<!--quoteo(post=2049329:date=Dec 21 2012, 10:46 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Dec 21 2012, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is just painful to read. Please be more concise. So you're saying marine rush>shade first? Please elaborate. And no, I don't believe teams that lose to shade lose to any other hive too. Doesn't happen on EU atleast. (14 camo khamm wins in row and counting...) JP's are end game. Shade has failed at that point, so it's pointless to include that tech into this convo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mention 14 camo wins like it offers any validity to you or your ability to play. Going shade hive probably reflects least on the alien commander than any other player on the game of what the outcome will be. Are your aliens competant? OK. Are the marines a bit too incompetant? OK. Thats the real focus here. Shade can hurt ress needed for some scans, the amount of scanning you force early on dictates the flow of the game, along with.. did those marines win the fight there? Because once you take a point and build it up, it makes the biggest impact vs. camo, as your tools become real useless thereafter.
I find camo annoying to deal with, but thats it. I dont recommend it as a useful option, its not hard to deal with.
<!--quoteo(post=2049451:date=Dec 21 2012, 02:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just distilled a half dozen 'nerf camo' threads into one sentence. Congratulations. This is a problem with the Marines team overall, and has <i>nothing</i> to do with the Aliens team. Aliens have been nerfed time and time again across the spectrum from Onos timing, to out-of-combat times, to how well structures work and even <i>how</i> the structures work.
Know what the end result has been, according to the only stats you're able to see as a player?
Aliens are winning <i>more than ever</i>.
Now, I'd be the first to point out that NS2Stats is a <i>horrible</i> tool to try and use. That's why the developers have their own stats that we <i>can not</i> see as players. Would I like to see those stats? You bet I would.
I'm just pointing to the fact that there is essentially zero information beyond random peoples experience to base any nerfs on. That random experience has resulted in no consensus community view. There are complainers, haters, L2P'ers, apologists, and those that don't care either way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The lack of community consensus is not for lack of statistics but despite them, due to personal bias and misinterpretation of those numbers. You are right, ns2stats has its flaws, but it's the best we have and it is still superior to anecdote. That win rates continue to shift in the aliens' favor despite nerfs doesn't mean the numbers are not representative.
There are factors beyond patch notes like learning curve, metagame changes, fingers pointing at hitreg, etc. This game is no Starcraft where strategies are replicated almost instantly due to battlenet and the good exposure of high profile games, you can't just tweak one number in isolation to get rapid iteration thanks to a huge player base.
<!--quoteo(post=2049451:date=Dec 21 2012, 02:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe the skill floor required for Marines command is simply too much for most players. I think that the nerfs required for aliens to lower that skill floor are the worst possible solution though. It doesn't 'balance' anything to nerf camo, it removes it from the game. This might be fine, since the Marines commander will have less to worry about.
The flip side of that is the Aliens commander has less to worry about too, and he already doesn't have much to worry about. This is one step closer to the eventual automation of the Aliens command. It's already so easy that a simple computer program could command as well as an intermediate human. Lets just go whole hog and get rid of him entirely since predictability and linear progression are what every new player seems to want from the Aliens.
If that's what you need to play Marines commander well, then perhaps you should tell that to all the experienced Marines commanders that don't have any problems fighting cloaking aliens. Since you're not listening to them though, I doubt they'll listen to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Camo is a one time choice for khammanders who suffer from a lack of things to do and an ongoing responsibility for marine comms that already have their hands full. How is that anything but fuel for fire? But even if it did help the problem - which by the way is systemic to the game because it is rooted in low level design choices that can't be corrected by such superficial changes -, that doesn't justify an ability that makes things even worse somewhere else.
There were many suggestions that aren't as drastic as the complete removal of camo or a nerf that would relegate it to oblivion. I think - I hope - nobody wants it to be gone for good, it goes too well with the theme of the game. The most common denominator of all the suggestions was to give the individual marine a fighting chance, and the reason is easy to see: Having to rely on your comm to function better is perfectly ok, having to rely on your comm to function at all, not so much.
<!--quoteo(post=2049401:date=Dec 21 2012, 09:01 PM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Dec 21 2012, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you watch <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BRBcjsOt0_g#t=50s" target="_blank">this</a> episode of Extra Credits it becomes immediately obvious why camo is just bad design. Developers have to make sure that it is both fun to use and fun to fight against. The number of threads about this one topic is indication enough that somebody is not having fun. Which should be a concern to game designers even if the crowd was fundamentally wrong.
..
Now think of how foot soldiers are affected by camo: Sneaking around on walls, finding dark areas to hide, setting up ambushes; a lot of work went into making maps that accommodate this hide and seek. Frantically emptying magazines trying to track skulks that rush us; the thrill of dodging bullets left and right, looking to be as unpredictable as possible while closing our distance to marines; I would say these are pretty integral to how the game plays ideally. Which camo castrates. It utterly dumbs down skulk gameplay and frustrates marines who can't do anything to counter it without their comm.
And by anything I mean anything. Shooting into thin air hoping to hit a skulk in a room is not a counter, it is blind luck. Moving in pairs to help each other is not a counter, skulks can do that too. And if they are worth their salt, they use their victim as cover from the marine that's covering. Moving in groups is not a counter, it is a prerequisite to give your comm a chance to counter it. Because he will bleed tres if he has to scan constantly on several fronts. However if he is incompetent you are still SOL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2049531:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:31 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Dec 22 2012, 01:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 for best contribution to the subject.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2049528:date=Dec 21 2012, 05:19 PM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Dec 21 2012, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lack of community consensus is not for lack of statistics but despite them, due to personal bias and misinterpretation of those numbers. You are right, ns2stats has its flaws, but it's the best we have and it is still superior to anecdote. That win rates continue to shift in the aliens' favor despite nerfs doesn't mean the numbers are not representative.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Using a flawed statistic is worse than using no statistics at all. It makes people think you have a point that's grounded in data, when the data provided by NS2Stats is completely irrelevant. (Especially in discussion of an untraceable metric, like shade first wins) It includes non-official maps and non-official mods in it's data which pretty much invalidates anything that rests on that data.
NS2Stats is meant to engorge e-peens, not provided quality win rate metrics. It isn't even great at engorging, since you might be #1 at Combat but fail every time you try to play vanilla NS2.
That's really just arguing the data, and not camo as a viable strategy. The fact is there is <i>no</i> data that the community has access to in order to make an informed decision on if a nerf is actually needed, or will actually make any difference what-so-ever.
That's pretty much why every 'Camo is OP' thread is made of pure, unadulterated fail. You can argue it isn't fun, but you can't argue that it wins or loses matches in any meaningful way.
Camo just doesn't compare in 'brokenness' to other strategies that have been nerfed or excised entirely since release. It's fine if it gets nerfed because it won't make a difference to me. If anything, it will silence the n00bs on my team that demand camo first and rage quit when I go with the most viable long-term build order. You know, the one that win's in every situation instead of a niche? (I don't mean to imply Shift/Crag/Shade is unbeatable. I merely state that it's the most efficient build order possible no matter the skill on the other team.)
<!--quoteo(post=2049569:date=Dec 21 2012, 07:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Using a flawed statistic is worse than using no statistics at all. It makes people think you have a point that's grounded in data, when the data provided by NS2Stats is completely irrelevant. (Especially in discussion of an untraceable metric, like shade first wins) It includes non-official maps and non-official mods in it's data which pretty much invalidates anything that rests on that data.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize you can filter all this crap out, right?
If you want to look at vanilla games on vanilla maps, you can do that. It takes about a minute.
<!--quoteo(post=2049579:date=Dec 21 2012, 06:51 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 21 2012, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049579"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You realize you can filter all this crap out, right?
If you want to look at vanilla games on vanilla maps, you can do that. It takes about a minute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so use those filters and you end up with 53% Aliens and 46% Marines since build 235. Nevermind the huge influx of new players, or the fact it takes into account roughly 400 games total out of <i>thousands</i>.
Mods and custom maps are easily filtered out, and just doing that one thing brings things to almost 50/50 win rates in 235.
I don't argue that, because it's still a flawed metric since NS2Stats doesn't track what you used to win. If everyone truly abuses some imaginary superior Camo strategy, that would be the only way to tell.
As it stands, it's people crying 'nerf' because they were curb stomped or are curb stomping in n00blicious pub games. All the evidence in the world wouldn't change these peoples mind about Camo, but they will eventually bump noses with a team that proves them wrong. I'm sure then they'll just blame their n00b team though, because obviously the loss couldn't have <i>anything</i> to do with their immaculate 'strategy'.
<!--quoteo(post=2049595:date=Dec 21 2012, 07:23 PM:name=IAMKING)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IAMKING @ Dec 21 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->quick note: the proportional size of the sample relative to the population has no bearing on statistical analysis
the more you know...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only true if there's an assumption of similarity between the sample size and the greater population.
In this instance, modded servers that use NS2Stats are dubious as an assumption of similarity. It's more likely that better players will gravitate towards servers that track performance, as poor players are less likely to want to track performance until they're good enough to compete. That is, of course, an opinion much like the other useless opinions in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=2049588:date=Dec 21 2012, 08:08 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 08:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, so use those filters and you end up with 53% Aliens and 46% Marines since build 235. Nevermind the huge influx of new players, or the fact it takes into account roughly 400 games total out of <i>thousands</i>.
Mods and custom maps are easily filtered out, and just doing that one thing brings things to almost 50/50 win rates in 235.
I don't argue that, because it's still a flawed metric since NS2Stats doesn't track what you used to win. If everyone truly abuses some imaginary superior Camo strategy, that would be the only way to tell.
As it stands, it's people crying 'nerf' because they were curb stomped or are curb stomping in n00blicious pub games. All the evidence in the world wouldn't change these peoples mind about Camo, but they will eventually bump noses with a team that proves them wrong. I'm sure then they'll just blame their n00b team though, because obviously the loss couldn't have <i>anything</i> to do with their immaculate 'strategy'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just took a sample size of ~24 hours, or 200 games. Let's try going back 2 weeks because nothing important has changed in that time. Now we get back to the marine winrate of 38% with a sample size of ~3800 games.
