We played a gather on this map back in build 237, and it's the only game I've played on Jambi so my experience is very limited, but at least it's a better representation of balance than public play. I appreciate the immense dedication and work you've put into this map, but I did run into some balance issues.
The biggest problem with the map is that it's so huge and complex. I'm not entirely sure, but after using sv_reset multiple times, it seems that Docking is always the marine start, and aliens have a random spawn between Electrical-Pipeline-Waste (am I correct on this?). The distances are colossal for both parties, but they're much more devastating for early marines without phase gates. It was a cat-and-mouse game for the first five minutes, marines trying to establish a phase gate on the northern side of the map, and the aliens trying to prevent that. The outcome of these battles pretty much decided who won the game.
The first round we played as aliens, and started from pipeline. The marines decided to get the phase gate at electrical core, and a few minutes later at organ donation, pushing our main hive, while all their attempts at trying to secure the right side of the map failed, and it took way too long for them to get back there without phase gates because of the distances. That made it easy for us to cap 4 harvesters, that they couldn't effectively harass. The main fight of the round was at organ donation, where the marines got the phase gate in the first place due to poor alien scouting caused by the confusion of a new map, something that will wear off in later games. The aliens won that match through sheer amount of resources that could be dedicated to new fade eggs. After that, it just became a 2-TP turtle, which we obviously eventually won.
The second match we played as marines, and as the aliens started in Waste, my main priority was to get a phase gate in Pipeline, which we managed to do right in the beginning. And thus the game was over. The aliens had no possibility to effectively push pipeline, especially after I built a 2nd CC and an observatory there, and all their attempts at securing a second hive at Gravity ended up with me sieging it down from Shipping.
The teams in this match were pretty evenly skilled (with maybe a slight advantage on my team's side).
I'm not entirely sure whether this is a balance problem or whether it just introduces a make-or-break scenario with securing an early phase gate, but as I have extremely limited experience of competitive play (and none of public), I would like to see if people agree with me. At least the map is much bigger and more complex than Veil, Summit and Tram, which I mainly play. Big maps tend to favour the aliens, as they can easily cap many harvesters in the early game, and after that economy starts rolling, there's no stopping it. In our second round the aliens weren't short of resources either, even though their map control was very limited, they just had nothing to spend those resources on since we denied them the second hive. The only viable mean I see for marines to secure victory, is to establish a phase gate in Pipeline, and thus denying the aliens the second hive, but because of the layout of the map, getting into Pipeline is nigh-impossible against an alien team who knows that it has to be prevented. There are so many places to make an ambush, and the distances are so huge that even a failed ambush can most probably be re-organised before the marines get into position. A phase gate in any other position on the map gives aliens way too much map control, and it's not really rational to think of a scenario where the marines are able to secure two phase gates on the different sides of the map in a competitive 6vs6 where the teams are of equal skill.
I actually liked this map most of the maps I played in the custom map tourny. Are there still anyone working on it? With some fixes, I think this is a candidate for ensl rotation.
Xtc has been doing an excellent job of trying to balance it out. If you got any suggestion please do share them with us I'll try to sink some more time into it as well.
a) Remove electrical core as a spawn point for aliens. (no rts in prox)
b) Fix cysts in pipe (so annoying to cyst in there).
c) Marines should´nt be able to shoot RT in oxy from X.
d) Fix FPS in Gravity.
e) Move bay wing a few meters south, so you can´t seige waste from the RT spot
f) There is a room from gravity to trash not textured
Those are things most people will agree upon.
However, I think there are some other ways to improve the map which would make the map even better!
I think it would be fun if aliens always spawned in pipe or waste, and if then they always had the choice to either expand left or right. So if you spawn pipe, then el.core or waste should be somewhat equally viable. If you spawn in waste, then aliens should be able to choose between pipe or gravity tech. Problem is, atm this is not equally viable. Hence I propose:
g) Move grav tech point into trash ejection and rework the room so its fitting for a hive.
h) Make el.core viable by reworking skylights (and maybe other parts) so its easier for aliens to get to from pipeline than it currently is.
i) The ventilation between oxy/x to organ makes it to easy for aliens to defend both RTs from a double pressure. Remove the vent.
