of this. In fact, creep and power can oddly co-exist perfectly fine if aliens prefer ambiance lighting. Most of the time in my games, aliens actually ignore power nodes because it's a waste of time to kill them when they could be killing buildings faster or traveling else where to kill RTs/marines.
Of course, even all the above seems shallow compared to the fact it's basically an i-win button (and it's most painfully felt in tough late game battles where both sides seem evenly matched). There is nothing equivalent to this for the aliens except maybe egg-lock, but that requires a good chunk of the marine team to accomplish and losing one hive isn't the equivalent of losing the main base (and consequently the game).
(this is regards to evenly matched late game situations where Marines "march" to a hive with Exos or Arcs):
It just feels odd that marines have this doom-button while aliens don't. If 2-4 marines or an Exo with 2-3 marine escort entered a hive, you could eventually wear them down with skulk respawns (from another hive or the one under attack). Also, most of the time you'd get warning time because killing the hive takes time and taking down alien infrastructure is a valid alternative to shooting down the hive. It takes time to bring down a hive and secure it. There isn't just 1 moderate health structure guaranteed to destroy the hive, stop respawns, and kill all buildings around it. However, if an Onos or fade + 2 skulks hit the pNode, you have to send EVERYTHING to kill it, because if not the game is over.
You're not allowed to wear down the problem because the stakes are too high. If the 3 marines you send to chase away an onos headbutting the pNode becomes 3 marines vs an onos and 2 skulks, then you either beacon or lose the base. You can't wait for reinforcements to trickle in and wear down the attack.
Comments
What we're left with is a watered down mechanic which is a waste of time except for the odd explosive, sudden and often cheesy impact on a game. We've discussed this ad nauseum in the beta stages and have seen a million iterations of power, each with its own set of problems. First the HP is too low, then it's too high, then it needs tweaking for the onos attack, then it needs welders to repair, then it needs to be built slower, then it needs to be built faster, then a 18sec cooldown needs to be introduced for rebuilding, then it needs to be adjusted for different damage types, then they need to be on to begin with, then they need clearer boundary delineation, then mappers have to play with area zones, then we need to invent powerpacks, then powerpacks need to be removed again... Basically, power has a set of fundamental problems and disadvantages that haven't been properly acknowledged and each response has failed to address the problem or created a new one instead. The only solution that kept power in the game without having a huge negative or broken effect on the game has been to marginalise them more and more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://www.animated-gifs.eu/avatars-100x100-humor/0028.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Your avatar sums it up.
What we're left with is a watered down mechanic which is a waste of time except for the odd explosive, sudden and often cheesy impact on a game. We've discussed this ad nauseum in the beta stages and have seen a million iterations of power, each with its own set of problems. First the HP is too low, then it's too high, then it needs tweaking for the onos attack, then it needs welders to repair, then it needs to be built slower, then it needs to be built faster, then a 18sec cooldown needs to be introduced for rebuilding, then it needs to be adjusted for different damage types, then they need to be on to begin with, then they need clearer boundary delineation, then mappers have to play with area zones, then we need to invent powerpacks, then powerpacks need to be removed again... Basically, power has a set of fundamental problems and disadvantages that haven't been properly acknowledged and each response has failed to address the problem or created a new one instead. The only solution that kept power in the game without having a huge negative or broken effect on the game has been to marginalise them more and more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
to me the logical next step would be to remove power nodes completely and see where it goes.(higher marine winrates)
What we're left with is a watered down mechanic which is a waste of time except for the odd explosive, sudden and often cheesy impact on a game. We've discussed this ad nauseum in the beta stages and have seen a million iterations of power, each with its own set of problems. First the HP is too low, then it's too high, then it needs tweaking for the onos attack, then it needs welders to repair, then it needs to be built slower, then it needs to be built faster, then a 18sec cooldown needs to be introduced for rebuilding, then it needs to be adjusted for different damage types, then they need to be on to begin with, then they need clearer boundary delineation, then mappers have to play with area zones, then we need to invent powerpacks, then powerpacks need to be removed again... Basically, power has a set of fundamental problems and disadvantages that haven't been properly acknowledged and each response has failed to address the problem or created a new one instead. The only solution that kept power in the game without having a huge negative or broken effect on the game has been to marginalise them more and more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep this is pretty much how I feel. I don't think the structure-powering mechanic improves the game in any measurable way, we've tried every variant of it there is by now. The lights going on and off is cool, but power nodes are not necessary to accomplish that like I mentioned in the first reply.
It would be interesting to let the Marines commander choose where to put the 'I Win' button power node while reducing it's overall health and armor though. There's already a set 'room' area you can tie it to, and it might switch things up a little more.
Could be neat, or it could be horribly broken.
