<!--quoteo(post=2049876:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:33 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Replay or it didn't happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do believe as you made your claim first you're obliged to back your claim up first so lets see this replay of a commander wasting all the team res on useless hallucinations then
<!--quoteo(post=2049876:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:33 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First, pink onos have something like 100 health... a single exo would have made it vanish in about .5 seconds of shooting. If the com actually ordered 3 exos to chase a single Onos (that was real ffs) then the com is mentally handicapped. The Exo's cant even catch up to an Onos that's around a corner, and if they can see a pink onos its going to vanish in a split second.
lastly, you didn't solo 3 exo's as a gorge and live, or if you did, you're only highlighting how really terrible the marines were... which again points to the root problem with your position that good marines still lose to camo so badly there's a need for some sort of change.
----
Shade evo is 15, veil is 5, camo is 10... so I shorted the cost by 5... that actually supports my point more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ah but by your own logic and arguement you discount the 15 as obviously an alien will have a hive and evolve it so as such the 15 cost is not accounted the same as the 1st obs cost isn't either.
<!--quoteo(post=2049875:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are forgetting another cost. I'm not going to tell you what it is though, since you're so pro you can't be bothered to listen to people with literally hundreds of hours more experience than you. Lets see if you can figure out what you missed!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Strange how you only bring the cost up when someone else brings it in when surely in 137 hours com experience mainly alien you'd know this. Also when did I say I was pro ? I thought I was a noob who needed to L2P ?
<!--quoteo(post=2049875:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You keep citing cost as proof. Trouble pointed out how totally and utterly wrong you are. I'll help him out here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> trouble is using some one else's logic you missed the logical flaw too.
Or have you ever seen aliens take 3 hives and evolve none of them ?
<!--quoteo(post=2049875:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No costs will ever 'equal out' between Marines and Aliens. Marines, by design, cost more resources than Aliens do. Some structures are the same cost, but when you get down to the nuts and bolts there is an <i>astronomical</i> difference in costs between the two teams. How do you explain that? It's like it was <i>designed to be different</i>. That difference might be bad or good in your eyes, but to cite one aspect of it while completely ignoring the rest is silly. I've thought you were a troll all thread, now I'm convinced of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Strange isn't it.
Fade = 50 Pres Exo single = 50 Pres
Onos = 75 Pres Exo double = 75 Pres
Almost deliberate there.
Harvester = 10 Extractor = 10
very strange.
<!--quoteo(post=2049883:date=Dec 22 2012, 08:06 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 08:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Hallucinations disappear instantly with one scan. If you cover them with ink, they still die to 10 or less LMG bullets. Basically, a Hydra <i>or</i> a clog are both more useful on their own than hallucinations. Together they are <i>far</i> better. Add bile bomb and a nearby shift and they're...ok I think you get the point. And while yes, a Hallucination doesn't take up a team member, they are also so close to being completely useless that it will make a difference in maybe 1 out of 100 games. (That also discounts the fact that it actually costs T.Res to upgrade to Hallucinations. Even one whip is more valuable than upgrading Hallucinations. Another team upgrade is even <i>more</i> valuable.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So the voice of 137 hours com has spoken we all must do as he says for his theory craft is stronger [/sarc]
Again still doesn't make it worthless as its the 1% its the killer
Points being ignored.
- Meta game evolution, as apparently crag shift will forever be the theorycrafted method to win, right ? - Foos strategy of Camo leading to people not developing / adopting other strategies or trying them causing initial stagnation of the metagame thus hitting a point where they have missed the required development, jsut as crag / shift will probably get to - The suggested strategies to counter Camo all have flaws including in one case it being viable against any hive not simply a shade hive - The fact its even more of a Foos strategy with Camo as the only way a Marine can counter it without their commander is using latent psyhic skills while using Camo for Aliens uses player skill more
<!--quoteo(post=2049909:date=Dec 22 2012, 02:48 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 22 2012, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strange how you only bring the cost up when someone else brings it in when surely in 137 hours com experience mainly alien you'd know this. Also when did I say I was pro ? I thought I was a noob who needed to L2P ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's because you brought up costs, and you're wrong. It's this thing called 'replying to an arguement'. I guess your only defense is ad hominum, fortunately for me you're so obviously blinded by rage that I could probably poke you with a stick and you'd explode. That's pretty much what your replies are, rage fueled ignorance.
Oh, and it's 150 hours of commanding on my part now. Where are you sitting? Dismissing my experience as me trying to belittle you is false. I'm telling you that I've played this game <i>a lot</i> longer than you, and I simply tell you this so you know what I say is grounded in the <i>hundreds of hours</i> I've spent playing. If you can't see why a couple of hours isn't enough of a basis to draw a conclusion from I can't help you. It's possible that you're a NS2 savant, and completely understand every nuance of Marines play instantly. Your follow up posts convey an extreme lack of NS2 in game experience.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strange isn't it.
Fade = 50 Pres Exo single = 50 Pres
Onos = 75 Pres Exo double = 75 Pres
Almost deliberate there.
Harvester = 10 Extractor = 10
very strange.
So the voice of 137 hours com has spoken we all must do as he says for his theory craft is stronger [/sarc]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could go pretty far down this rabbit hole.
How about IP's that cost 10 T.Res versus free eggs? (Or if you want to be silly, 5 T.Res for two spawns at a shift)
How about 15 T.Res for a command chair? Or 10 for an armory?
How about a Robotics Factory that costs 15 T.Res, that produces units that cost even more <i>and</i> require you to research upgrades for those same units?
How about an arms lab that costs 170 T.Res for full team upgrades?
Or a phase gate that costs 15 T.Res <i>not including</i> the upgrade and other structure and research required? (25 T.Res total)
Or how about a prototype lab that costs 40 T.Res? What <i>cost</i> does this mirror? Onos can be purchased through P.Res <i>even on one hive</i>. And eggs can be dropped on three hives. Marines can <i>never</i> purchase dual exo's through T.Res, and require research and a 40 T.Res investment, <i>and</i> a second tech point as a prerequisite. Yet through <i>some miracle</i> Marines still end up with Exo's in a veritable <i>ton</i> of games.
Most of these things have no corresponding cost structure on the aliens side of the aisle. So what is your point? That a few units cost the same, while the vast majority of them don't? Please, tell me more about how similar the costs between teams are.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Points being ignored.
- Meta game evolution, as apparently crag shift will forever be the theorycrafted method to win, right ? - Foos strategy of Camo leading to people not developing / adopting other strategies or trying them causing initial stagnation of the metagame thus hitting a point where they have missed the required development, jsut as crag / shift will probably get to - The suggested strategies to counter Camo all have flaws including in one case it being viable against any hive not simply a shade hive - The fact its even more of a Foos strategy with Camo as the only way a Marine can counter it without their commander is using latent psyhic skills while using Camo for Aliens uses player skill more<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) No it's Shift/Crag/Shade that's most effective. If you're being specific.
2) I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. Shift/Crag/Shade is the result of hundreds of hours of experimentation and trial and error. Shade is undeniably <i>more</i> useful now than it was, but not useful enough to radically change the effectiveness of Shift/Crag/Shade. At least it's a viable upgrade now, whereas before I wouldn't even upgrade a third hive to shade. It was more useful to replace a killed shift or crag hive than bother with shade.
3) The flaw in countering Camo effectively is in how good the Marines commander is, and how knowledgeable the Marines players are.
4) Kind of like how you think Ink is effective when it requires psychic foreknowledge of when and where the Marine commander will scan? And how you need a mature shade there <i>already</i> to effectively counter it in that instance? Yet somehow some Marines commanders still manage to do it. This means it's a skill issue. There is no way around this fact.
I'm sorry I wasn't nicer when I told you that you didn't have the experience required to add to this topic. Perhaps me being dismissive is what's led to your rabid hate of Camo, but you being angry at me does not change the game mechanics I've described to you. I will attempt to be nicer in the future when I tell you that you're wrong.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the voice of 137 hours com has spoken we all must do as he says for his theory craft is stronger<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My opinion isn't 'theory craft', it's the result of hundreds of hours of in game experience. If you can't tell the difference between the two, that's really more of your problem than mine.
<!--quoteo(post=2049876:date=Dec 22 2012, 02:33 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shade evo is 15, veil is 5, camo is 10... so I shorted the cost by 5... that actually supports my point more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's always bugged me that different evolution traits cost different amounts to research. It seems like the only reason an upgrade should cost less or more than another is because it is less/more viable/useful than it's counterpart. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with shade. However, I just wish things would all cost the same thing, such that when considering the balance of these upgrades, one should not be made purposefully worse than another just because it's cheaper, or the other way round, in that once should not be made better than another just because it's more expensive. All upgrade structures should be equally viable in some respect, and cost the same amount. If one ability is more viable than the other, then it is constantly rushed over the other ones. E.g. carapace rushed over regen. And in some respects shift/crag is rushed over shade (not because it's not good, but lacks the upgrades to keep it viable in the late game should they not secure a 3rd hive)
Every time I read a camo thread I have to shove a spoon up my ass to distract myself from the pain.