Hmm, well that´s what I can think of for now. Might come more when we play on it further.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2013
Agree with Scrajm's points, and this is a really good map. It would be awesome if these issues were fixed, some obviously being more important than others, so we could play it in ensl s2.
a) Remove electrical core as a spawn point for aliens. (no rts in prox)
b) Fix cysts in pipe (so annoying to cyst in there).
c) Marines should´nt be able to shoot RT in oxy from X.
d) Fix FPS in Gravity.
e) Move bay wing a few meters south, so you can´t seige waste from the RT spot
f) There is a room from gravity to trash not textured
Those are things most people will agree upon.
However, I think there are some other ways to improve the map which would make the map even better!
I think it would be fun if aliens always spawned in pipe or waste, and if then they always had the choice to either expand left or right. So if you spawn pipe, then el.core or waste should be somewhat equally viable. If you spawn in waste, then aliens should be able to choose between pipe or gravity tech. Problem is, atm this is not equally viable. Hence I propose:
g) Move grav tech point into trash ejection and rework the room so its fitting for a hive.
h) Make el.core viable by reworking skylights (and maybe other parts) so its easier for aliens to get to from pipeline than it currently is.
i) The ventilation between oxy/x to organ makes it to easy for aliens to defend both RTs from a double pressure. Remove the vent.
Hmm, well that´s what I can think of for now. Might come more when we play on it further.
Thanks for the feedback,
A, This has been discussed before. If this is what people want, then I can change it. There are no close RT proxy's which is an issue, but you can cyst easily into pipe through a vent and have access to 2 easy rts if you can defend.
B. This can be done.
C. I am aware of this issue, and can fix it easily.
D. This isn't something that can be easily fixed. Because of its central location, there are going to be some FPS issues, similar to hub in Tram. There are not that many lights/props in the room.
E. Bay Wing was a temporary RT that was never changed. The room needs to be redone, but it is slightly complicated because of the different height in sewer. This may need to be put off for now.
F. This is a temporary hallway I put in. I never textured it until I received some feedback on it. I can still remove the access point from gravity to trash, but since no one has complained about it I will go ahead and texture it.
G. This has been discussed before. Currently, it doesn't make too much sense in doing it. We would still need a hallway from Gravity > Trash. The only thing that would change would be to make Trash ejection bigger, and put a tech point in there. I am not sure what this would accomplish, and if people would actually feel any difference than the current version. The only plus side of this big change is you cannot arc the tech point from shipping. I don't plan on changing it, unless anyone can convince me otherwise that it would make a big impact.
H. There is a vent that goes directly to pipe. If you have a specific idea that would be great. Otherwise, saying something needs to be re-worked is not constructive feedback.
I. That vent was added recently, I can remove it but aliens use to have a really hard time defending room X. The vent there allowed the aliens another place to flank room x.
As always, I welcome feedback. I want to make this map as enjoyable and balanced for the competitive community. Feel free to drop more suggestions / criticisms.
Well, I just think the map would play very good if aliens always could choose to go for which hive. It gives aliens an interesting choice of tradeoff: either you expand towards the marines (but closer to your main hive) or away from them (but further apart from your main hive).
And if that map philosophy would be implemented, you mustn´t spawn in el.core, and grav tech point has to be moved into trash ejection.
But some direct answers:
E) What a shame.
F) With the map philosophy i suggested, I think you need to remove it.
G) It would make all the sense in the world with the map philosophy. Aliens can´t expand into grav, its to risky. But if you move the tech point to trash, its viable if implemented correctly.
H. Hmm, well, I cant think of how atm, but I will soon.
Well, I just think the map would play very good if aliens always could choose to go for which hive. It gives aliens an interesting choice of tradeoff: either you expand towards the marines (but closer to your main hive) or away from them (but further apart from your main hive).