I also agree that NS2Stats cannot show that individual strategies is OP or balanced. That doesn't make it a "flawed statistic," as you described it. NS2Stats also has the build order vs win/loss information. It just isn't presented in a fashion where one could reasonably access the data. NS2Stats (or someone else) could compile this data to show win/loss of various upgrade first builds.
<!--quoteo(post=2049614:date=Dec 21 2012, 08:01 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 21 2012, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's try going back 2 weeks because nothing important has changed in that time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are aware several maps have had a lot of changes, right? I'd say that's pretty significant. Not to mention further optimization and ability changes, or several exploits that were fixed specifically with cloaking and shade structures? Of course, any statistic using a massive influx of clueless players is bound to be flawed. So maybe this is the proof we've been looking for all along in how the game is balanced for clueless teams mindlessly face-surfing into one another?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also agree that NS2Stats cannot show that individual strategies is OP or balanced. That doesn't make it a "flawed statistic," as you described it. NS2Stats also has the build order vs win/loss information. It just isn't presented in a fashion where one could reasonably access the data. NS2Stats (or someone else) could compile this data to show win/loss of various upgrade first builds.
That's a pretty powerful tool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If someone wants to do that in order to prove their point they're more than welcome to. I don't personally give a damn if they nerf Camo or not, I just think it's blown out of proportion and a popular flame topic to boot. The only point I really had was that there are zero numbers to dictate how effective or ineffective camouflage is as a winning strategy. UWE knows though, and I'm sure they'll step in to change it if they start to feel that it's a problem.
Basically, I'm saying put your money where your mouth is if you want real change. If you want to change a game mechanic like Camo you better be ready to prove you have a reason for the change beyond you suck at NS2. Right now, no one can prove anything but everyone can flame everyone else.
So unless you or someone else cares to delve through data you claim exists to prove a point, I'm going to continue to say L2P with the current easily countered cloaking upgrade. It's surprisingly easy to say since the retort the pro-nerfers use is basically 'no <i>you</i> suck' while accusing me of exploiting a tactic that I consider worthless in a serious game. I consider it worthless in a non-serious game too, just to clarify, but I <i>can</i> see how it would be really useful versus a n00b Marine commander. I'd reiterate my argument that anything wins versus a clueless Marines commander, but it will fall on deaf ears.
TL;DR:
Camo sucks if you're good, and it sucks if you're bad, but it's great if you're good and the other team is bad. This is not fun for the crappy players, but would it be any more fun if they shot a whole clip at a celerity lerk, missed every shot, and then died to poison gas they didn't understand? They still miserably fail, and conspicuously miserably fail on top of it. When a guy can go 70-3 in a pub game, should they also be nerfed for shutting the other ridiculously bad team out of playing?
I'm curious what servers you play on and what nickname you play under. I'd love to play with you sometime.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not curious enough to read my signature, I see.
Generally I play on about a half dozen servers. I like Scareytown and Voogru the best, although lately those have been so full I've just been spinning the wheel in selecting where I play.
Oh, and IBIS server as well. Basically any server I play on that has the 'surrender' vote option I'll give a reasonable shot. Why the 'surrender' mod isn't in the main game is a mystery to me, as it's great at shaving two to five minutes off a crappy already lost game.
<!--quoteo(post=2049333:date=Dec 21 2012, 05:59 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Dec 21 2012, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do not think Camo is overpowered, but I do think it's a design problem that you need a competent commander in order to counter it. Being on a marine team with a commander that doesn't use the counters to Camo is very frustrating because there's little that you can do about it. Every other upgrade is Marine vs Alien, Camo is Comm vs Alien.
My opinion is that Camo should be reworked to be counterable by marines in the field and not by the comm. Make it a partial cloak that is not revealed by scans or observatories, or something along those lines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> unfortunately its been pointed out that partial cloaks would be too easy to texture mod to make it entirely useless
<!--quoteo(post=2049391:date=Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love how in every camo topic you make it sound like Ink and Hallucinations are useful, rather than the only resource sink you're likely to have with a shade hive. Hallucination are, quite literally, the most useless thing the aliens have in their arsenal. Ink is at least <i>situationally</i> useful rather than useless in every possible scenario.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're arguing that something capable of creating a distraction or using 1Tres to force a 3Tres scan is a useless resource sink ? Strange then what exactly is the observatory considering its minimum spend is 3 Tres per scan ?
<!--quoteo(post=2049391:date=Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Go ahead, nerf camo. It'll be fun having Shift/Crag/Shade every single game ever. I'm serious when I say this. A nerf to camo makes everyone happy. The n00bs that think it's useful will believe they helped, the good players that were frustrated by crappy commanders getting camo first will be happy, and most of all Marine teams will be happy because Aliens now have the same build order 100% of the time. Marines will also not need to worry about changing their strategy, ever.
These are all <u>benefits</u> right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh how I love you attacking new players so often. Its such a great show there. The choice will still be there and just because you always go for one strategy, I look forward to hearing you cry for nerfs to the Marines because the mata game evolves yo counter standard Crag, Shift play
<!--quoteo(post=2049391:date=Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(Do not take my obvious sarcasm as an indicator that I think Camo <i>shouldn't</i> be nerfed. It should. That way the newer players will realize camo had <i>nothing</i> to do with the curb stomping they're constantly at the receiving end of.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No that would be players like you, forming organised teams and going into rookie servers making sure you're all on one team then any objection yelling "L2P NOOBBS" or "Not my Fault you suck"
<!--quoteo(post=2049451:date=Dec 21 2012, 09:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just distilled a half dozen 'nerf camo' threads into one sentence. Congratulations. This is a problem with the Marines team overall, and has <i>nothing</i> to do with the Aliens team. Aliens have been nerfed time and time again across the spectrum from Onos timing, to out-of-combat times, to how well structures work and even <i>how</i> the structures work.
Know what the end result has been, according to the only stats you're able to see as a player?
Aliens are winning <i>more than ever</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because one change didn't solve the problem doesn't mean it wasn't part of the problem or a problem in its own right
<!--quoteo(post=2049451:date=Dec 21 2012, 09:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If that's what you need to play Marines commander well, then perhaps you should tell that to all the experienced Marines commanders that don't have any problems fighting cloaking aliens. Since you're not listening to them though, I doubt they'll listen to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No I think you're the only one walking round saying how their 137 hours of command experience makes them the definitive expert on if somethings balanced due to anecdotal evidence from your play time.
When looking at it statistically you can spot the problem of one upgrading costing 15 Tres requiring 15 Tres and 3Tres often after that to counter. Its easy to spot the issue and you've even called hallucination a resource dump when you can spend as little as 1Tres on them. That's not stats gathered from NS2 stats that's from the wiki / in game itself.
Countering Camo has a higher cost than Camo to run and you can say all you like about how it means you don't get to crag shift so its a disadvantage but as you can delay the Marines upgrades and skulk vs Marine is viable and possible from the start of the game it doesn't create a huge disadvantage for the aliens
<!--quoteo(post=2049473:date=Dec 21 2012, 09:51 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This I will 100% agree with.
At the level of play most people are citing problems with, anything will win though. That's the only disconnect I really see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm starting to question if you got the message of that episode of extra credits as it pointed out the issue with having a very powerful strategy that works well for up to a certain skill level and that skill level being beyond the point new strategies were meant to have been developed by the player not simply the reliance on that one idea. The reason the wheels come off Camo higher up is people don't get how to use shade hives that well beyond Camo, Silence and Shade plant passives. Heck by the sound of it you've barely used hallucination yourself otherwise you'd get the tactical options it gives by having the enemy chasing ghosts.
I'm sorry if you feel like I'm attacking <i>you</i>. I'd say you're probably a great person. It's your half-formed opinion of a game you haven't played much of that I question.
<!--quoteo(post=2049305:date=Dec 21 2012, 12:08 PM:name=Tyrsis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tyrsis @ Dec 21 2012, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to have to disagree. Going camo first completely ruins alien mid game. You can go lerk approx 3-4 minutes in, and with only camo, a lerk loses a lot of killing power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if you know this or not; Lerks can fly at full speed with camo. All you do is start gliding and slow yourself down; you can achieve that by hitting a wall, the ceiling, or flying straight up for a little. Don't let go of space, after you're cloaked you can glide up and then down to gain all of your speed back.
This makes lerks with camo easily on par with cele lerks.
<!--quoteo(post=2049329:date=Dec 21 2012, 06:46 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Dec 21 2012, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is just painful to read. Please be more concise. So you're saying marine rush>shade first? Please elaborate. And no, I don't believe teams that lose to shade lose to any other hive too. Doesn't happen on EU atleast. (14 camo khamm wins in row and counting...) JP's are end game. Shade has failed at that point, so it's pointless to include that tech into this convo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm saying that if marines detect a shade first build from the aliens, the marines SHOULD rush the alien hive. Sometime in the first minute or two, some marine should suicide into the alien hive to see what tech they have. This should dictate marine strategic goals as much as knowing where the primary hive is IMO.
The reason that marines should rush the alien hive on a shade first build is that there is too great a chance of an alien rush on the marine base, and because tactically it makes more sense to fight aliens who rely on stealth in a place where stealth is of no advantage. Without combat upgrades, and no way to shift-egg or heal-soak out of a push, the aliens are at their most defenseless at or near their hive.
I only play EU servers, shade first fails there more often than not in my experience. Most common failures are realted to mid game alien weakness and lack of harassment or because we got our hive rushed and egg-locked.
My point about marine teams that lose to camo first tech being bad at the game isn't a catch-all... obviously the aliens could have just been better or exploited camo to a greater degree, but in general its not hard to counter camo as marine by simply being god damn aggressive. One thing that I always laugh at is how marine players slow down because of camo... trying to listen for any sound, notice any movement. THEY ARE INVISIBLE AND SILENT RETARDS! You know what works better? Sprinting. A cloaked skulk can't keep up with a marine who is moving quickly through an area, which forces the alien to let him go or break cloak. If that alien isn't already right next to the marine, it just turned into a regular engagement with a naked skulk... aim-shoot-win.