All of these arguments have been retread so many times I could spout them in my sleep. Just give it some time and lets see how the stats play out. Especially with the holiday sale it will be some time before the rookie wave dissipates(or gets better), maybe we should let the current game balance play itself out before we start pushing for changes.
Also, it really is not OP, just a really boring mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's because you brought up costs, and you're wrong. It's this thing called 'replying to an arguement'. I guess your only defense is ad hominum, fortunately for me you're so obviously blinded by rage that I could probably poke you with a stick and you'd explode. That's pretty much what your replies are, rage fueled ignorance. Oh, and it's 150 hours of commanding on my part now. Where are you sitting? Dismissing my experience as me trying to belittle you is false.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fortunately for me it appears you learned very little in those 150 hours, otherwise you'd have been able to spot the logical flaw in the argument you're still now supporting.
Again you need two bases each with an obs for defence according to you. Even going with "Oh you need an obs anyway so its no cost" you can say the same for the aliens "Oh you need to evolve the hive so its a non cost anyway" meaning Camo is still 15 resources to the 15 + 3 per use for Obs But no apparently while for Marines Obs is standard, aliens never evolve their hives ever right ?
Well considering you've spent most of the discussion calling anyone who supports a change to camo as a noob who needs to L2P and completely misrepresenting the arguments then moaning when someone does the same back to you then I'm sitting here watching someone who either A) Doesn't get it B) Is too blinded by his own perceived ability to accept the potential of a problem C) Is just ignorant D) Worried his little pub stomping toy won't work anymore so he can't feel so superior running into Rookie servers and steam rolling them before saying its the Rookies faults for not knowing how to play perfectly.
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm telling you that I've played this game <i>a lot</i> longer than you, and I simply tell you this so you know what I say is grounded in the <i>hundreds of hours</i> I've spent playing. If you can't see why a couple of hours isn't enough of a basis to draw a conclusion from I can't help you.
It's possible that you're a NS2 savant, and completely understand every nuance of Marines play instantly. Your follow up posts convey an extreme lack of NS2 in game experience.
I could go pretty far down this rabbit hole.
How about IP's that cost 10 T.Res versus free eggs? (Or if you want to be silly, 5 T.Res for two spawns at a shift)
How about 15 T.Res for a command chair? Or 10 for an armory?
How about a Robotics Factory that costs 15 T.Res, that produces units that cost even more <i>and</i> require you to research upgrades for those same units?
How about an arms lab that costs 170 T.Res for full team upgrades?
Or a phase gate that costs 15 T.Res <i>not including</i> the upgrade and other structure and research required? (25 T.Res total)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A couple of hours, more like approaching 50 at this point. Though sure sure your anecdotal evidence proves everything right because with 150 hours anecdotal evidence becomes fact right ? [/sarc]
IPs can only be placed and base, initially you get 1 which gives about the same respawn as eggs with two its a permanent increase in respawn capacity. The shift lets you respawn in the field essentially
hives come with eggs once they are up, command chair don't come with IPs by default, Crags cost 10 also Marines ammo health and armour doesn't magically regenerate while alien Stamina health and armour does. You can boost this with shifts and crags but they aren't a requirement.
How about a 2nd hive that requires you to evolve it, place the required structure and research the abilities ?
Probably about on par with the cost of a full Kharr upgraded team its what 80 for the hives 30 for the specialisation 70 for the 1st selection of specialisations. Oh look the Kharr have spent 180 res to be able to have one upgrade in each evolution pathway
Or looking at it another way. Macs repair structures Kharr have to replace cysts. Macs provide a minor defence with EMP whips cost more Arcs can be used as siege weapons, whips can too however at a higher cost per whip but without the research costs etc with it,
celerity ?
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or how about a prototype lab that costs 40 T.Res? What <i>cost</i> does this mirror? Onos can be purchased through P.Res <i>even on one hive</i>. And eggs can be dropped on three hives. Marines can <i>never</i> purchase dual exo's through T.Res, and require research and a 40 T.Res investment, <i>and</i> a second tech point as a prerequisite. Yet through <i>some miracle</i> Marines still end up with Exo's in a veritable <i>ton</i> of games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well considering whats needed to make an Onos effective isn't the same as Exos you can throw in Welders, Stomp research, another 70 resources into the mix. for your calculations
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) No it's Shift/Crag/Shade that's most effective. If you're being specific.
2) I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. Shift/Crag/Shade is the result of hundreds of hours of experimentation and trial and error. Shade is undeniably <i>more</i> useful now than it was, but not useful enough to radically change the effectiveness of Shift/Crag/Shade. At least it's a viable upgrade now, whereas before I wouldn't even upgrade a third hive to shade. It was more useful to replace a killed shift or crag hive than bother with shade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So I'm getting crap for theory crafting while here you're being the definition of theory crafting by saying its possible more than one strategy works while you're saying that Crag shift is the most effective way to play. The fact you have no idea about FOOS strategy really does point to how little attention you've been paying despite the attempt to correct my previous link to the blip.TV version for whatever reason.
I'd suggest you go back and watch over it, though as you've proved you're unwilling to read posts and seemingly too egotistical to enter into debate or bother with other peoples points as shown by you refusing point blank to read a reply before I doubt you'll read this either.
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) The flaw in countering Camo effectively is in how good the Marines commander is, and how knowledgeable the Marines players are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Player skill in = Power out. Worth that equation for Camo and then against Camo and you'l see the issue
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) Kind of like how you think Ink is effective when it requires psychic foreknowledge of when and where the Marine commander will scan? And how you need a mature shade there <i>already</i> to effectively counter it in that instance? Yet somehow some Marines commanders still manage to do it. This means it's a skill issue. There is no way around this fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dunno the big warning and scan indication on the map is good enough for most Khams to deploy ink sure it uncloaks your team but then the ink scews with Marines so much
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry I wasn't nicer when I told you that you didn't have the experience required to add to this topic. Perhaps me being dismissive is what's led to your rabid hate of Camo, but you being angry at me does not change the game mechanics I've described to you. I will attempt to be nicer in the future when I tell you that you're wrong.
My opinion isn't 'theory craft', it's the result of hundreds of hours of in game experience. If you can't tell the difference between the two, that's really more of your problem than mine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No believe me if I were angry it would be far more evident in my replies than at present.
Also how about rather than telling me I'm wrong, you explain why you believe this and stop completely ignoring the points brought up to bring it back to some petty squabble level.
At present the argument has gone like this
Me "I believe X because Y, Z" You "You're wrong" Me "Why when A, B, C" You "Because I say you're wrong and I'm bigger than you" Me "Wait that doesn't discount or disprove A, B or C" You "Thats because you're a noob and I know better" Me "Ok then explain how it disproves A,B or C" You "Because you're a noob and I know better"
<!--quoteo(post=2049875:date=Dec 22 2012, 11:28 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No costs will ever 'equal out' between Marines and Aliens. Marines, by design, cost more resources than Aliens do. Some structures are the same cost, but when you get down to the nuts and bolts there is an <i>astronomical</i> difference in costs between the two teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol.
lets have a look:
I am counting every stucture that is needed to gain every possible upgrade for both teams. I do not counting defense structures like sentrys/whips or PG/shift/shade/crags (but shade/shift upgrade).
Dwavenhobble : Your arguments don't bear out in game. There are exactly zero replays/YT vids showing anything you're talking about. You are aparently not getting these results yourself so it brings us back to a player who sees hidden potential/depth in the game that others don't and arguing its there without evidence (theorycraft vs. experienced play).
I go through with with players like yourself on each RTS board I post on. As entertaining as it is to see someone spin like mad to keep the illusion alive, at some point it becomes work. We're juuuust past that point here. (*in general, not this thread specifically... the whole shade debate across several threads that keep going down the same tired paths)
So, I'm going to fall back on a tried and true way of settling these debates. I'm willing to accept any replay or YouTube evidence you put forward that early camo is game breaking BS that sinks marine teams not swamped in green named players or I'll meet you on any server you like and you can just show me how easy it is. Until I see proof that everything I've actually seen with my own eyes that contradicts your theorycraft, I'm going to sit on my higher ground and just stop rolling reality-boulders down upon you.
I want you to look to this forums own MaximumSquid as an example of providing proof behind his claims of new builds and tactics. Whether or not players agree with him, he doesn't just show up with a thread and a wild tale to tell, he points people to proof (good or bad) and an actual discussion ensues.
Just as a parting offer and example of what I mean : <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyiAtwrP-I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyiAtwrP-I</a> One of my favorite players is in that game, Infantry Portal... I laughed when these guys were talking down about his play... he's one of the best pubbers out there.