And if that map philosophy would be implemented, you mustn´t spawn in el.core, and grav tech point has to be moved into trash ejection.
But some direct answers:
E) What a shame.
F) With the map philosophy i suggested, I think you need to remove it.
G) It would make all the sense in the world with the map philosophy. Aliens can´t expand into grav, its to risky. But if you move the tech point to trash, its viable if implemented correctly.
H. Hmm, well, I cant think of how atm, but I will soon.
I) Yes, remove it damn it.
It may be more viable to merge gravity and trash ejection. I'll see what I can do. Basically, from your suggestions Sewer, Trash Ejection, Gravity TP, and Bay wing all need to be redone. I am open to doing this. I'll start grey boxing once I strategically plan out what exactly I am going to do.
xtcmenJoin Date: 2004-04-20Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
Honestly, the biggest problem with this is Trash Ejection is very close to waste. If I move the TP there, then there would be no res node between Trash and Waste.
I can try moving Gravity's Tech point north, and this way you cannot arc it from shipping.
We tried to play jambi last night (everyone votemap'd it) on our pub server with ns2stats enabled, and after both comms hopped in the game would start but the timer wouldn't be running and we couldn't hit anything (and maybe build anything, I don't know). It was weird. Ideas? ns2stats config problem? It's a brand new server from two days ago. The next custom map worked fine.
Beautifully done, it's so complete that one game isn't really enough to properly criticize it. I unfortunately missed a good chunk of the play through on sunday feeding and changing baby. I'm looking forward to playing it again. I'd even suggest to Howser to leave it on the regular rotation for a bit more feedback oppertunity.
While playing on this map i found a spot that i got stuck on just walking past a section of wall so i thought I'd post it up here for the author to see and hopefully fix
While playing on this map i found a spot that i got stuck on just walking past a section of wall so i thought I'd post it up here for the author to see and hopefully fix
Played this in practice matches the last few days, plays great. Found a hole in the map in Pub, above the entrance towards Offload.
I was waiting to upload a new version after everyone started bitching about problems. But this is the only thing people have been complaining about.
I think the arcs going through walls thing is a little more of a big deal xD I didn't see it from a field perspective, I was commander. But apparently they can just drive right through the wall, in almost the same spot as the guy who got stuck.
Played this map today in ensl game, we got stuck on that spot, and we found another spot little more to the right where you get stuck http://i.imgur.com/dQBiHQl.jpg
and also the vent from skylights to Exit C needs to be fixed. Our opponents ran an arc train through there today.
played this map about 8 times and as you can see from this picture
1) remove the shit hangover area in repair
2) remove the shit hangover area in baywing
3) remove the fucking pointless underground room in shipping
4) remove those fucking dumb double doors that just piss everybody off
played this map about 8 times and as you can see from this picture
1) remove the shit hangover area in repair
2) remove the shit hangover area in baywing
3) remove the fucking pointless underground room in shipping
4) remove those fucking dumb double doors that just piss everybody off
1) I guess I can remove this. It provides a nice touch to the room though visually.
2) Baywing is going to be re done. No one likes the catwalks.
3) I actually like this.
4) Yes, I agree they are annoying.
Thanks for being a douche about your suggestions too. The cursing added a nice touch, and they were completely necessary. Lol @ angry competitive Euro player.
played this map about 8 times and as you can see from this picture
1) remove the shit hangover area in repair
2) remove the shit hangover area in baywing
3) remove the fucking pointless underground room in shipping
4) remove those fucking dumb double doors that just piss everybody off
1) I guess I can remove this. It provides a nice touch to the room though visually.
2) Baywing is going to be re done. No one likes the catwalks.
3) I actually like this.
4) Yes, I agree they are annoying.
Thanks for being a douche about your suggestions too. The cursing added a nice touch, and they were completely necessary. Lol @ angry competitive Euro player.