<!--quoteo(post=2049727:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:55 AM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 22 2012, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Countering Camo has a higher cost than Camo to run and you can say all you like about how it means you don't get to crag shift so its a disadvantage but as you can delay the Marines upgrades and skulk vs Marine is viable and possible from the start of the game it doesn't create a huge disadvantage for the aliens<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Math fail and I'm sure you don't understand opportunity cost then. The cost of Camo is 25 total. The cost of an Obs is 15 Total. The theory is that as the game plays out, over time the 3 res scans will eventually pass the 25 cost of camo and and at that point you've actually paid for the cost of the camo upgrade.
However, choosing shade/camo first has consequences for the alien tech path that building an Obs doesn't. Marines will have an Obs in base regardless of your tech choice. So because it was an obligatory cost for marines, its not factored into the cost of the alien decision for the purpose of analysis. That makes the total cost of Shade/Camo 25 and the cost to marines 0. That makes the first 7 scans for marines used to specifically counter camo essentially free.
Now, for the marine commander, there's a new set of variables that also go into fighting the war you picked. For one, the arms lab isn't really as important since LMG's will continue to destroy skulks without cara for quite some time, and properly scanned groups shouldn't need armor upgrades either. The later arms lab translates to more obs at important areas which reduce the number of "free" scans needed to counter your tech path.
Also, because shotguns don't need to be researched until fades usually, there's no reason to buy them early game anyway. But, because Fades may be arriving before cara, the need for shotguns can be delayed further or, if not, may wind up costing you 50 res lifeforms for a much reduced cost. This either translates to another obs (and following the logic of free-scans) and the extension of the "free scan" pool further.
The cost of countering camo isn't the base cost of the tech vs. the base cost of its obvious counter... these things don't exist in a vacuum. The choice of shade first impacts so many more elements of the mid game you're overlooking that I wonder how you come to this decision except for the fact that camo-first wins result from rush-mechanics and not from normal game play that goes well into the mid game.
Properly run marine teams will either win early, or win later vs. shade first but have a high chance of losing between 2-5 minutes.
I for one like the idea of having a rush build in the game. I think since this is an RTS at its core, rushing should be an option. I think shade first is a fine example of that option in the game and so I really don't think it should be nerfed at all because it's clearly not imbalanced. Its strong vs. rookies to the point of seeming imbalanced, but I believe that rookies will continue to struggle against cara skulks or shift-pressure too.
Finally, again... shade chambers have an almost negligible effect on the game. Unless you are seeing some amazing ink-hallucination strategies, please stop with this theorycraft. Just because something seems totally awesome doesn't make it so on the assumption that someone with god-like skills can bring it forth. Show me where anyone upgraded a shade in any match where the halluciations made any difference and I'll show you 10 games where they didn't do a damn thing but waste alien res.
I just played a match last night were I made an army of pink aliens and shoved them in the marine base just because it was funny... one or two pink onos got shot up and that was it... they don't act like hostile aliens, they don't move like hostile aliens, and they show up in numbers and at times that don't make any logical sense. They are gimmicks, not tactics. Ink counters Arcs, thats what they are good for and I've seen it used to great effect when pushing sorting from deposite, but otherwise it's too hard to keep up with a marine scan that always decloaks first and gets one arc volley off... it stalls, it doesn't stop, arcs.
while you are right about basicly everything you say there is also the opportunity cost of Aliens to be accounted for:
on pubs the khamm normally gets away with placing at least 2 rts, maybe even 3 before going for celerity/cara and then getting another rt and the second hive. So basically you can spend 30-~45 of your initial res on rts and the required cysts. If you go for camo you have to go shade hive + veil + camo which adds up to 30 res. So you initially can only build 1 more harvester+required cysts.
So lets say you need 30 res for camo, 10 for rt and 10 for cysts for 2 rts, you have to wait for another 10 res until you get this third rt up.
At the time your 2nd rt finishes and you get 2 res per 6 seconds, a non-camo khamm would already receive 3 or 4 res per tick. From this res advantage this khamm can get a quicker second hive while still providing the upgrade he goes for.
So camo basically is a sprint start for aliens, giving a combat advantage early on at the cost of combat disadvantage in mid game(before 3 Hives) and the possibility of a very crippling disadvante late game (if you dont get 3 hives up) as well as an economical disadvantage.
this is the same as 6pool/4Gate in SC2. Of course you get superior fighting power very early in game. BUT you sacrifice early workers and therefor cripple yourself if you really dont do damage with you early advantage. Many SC2 beginners react to these pushes the same as people here to camo. They loose some stuff and get into this "I'm dead anyways, he has so many units already" mindset. What they don't see is that the player rushing thinks "omg ######, I HAVE to kill him now, because otherwise he will totally crush me in 2 minutes".
But- I already know the answer: "OMG gnoarch, you dont have any clue, camo is just too strong [...]blablabla[...]expensive[...]scan[...]required[...]skill[...]uneven[...]nerf!!!1111"
To this I can only reply: I'm glad I'll be away from my computer for the next 2 weeks so when I come back you will have another thing you will be 100% sure is totally too strong/weak/no fun/stupid.
<!--quoteo(post=2049637:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:08 AM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 22 2012, 05:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every time a camo thread is made, a puppy dies.
Thanks a lot OP! You puppy-murderer! :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm more of the cat guy. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=2049795:date=Dec 22 2012, 03:03 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm saying that if marines detect a shade first build from the aliens, the marines SHOULD rush the alien hive. Sometime in the first minute or two, some marine should suicide into the alien hive to see what tech they have. This should dictate marine strategic goals as much as knowing where the primary hive is IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Rushing a hive early is an overall good tactic. No matter what upgrade the aliens chose. Sure, a shift may help you against egg-locks and craigs may force the marines to kill them before the hive. But saying that a hive rush is the most viable option against shade is out of topic. It is overall a good tactic. Anyway. I agree with you, that you can win with camo against a bad marine team. (I wrote this already in the OP) But I propose also, that you can win easily with camo against a equally skilled marine team. I'm sad, that I hadn't the opportunity to show you the power of camo last night in the games, because of the huge skill imbalance over all the games.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>On a complete other topic: I'm thankful for every contribution to this thread. But I have the feeling that most people haven't even read the TL;DR-version. My main point is, that a marine on the field needs to be able to counter camo or it gets frustrating. Not that it is overpowered or underpowered. This may be my fault, because of the threads title. Anyway. I would love to get more comments that focus on the points in the TL;DR-section of the OP.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Math fail and I'm sure you don't understand opportunity cost then. The cost of Camo is 25 total. The cost of an Obs is 15 Total. The theory is that as the game plays out, over time the 3 res scans will eventually pass the 25 cost of camo and and at that point you've actually paid for the cost of the camo upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm guessing I'm missing something as Camo alone is 5 for veil 10 for Camo evolution
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, choosing shade/camo first has consequences for the alien tech path that building an Obs doesn't. Marines will have an Obs in base regardless of your tech choice. So because it was an obligatory cost for marines, its not factored into the cost of the alien decision for the purpose of analysis. That makes the total cost of Shade/Camo 25 and the cost to marines 0. That makes the first 7 scans for marines used to specifically counter camo essentially free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except and here's the turn about, people are saying you have to hold two tech points. Even taking the Marines will have obs so there's no cost it, to do as people are saying here then yes there is a cost applied as you have to build 1 obs per base. Which without Camo isn't so much of a problem as you can just rely on turrets to an extend to hold areas.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, for the marine commander, there's a new set of variables that also go into fighting the war you picked. For one, the arms lab isn't really as important since LMG's will continue to destroy skulks without cara for quite some time, and properly scanned groups shouldn't need armor upgrades either. The later arms lab translates to more obs at important areas which reduce the number of "free" scans needed to counter your tech path.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is assuming the Aliens don't predict the scans , don't use hallucinations to force a fake scan then move in after and don't ink the place. Oh as that Aliens don't get a second have and cara up.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, because shotguns don't need to be researched until fades usually, there's no reason to buy them early game anyway. But, because Fades may be arriving before cara, the need for shotguns can be delayed further or, if not, may wind up costing you 50 res lifeforms for a much reduced cost. This either translates to another obs (and following the logic of free-scans) and the extension of the "free scan" pool further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait cara fades. Honestly you don't need a cara fade to be effective, just have blink and then you can run in and run out again.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The cost of countering camo isn't the base cost of the tech vs. the base cost of its obvious counter... these things don't exist in a vacuum. The choice of shade first impacts so many more elements of the mid game you're overlooking that I wonder how you come to this decision except for the fact that camo-first wins result from rush-mechanics and not from normal game play that goes well into the mid game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Look at the strategies suggested. The present Camo counter requires Marines to split up as one big group defending their RT points while the commander scans all of them and they push the hive. Essentially now its got to the point where people are combining all the counters suggested. The problem is they don't work like that many being mutually exclusive. Most if not all of the suggested plans will either cost more RT due to scans or not defending RTs or time now in this game Time can = Resources so by causing the marines to be a slower moving unit that time costs more resources.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Properly run marine teams will either win early, or win later vs. shade first but have a high chance of losing between 2-5 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Properly run Alien teams can win any moment they like mid - late game with shade
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I for one like the idea of having a rush build in the game. I think since this is an RTS at its core, rushing should be an option. I think shade first is a fine example of that option in the game and so I really don't think it should be nerfed at all because it's clearly not imbalanced. Its strong vs. rookies to the point of seeming imbalanced, but I believe that rookies will continue to struggle against cara skulks or shift-pressure too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See the Extra credits episode listed. It explains why at present people are saying shade is weak. In Rookie level people learn how good Camo is and with no reason to switch until later or learn they don't have too. By the time they reach the level its not effective then they will have missed out on other things they could and should have learned. Camo is failing because its effective for such a long time that people aren't learning anything else about shade hives, you can even see it in some people here saying how poor shade hives are. You know why they are saying this ? Because the wheels have fallen off their wagon and due to Shift Crag being the next easiest to do they are. Rather than looking and learning about other aspects of shade hives.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, again... shade chambers have an almost negligible effect on the game. Unless you are seeing some amazing ink-hallucination strategies, please stop with this theorycraft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok please stop with the Theorycraft yourself as I'm pointing out theres an imbalance not creating a perfect strategy here. I'm pointing out shade is viable and potentially unbalanced not that it is the most efficient perfect win all method which so many are here touting Crag shift combo as.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because something seems totally awesome doesn't make it so on the assumption that someone with god-like skills can bring it forth. Show me where anyone upgraded a shade in any match where the halluciations made any difference and I'll show you 10 games where they didn't do a damn thing but waste alien res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And a perfectly played game shouldn't be required simply to counter anything other than a perfectly played game. At present so many are saying if Marines do this that and the other, the problem is this relies for most of them on it working perfectly. Show me one game where Macs made a difference and I'll show you 10 the same way. You know how this is possible ? because it happens just like people being killed stupidly a Onos. To say something isn't a valid counter due to the skill level being too high on it is ridiculous when the arguement is being used that Camo can be counterd by a good team with skill. Surely that means any counter to Camo is also invalid due to it requiring more skill to counter than to use ?