<!--quoteo(post=2050202:date=Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dwavenhobble : Your arguments don't bear out in game. There are exactly zero replays/YT vids showing anything you're talking about. You are aparently not getting these results yourself so it brings us back to a player who sees hidden potential/depth in the game that others don't and arguing its there without evidence (theorycraft vs. experienced play).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well as I don't have the machine power (I'm playing on a toaster almost) or the Hard drive space to record all my play ever I can provide videos. I'm still shocked as I have seen hallucinations used to good effect in pubs before and not simply the once I mentioned. Not often but I've seen maybe 3-5 uses of it.
So its not Theory craft any more than saying someone else has seen X counter to Camo work.
I've seen hallucinations used like that.
<a href="http://youtu.be/ZTO1_o_LjrU" target="_blank">I'm not the only one who thinks they have some real potential</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2050202:date=Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I go through with with players like yourself on each RTS board I post on. As entertaining as it is to see someone spin like mad to keep the illusion alive, at some point it becomes work. We're juuuust past that point here. (*in general, not this thread specifically... the whole shade debate across several threads that keep going down the same tired paths)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually you'll note I've barely had to spin or shift to point out the issue. The only spin I've had to do was to counter other peoples spin. There's what 3-5 different Camo counters been put out by people each saying its the counter and even some people combining all of them even the mutually exclusive elements. The only reason I appear to be spinning to some is the fact they haven't stopped yet
<!--quoteo(post=2050202:date=Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, I'm going to fall back on a tried and true way of settling these debates. I'm willing to accept any replay or YouTube evidence you put forward that early camo is game breaking BS that sinks marine teams not swamped in green named players or I'll meet you on any server you like and you can just show me how easy it is. Until I see proof that everything I've actually seen with my own eyes that contradicts your theorycraft, I'm going to sit on my higher ground and just stop rolling reality-boulders down upon you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeh turns out your missing the point of FOOS strategy but never mind as that being a main issue here can be put to one side. You will see Camo being a problem and I have seen fairly equally matched teams or even superior Marine teams lose due to the use of Camo, I saw it happen when we had 3 tech points to the enemies 2 on refinery under its old design.
<!--quoteo(post=2050202:date=Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want you to look to this forums own MaximumSquid as an example of providing proof behind his claims of new builds and tactics. Whether or not players agree with him, he doesn't just show up with a thread and a wild tale to tell, he points people to proof (good or bad) and an actual discussion ensues.
Just as a parting offer and example of what I mean : <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyiAtwrP-I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyiAtwrP-I</a> One of my favorite players is in that game, Infantry Portal... I laughed when these guys were talking down about his play... he's one of the best pubbers out there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again I can't record stuff, even when demos are built into the game chances are if its client side recording I won't be able to run this. all I can say is if you want proof keep playing and watch as it will happen at some point as people experiment more with kham
Dwavenhobble : Same excuses I hear every time vs. theorycraft.
1. Someone better than me says it will work 2. My PC won't run Fraps/Playclaw (insert recording software here) 3. I can't find any replays of it happening, but I've seen it with my own two eyes lots of times (but yet no one else has?) 4. I don't have the skill to do it, but someone does and thats good enough to require changes to the game. (usually IMBA doesn't require lots of skill to exploit) 5. I refuse to provide evidence that I'm right, I don't have to, I can just post all day long and nothing can stop me so either quit the discussion or admit defeat.
Now, to be quite fair to you... you're not coming off as a jerk to me... the ones that do I don't bother to respond to, but we are rapidly reaching the end of my patience on this topic. Forgive me, as I get older, these round-robin kinds of threads lose their fun factor.
Regarding your various rebuttals, not convinced. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong on the topic. If Camo first is killing the game somehow, I'm sure I'd like it to be modified to prevent such damage to the game. I don't see it, you haven't persuaded me its real, so I'm going to have to ask you to try recording the game.
<b>Download a free copy of playclaw and run it on very low settings... then just command the game since low FPS doesn't really hurt the alien com and show me you're right. </b>
Or I can just keep pulling videos of aliens going shade first and failing... but I wonder at what point you'd agree you might be off target on this since I can't make you un-see what you say you've seen with your own eyes.
<!--quoteo(post=2050295:date=Dec 23 2012, 05:24 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 23 2012, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dwavenhobble : Same excuses I hear every time vs. theorycraft.
1. Someone better than me says it will work 2. My PC won't run Fraps/Playclaw (insert recording software here) 3. I can't find any replays of it happening, but I've seen it with my own two eyes lots of times (but yet no one else has?) 4. I don't have the skill to do it, but someone does and thats good enough to require changes to the game. (usually IMBA doesn't require lots of skill to exploit) 5. I refuse to provide evidence that I'm right, I don't have to, I can just post all day long and nothing can stop me so either quit the discussion or admit defeat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. The exact same thing here being said to counter camo so if that invalidates me, it invalidates all the counters to Camo being told from on high meaning essentially I don't need to argue that shade has a use as by the same logic shade has no counter as someone better than me merely saying it is one is no longer valid. OOOPPPss
2. My laptop fails the can I run it for this game, no seriously. I could run fraps but at best you'd have a very boring slideshow to watch and my computer fails to run fraps and NS2 at once
3. Other than NS2 HD I don't really go round the NS2 pro streams / VODs so for all I know the strategy is out there <a href="http://youtu.be/sd_4-1CNz2Q" target="_blank">however I did find this</a>
4. Use the equation skill in = power on Camo then see if the counters match it (Hint they don't not well enough to say its balanced)
5. Kind of the approach being taken here, well that and simply attacking those who suggest there is a problem as cry baby noobs who need to L2p
<!--quoteo(post=2050295:date=Dec 23 2012, 05:24 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 23 2012, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, to be quite fair to you... you're not coming off as a jerk to me... the ones that do I don't bother to respond to, but we are rapidly reaching the end of my patience on this topic. Forgive me, as I get older, these round-robin kinds of threads lose their fun factor.
Regarding your various rebuttals, not convinced. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong on the topic. If Camo first is killing the game somehow, I'm sure I'd like it to be modified to prevent such damage to the game. I don't see it, you haven't persuaded me its real, so I'm going to have to ask you to try recording the game.
<b>Download a free copy of playclaw and run it on very low settings... then just command the game since low FPS doesn't really hurt the alien com and show me you're right. </b>
Or I can just keep pulling videos of aliens going shade first and failing... but I wonder at what point you'd agree you might be off target on this since I can't make you un-see what you say you've seen with your own eyes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again I could but I don't think you realise just how underpowered my set up is lol I can just and I mean just play NS2 on lowest settings. Also I'm not prepared to use Hard drive space recording every game I'm in as at present it would mean further delays to other projects I use the space for.
I played a game where our khammader went Camouflage first. We dominated all the RTs and tech points on Docking... Until the 20 min mark, when Camouflage was our <i>only</i> upgrade despite having 3 hives, 6 harvesters, and 100+ tres. Apparently whips and shades everywhere is more intuitive for new players than upgrades or onos eggs. By the 25 min mark, marines had killed our 3rd and 4th hives with jetpacks, and we still didn't even have leap. /alt+f4
Great OP, I agree with pretty much everything said.
<!--quoteo(post=2049637:date=Dec 21 2012, 10:08 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 21 2012, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every time a camo thread is made, a puppy dies.
Thanks a lot OP! You puppy-murderer! :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the poor puppies.
Since the thread is up though, I will throw in my 2c. The situation...
<ul><li>On the global state of the game, camo is probably 'balanaced'.</li><li>However the weight of the decision is a small alien commander decision that requires constant action (and costs) from the marine commander.</li><li>Poor commanders heavily punish good marine players. Good commanders will find themselves strapped for tres if they scan all the time. Very frustrating.</li><li>However the choice of going shade hive first will have influences mid-end game if aliens cannot get their 3 hives up. Stealth becomes less of a benefit when marines get their mobility up though jetpacks and phase gates. Without cara or shift upgrades, aliens will die more often.</li><li>Then again, early game dominance will likely secure the aliens all their hive locations early game.</li></ul>
As an alien comm I love the camo. I can use drifters to see marine movements and organise my skulks into positions for ambushing potential pushes. The marines have to invest significant resources into finding all my drifters and skulks, which early game criples their tech up.
My opinion is marines need a personal item that counters camo, but costs pres so that they will be delayed or prevented from getting shotguns. This item would unlock at the armoury after buying an obs I suppose.
<ul><li>Motion tracking goggles that replace flashlight. Cost 5 pres. Use energy so cannot use them all the time. When a marine hears a skulk they would turn them on.</li><li>Highly radiated torch that replaces flashlight. Aiming it at an alien causes them to decloak. Costs 5 pres.</li></ul>
On of those would be an interesting dynamic. The first would not help marines see structures or stationary aliens that are cloaked, while the second would. However the second cannot see through walls.