What can I say I'm a passionate NS2 player. And i'm not from Europe
Comments
The biggest problem with the map is that it's so huge and complex. I'm not entirely sure, but after using sv_reset multiple times, it seems that Docking is always the marine start, and aliens have a random spawn between Electrical-Pipeline-Waste (am I correct on this?). The distances are colossal for both parties, but they're much more devastating for early marines without phase gates. It was a cat-and-mouse game for the first five minutes, marines trying to establish a phase gate on the northern side of the map, and the aliens trying to prevent that. The outcome of these battles pretty much decided who won the game.
The first round we played as aliens, and started from pipeline. The marines decided to get the phase gate at electrical core, and a few minutes later at organ donation, pushing our main hive, while all their attempts at trying to secure the right side of the map failed, and it took way too long for them to get back there without phase gates because of the distances. That made it easy for us to cap 4 harvesters, that they couldn't effectively harass. The main fight of the round was at organ donation, where the marines got the phase gate in the first place due to poor alien scouting caused by the confusion of a new map, something that will wear off in later games. The aliens won that match through sheer amount of resources that could be dedicated to new fade eggs. After that, it just became a 2-TP turtle, which we obviously eventually won.
The second match we played as marines, and as the aliens started in Waste, my main priority was to get a phase gate in Pipeline, which we managed to do right in the beginning. And thus the game was over. The aliens had no possibility to effectively push pipeline, especially after I built a 2nd CC and an observatory there, and all their attempts at securing a second hive at Gravity ended up with me sieging it down from Shipping.
The teams in this match were pretty evenly skilled (with maybe a slight advantage on my team's side).
I'm not entirely sure whether this is a balance problem or whether it just introduces a make-or-break scenario with securing an early phase gate, but as I have extremely limited experience of competitive play (and none of public), I would like to see if people agree with me. At least the map is much bigger and more complex than Veil, Summit and Tram, which I mainly play. Big maps tend to favour the aliens, as they can easily cap many harvesters in the early game, and after that economy starts rolling, there's no stopping it. In our second round the aliens weren't short of resources either, even though their map control was very limited, they just had nothing to spend those resources on since we denied them the second hive. The only viable mean I see for marines to secure victory, is to establish a phase gate in Pipeline, and thus denying the aliens the second hive, but because of the layout of the map, getting into Pipeline is nigh-impossible against an alien team who knows that it has to be prevented. There are so many places to make an ambush, and the distances are so huge that even a failed ambush can most probably be re-organised before the marines get into position. A phase gate in any other position on the map gives aliens way too much map control, and it's not really rational to think of a scenario where the marines are able to secure two phase gates on the different sides of the map in a competitive 6vs6 where the teams are of equal skill.
I changed the files in the mod folder to be a lowercase j.
a) Remove electrical core as a spawn point for aliens. (no rts in prox)
b) Fix cysts in pipe (so annoying to cyst in there).
c) Marines should´nt be able to shoot RT in oxy from X.
d) Fix FPS in Gravity.
e) Move bay wing a few meters south, so you can´t seige waste from the RT spot
f) There is a room from gravity to trash not textured
Those are things most people will agree upon.
However, I think there are some other ways to improve the map which would make the map even better!
I think it would be fun if aliens always spawned in pipe or waste, and if then they always had the choice to either expand left or right. So if you spawn pipe, then el.core or waste should be somewhat equally viable. If you spawn in waste, then aliens should be able to choose between pipe or gravity tech. Problem is, atm this is not equally viable. Hence I propose:
g) Move grav tech point into trash ejection and rework the room so its fitting for a hive.
h) Make el.core viable by reworking skylights (and maybe other parts) so its easier for aliens to get to from pipeline than it currently is.
i) The ventilation between oxy/x to organ makes it to easy for aliens to defend both RTs from a double pressure. Remove the vent.
Hmm, well that´s what I can think of for now. Might come more when we play on it further.