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just played a match last night were I made an army of pink aliens and shoved them in the marine base just because it was funny... one or two pink onos got shot up and that was it... they don't act like hostile aliens, they don't move like hostile aliens, and they show up in numbers and at times that don't make any logical sense. They are gimmicks, not tactics. Ink counters Arcs, thats what they are good for and I've seen it used to great effect when pushing sorting from deposite, but otherwise it's too hard to keep up with a marine scan that always decloaks first and gets one arc volley off... it stalls, it doesn't stop, arcs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering thanks to a Com getting some Exo suits to chase a fake Onos last night I was able to Solo 3 exos as a single Gorge. So your anecdote points to them being gimmicks mine points to them being highly powerful in the right hands.
Ink can really mes with Marines when they've scanned as often then scan and move in. Ink being deployed suddenly kills any advantage they had by knowing where the enemy was.
Again the Meta game is evolving and no matter how much you say how weak shade is, in the right hands that understands how to use it its just as viable with the cloak evolution itself being unbalanced.
<!--quoteo(post=2049816:date=Dec 22 2012, 04:23 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Dec 22 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>On a complete other topic: I'm thankful for every contribution to this thread. But I have the feeling that most people haven't even read the TL;DR-version. My main point is, that a marine on the field needs to be able to counter camo or it gets frustrating. Not that it is overpowered or underpowered. This may be my fault, because of the threads title. Anyway. I would love to get more comments that focus on the points in the TL;DR-section of the OP.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so marines also should be able to counter onos, lerk and fade on the field aswell? The core of NS is that in some situations as a marine you are just ######ed if you are not with your fellow marines/if comm doesnt help you. You certainly cant win against an onos and most likely will get eaten by an camo skulk if you stand around long enough for him to bite you.
Thats just part of the whole Idea of marines against aliens. there are enough FPS where you alwys can just shoot your enemy in the head and thus win against him regardless of his weapon/equip. NS is different. Thats the point. It is INTENDED that you ###### your pants if youre alone or in pairs in alien Territory and they have cloak. OMG is this whole concept of asymmetric gameplay as well as requirement of teamplay to win so hard to grasp?!?
Why dont we just remove everything. Maps are squares or maybe cricles with some crates for cover randomly scattered about. Then we remove aliens and Marines can shhot marines in Deathmatch mode. Lets even make all models the same bright green color so nobody can ruin the fun for others by hiding and camping somewhere. Then remove everthing except pistol so random gun spread as well as noobtubin with the gl is impossible. Then everything is perfectly balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=2049838:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:09 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 22 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so marines also should be able to counter onos, lerk and fade on the field aswell?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They can. Exo Good shooting / jetpack Shotgun + weapons 3 and good shooting or jeptack, or Grenading the area
<!--quoteo(post=2049838:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:09 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 22 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The core of NS is that in some situations as a marine you are just ######ed if you are not with your fellow marines/if comm doesnt help you. You certainly cant win against an onos and most likely will get eaten by an camo skulk if you stand around long enough for him to bite you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unless he ctrl stealth drops next to you.
<!--quoteo(post=2049838:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:09 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 22 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats just part of the whole Idea of marines against aliens. there are enough FPS where you alwys can just shoot your enemy in the head and thus win against him regardless of his weapon/equip. NS is different. Thats the point. It is INTENDED that you ###### your pants if youre alone or in pairs in alien Territory and they have cloak. OMG is this whole concept of asymmetric gameplay as well as requirement of teamplay to win so hard to grasp?!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> However plenty of suggestions have been put forward in other threads that would require teamwork and the reply for most was "OMG you want to Nerf Camo its useless as is how dare you L2P you noobs"
<!--quoteo(post=2049847:date=Dec 22 2012, 06:33 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 22 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They can. Exo Good shooting / jetpack Shotgun + weapons 3 and good shooting or jeptack, or Grenading the area<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wtf? Obviously my point is that a single normal marine cant compete with Fade/Onos which to a certain extend may also true for a camo skulk. The point is that this is INTENTIONAL.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless he ctrl stealth drops next to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well lets hope all the waiting at the ceiling was worth the kill of the rambo marine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However plenty of suggestions have been put forward in other threads that would require teamwork and the reply for most was "OMG you want to Nerf Camo its useless as is how dare you L2P you noobs"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "plenty" suggestions are either make aliens weaker by making them not to move while cloaked or only semi invisible which would lead to shade being even worse than no upgrade because noobs would actually think camo would bring an advantage and waste res and time towards something that makes them even worse than normal. The other suggestion is to make some kind of uncloak device which has 1000 problems and most certainly would either make marines weaker because they had to spend res on something pointless or make camo completely obsolete because it would be hardcountered once spotted.
And btw. There were many suggestions made to you and others how to play against camo effectively and all you did was "OMG Camo imbalanced and no fun to play against... Needs more skill from marine than alien blahblahblah" And btw. II: When players that have more experiance and far more gametime(not neccessarily talking about myself) tell you that something is not op and you probably only need to learn the game a little better you really should consider if maybe perhaps mayhaps there could be at least one little small tiny spark of truth to what they are saying.
And btw. III: Nobody just said "omgz l2p noob". Several people really tried to elaborate why camo is quite easy to counter and all that. The frustrating thing is that people who obviously dont have that much knowledge about the game JUST WONT LISTEN and insist on their opinion probably spending more time here making up new imba-camo-scenarios instead of L2P.
<!--quoteo(post=2049850:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:53 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 22 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And btw. There were many suggestions made to you and others how to play against camo effectively and all you did was "OMG Camo imbalanced and no fun to play against... Needs more skill from marine than alien blahblahblah"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seeing as you missed it, I did go through most of the counters and pointed out the issues with using them and how easy it is to simply counter those. Not that anyone pro camo seems to be bothering to read any more
<!--quoteo(post=2049850:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:53 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 22 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And btw. II: When players that have more experiance and far more gametime(not neccessarily talking about myself) tell you that something is not op and you probably only need to learn the game a little better you really should consider if maybe perhaps mayhaps there could be at least one little small tiny spark of truth to what they are saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> With More game time than me 2 have said that. over the course of all the threads 5 have pointed out there is an issue of some kind
Over the course of the multiple threads that have happened.
<!--quoteo(post=2049850:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:53 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 22 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And btw. III: Nobody just said "omgz l2p noob". Several people really tried to elaborate why camo is quite easy to counter and all that. The frustrating thing is that people who obviously dont have that much knowledge about the game JUST WONT LISTEN and insist on their opinion probably spending more time here making up new imba-camo-scenarios instead of L2P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And I've pointed out multiple times how it is an issue and yet I keep being told on no obs is a hard counter to Camo. When for it to be the costs would balance out. I'm just waiting for someone to bring up my NS2 stats now as its going to be so funny, as it turns out most of the servers I frequent aren't supplying stats to that site lol I can clearly see an issue with Camo on multiple levels not least the fact its a tactic that's very effective until a point and the people being stomped using it is because up until then it was so effective for them they they didn't learn to go beyond it and use other aspects of the shade hive.
Did no-one on the "Camo is fine" side actually comprehend what was said in the extra credits video ?
<!--quoteo(post=2049825:date=Dec 22 2012, 10:11 AM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 22 2012, 10:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm guessing I'm missing something as Camo alone is 5 for veil 10 for Camo evolution<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are forgetting another cost. I'm not going to tell you what it is though, since you're so pro you can't be bothered to listen to people with literally hundreds of hours more experience than you. Lets see if you can figure out what you missed!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I've pointed out multiple times how it is an issue and yet I keep being told on no obs is a hard counter to Camo. When for it to be the costs would balance out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You keep citing cost as proof. Trouble pointed out how totally and utterly wrong you are. I'll help him out here.
No costs will ever 'equal out' between Marines and Aliens. Marines, by design, cost more resources than Aliens do. Some structures are the same cost, but when you get down to the nuts and bolts there is an <i>astronomical</i> difference in costs between the two teams. How do you explain that? It's like it was <i>designed to be different</i>. That difference might be bad or good in your eyes, but to cite one aspect of it while completely ignoring the rest is silly. I've thought you were a troll all thread, now I'm convinced of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a complete other topic: I'm thankful for every contribution to this thread. But I have the feeling that most people haven't even read the TL;DR-version. My main point is, that a marine on the field needs to be able to counter camo or it gets frustrating. Not that it is overpowered or underpowered. This may be my fault, because of the threads title. Anyway. I would love to get more comments that focus on the points in the TL;DR-section of the OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate what you're trying to do Necro, I really do. I see your point, as well. I've said it before, the only reasonable argument against Camo is that it isn't fun to play against. Considering how subjective that is, I think these threads exist solely for people to blow off steam over anything else. It's never 'fun' to lose a game because your commander isn't doing their job. Sadly, as Marines, that will happen <i>a lot</i>. If I got bent out of shape every time a new commander got in the chair I'd be a pretzel.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering thanks to a Com getting some Exo suits to chase a fake Onos last night I was able to Solo 3 exos as a single Gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Replay or it didn't happen.