Dwavenhobble: With all respect sir... perhaps your crappy pc influences your opinion on pretty much everything?
Now... just to be perfectly clear... my list of excuses pertains to every time I've had this kind of debate on every RTS ever. (HI MASTERBLASTER!)
I wasn't looking for you to rebut it... the fact that you did says you're being a bit defensive. No need. Just post the YT vids or replays... I'll be happy to watch/learn.
<!--quoteo(post=2049336:date=Dec 21 2012, 07:06 PM:name=Squishpoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squishpoke @ Dec 21 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not a 5 PRES 'Scan Grenade'? You buy one (max), toss it in and bam, you get a scan (at half the range of a Commander scan, perhaps).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking maybe something like a portable scanner. Would cost some pres (& research.) Aliens have the option of taking out the user, getting back their advantage. Maybe even one marine has to hold it for it to be active, and can't fire while doing so. Aliens style motion tracker anyone? :P
I really get the feeling that nobody is reading the original post. At least read the TL;DR part. It isn't about balancing camo. It is about changing an unfun game mechanic. Some way for marines on the field to counter camo. Or at least give them a chance against a camo skulk. I'm also absolutely aware, that there is a heavy focus on teamplay in this game. And if you would have read the original post, gnoarch, instead of raging at me, you would have seen, that my suggestions aren't for rambos. A portable device to detect cloaked aliens would only be useful in a group. Because you can't have your gun out at the same time. In fact it would benefit teamplay to have one marine carrying such a tool. Against a fade, you got a chance. You can shoot it and if you aim good you can bring one down with 2 marines. Against a camo alien you can do nothing without your com. It just gets frustrating. Please read the tl;dr version of the op and calm down.
At the 3 people that are using this thread to talk about camo being a balance problem. I appreciate that you keep this thread on the front page, but you have written all that already in the other camo threads. I would appreciate it much more, if you could focus on the topic of the camo mechanic itself. The balancing comes after tweaking the mechanic and isn't this big of a deal. But to start with, we should talk about what is fun in the camo mechanic and if or if not a marine on the field should at least have a chance against an camo alien without starting with a 150 damage disadvantage and the loss of his ranged-advantage.
there is no problem, stop trying to lump bad marine play into some kind of game flaw. havent you people ######ed enough about the game already? you spend more time on the forums that actually playing and getting better.
Thanks for your (as always) valuable participation in this discussion. If you can't stand that people want to discuss mechanics of a game, don't read it. But trying to forbid people to discus things won't ever work. The sooner you learn this, the better for you.
<!--quoteo(post=2050633:date=Dec 24 2012, 07:01 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Dec 24 2012, 07:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for your (as always) valuable participation in this discussion. If you can't stand that people want to discuss mechanics of a game, don't read it. But trying to forbid people to discus things won't ever work. The sooner you learn this, the better for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
discussing a game mechanic is one thing, but there are multiple threads like "marines should have 70 round clips" and "camo is broken" or how about the "marines in vents" thread.
these arent discussions, these are complaints. discussions are something that will add to the game, not complaints about game mechanics that X player has a problem with.
Personally I'm for sound based solution to fix this broken mechanic. Mainly because they are simple (no additional rule, no additional entity, ...), they expend the gameplay in a dimension that is essential to the game but is not really used explicitly (sound based combat) and they are potentially a lot of fun.
My favorite variation is instantaneous continuous cloak when going toward max speed (cloak ~ speed), with uncloak when hit (with some unspecified cooldown to re-cloak), removal of scan uncloak and fixing of obs circles.
<!--quoteo(post=2050638:date=Dec 24 2012, 02:15 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 24 2012, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->these arent discussions, these are complaints. discussions are something that will add to the game, not complaints about game mechanics that X player has a problem with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you on that. But this thread isn't about complaining. If you would read at least the tl;dr part, you may be able to contribute.
My view on camo, is the frustration of marine boots on the ground having no personal counter to a camo alien. The reliance on a commander to well place forward obersavtories / scan when requested does not always happen. If a commander is resource limited but marine pres is currently not, having another tool to sweep areas or resource points sure would help.
In th spirit of the whole marine vs alien theme, marine group with shooters and snoopers cooperatively sweeping and clearing spaces needs to be in the game. At times when you are facing camo aliens as an individual marine wanting to expand the marine map control, you have to depend nearly totally on a commander to sweep ahead. To much so. A marine showing intitative can not see nor hear a camo alien. The only warning is a sudden stopping of claws going silent or the first two 75 point bites on your ass. Both cases you strip the skill mechanic of keeping sharp eyes or keen hearing.
What I would like to see tested experimented with. Marine Kharaa scanner 5 pres - orange light emitting device that when swept over a room would change texture on camo kharaa or structure to orange model. The kharaa is still stealthed even when the beam is removed from them, requiring a marine to maintain focus on them or quickly switch to a weapon to hit them. kharaa scanner wouldn't ping them on the map. Other idea similar to a scanner is a one time use flare,similar to final fantasy spirit within. Would reveal a space for a certain amount of time before burning out. <a href="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GnE64DbnUzY#t=m57s" target="_blank">http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GnE64DbnUzY#t=0m57s</a>
Marine observatory No longer take aliens out of stealth. Only highlights them on the map view or mini map and does not put a big circle target on them. This could serve as a warning of alien attack but not strip aliens of being able to sneak past marines or sentries.
Alien camo 95% invisibility while moving at all, but their must be a slight shimmer or some tell for marines to at least try to spot. Stationary kharaa will have full invisibility. Reduced further if moving full speed, perhaps some sort of distortion field effect? Ns2 worked so hard in having plenty of nooks and crannies with aliens capable of wall walking that to casually walk up to a clueless marine staring / straining to hear you is, meh.
When you look at ever weapon structure or evolution, there is something to combat it. In the case of a marine, he lacks a tool against camo. They have flamers for spores, shotguns for carapace, grenades vs. whips, mines and hydra for static defense...etc.
<!--quoteo(post=2049161:date=Dec 21 2012, 06:43 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Dec 21 2012, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*]<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->While camo is effective for skulks, it will completely lose its usefulness in mid game, when marines have tech points secured with obs. It will even become a impairment for the aliens, because they are missing the other upgrades that are highly useful for higher life forms.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> This is absolutely right. If aliens can't secure at least a 2nd hive, they got a real problem in mid and late game. This fact balances camo really nice right now. In a risk - reward sense. But if you are fair, if aliens can't secure a 2nd tech point early on, (before the marines got an obs there,) they probably wouldn't have saved it with cara or celerity. It is highly difficult to create an opinion on anecdotal knowledge. Because you never know, if the skill-gap between the team where this much off, that camo had any influence on the outcome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The argument is more that Gorges, Onos, Fades, and Lerks all benefit more from Craig and Shift upgrades than from Shade upgrades. Consequently, if the alien team only has 2 hives, and one of those hives is a shade hive, your late game lifeforms are all "crippled" (to a degree anyways, they don't have their ideal set up), and in the late game camo doesn't help skulks enough to offset the need for late game lifeforms.
The argument has nothing to do with the second tech point. The argument is an argument based on the third tech point. If you have gone camo, and you cannot secure a third tech point (which is a very realistic scenario) you have shot yourself in the foot.
This was more true in NS1 before focus. There's some things in NS2 that weaken this scenario, scans costing money, power node rushes, and celerity being nerfed to hell most notably. But it still is true for NS2 on some levels.
[edit] Ok, actually, Ops whole post is either intentionally wrong (he's trying to make a straw man out of the opposing side) or he's ignorant of what the opposing side is actually saying. It's a great long thing that is full of wasted words. He's laboring under the assumption that Shade first gets "saved" by the second hive, which is not the case, and that good commanders are worse than they actually are. The "camo-is-weak" argument goes "It's weak because you have weaker 2 hive options" meaning that you need both shift and craig upgrades in the 2 hive midgame, and going shade weakens that midgame because you must choose to sacrifice either shift or craig. And that good commanders have to scan not more than 2 times a minute on average. Not the approximately 6 times a minute op is claiming, and thus the cost of scan is not a significant impediment to counter camo.
I'm not a straw man for any side in this argument. I have just tried to summarize all the points in this discussion and bring in my points and ideas about camo.
My main point is, that marines on the field should be able to counter camo without relying heavily on the commander. My secondary point is, that camo needs to be balanced again after this. I have written down my ideas on how to do this in the TL;DR section.
Now to your critic point: I actually agree with you, as you can read in the part you quoted. The aliens are in a disadvantage in mid- and late-game when going shade hive first and when they can't secure a second and third hive. But this isn't black and white. Cara and adren are very important for higher life forms. But without one of them they haven't lost immediately. How much this disadvantage weighs against the early game camo advantage can't be told with anecdotal stories.