Thanks for the feedback,
A, This has been discussed before. If this is what people want, then I can change it. There are no close RT proxy's which is an issue, but you can cyst easily into pipe through a vent and have access to 2 easy rts if you can defend.
B. This can be done.
C. I am aware of this issue, and can fix it easily.
D. This isn't something that can be easily fixed. Because of its central location, there are going to be some FPS issues, similar to hub in Tram. There are not that many lights/props in the room.
E. Bay Wing was a temporary RT that was never changed. The room needs to be redone, but it is slightly complicated because of the different height in sewer. This may need to be put off for now.
F. This is a temporary hallway I put in. I never textured it until I received some feedback on it. I can still remove the access point from gravity to trash, but since no one has complained about it I will go ahead and texture it.
G. This has been discussed before. Currently, it doesn't make too much sense in doing it. We would still need a hallway from Gravity > Trash. The only thing that would change would be to make Trash ejection bigger, and put a tech point in there. I am not sure what this would accomplish, and if people would actually feel any difference than the current version. The only plus side of this big change is you cannot arc the tech point from shipping. I don't plan on changing it, unless anyone can convince me otherwise that it would make a big impact.
H. There is a vent that goes directly to pipe. If you have a specific idea that would be great. Otherwise, saying something needs to be re-worked is not constructive feedback.
I. That vent was added recently, I can remove it but aliens use to have a really hard time defending room X. The vent there allowed the aliens another place to flank room x.
As always, I welcome feedback. I want to make this map as enjoyable and balanced for the competitive community. Feel free to drop more suggestions / criticisms.
And if that map philosophy would be implemented, you mustn´t spawn in el.core, and grav tech point has to be moved into trash ejection.
But some direct answers:
E) What a shame.
F) With the map philosophy i suggested, I think you need to remove it.
G) It would make all the sense in the world with the map philosophy. Aliens can´t expand into grav, its to risky. But if you move the tech point to trash, its viable if implemented correctly.
H. Hmm, well, I cant think of how atm, but I will soon.
I) Yes, remove it damn it.
It may be more viable to merge gravity and trash ejection. I'll see what I can do. Basically, from your suggestions Sewer, Trash Ejection, Gravity TP, and Bay wing all need to be redone. I am open to doing this. I'll start grey boxing once I strategically plan out what exactly I am going to do.
I can try moving Gravity's Tech point north, and this way you cannot arc it from shipping.
Here is an overview of some of the changes that have been made. As you can see, Gravity can no longer be Arc'd from shipping.
Link to new workshop. Was having problems with the other one. New version up.
New mod ID: 7b986f5
http://imgur.com/a/Bh2mr#0
Final product
http://imgur.com/a/8CqBU#0
I was waiting to upload a new version after everyone started bitching about problems. But this is the only thing people have been complaining about.
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5019629/uploads/FileUpload/45/8b886226277fc4c580a37d8b68ca5e.jpg" />
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5019629/uploads/FileUpload/f3/3ee07fffd0e79a95cf7582fde75dab.jpg" />
Should be fixed now. Thanks
I think the arcs going through walls thing is a little more of a big deal xD I didn't see it from a field perspective, I was commander. But apparently they can just drive right through the wall, in almost the same spot as the guy who got stuck.
http://i.imgur.com/dQBiHQl.jpg
and also the vent from skylights to Exit C needs to be fixed. Our opponents ran an arc train through there today.
1) remove the shit hangover area in repair
2) remove the shit hangover area in baywing
3) remove the fucking pointless underground room in shipping
4) remove those fucking dumb double doors that just piss everybody off
1) I guess I can remove this. It provides a nice touch to the room though visually.
2) Baywing is going to be re done. No one likes the catwalks.
3) I actually like this.
4) Yes, I agree they are annoying.
Thanks for being a douche about your suggestions too. The cursing added a nice touch, and they were completely necessary. Lol @ angry competitive Euro player.
What can I say I'm a passionate NS2 player. And i'm not from Europe