First, pink onos have something like 100 health... a single exo would have made it vanish in about .5 seconds of shooting. If the com actually ordered 3 exos to chase a single Onos (that was real ffs) then the com is mentally handicapped. The Exo's cant even catch up to an Onos that's around a corner, and if they can see a pink onos its going to vanish in a split second.
lastly, you didn't solo 3 exo's as a gorge and live, or if you did, you're only highlighting how really terrible the marines were... which again points to the root problem with your position that good marines still lose to camo so badly there's a need for some sort of change.
----
Shade evo is 15, veil is 5, camo is 10... so I shorted the cost by 5... that actually supports my point more.
<!--quoteo(post=2049876:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:33 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shade evo is 15, veil is 5, camo is 10... so I shorted the cost by 5... that actually supports my point more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aw darn it, you ruined the surprise!
You touched on a subject near and dear to my heart, which is that hallucinations are pretty useless precisely because of three things.
1) They only have 10% health compared to a 'real' unit. That's a unit <i>without</i> carapace, I might add.
2) They behave like a computer. This mostly means they'll either jiggle around a location doing nothing, or standing still in a location and doing nothing. Since even a whiff of bullets make them disappear on top of that, they are ineffective. At absolute <i>best</i> they can make a Marines commander beacon or you can cover your 'real' skulks that uncloak on a power node for perhaps half a second. Those tactics are the only 'advanced' part of Hallucinations, and the Marines commander might get suspicious when there are four Onos in his base yet nothings taking damage. <i>Especially if he knows you already went Camo first, and the Onos are in his base at the five minute mark.</i>
3) Hallucinations disappear instantly with one scan. If you cover them with ink, they still die to 10 or less LMG bullets. Basically, a Hydra <i>or</i> a clog are both more useful on their own than hallucinations. Together they are <i>far</i> better. Add bile bomb and a nearby shift and they're...ok I think you get the point. And while yes, a Hallucination doesn't take up a team member, they are also so close to being completely useless that it will make a difference in maybe 1 out of 100 games. (That also discounts the fact that it actually costs T.Res to upgrade to Hallucinations. Even one whip is more valuable than upgrading Hallucinations. Another team upgrade is even <i>more</i> valuable.)
So basically, the only part of the Shade hive that is effective or useful to <i>most</i> intermediate or better players is Silence. Silence is not worth going Shade hive all on it's own, for all the same reasons Camouflage isn't worth it. <i>Even together</i> those two upgrades put you in a bad place mid-game. If you've won by then with cloaking, it was worth the gamble. If not it's going to be a long game, and most of your team will probably F4 or quit the server after they realize their gamble lost.
Maybe if you forced people to sit through a 10 minute failed game instead of just quitting when this happens they would go Camo first less. <b>I am not suggesting they do that.</b> Just pointing out that there are <i>some</i> people that feel justified jumping sever to server doing this until they find a place with enough new players to troll. (Especially now, after the steam sale.)
Comments
You mention 14 camo wins like it offers any validity to you or your ability to play. Going shade hive probably reflects least on the alien commander than any other player on the game of what the outcome will be. Are your aliens competant? OK. Are the marines a bit too incompetant? OK. Thats the real focus here. Shade can hurt ress needed for some scans, the amount of scanning you force early on dictates the flow of the game, along with.. did those marines win the fight there? Because once you take a point and build it up, it makes the biggest impact vs. camo, as your tools become real useless thereafter.
I find camo annoying to deal with, but thats it. I dont recommend it as a useful option, its not hard to deal with.
Know what the end result has been, according to the only stats you're able to see as a player?
Aliens are winning <i>more than ever</i>.
Now, I'd be the first to point out that NS2Stats is a <i>horrible</i> tool to try and use. That's why the developers have their own stats that we <i>can not</i> see as players. Would I like to see those stats? You bet I would.
I'm just pointing to the fact that there is essentially zero information beyond random peoples experience to base any nerfs on. That random experience has resulted in no consensus community view. There are complainers, haters, L2P'ers, apologists, and those that don't care either way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The lack of community consensus is not for lack of statistics but despite them, due to personal bias and misinterpretation of those numbers. You are right, ns2stats has its flaws, but it's the best we have and it is still superior to anecdote. That win rates continue to shift in the aliens' favor despite nerfs doesn't mean the numbers are not representative.
There are factors beyond patch notes like learning curve, metagame changes, fingers pointing at hitreg, etc. This game is no Starcraft where strategies are replicated almost instantly due to battlenet and the good exposure of high profile games, you can't just tweak one number in isolation to get rapid iteration thanks to a huge player base.
<!--quoteo(post=2049451:date=Dec 21 2012, 02:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe the skill floor required for Marines command is simply too much for most players. I think that the nerfs required for aliens to lower that skill floor are the worst possible solution though. It doesn't 'balance' anything to nerf camo, it removes it from the game. This might be fine, since the Marines commander will have less to worry about.
The flip side of that is the Aliens commander has less to worry about too, and he already doesn't have much to worry about. This is one step closer to the eventual automation of the Aliens command. It's already so easy that a simple computer program could command as well as an intermediate human. Lets just go whole hog and get rid of him entirely since predictability and linear progression are what every new player seems to want from the Aliens.
If that's what you need to play Marines commander well, then perhaps you should tell that to all the experienced Marines commanders that don't have any problems fighting cloaking aliens. Since you're not listening to them though, I doubt they'll listen to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Camo is a one time choice for khammanders who suffer from a lack of things to do and an ongoing responsibility for marine comms that already have their hands full. How is that anything but fuel for fire? But even if it did help the problem - which by the way is systemic to the game because it is rooted in low level design choices that can't be corrected by such superficial changes -, that doesn't justify an ability that makes things even worse somewhere else.
There were many suggestions that aren't as drastic as the complete removal of camo or a nerf that would relegate it to oblivion. I think - I hope - nobody wants it to be gone for good, it goes too well with the theme of the game. The most common denominator of all the suggestions was to give the individual marine a fighting chance, and the reason is easy to see: Having to rely on your comm to function better is perfectly ok, having to rely on your comm to function at all, not so much.
..
Now think of how foot soldiers are affected by camo: Sneaking around on walls, finding dark areas to hide, setting up ambushes; a lot of work went into making maps that accommodate this hide and seek. Frantically emptying magazines trying to track skulks that rush us; the thrill of dodging bullets left and right, looking to be as unpredictable as possible while closing our distance to marines; I would say these are pretty integral to how the game plays ideally. Which camo castrates. It utterly dumbs down skulk gameplay and frustrates marines who can't do anything to counter it without their comm.
And by anything I mean anything. Shooting into thin air hoping to hit a skulk in a room is not a counter, it is blind luck. Moving in pairs to help each other is not a counter, skulks can do that too. And if they are worth their salt, they use their victim as cover from the marine that's covering. Moving in groups is not a counter, it is a prerequisite to give your comm a chance to counter it. Because he will bleed tres if he has to scan constantly on several fronts. However if he is incompetent you are still SOL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 for best contribution to the subject.
Word. Still think camo is op tho. :3
Using a flawed statistic is worse than using no statistics at all. It makes people think you have a point that's grounded in data, when the data provided by NS2Stats is completely irrelevant. (Especially in discussion of an untraceable metric, like shade first wins) It includes non-official maps and non-official mods in it's data which pretty much invalidates anything that rests on that data.
NS2Stats is meant to engorge e-peens, not provided quality win rate metrics. It isn't even great at engorging, since you might be #1 at Combat but fail every time you try to play vanilla NS2.
That's really just arguing the data, and not camo as a viable strategy. The fact is there is <i>no</i> data that the community has access to in order to make an informed decision on if a nerf is actually needed, or will actually make any difference what-so-ever.
That's pretty much why every 'Camo is OP' thread is made of pure, unadulterated fail. You can argue it isn't fun, but you can't argue that it wins or loses matches in any meaningful way.
Camo just doesn't compare in 'brokenness' to other strategies that have been nerfed or excised entirely since release. It's fine if it gets nerfed because it won't make a difference to me. If anything, it will silence the n00bs on my team that demand camo first and rage quit when I go with the most viable long-term build order. You know, the one that win's in every situation instead of a niche? (I don't mean to imply Shift/Crag/Shade is unbeatable. I merely state that it's the most efficient build order possible no matter the skill on the other team.)
You realize you can filter all this crap out, right?
If you want to look at vanilla games on vanilla maps, you can do that. It takes about a minute.
If you want to look at vanilla games on vanilla maps, you can do that. It takes about a minute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so use those filters and you end up with 53% Aliens and 46% Marines since build 235. Nevermind the huge influx of new players, or the fact it takes into account roughly 400 games total out of <i>thousands</i>.
Mods and custom maps are easily filtered out, and just doing that one thing brings things to almost 50/50 win rates in 235.
I don't argue that, because it's still a flawed metric since NS2Stats doesn't track what you used to win. If everyone truly abuses some imaginary superior Camo strategy, that would be the only way to tell.
As it stands, it's people crying 'nerf' because they were curb stomped or are curb stomping in n00blicious pub games. All the evidence in the world wouldn't change these peoples mind about Camo, but they will eventually bump noses with a team that proves them wrong. I'm sure then they'll just blame their n00b team though, because obviously the loss couldn't have <i>anything</i> to do with their immaculate 'strategy'.
the more you know...
the more you know...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only true if there's an assumption of similarity between the sample size and the greater population.
In this instance, modded servers that use NS2Stats are dubious as an assumption of similarity. It's more likely that better players will gravitate towards servers that track performance, as poor players are less likely to want to track performance until they're good enough to compete. That is, of course, an opinion much like the other useless opinions in this thread.
Mods and custom maps are easily filtered out, and just doing that one thing brings things to almost 50/50 win rates in 235.
I don't argue that, because it's still a flawed metric since NS2Stats doesn't track what you used to win. If everyone truly abuses some imaginary superior Camo strategy, that would be the only way to tell.
As it stands, it's people crying 'nerf' because they were curb stomped or are curb stomping in n00blicious pub games. All the evidence in the world wouldn't change these peoples mind about Camo, but they will eventually bump noses with a team that proves them wrong. I'm sure then they'll just blame their n00b team though, because obviously the loss couldn't have <i>anything</i> to do with their immaculate 'strategy'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just took a sample size of ~24 hours, or 200 games. Let's try going back 2 weeks because nothing important has changed in that time. Now we get back to the marine winrate of 38% with a sample size of ~3800 games.