<!--quoteo(post=2050776:date=Dec 24 2012, 07:29 PM:name=Wonderboy2402)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wonderboy2402 @ Dec 24 2012, 07:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien camo 95% invisibility while moving at all, but their must be a slight shimmer or some tell for marines to at least try to spot. Stationary kharaa will have full invisibility. Reduced further if moving full speed, perhaps some sort of distortion field effect? Ns2 worked so hard in having plenty of nooks and crannies with aliens capable of wall walking that to casually walk up to a clueless marine staring / straining to hear you is, meh.
When you look at ever weapon structure or evolution, there is something to combat it. In the case of a marine, he lacks a tool against camo. They have flamers for spores, shotguns for carapace, grenades vs. whips, mines and hydra for static defense...etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While nice in prospect its too easy to cheat with any level of visibility / Camo texture while moving, people will simply mod it to make it more visible. It needs to be 100% invisible to work movement wise
<!--quoteo(post=2050884:date=Dec 24 2012, 04:07 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 24 2012, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While nice in prospect its too easy to cheat with any level of visibility / Camo texture while moving, people will simply mod it to make it more visible. It needs to be 100% invisible to work movement wise<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still not sold on that. Less than 100% invisibility can be simulated in several ways. The correct choice depends on what the desired effect is. A ghost like look that suggests non-corporeal origin? Semi transparent washed out textures with a little silhouette glow. Comical effect? Footprints like in so many cartoons. Camouflage that's hard to spot unless the target is moving? Background distortion. Want to make it look impressive for the viewers' benefit? Add edge highlighting like in the movie Predator. Etc...
UWE picked the wrong implementation, that's all. See Starcraft for an example of how it should be done. Make player textures completely invisible and distort background textures as a function of camera angle on model surface. 3rd party texture manipulation is a non issue since they are 100% transparent, and because you do nothing but displace background pixels without touching any color values, gamma correction / brightness settings don't make a difference.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
It'd be interesting to try 100% invisibility with some sort of AoE distortion field.
The marines would see a subtle distortion when they're near cloaked aliens. This distortion would intensify as the marines got closer to the aliens, but it wouldn't change as they looked towards or away from the cloaked aliens.
IMO cloaking should be movement based. Totally still could have it 100% invisible, but make it more opaque dependent on moving speed.
And I would also advocate a passive ability that that builds upon the sensory aspect of the tree and helps more throughout the game. Maybe something like marine outlines that change colors with primary weapon changes in alien vision. For instance, if you have a shotgun your outline could be red and a grenade launcher could be green and flamethrowers' flames would be visible.
You could even have it only work when at 100% cloak so you can see which marine to attack but then it goes back to normal when you move, to keep things interesting...
<!--quoteo(post=2050865:date=Dec 24 2012, 05:25 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Dec 24 2012, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not a straw man for any side in this argument. I have just tried to summarize all the points in this discussion and bring in my points and ideas about camo.
My main point is, that marines on the field should be able to counter camo without relying heavily on the commander. My secondary point is, that camo needs to be balanced again after this. I have written down my ideas on how to do this in the TL;DR section.
Now to your critic point: I actually agree with you, as you can read in the part you quoted. The aliens are in a disadvantage in mid- and late-game when going shade hive first and when they can't secure a second and third hive. But this isn't black and white. Cara and adren are very important for higher life forms. But without one of them they haven't lost immediately. How much this disadvantage weighs against the early game camo advantage can't be told with anecdotal stories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your post is pretty specific that "securing the second hive shouldn't be a problem" and therefore you feel the argument about a weaker mid game is weak. That argument never involved securing a second hive. The argument that the midgame is weaker ENTIRELY rests on having onos without both celerity and carapasc. Both upgrades are "needed" to have a maximum strength mid game. I agree with you that there's a lot of grey area on this specific issue. How much of a qualitative advantage do you REALLY get with celerity? How much does adrenaline really change the late game? (good fades don't need it, good lerks can manage without it). Certainly it's OFTEN better than camo, but camo onos are pretty annoying as well, and scans are more often missed in the late game, especially near marine encampments. However, you don't explore that deep. You basically say "well, aliens will get the second hive, and therefore they are still good" and that specific point just doesn't really address the real argument at all. No one is seriously debating that somehow shade first makes it impossible to get the second hive up.
You also argue that "scanning for 2 advancing groups cost the amount of res you create with 3 resource towers. You need to scan every 14 seconds to secure a group that is not near an obs." This is just patently false. You do not need to scan every 14 seconds. You very rarely need to scan more than every 30 seconds, and it's rare to have more than 1 group you are scan babysitting. There are large portions of the game, for example, any time aliens are heavily pushing a secure area, where you just don't really need to scan at all for minutes at a time. Scanning is not necessarily the res hog that camo proponents claim it is. This is part of what makes a good commander good at countering cloak, it's NOT wasting res on scanning. If a commander is "countering" cloak by dumping all their res into scans then they are NOT good. The skill is in the balancing point, in scanning enough to put the aliens at a disadvantage but not so much that you hurt yourself. In fact, you should be scanning SOME even if aliens DO NOT go camo. The motion tracking effect alone makes scanning worth it in many scenarios. Against cloak frequency at which a good commander scans only slightly goes up.
ADDITIONALLY. Shade chambers are not free either, most alien comms spend FAR FAR FAAAAAAAR more Tres dropping shade chambers than a marine commander spends scanning marines. You almost NEVER see an alien commander just go shade hive and not spend/waste res on early game shade chambers. The res argument goes both ways.
Your claim is that you are summarizing the position against camo first. You are not. You have not addressed any of the points made by those who argue that camo first is weak. The points you are addressing are a weaker non-existant position that no one holds. This is the DEFINITION of making a straw man. The only thing I don't know is whether you are doing it intentionally or weather you are just ignorant to believe that people with the stance that camo first is bad actually believe the things you attribute to them.
Either way, it's VERY bad form to tell someone else what they believe/are arguing. ESPECIALLY when you're SO inaccurate.
Ok, fair enough. If you see it this way, I have to apologize. I would be more than happy if you could help me to make the op better. Just write down the points I forgot or got wrong and I will add them to the op.
<!--quoteo(post=2050910:date=Dec 25 2012, 02:18 AM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Dec 25 2012, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still not sold on that. Less than 100% invisibility can be simulated in several ways. The correct choice depends on what the desired effect is. A ghost like look that suggests non-corporeal origin? Semi transparent washed out textures with a little silhouette glow. Comical effect? Footprints like in so many cartoons. Camouflage that's hard to spot unless the target is moving? Background distortion. Want to make it look impressive for the viewers' benefit? Add edge highlighting like in the movie Predator. Etc...
UWE picked the wrong implementation, that's all. See Starcraft for an example of how it should be done. Make player textures completely invisible and distort background textures as a function of camera angle on model surface. 3rd party texture manipulation is a non issue since they are 100% transparent, and because you do nothing but displace background pixels without touching any color values, gamma correction / brightness settings don't make a difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only real way to work it would be partial texture visibility, the problem then is that if the texture uses see through sections it can still be modded to show up. Essentially it would have to be hard coded into the game to only show certain areas of the texture. Going with ghost effects means it can still be modded as there will be a texture file, hence glowing red thing, same with any distortion effects they can simply mod the texture to make them show up easily
Comments
I do believe as you made your claim first you're obliged to back your claim up first so lets see this replay of a commander wasting all the team res on useless hallucinations then
<!--quoteo(post=2049876:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:33 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 22 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First, pink onos have something like 100 health... a single exo would have made it vanish in about .5 seconds of shooting. If the com actually ordered 3 exos to chase a single Onos (that was real ffs) then the com is mentally handicapped. The Exo's cant even catch up to an Onos that's around a corner, and if they can see a pink onos its going to vanish in a split second.
lastly, you didn't solo 3 exo's as a gorge and live, or if you did, you're only highlighting how really terrible the marines were... which again points to the root problem with your position that good marines still lose to camo so badly there's a need for some sort of change.
----
Shade evo is 15, veil is 5, camo is 10... so I shorted the cost by 5... that actually supports my point more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah but by your own logic and arguement you discount the 15 as obviously an alien will have a hive and evolve it so as such the 15 cost is not accounted the same as the 1st obs cost isn't either.
<!--quoteo(post=2049875:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are forgetting another cost. I'm not going to tell you what it is though, since you're so pro you can't be bothered to listen to people with literally hundreds of hours more experience than you. Lets see if you can figure out what you missed!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strange how you only bring the cost up when someone else brings it in when surely in 137 hours com experience mainly alien you'd know this. Also when did I say I was pro ? I thought I was a noob who needed to L2P ?
<!--quoteo(post=2049875:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You keep citing cost as proof. Trouble pointed out how totally and utterly wrong you are. I'll help him out here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
trouble is using some one else's logic you missed the logical flaw too.