If anything, their impact on the game should be mostly aesthetic. Without power, the lights don't work. Nothing more.
Maybe the original concept was cool, but in reality it's a pain in the ass. Having a single structure that when destroyed cripples the marines so badly it should simply be renamed the 'Command Chair' and the current CC should be renamed 'Chair-that-which-devolved-from-its-superior-brethren-in-NS1'. You kill the powernode in the marine base then you more than likely have won the game.
CCs and Hives should be the only structure, that when destroyed, is a Death Knell for a team.
I believe tweaking powernodes as they are now is development time better spent elsewhere in the game. Buffing/nerfing Pnodes will either make them so tough that they will always be ignored or so weak that they will always be the #1 target because of what happens when they are destroyed.
If UWE don't want to take out Pnodes as it doesn't fit their concept of their game (please seriously consider it though) then lighting should play a bigger role. No Pnode, no lights. Buildings still work.
Flash lights, sound and possibley having the Kharaa's eyes faintly glow in the dark only when they use alien vision should be the indication death is rushing to you in a tide of serrated teethe and claws.
Having this change to Pnodes means that Marines would still want to keep the Pnodes intact otherwise their visibility is severely limited which allows the Kharaa to get within melee distance but the Marines won't lose if their Pnode goes down. This also changes up the dynamic and 'issue' between one side that predominantly melees to kill versus a side that shoots to kill. Kharaa want visiblity limited, so lights off, marines want to see kharaa coming at them, so lights on.
This is another reason that Camo can be (and a thread around here says is) OP simply because if a Kharaa gets to within melee range, the marine is toast.
This idea and very small change can evolve gameplay quite drastically and can add something differennt to NS2 without detracting from other parts of the game.
If this idea were to be used then the Pnode should be destroyed easily and on the flip side be repaired easily. The current rate to destroy/repair Pnodes is such a pain that I ignore them completely as Kharaa and cringe when I have to rebuild one as a marine.
Thank you for your time, please seriously consider changing Power Nodes!
EDIT:
I'm not implying egg lock or power nodes are <i>actual</i> win conditions, just a side effect of a winning condition. I guess you could argue that one is easier than the other, but really a power node takes forever to kill with one skulk, just as egg killing is tough with one Marine. (Without a flamethrower or GL, anyway.) A team all attacking one massively important structure makes it easier to coordinate, which is probably a good thing for pubbers on both sides. It isn't always the best idea to go directly for the power node either. (Such as hitting an Obs for no beacon.)
It really starts to get annoying!
Regarding the topic: I like them!
Especially the atmosphere when a node goes into alert mode and then down (love the sounds).
i agree
Lets just remove powernodes requirement to power structures. Make them weak and turn the lights off, thats enough of a benefit that aliens will kill them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
See JimWest entities mod: <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123297&st=0&start=0" target="_blank">http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index....t=0&start=0</a>
<img src="http://s13.postimage.org/4yfpljxc7/veil_4.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Creep provides map control and map awareness. Creep provides intel on the whereabouts of marines, where they're attacking (because most of the time at least one marine will kill a cyst to stop growth), it's required to build on for aliens and it's visually interesting. Marines always want to kill it because it's necessary to build in an area without it and denies the aliens intel.
pNodes does none of this. In fact, creep and power can oddly co-exist perfectly fine if aliens prefer ambiance lighting. Most of the time in my games, aliens actually ignore power nodes because it's a waste of time to kill them when they could be killing buildings faster or traveling else where to kill RTs/marines.
Of course, even all the above seems shallow compared to the fact it's basically an i-win button (and it's most painfully felt in tough late game battles where both sides seem evenly matched). There is nothing equivalent to this for the aliens except maybe egg-lock, but that requires a good chunk of the marine team to accomplish and losing one hive isn't the equivalent of losing the main base (and consequently the game).
(this is regards to evenly matched late game situations where Marines "march" to a hive with Exos or Arcs):
It just feels odd that marines have this doom-button while aliens don't. If 2-4 marines or an Exo with 2-3 marine escort entered a hive, you could eventually wear them down with skulk respawns (from another hive or the one under attack). Also, most of the time you'd get warning time because killing the hive takes time and taking down alien infrastructure is a valid alternative to shooting down the hive. It takes time to bring down a hive and secure it. There isn't just 1 moderate health structure guaranteed to destroy the hive, stop respawns, and kill all buildings around it. However, if an Onos or fade + 2 skulks hit the pNode, you have to send EVERYTHING to kill it, because if not the game is over.
You're not allowed to wear down the problem because the stakes are too high. If the 3 marines you send to chase away an onos headbutting the pNode becomes 3 marines vs an onos and 2 skulks, then you either beacon or lose the base. You can't wait for reinforcements to trickle in and wear down the attack.