I also agree that NS2Stats cannot show that individual strategies is OP or balanced. That doesn't make it a "flawed statistic," as you described it. NS2Stats also has the build order vs win/loss information. It just isn't presented in a fashion where one could reasonably access the data. NS2Stats (or someone else) could compile this data to show win/loss of various upgrade first builds.
That's a pretty powerful tool.
You are aware several maps have had a lot of changes, right? I'd say that's pretty significant. Not to mention further optimization and ability changes, or several exploits that were fixed specifically with cloaking and shade structures? Of course, any statistic using a massive influx of clueless players is bound to be flawed. So maybe this is the proof we've been looking for all along in how the game is balanced for clueless teams mindlessly face-surfing into one another?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also agree that NS2Stats cannot show that individual strategies is OP or balanced. That doesn't make it a "flawed statistic," as you described it. NS2Stats also has the build order vs win/loss information. It just isn't presented in a fashion where one could reasonably access the data. NS2Stats (or someone else) could compile this data to show win/loss of various upgrade first builds.
That's a pretty powerful tool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If someone wants to do that in order to prove their point they're more than welcome to. I don't personally give a damn if they nerf Camo or not, I just think it's blown out of proportion and a popular flame topic to boot. The only point I really had was that there are zero numbers to dictate how effective or ineffective camouflage is as a winning strategy. UWE knows though, and I'm sure they'll step in to change it if they start to feel that it's a problem.
Basically, I'm saying put your money where your mouth is if you want real change. If you want to change a game mechanic like Camo you better be ready to prove you have a reason for the change beyond you suck at NS2. Right now, no one can prove anything but everyone can flame everyone else.
So unless you or someone else cares to delve through data you claim exists to prove a point, I'm going to continue to say L2P with the current easily countered cloaking upgrade. It's surprisingly easy to say since the retort the pro-nerfers use is basically 'no <i>you</i> suck' while accusing me of exploiting a tactic that I consider worthless in a serious game. I consider it worthless in a non-serious game too, just to clarify, but I <i>can</i> see how it would be really useful versus a n00b Marine commander. I'd reiterate my argument that anything wins versus a clueless Marines commander, but it will fall on deaf ears.
TL;DR:
Camo sucks if you're good, and it sucks if you're bad, but it's great if you're good and the other team is bad. This is not fun for the crappy players, but would it be any more fun if they shot a whole clip at a celerity lerk, missed every shot, and then died to poison gas they didn't understand? They still miserably fail, and conspicuously miserably fail on top of it. When a guy can go 70-3 in a pub game, should they also be nerfed for shutting the other ridiculously bad team out of playing?
I'm curious what servers you play on and what nickname you play under. I'd love to play with you sometime.
Thanks a lot OP! You puppy-murderer! :(
I'm curious what servers you play on and what nickname you play under. I'd love to play with you sometime.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not curious enough to read my signature, I see.
Generally I play on about a half dozen servers. I like Scareytown and Voogru the best, although lately those have been so full I've just been spinning the wheel in selecting where I play.
Oh, and IBIS server as well. Basically any server I play on that has the 'surrender' vote option I'll give a reasonable shot. Why the 'surrender' mod isn't in the main game is a mystery to me, as it's great at shaving two to five minutes off a crappy already lost game.
My opinion is that Camo should be reworked to be counterable by marines in the field and not by the comm. Make it a partial cloak that is not revealed by scans or observatories, or something along those lines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
unfortunately its been pointed out that partial cloaks would be too easy to texture mod to make it entirely useless
<!--quoteo(post=2049391:date=Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love how in every camo topic you make it sound like Ink and Hallucinations are useful, rather than the only resource sink you're likely to have with a shade hive. Hallucination are, quite literally, the most useless thing the aliens have in their arsenal. Ink is at least <i>situationally</i> useful rather than useless in every possible scenario.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're arguing that something capable of creating a distraction or using 1Tres to force a 3Tres scan is a useless resource sink ?
Strange then what exactly is the observatory considering its minimum spend is 3 Tres per scan ?
<!--quoteo(post=2049391:date=Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Go ahead, nerf camo. It'll be fun having Shift/Crag/Shade every single game ever. I'm serious when I say this. A nerf to camo makes everyone happy. The n00bs that think it's useful will believe they helped, the good players that were frustrated by crappy commanders getting camo first will be happy, and most of all Marine teams will be happy because Aliens now have the same build order 100% of the time. Marines will also not need to worry about changing their strategy, ever.
These are all <u>benefits</u> right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh how I love you attacking new players so often. Its such a great show there. The choice will still be there and just because you always go for one strategy, I look forward to hearing you cry for nerfs to the Marines because the mata game evolves yo counter standard Crag, Shift play
<!--quoteo(post=2049391:date=Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(Do not take my obvious sarcasm as an indicator that I think Camo <i>shouldn't</i> be nerfed. It should. That way the newer players will realize camo had <i>nothing</i> to do with the curb stomping they're constantly at the receiving end of.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No that would be players like you, forming organised teams and going into rookie servers making sure you're all on one team then any objection yelling "L2P NOOBBS" or "Not my Fault you suck"
<!--quoteo(post=2049451:date=Dec 21 2012, 09:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just distilled a half dozen 'nerf camo' threads into one sentence. Congratulations. This is a problem with the Marines team overall, and has <i>nothing</i> to do with the Aliens team. Aliens have been nerfed time and time again across the spectrum from Onos timing, to out-of-combat times, to how well structures work and even <i>how</i> the structures work.
Know what the end result has been, according to the only stats you're able to see as a player?
Aliens are winning <i>more than ever</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because one change didn't solve the problem doesn't mean it wasn't part of the problem or a problem in its own right
<!--quoteo(post=2049451:date=Dec 21 2012, 09:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If that's what you need to play Marines commander well, then perhaps you should tell that to all the experienced Marines commanders that don't have any problems fighting cloaking aliens. Since you're not listening to them though, I doubt they'll listen to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I think you're the only one walking round saying how their 137 hours of command experience makes them the definitive expert on if somethings balanced due to anecdotal evidence from your play time.
When looking at it statistically you can spot the problem of one upgrading costing 15 Tres requiring 15 Tres and 3Tres often after that to counter.
Its easy to spot the issue and you've even called hallucination a resource dump when you can spend as little as 1Tres on them. That's not stats gathered from NS2 stats that's from the wiki / in game itself.
Countering Camo has a higher cost than Camo to run and you can say all you like about how it means you don't get to crag shift so its a disadvantage but as you can delay the Marines upgrades and skulk vs Marine is viable and possible from the start of the game it doesn't create a huge disadvantage for the aliens
<!--quoteo(post=2049473:date=Dec 21 2012, 09:51 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This I will 100% agree with.
At the level of play most people are citing problems with, anything will win though. That's the only disconnect I really see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm starting to question if you got the message of that episode of extra credits as it pointed out the issue with having a very powerful strategy that works well for up to a certain skill level and that skill level being beyond the point new strategies were meant to have been developed by the player not simply the reliance on that one idea.
The reason the wheels come off Camo higher up is people don't get how to use shade hives that well beyond Camo, Silence and Shade plant passives. Heck by the sound of it you've barely used hallucination yourself otherwise you'd get the tactical options it gives by having the enemy chasing ghosts.
Wall of quoted text. Not going to read.
I don't know if you know this or not; Lerks can fly at full speed with camo. All you do is start gliding and slow yourself down; you can achieve that by hitting a wall, the ceiling, or flying straight up for a little. Don't let go of space, after you're cloaked you can glide up and then down to gain all of your speed back.
This makes lerks with camo easily on par with cele lerks.
I tend to only do verbose-mode posts. ;)
Take the time to read it, it's not that hard.
--------------------------------------------------
I'm saying that if marines detect a shade first build from the aliens, the marines SHOULD rush the alien hive. Sometime in the first minute or two, some marine should suicide into the alien hive to see what tech they have. This should dictate marine strategic goals as much as knowing where the primary hive is IMO.
The reason that marines should rush the alien hive on a shade first build is that there is too great a chance of an alien rush on the marine base, and because tactically it makes more sense to fight aliens who rely on stealth in a place where stealth is of no advantage. Without combat upgrades, and no way to shift-egg or heal-soak out of a push, the aliens are at their most defenseless at or near their hive.
I only play EU servers, shade first fails there more often than not in my experience. Most common failures are realted to mid game alien weakness and lack of harassment or because we got our hive rushed and egg-locked.
My point about marine teams that lose to camo first tech being bad at the game isn't a catch-all... obviously the aliens could have just been better or exploited camo to a greater degree, but in general its not hard to counter camo as marine by simply being god damn aggressive. One thing that I always laugh at is how marine players slow down because of camo... trying to listen for any sound, notice any movement. THEY ARE INVISIBLE AND SILENT RETARDS! You know what works better? Sprinting. A cloaked skulk can't keep up with a marine who is moving quickly through an area, which forces the alien to let him go or break cloak. If that alien isn't already right next to the marine, it just turned into a regular engagement with a naked skulk... aim-shoot-win.
Math fail and I'm sure you don't understand opportunity cost then. The cost of Camo is 25 total. The cost of an Obs is 15 Total. The theory is that as the game plays out, over time the 3 res scans will eventually pass the 25 cost of camo and and at that point you've actually paid for the cost of the camo upgrade.
However, choosing shade/camo first has consequences for the alien tech path that building an Obs doesn't. Marines will have an Obs in base regardless of your tech choice. So because it was an obligatory cost for marines, its not factored into the cost of the alien decision for the purpose of analysis. That makes the total cost of Shade/Camo 25 and the cost to marines 0. That makes the first 7 scans for marines used to specifically counter camo essentially free.
Now, for the marine commander, there's a new set of variables that also go into fighting the war you picked. For one, the arms lab isn't really as important since LMG's will continue to destroy skulks without cara for quite some time, and properly scanned groups shouldn't need armor upgrades either. The later arms lab translates to more obs at important areas which reduce the number of "free" scans needed to counter your tech path.