Or have you ever seen aliens take 3 hives and evolve none of them ?
<!--quoteo(post=2049875:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No costs will ever 'equal out' between Marines and Aliens. Marines, by design, cost more resources than Aliens do. Some structures are the same cost, but when you get down to the nuts and bolts there is an <i>astronomical</i> difference in costs between the two teams. How do you explain that? It's like it was <i>designed to be different</i>. That difference might be bad or good in your eyes, but to cite one aspect of it while completely ignoring the rest is silly. I've thought you were a troll all thread, now I'm convinced of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strange isn't it.
Fade = 50 Pres
Exo single = 50 Pres
Onos = 75 Pres
Exo double = 75 Pres
Almost deliberate there.
Harvester = 10
Extractor = 10
very strange.
<!--quoteo(post=2049883:date=Dec 22 2012, 08:06 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 08:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Hallucinations disappear instantly with one scan. If you cover them with ink, they still die to 10 or less LMG bullets. Basically, a Hydra <i>or</i> a clog are both more useful on their own than hallucinations. Together they are <i>far</i> better. Add bile bomb and a nearby shift and they're...ok I think you get the point. And while yes, a Hallucination doesn't take up a team member, they are also so close to being completely useless that it will make a difference in maybe 1 out of 100 games. (That also discounts the fact that it actually costs T.Res to upgrade to Hallucinations. Even one whip is more valuable than upgrading Hallucinations. Another team upgrade is even <i>more</i> valuable.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the voice of 137 hours com has spoken we all must do as he says for his theory craft is stronger [/sarc]
Again still doesn't make it worthless as its the 1% its the killer
Points being ignored.
- Meta game evolution, as apparently crag shift will forever be the theorycrafted method to win, right ?
- Foos strategy of Camo leading to people not developing / adopting other strategies or trying them causing initial stagnation of the metagame thus hitting a point where they have missed the required development, jsut as crag / shift will probably get to
- The suggested strategies to counter Camo all have flaws including in one case it being viable against any hive not simply a shade hive
- The fact its even more of a Foos strategy with Camo as the only way a Marine can counter it without their commander is using latent psyhic skills while using Camo for Aliens uses player skill more
It's because you brought up costs, and you're wrong. It's this thing called 'replying to an arguement'. I guess your only defense is ad hominum, fortunately for me you're so obviously blinded by rage that I could probably poke you with a stick and you'd explode. That's pretty much what your replies are, rage fueled ignorance.
Oh, and it's 150 hours of commanding on my part now. Where are you sitting? Dismissing my experience as me trying to belittle you is false. I'm telling you that I've played this game <i>a lot</i> longer than you, and I simply tell you this so you know what I say is grounded in the <i>hundreds of hours</i> I've spent playing. If you can't see why a couple of hours isn't enough of a basis to draw a conclusion from I can't help you. It's possible that you're a NS2 savant, and completely understand every nuance of Marines play instantly. Your follow up posts convey an extreme lack of NS2 in game experience.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strange isn't it.
Fade = 50 Pres
Exo single = 50 Pres
Onos = 75 Pres
Exo double = 75 Pres
Almost deliberate there.
Harvester = 10
Extractor = 10
very strange.
So the voice of 137 hours com has spoken we all must do as he says for his theory craft is stronger [/sarc]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could go pretty far down this rabbit hole.
How about IP's that cost 10 T.Res versus free eggs? (Or if you want to be silly, 5 T.Res for two spawns at a shift)
How about 15 T.Res for a command chair? Or 10 for an armory?
How about a Robotics Factory that costs 15 T.Res, that produces units that cost even more <i>and</i> require you to research upgrades for those same units?
How about an arms lab that costs 170 T.Res for full team upgrades?
Or a phase gate that costs 15 T.Res <i>not including</i> the upgrade and other structure and research required? (25 T.Res total)
Or how about a prototype lab that costs 40 T.Res? What <i>cost</i> does this mirror? Onos can be purchased through P.Res <i>even on one hive</i>. And eggs can be dropped on three hives. Marines can <i>never</i> purchase dual exo's through T.Res, and require research and a 40 T.Res investment, <i>and</i> a second tech point as a prerequisite. Yet through <i>some miracle</i> Marines still end up with Exo's in a veritable <i>ton</i> of games.
Most of these things have no corresponding cost structure on the aliens side of the aisle. So what is your point? That a few units cost the same, while the vast majority of them don't? Please, tell me more about how similar the costs between teams are.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Points being ignored.
- Meta game evolution, as apparently crag shift will forever be the theorycrafted method to win, right ?
- Foos strategy of Camo leading to people not developing / adopting other strategies or trying them causing initial stagnation of the metagame thus hitting a point where they have missed the required development, jsut as crag / shift will probably get to
- The suggested strategies to counter Camo all have flaws including in one case it being viable against any hive not simply a shade hive
- The fact its even more of a Foos strategy with Camo as the only way a Marine can counter it without their commander is using latent psyhic skills while using Camo for Aliens uses player skill more<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) No it's Shift/Crag/Shade that's most effective. If you're being specific.
2) I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. Shift/Crag/Shade is the result of hundreds of hours of experimentation and trial and error. Shade is undeniably <i>more</i> useful now than it was, but not useful enough to radically change the effectiveness of Shift/Crag/Shade. At least it's a viable upgrade now, whereas before I wouldn't even upgrade a third hive to shade. It was more useful to replace a killed shift or crag hive than bother with shade.
3) The flaw in countering Camo effectively is in how good the Marines commander is, and how knowledgeable the Marines players are.
4) Kind of like how you think Ink is effective when it requires psychic foreknowledge of when and where the Marine commander will scan? And how you need a mature shade there <i>already</i> to effectively counter it in that instance? Yet somehow some Marines commanders still manage to do it. This means it's a skill issue. There is no way around this fact.
I'm sorry I wasn't nicer when I told you that you didn't have the experience required to add to this topic. Perhaps me being dismissive is what's led to your rabid hate of Camo, but you being angry at me does not change the game mechanics I've described to you. I will attempt to be nicer in the future when I tell you that you're wrong.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the voice of 137 hours com has spoken we all must do as he says for his theory craft is stronger<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My opinion isn't 'theory craft', it's the result of hundreds of hours of in game experience. If you can't tell the difference between the two, that's really more of your problem than mine.
It's always bugged me that different evolution traits cost different amounts to research. It seems like the only reason an upgrade should cost less or more than another is because it is less/more viable/useful than it's counterpart. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with shade. However, I just wish things would all cost the same thing, such that when considering the balance of these upgrades, one should not be made purposefully worse than another just because it's cheaper, or the other way round, in that once should not be made better than another just because it's more expensive. All upgrade structures should be equally viable in some respect, and cost the same amount. If one ability is more viable than the other, then it is constantly rushed over the other ones. E.g. carapace rushed over regen. And in some respects shift/crag is rushed over shade (not because it's not good, but lacks the upgrades to keep it viable in the late game should they not secure a 3rd hive)
All of these arguments have been retread so many times I could spout them in my sleep. Just give it some time and lets see how the stats play out. Especially with the holiday sale it will be some time before the rookie wave dissipates(or gets better), maybe we should let the current game balance play itself out before we start pushing for changes.
Also, it really is not OP, just a really boring mechanic.
Oh, and it's 150 hours of commanding on my part now. Where are you sitting? Dismissing my experience as me trying to belittle you is false.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fortunately for me it appears you learned very little in those 150 hours, otherwise you'd have been able to spot the logical flaw in the argument you're still now supporting.
Again you need two bases each with an obs for defence according to you. Even going with "Oh you need an obs anyway so its no cost" you can say the same for the aliens "Oh you need to evolve the hive so its a non cost anyway" meaning Camo is still 15 resources to the 15 + 3 per use for Obs
But no apparently while for Marines Obs is standard, aliens never evolve their hives ever right ?
Well considering you've spent most of the discussion calling anyone who supports a change to camo as a noob who needs to L2P and completely misrepresenting the arguments then moaning when someone does the same back to you then I'm sitting here watching someone who either
A) Doesn't get it
B) Is too blinded by his own perceived ability to accept the potential of a problem
C) Is just ignorant
D) Worried his little pub stomping toy won't work anymore so he can't feel so superior running into Rookie servers and steam rolling them before saying its the Rookies faults for not knowing how to play perfectly.
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm telling you that I've played this game <i>a lot</i> longer than you, and I simply tell you this so you know what I say is grounded in the <i>hundreds of hours</i> I've spent playing. If you can't see why a couple of hours isn't enough of a basis to draw a conclusion from I can't help you.
It's possible that you're a NS2 savant, and completely understand every nuance of Marines play instantly. Your follow up posts convey an extreme lack of NS2 in game experience.
I could go pretty far down this rabbit hole.
How about IP's that cost 10 T.Res versus free eggs? (Or if you want to be silly, 5 T.Res for two spawns at a shift)
How about 15 T.Res for a command chair? Or 10 for an armory?