Also, because shotguns don't need to be researched until fades usually, there's no reason to buy them early game anyway. But, because Fades may be arriving before cara, the need for shotguns can be delayed further or, if not, may wind up costing you 50 res lifeforms for a much reduced cost. This either translates to another obs (and following the logic of free-scans) and the extension of the "free scan" pool further.
The cost of countering camo isn't the base cost of the tech vs. the base cost of its obvious counter... these things don't exist in a vacuum. The choice of shade first impacts so many more elements of the mid game you're overlooking that I wonder how you come to this decision except for the fact that camo-first wins result from rush-mechanics and not from normal game play that goes well into the mid game.
Properly run marine teams will either win early, or win later vs. shade first but have a high chance of losing between 2-5 minutes.
I for one like the idea of having a rush build in the game. I think since this is an RTS at its core, rushing should be an option. I think shade first is a fine example of that option in the game and so I really don't think it should be nerfed at all because it's clearly not imbalanced. Its strong vs. rookies to the point of seeming imbalanced, but I believe that rookies will continue to struggle against cara skulks or shift-pressure too.
Finally, again... shade chambers have an almost negligible effect on the game. Unless you are seeing some amazing ink-hallucination strategies, please stop with this theorycraft. Just because something seems totally awesome doesn't make it so on the assumption that someone with god-like skills can bring it forth. Show me where anyone upgraded a shade in any match where the halluciations made any difference and I'll show you 10 games where they didn't do a damn thing but waste alien res.
I just played a match last night were I made an army of pink aliens and shoved them in the marine base just because it was funny... one or two pink onos got shot up and that was it... they don't act like hostile aliens, they don't move like hostile aliens, and they show up in numbers and at times that don't make any logical sense. They are gimmicks, not tactics. Ink counters Arcs, thats what they are good for and I've seen it used to great effect when pushing sorting from deposite, but otherwise it's too hard to keep up with a marine scan that always decloaks first and gets one arc volley off... it stalls, it doesn't stop, arcs.
while you are right about basicly everything you say there is also the opportunity cost of Aliens to be accounted for:
on pubs the khamm normally gets away with placing at least 2 rts, maybe even 3 before going for celerity/cara and then getting another rt and the second hive. So basically you can spend 30-~45 of your initial res on rts and the required cysts.
If you go for camo you have to go shade hive + veil + camo which adds up to 30 res. So you initially can only build 1 more harvester+required cysts.
So lets say you need 30 res for camo, 10 for rt and 10 for cysts for 2 rts, you have to wait for another 10 res until you get this third rt up.
At the time your 2nd rt finishes and you get 2 res per 6 seconds, a non-camo khamm would already receive 3 or 4 res per tick. From this res advantage this khamm can get a quicker second hive while still providing the upgrade he goes for.
So camo basically is a sprint start for aliens, giving a combat advantage early on at the cost of combat disadvantage in mid game(before 3 Hives) and the possibility of a very crippling disadvante late game (if you dont get 3 hives up) as well as an economical disadvantage.
this is the same as 6pool/4Gate in SC2. Of course you get superior fighting power very early in game. BUT you sacrifice early workers and therefor cripple yourself if you really dont do damage with you early advantage.
Many SC2 beginners react to these pushes the same as people here to camo. They loose some stuff and get into this "I'm dead anyways, he has so many units already" mindset. What they don't see is that the player rushing thinks "omg ######, I HAVE to kill him now, because otherwise he will totally crush me in 2 minutes".
But- I already know the answer: "OMG gnoarch, you dont have any clue, camo is just too strong [...]blablabla[...]expensive[...]scan[...]required[...]skill[...]uneven[...]nerf!!!1111"
To this I can only reply: I'm glad I'll be away from my computer for the next 2 weeks so when I come back you will have another thing you will be 100% sure is totally too strong/weak/no fun/stupid.
Thanks a lot OP! You puppy-murderer! :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm more of the cat guy. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=2049795:date=Dec 22 2012, 03:03 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm saying that if marines detect a shade first build from the aliens, the marines SHOULD rush the alien hive. Sometime in the first minute or two, some marine should suicide into the alien hive to see what tech they have. This should dictate marine strategic goals as much as knowing where the primary hive is IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rushing a hive early is an overall good tactic. No matter what upgrade the aliens chose. Sure, a shift may help you against egg-locks and craigs may force the marines to kill them before the hive. But saying that a hive rush is the most viable option against shade is out of topic. It is overall a good tactic.
Anyway. I agree with you, that you can win with camo against a bad marine team. (I wrote this already in the OP) But I propose also, that you can win easily with camo against a equally skilled marine team. I'm sad, that I hadn't the opportunity to show you the power of camo last night in the games, because of the huge skill imbalance over all the games.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>On a complete other topic: I'm thankful for every contribution to this thread. But I have the feeling that most people haven't even read the TL;DR-version. My main point is, that a marine on the field needs to be able to counter camo or it gets frustrating. Not that it is overpowered or underpowered. This may be my fault, because of the threads title. Anyway. I would love to get more comments that focus on the points in the TL;DR-section of the OP.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I'm guessing I'm missing something as Camo alone is
5 for veil
10 for Camo evolution
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, choosing shade/camo first has consequences for the alien tech path that building an Obs doesn't. Marines will have an Obs in base regardless of your tech choice. So because it was an obligatory cost for marines, its not factored into the cost of the alien decision for the purpose of analysis. That makes the total cost of Shade/Camo 25 and the cost to marines 0. That makes the first 7 scans for marines used to specifically counter camo essentially free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except and here's the turn about, people are saying you have to hold two tech points.
Even taking the Marines will have obs so there's no cost it, to do as people are saying here then yes there is a cost applied as you have to build 1 obs per base. Which without Camo isn't so much of a problem as you can just rely on turrets to an extend to hold areas.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, for the marine commander, there's a new set of variables that also go into fighting the war you picked. For one, the arms lab isn't really as important since LMG's will continue to destroy skulks without cara for quite some time, and properly scanned groups shouldn't need armor upgrades either. The later arms lab translates to more obs at important areas which reduce the number of "free" scans needed to counter your tech path.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is assuming the Aliens don't predict the scans , don't use hallucinations to force a fake scan then move in after and don't ink the place. Oh as that Aliens don't get a second have and cara up.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, because shotguns don't need to be researched until fades usually, there's no reason to buy them early game anyway. But, because Fades may be arriving before cara, the need for shotguns can be delayed further or, if not, may wind up costing you 50 res lifeforms for a much reduced cost. This either translates to another obs (and following the logic of free-scans) and the extension of the "free scan" pool further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait cara fades.
Honestly you don't need a cara fade to be effective, just have blink and then you can run in and run out again.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The cost of countering camo isn't the base cost of the tech vs. the base cost of its obvious counter... these things don't exist in a vacuum. The choice of shade first impacts so many more elements of the mid game you're overlooking that I wonder how you come to this decision except for the fact that camo-first wins result from rush-mechanics and not from normal game play that goes well into the mid game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at the strategies suggested.
The present Camo counter requires Marines to split up as one big group defending their RT points while the commander scans all of them and they push the hive. Essentially now its got to the point where people are combining all the counters suggested. The problem is they don't work like that many being mutually exclusive.
Most if not all of the suggested plans will either cost more RT due to scans or not defending RTs or time now in this game Time can = Resources so by causing the marines to be a slower moving unit that time costs more resources.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Properly run marine teams will either win early, or win later vs. shade first but have a high chance of losing between 2-5 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Properly run Alien teams can win any moment they like mid - late game with shade
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I for one like the idea of having a rush build in the game. I think since this is an RTS at its core, rushing should be an option. I think shade first is a fine example of that option in the game and so I really don't think it should be nerfed at all because it's clearly not imbalanced. Its strong vs. rookies to the point of seeming imbalanced, but I believe that rookies will continue to struggle against cara skulks or shift-pressure too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See the Extra credits episode listed.
It explains why at present people are saying shade is weak.
In Rookie level people learn how good Camo is and with no reason to switch until later or learn they don't have too.
By the time they reach the level its not effective then they will have missed out on other things they could and should have learned.
Camo is failing because its effective for such a long time that people aren't learning anything else about shade hives, you can even see it in some people here saying how poor shade hives are. You know why they are saying this ? Because the wheels have fallen off their wagon and due to Shift Crag being the next easiest to do they are. Rather than looking and learning about other aspects of shade hives.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, again... shade chambers have an almost negligible effect on the game. Unless you are seeing some amazing ink-hallucination strategies, please stop with this theorycraft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok please stop with the Theorycraft yourself as I'm pointing out theres an imbalance not creating a perfect strategy here. I'm pointing out shade is viable and potentially unbalanced not that it is the most efficient perfect win all method which so many are here touting Crag shift combo as.
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because something seems totally awesome doesn't make it so on the assumption that someone with god-like skills can bring it forth. Show me where anyone upgraded a shade in any match where the halluciations made any difference and I'll show you 10 games where they didn't do a damn thing but waste alien res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And a perfectly played game shouldn't be required simply to counter anything other than a perfectly played game.
At present so many are saying if Marines do this that and the other, the problem is this relies for most of them on it working perfectly.
Show me one game where Macs made a difference and I'll show you 10 the same way. You know how this is possible ? because it happens just like people being killed stupidly a Onos. To say something isn't a valid counter due to the skill level being too high on it is ridiculous when the arguement is being used that Camo can be counterd by a good team with skill. Surely that means any counter to Camo is also invalid due to it requiring more skill to counter than to use ?
<!--quoteo(post=2049796:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just played a match last night were I made an army of pink aliens and shoved them in the marine base just because it was funny... one or two pink onos got shot up and that was it... they don't act like hostile aliens, they don't move like hostile aliens, and they show up in numbers and at times that don't make any logical sense. They are gimmicks, not tactics. Ink counters Arcs, thats what they are good for and I've seen it used to great effect when pushing sorting from deposite, but otherwise it's too hard to keep up with a marine scan that always decloaks first and gets one arc volley off... it stalls, it doesn't stop, arcs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering thanks to a Com getting some Exo suits to chase a fake Onos last night I was able to Solo 3 exos as a single Gorge. So your anecdote points to them being gimmicks mine points to them being highly powerful in the right hands.
Ink can really mes with Marines when they've scanned as often then scan and move in. Ink being deployed suddenly kills any advantage they had by knowing where the enemy was.
Again the Meta game is evolving and no matter how much you say how weak shade is, in the right hands that understands how to use it its just as viable with the cloak evolution itself being unbalanced.
so marines also should be able to counter onos, lerk and fade on the field aswell?
The core of NS is that in some situations as a marine you are just ######ed if you are not with your fellow marines/if comm doesnt help you. You certainly cant win against an onos and most likely will get eaten by an camo skulk if you stand around long enough for him to bite you.
Thats just part of the whole Idea of marines against aliens. there are enough FPS where you alwys can just shoot your enemy in the head and thus win against him regardless of his weapon/equip. NS is different. Thats the point. It is INTENDED that you ###### your pants if youre alone or in pairs in alien Territory and they have cloak. OMG is this whole concept of asymmetric gameplay as well as requirement of teamplay to win so hard to grasp?!?
Why dont we just remove everything. Maps are squares or maybe cricles with some crates for cover randomly scattered about. Then we remove aliens and Marines can shhot marines in Deathmatch mode. Lets even make all models the same bright green color so nobody can ruin the fun for others by hiding and camping somewhere.
Then remove everthing except pistol so random gun spread as well as noobtubin with the gl is impossible.
Then everything is perfectly balanced.
They can.
Exo
Good shooting / jetpack
Shotgun + weapons 3 and good shooting or jeptack, or Grenading the area
<!--quoteo(post=2049838:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:09 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 22 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The core of NS is that in some situations as a marine you are just ######ed if you are not with your fellow marines/if comm doesnt help you. You certainly cant win against an onos and most likely will get eaten by an camo skulk if you stand around long enough for him to bite you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless he ctrl stealth drops next to you.
<!--quoteo(post=2049838:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:09 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 22 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats just part of the whole Idea of marines against aliens. there are enough FPS where you alwys can just shoot your enemy in the head and thus win against him regardless of his weapon/equip. NS is different. Thats the point. It is INTENDED that you ###### your pants if youre alone or in pairs in alien Territory and they have cloak. OMG is this whole concept of asymmetric gameplay as well as requirement of teamplay to win so hard to grasp?!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However plenty of suggestions have been put forward in other threads that would require teamwork and the reply for most was "OMG you want to Nerf Camo its useless as is how dare you L2P you noobs"
Exo
Good shooting / jetpack
Shotgun + weapons 3 and good shooting or jeptack, or Grenading the area<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wtf? Obviously my point is that a single normal marine cant compete with Fade/Onos which to a certain extend may also true for a camo skulk.
The point is that this is INTENTIONAL.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless he ctrl stealth drops next to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well lets hope all the waiting at the ceiling was worth the kill of the rambo marine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However plenty of suggestions have been put forward in other threads that would require teamwork and the reply for most was "OMG you want to Nerf Camo its useless as is how dare you L2P you noobs"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "plenty" suggestions are either make aliens weaker by making them not to move while cloaked or only semi invisible which would lead to shade being even worse than no upgrade because noobs would actually think camo would bring an advantage and waste res and time towards something that makes them even worse than normal.
The other suggestion is to make some kind of uncloak device which has 1000 problems and most certainly would either make marines weaker because they had to spend res on something pointless or make camo completely obsolete because it would be hardcountered once spotted.
And btw. There were many suggestions made to you and others how to play against camo effectively and all you did was "OMG Camo imbalanced and no fun to play against... Needs more skill from marine than alien blahblahblah"
And btw. II: When players that have more experiance and far more gametime(not neccessarily talking about myself) tell you that something is not op and you probably only need to learn the game a little better you really should consider if maybe perhaps mayhaps there could be at least one little small tiny spark of truth to what they are saying.
And btw. III: Nobody just said "omgz l2p noob". Several people really tried to elaborate why camo is quite easy to counter and all that. The frustrating thing is that people who obviously dont have that much knowledge about the game JUST WONT LISTEN and insist on their opinion probably spending more time here making up new imba-camo-scenarios instead of L2P.
Seeing as you missed it, I did go through most of the counters and pointed out the issues with using them and how easy it is to simply counter those. Not that anyone pro camo seems to be bothering to read any more
<!--quoteo(post=2049850:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:53 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 22 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And btw. II: When players that have more experiance and far more gametime(not neccessarily talking about myself) tell you that something is not op and you probably only need to learn the game a little better you really should consider if maybe perhaps mayhaps there could be at least one little small tiny spark of truth to what they are saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With More game time than me
2 have said that.
over the course of all the threads
5 have pointed out there is an issue of some kind
Over the course of the multiple threads that have happened.
<!--quoteo(post=2049850:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:53 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 22 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And btw. III: Nobody just said "omgz l2p noob". Several people really tried to elaborate why camo is quite easy to counter and all that. The frustrating thing is that people who obviously dont have that much knowledge about the game JUST WONT LISTEN and insist on their opinion probably spending more time here making up new imba-camo-scenarios instead of L2P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I've pointed out multiple times how it is an issue and yet I keep being told on no obs is a hard counter to Camo. When for it to be the costs would balance out.
I'm just waiting for someone to bring up my NS2 stats now as its going to be so funny, as it turns out most of the servers I frequent aren't supplying stats to that site lol
I can clearly see an issue with Camo on multiple levels not least the fact its a tactic that's very effective until a point and the people being stomped using it is because up until then it was so effective for them they they didn't learn to go beyond it and use other aspects of the shade hive.
Did no-one on the "Camo is fine" side actually comprehend what was said in the extra credits video ?
5 for veil
10 for Camo evolution<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are forgetting another cost. I'm not going to tell you what it is though, since you're so pro you can't be bothered to listen to people with literally hundreds of hours more experience than you. Lets see if you can figure out what you missed!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I've pointed out multiple times how it is an issue and yet I keep being told on no obs is a hard counter to Camo. When for it to be the costs would balance out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You keep citing cost as proof. Trouble pointed out how totally and utterly wrong you are. I'll help him out here.
No costs will ever 'equal out' between Marines and Aliens. Marines, by design, cost more resources than Aliens do. Some structures are the same cost, but when you get down to the nuts and bolts there is an <i>astronomical</i> difference in costs between the two teams. How do you explain that? It's like it was <i>designed to be different</i>. That difference might be bad or good in your eyes, but to cite one aspect of it while completely ignoring the rest is silly. I've thought you were a troll all thread, now I'm convinced of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a complete other topic: I'm thankful for every contribution to this thread. But I have the feeling that most people haven't even read the TL;DR-version. My main point is, that a marine on the field needs to be able to counter camo or it gets frustrating. Not that it is overpowered or underpowered. This may be my fault, because of the threads title. Anyway. I would love to get more comments that focus on the points in the TL;DR-section of the OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate what you're trying to do Necro, I really do. I see your point, as well. I've said it before, the only reasonable argument against Camo is that it isn't fun to play against. Considering how subjective that is, I think these threads exist solely for people to blow off steam over anything else. It's never 'fun' to lose a game because your commander isn't doing their job. Sadly, as Marines, that will happen <i>a lot</i>. If I got bent out of shape every time a new commander got in the chair I'd be a pretzel.
Replay or it didn't happen.
First, pink onos have something like 100 health... a single exo would have made it vanish in about .5 seconds of shooting. If the com actually ordered 3 exos to chase a single Onos (that was real ffs) then the com is mentally handicapped. The Exo's cant even catch up to an Onos that's around a corner, and if they can see a pink onos its going to vanish in a split second.
lastly, you didn't solo 3 exo's as a gorge and live, or if you did, you're only highlighting how really terrible the marines were... which again points to the root problem with your position that good marines still lose to camo so badly there's a need for some sort of change.
----
Shade evo is 15, veil is 5, camo is 10... so I shorted the cost by 5... that actually supports my point more.
Aw darn it, you ruined the surprise!
You touched on a subject near and dear to my heart, which is that hallucinations are pretty useless precisely because of three things.
1) They only have 10% health compared to a 'real' unit. That's a unit <i>without</i> carapace, I might add.
2) They behave like a computer. This mostly means they'll either jiggle around a location doing nothing, or standing still in a location and doing nothing. Since even a whiff of bullets make them disappear on top of that, they are ineffective. At absolute <i>best</i> they can make a Marines commander beacon or you can cover your 'real' skulks that uncloak on a power node for perhaps half a second. Those tactics are the only 'advanced' part of Hallucinations, and the Marines commander might get suspicious when there are four Onos in his base yet nothings taking damage. <i>Especially if he knows you already went Camo first, and the Onos are in his base at the five minute mark.</i>
3) Hallucinations disappear instantly with one scan. If you cover them with ink, they still die to 10 or less LMG bullets. Basically, a Hydra <i>or</i> a clog are both more useful on their own than hallucinations. Together they are <i>far</i> better. Add bile bomb and a nearby shift and they're...ok I think you get the point. And while yes, a Hallucination doesn't take up a team member, they are also so close to being completely useless that it will make a difference in maybe 1 out of 100 games. (That also discounts the fact that it actually costs T.Res to upgrade to Hallucinations. Even one whip is more valuable than upgrading Hallucinations. Another team upgrade is even <i>more</i> valuable.)
So basically, the only part of the Shade hive that is effective or useful to <i>most</i> intermediate or better players is Silence. Silence is not worth going Shade hive all on it's own, for all the same reasons Camouflage isn't worth it. <i>Even together</i> those two upgrades put you in a bad place mid-game. If you've won by then with cloaking, it was worth the gamble. If not it's going to be a long game, and most of your team will probably F4 or quit the server after they realize their gamble lost.
Maybe if you forced people to sit through a 10 minute failed game instead of just quitting when this happens they would go Camo first less. <b>I am not suggesting they do that.</b> Just pointing out that there are <i>some</i> people that feel justified jumping sever to server doing this until they find a place with enough new players to troll. (Especially now, after the steam sale.)