How about a Robotics Factory that costs 15 T.Res, that produces units that cost even more <i>and</i> require you to research upgrades for those same units?
How about an arms lab that costs 170 T.Res for full team upgrades?
Or a phase gate that costs 15 T.Res <i>not including</i> the upgrade and other structure and research required? (25 T.Res total)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A couple of hours, more like approaching 50 at this point. Though sure sure your anecdotal evidence proves everything right because with 150 hours anecdotal evidence becomes fact right ? [/sarc]
IPs can only be placed and base, initially you get 1 which gives about the same respawn as eggs with two its a permanent increase in respawn capacity. The shift lets you respawn in the field essentially
hives come with eggs once they are up, command chair don't come with IPs by default, Crags cost 10 also Marines ammo health and armour doesn't magically regenerate while alien Stamina health and armour does. You can boost this with shifts and crags but they aren't a requirement.
How about a 2nd hive that requires you to evolve it, place the required structure and research the abilities ?
Probably about on par with the cost of a full Kharr upgraded team
its what 80 for the hives
30 for the specialisation
70 for the 1st selection of specialisations.
Oh look the Kharr have spent 180 res to be able to have one upgrade in each evolution pathway
Or looking at it another way.
Macs repair structures Kharr have to replace cysts.
Macs provide a minor defence with EMP whips cost more
Arcs can be used as siege weapons, whips can too however at a higher cost per whip but without the research costs etc with it,
celerity ?
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or how about a prototype lab that costs 40 T.Res? What <i>cost</i> does this mirror? Onos can be purchased through P.Res <i>even on one hive</i>. And eggs can be dropped on three hives. Marines can <i>never</i> purchase dual exo's through T.Res, and require research and a 40 T.Res investment, <i>and</i> a second tech point as a prerequisite. Yet through <i>some miracle</i> Marines still end up with Exo's in a veritable <i>ton</i> of games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well considering whats needed to make an Onos effective isn't the same as Exos you can throw in Welders, Stomp research, another 70 resources into the mix. for your calculations
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) No it's Shift/Crag/Shade that's most effective. If you're being specific.
2) I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. Shift/Crag/Shade is the result of hundreds of hours of experimentation and trial and error. Shade is undeniably <i>more</i> useful now than it was, but not useful enough to radically change the effectiveness of Shift/Crag/Shade. At least it's a viable upgrade now, whereas before I wouldn't even upgrade a third hive to shade. It was more useful to replace a killed shift or crag hive than bother with shade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I'm getting crap for theory crafting while here you're being the definition of theory crafting by saying its possible more than one strategy works while you're saying that Crag shift is the most effective way to play.
The fact you have no idea about FOOS strategy really does point to how little attention you've been paying despite the attempt to correct my previous link to the blip.TV version for whatever reason.
I'd suggest you go back and watch over it, though as you've proved you're unwilling to read posts and seemingly too egotistical to enter into debate or bother with other peoples points as shown by you refusing point blank to read a reply before I doubt you'll read this either.
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) The flaw in countering Camo effectively is in how good the Marines commander is, and how knowledgeable the Marines players are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Player skill in = Power out.
Worth that equation for Camo and then against Camo and you'l see the issue
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) Kind of like how you think Ink is effective when it requires psychic foreknowledge of when and where the Marine commander will scan? And how you need a mature shade there <i>already</i> to effectively counter it in that instance? Yet somehow some Marines commanders still manage to do it. This means it's a skill issue. There is no way around this fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno the big warning and scan indication on the map is good enough for most Khams to deploy ink sure it uncloaks your team but then the ink scews with Marines so much
<!--quoteo(post=2049928:date=Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry I wasn't nicer when I told you that you didn't have the experience required to add to this topic. Perhaps me being dismissive is what's led to your rabid hate of Camo, but you being angry at me does not change the game mechanics I've described to you. I will attempt to be nicer in the future when I tell you that you're wrong.
My opinion isn't 'theory craft', it's the result of hundreds of hours of in game experience. If you can't tell the difference between the two, that's really more of your problem than mine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No believe me if I were angry it would be far more evident in my replies than at present.
Also how about rather than telling me I'm wrong, you explain why you believe this and stop completely ignoring the points brought up to bring it back to some petty squabble level.
At present the argument has gone like this
Me "I believe X because Y, Z"
You "You're wrong"
Me "Why when A, B, C"
You "Because I say you're wrong and I'm bigger than you"
Me "Wait that doesn't discount or disprove A, B or C"
You "Thats because you're a noob and I know better"
Me "Ok then explain how it disproves A,B or C"
You "Because you're a noob and I know better"
lol.
lets have a look:
I am counting every stucture that is needed to gain every possible upgrade for both teams. I do not counting defense structures like sentrys/whips or PG/shift/shade/crags (but shade/shift upgrade).
<u><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Marines<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>
<b>Buildings:</b>
Proto : 40
Armory + AA : 30
obs : 15
RF + ARC-up : 25
armslab: 20
<u>1 CC : 15</u>
<b>145</b>
<b>Marine ups:</b>
Prot jetpack/exos = 75
Armory + AA ups = 90
Armslab ups: 150
Factory ups : 30
<u>Phasetech : 15</u>
<b>360</b>
<b><u>total cost : 145 + 360 = 505</u></b>
<u><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Aliens<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>
2 Hives = 80
Hive upgrade shift/shade/crag = 45
hive evolutions blink/leap etc. = 215
chambers Spur/shell/veil * 2 = 60
Chamber upgrades = 75
shift/shadeup = 30
<u><b>total cost = 505</b></u>
Whoooops :> .
yes, that difference is realy astronomical...ehmm... absolutly not
We could add some RTs now on both sides if u which. 5 for every one.
Marines = 50 res
aliens = ca. 75 res
Why is everyone forgeting all those countless cysts :/
I go through with with players like yourself on each RTS board I post on. As entertaining as it is to see someone spin like mad to keep the illusion alive, at some point it becomes work. We're juuuust past that point here. (*in general, not this thread specifically... the whole shade debate across several threads that keep going down the same tired paths)
So, I'm going to fall back on a tried and true way of settling these debates. I'm willing to accept any replay or YouTube evidence you put forward that early camo is game breaking BS that sinks marine teams not swamped in green named players or I'll meet you on any server you like and you can just show me how easy it is. Until I see proof that everything I've actually seen with my own eyes that contradicts your theorycraft, I'm going to sit on my higher ground and just stop rolling reality-boulders down upon you.
I want you to look to this forums own MaximumSquid as an example of providing proof behind his claims of new builds and tactics. Whether or not players agree with him, he doesn't just show up with a thread and a wild tale to tell, he points people to proof (good or bad) and an actual discussion ensues.
Just as a parting offer and example of what I mean : <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyiAtwrP-I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyiAtwrP-I</a>
One of my favorite players is in that game, Infantry Portal... I laughed when these guys were talking down about his play... he's one of the best pubbers out there.
Well as I don't have the machine power (I'm playing on a toaster almost) or the Hard drive space to record all my play ever I can provide videos.
I'm still shocked as I have seen hallucinations used to good effect in pubs before and not simply the once I mentioned. Not often but I've seen maybe 3-5 uses of it.
So its not Theory craft any more than saying someone else has seen X counter to Camo work.
I've seen hallucinations used like that.
<a href="http://youtu.be/ZTO1_o_LjrU" target="_blank">I'm not the only one who thinks they have some real potential</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2050202:date=Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I go through with with players like yourself on each RTS board I post on. As entertaining as it is to see someone spin like mad to keep the illusion alive, at some point it becomes work. We're juuuust past that point here. (*in general, not this thread specifically... the whole shade debate across several threads that keep going down the same tired paths)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually you'll note I've barely had to spin or shift to point out the issue. The only spin I've had to do was to counter other peoples spin. There's what 3-5 different Camo counters been put out by people each saying its the counter and even some people combining all of them even the mutually exclusive elements. The only reason I appear to be spinning to some is the fact they haven't stopped yet
<!--quoteo(post=2050202:date=Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, I'm going to fall back on a tried and true way of settling these debates. I'm willing to accept any replay or YouTube evidence you put forward that early camo is game breaking BS that sinks marine teams not swamped in green named players or I'll meet you on any server you like and you can just show me how easy it is. Until I see proof that everything I've actually seen with my own eyes that contradicts your theorycraft, I'm going to sit on my higher ground and just stop rolling reality-boulders down upon you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh turns out your missing the point of FOOS strategy but never mind as that being a main issue here can be put to one side.
You will see Camo being a problem and I have seen fairly equally matched teams or even superior Marine teams lose due to the use of Camo, I saw it happen when we had 3 tech points to the enemies 2 on refinery under its old design.
<!--quoteo(post=2050202:date=Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 23 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want you to look to this forums own MaximumSquid as an example of providing proof behind his claims of new builds and tactics. Whether or not players agree with him, he doesn't just show up with a thread and a wild tale to tell, he points people to proof (good or bad) and an actual discussion ensues.
Just as a parting offer and example of what I mean : <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyiAtwrP-I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyiAtwrP-I</a>
One of my favorite players is in that game, Infantry Portal... I laughed when these guys were talking down about his play... he's one of the best pubbers out there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again I can't record stuff, even when demos are built into the game chances are if its client side recording I won't be able to run this. all I can say is if you want proof keep playing and watch as it will happen at some point as people experiment more with kham
1. Someone better than me says it will work
2. My PC won't run Fraps/Playclaw (insert recording software here)
3. I can't find any replays of it happening, but I've seen it with my own two eyes lots of times (but yet no one else has?)
4. I don't have the skill to do it, but someone does and thats good enough to require changes to the game. (usually IMBA doesn't require lots of skill to exploit)
5. I refuse to provide evidence that I'm right, I don't have to, I can just post all day long and nothing can stop me so either quit the discussion or admit defeat.
Now, to be quite fair to you... you're not coming off as a jerk to me... the ones that do I don't bother to respond to, but we are rapidly reaching the end of my patience on this topic. Forgive me, as I get older, these round-robin kinds of threads lose their fun factor.
Regarding your various rebuttals, not convinced. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong on the topic. If Camo first is killing the game somehow, I'm sure I'd like it to be modified to prevent such damage to the game. I don't see it, you haven't persuaded me its real, so I'm going to have to ask you to try recording the game.
<b>Download a free copy of playclaw and run it on very low settings... then just command the game since low FPS doesn't really hurt the alien com and show me you're right. </b>
Or I can just keep pulling videos of aliens going shade first and failing... but I wonder at what point you'd agree you might be off target on this since I can't make you un-see what you say you've seen with your own eyes.
1. Someone better than me says it will work
2. My PC won't run Fraps/Playclaw (insert recording software here)
3. I can't find any replays of it happening, but I've seen it with my own two eyes lots of times (but yet no one else has?)
4. I don't have the skill to do it, but someone does and thats good enough to require changes to the game. (usually IMBA doesn't require lots of skill to exploit)
5. I refuse to provide evidence that I'm right, I don't have to, I can just post all day long and nothing can stop me so either quit the discussion or admit defeat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. The exact same thing here being said to counter camo so if that invalidates me, it invalidates all the counters to Camo being told from on high meaning essentially I don't need to argue that shade has a use as by the same logic shade has no counter as someone better than me merely saying it is one is no longer valid. OOOPPPss
2. My laptop fails the can I run it for this game, no seriously. I could run fraps but at best you'd have a very boring slideshow to watch and my computer fails to run fraps and NS2 at once
3. Other than NS2 HD I don't really go round the NS2 pro streams / VODs so for all I know the strategy is out there <a href="http://youtu.be/sd_4-1CNz2Q" target="_blank">however I did find this</a>
4. Use the equation skill in = power on Camo then see if the counters match it (Hint they don't not well enough to say its balanced)
5. Kind of the approach being taken here, well that and simply attacking those who suggest there is a problem as cry baby noobs who need to L2p
<!--quoteo(post=2050295:date=Dec 23 2012, 05:24 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 23 2012, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, to be quite fair to you... you're not coming off as a jerk to me... the ones that do I don't bother to respond to, but we are rapidly reaching the end of my patience on this topic. Forgive me, as I get older, these round-robin kinds of threads lose their fun factor.
Regarding your various rebuttals, not convinced. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong on the topic. If Camo first is killing the game somehow, I'm sure I'd like it to be modified to prevent such damage to the game. I don't see it, you haven't persuaded me its real, so I'm going to have to ask you to try recording the game.
<b>Download a free copy of playclaw and run it on very low settings... then just command the game since low FPS doesn't really hurt the alien com and show me you're right. </b>
Or I can just keep pulling videos of aliens going shade first and failing... but I wonder at what point you'd agree you might be off target on this since I can't make you un-see what you say you've seen with your own eyes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again I could but I don't think you realise just how underpowered my set up is lol I can just and I mean just play NS2 on lowest settings. Also I'm not prepared to use Hard drive space recording every game I'm in as at present it would mean further delays to other projects I use the space for.
Great OP, I agree with pretty much everything said.
Thanks a lot OP! You puppy-murderer! :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the poor puppies.
Since the thread is up though, I will throw in my 2c. The situation...
<ul><li>On the global state of the game, camo is probably 'balanaced'.</li><li>However the weight of the decision is a small alien commander decision that requires constant action (and costs) from the marine commander.</li><li>Poor commanders heavily punish good marine players. Good commanders will find themselves strapped for tres if they scan all the time. Very frustrating.</li><li>However the choice of going shade hive first will have influences mid-end game if aliens cannot get their 3 hives up. Stealth becomes less of a benefit when marines get their mobility up though jetpacks and phase gates. Without cara or shift upgrades, aliens will die more often.</li><li>Then again, early game dominance will likely secure the aliens all their hive locations early game.</li></ul>
As an alien comm I love the camo. I can use drifters to see marine movements and organise my skulks into positions for ambushing potential pushes. The marines have to invest significant resources into finding all my drifters and skulks, which early game criples their tech up.
My opinion is marines need a personal item that counters camo, but costs pres so that they will be delayed or prevented from getting shotguns. This item would unlock at the armoury after buying an obs I suppose.
<ul><li>Motion tracking goggles that replace flashlight. Cost 5 pres. Use energy so cannot use them all the time. When a marine hears a skulk they would turn them on.</li><li>Highly radiated torch that replaces flashlight. Aiming it at an alien causes them to decloak. Costs 5 pres.</li></ul>
On of those would be an interesting dynamic. The first would not help marines see structures or stationary aliens that are cloaked, while the second would. However the second cannot see through walls.
Now... just to be perfectly clear... my list of excuses pertains to every time I've had this kind of debate on every RTS ever. (HI MASTERBLASTER!)
I wasn't looking for you to rebut it... the fact that you did says you're being a bit defensive. No need. Just post the YT vids or replays... I'll be happy to watch/learn.
I was thinking maybe something like a portable scanner. Would cost some pres (& research.) Aliens have the option of taking out the user, getting back their advantage. Maybe even one marine has to hold it for it to be active, and can't fire while doing so. Aliens style motion tracker anyone? :P
At the 3 people that are using this thread to talk about camo being a balance problem. I appreciate that you keep this thread on the front page, but you have written all that already in the other camo threads. I would appreciate it much more, if you could focus on the topic of the camo mechanic itself. The balancing comes after tweaking the mechanic and isn't this big of a deal. But to start with, we should talk about what is fun in the camo mechanic and if or if not a marine on the field should at least have a chance against an camo alien without starting with a 150 damage disadvantage and the loss of his ranged-advantage.
Thank you.
discussing a game mechanic is one thing, but there are multiple threads like "marines should have 70 round clips" and "camo is broken" or how about the "marines in vents" thread.
these arent discussions, these are complaints. discussions are something that will add to the game, not complaints about game mechanics that X player has a problem with.
My favorite variation is instantaneous continuous cloak when going toward max speed (cloak ~ speed), with uncloak when hit (with some unspecified cooldown to re-cloak), removal of scan uncloak and fixing of obs circles.
I agree with you on that. But this thread isn't about complaining. If you would read at least the tl;dr part, you may be able to contribute.
In th spirit of the whole marine vs alien theme, marine group with shooters and snoopers cooperatively sweeping and clearing spaces needs to be in the game. At times when you are facing camo aliens as an individual marine wanting to expand the marine map control, you have to depend nearly totally on a commander to sweep ahead. To much so. A marine showing intitative can not see nor hear a camo alien. The only warning is a sudden stopping of claws going silent or the first two 75 point bites on your ass. Both cases you strip the skill mechanic of keeping sharp eyes or keen hearing.
What I would like to see tested experimented with.
Marine Kharaa scanner
5 pres - orange light emitting device that when swept over a room would change texture on camo kharaa or structure to orange model. The kharaa is still stealthed even when the beam is removed from them, requiring a marine to maintain focus on them or quickly switch to a weapon to hit them. kharaa scanner wouldn't ping them on the map. Other idea similar to a scanner is a one time use flare,similar to final fantasy spirit within. Would reveal a space for a certain amount of time before burning out. <a href="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GnE64DbnUzY#t=m57s" target="_blank">http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GnE64DbnUzY#t=0m57s</a>
Marine observatory
No longer take aliens out of stealth. Only highlights them on the map view or mini map and does not put a big circle target on them. This could serve as a warning of alien attack but not strip aliens of being able to sneak past marines or sentries.
Alien camo
95% invisibility while moving at all, but their must be a slight shimmer or some tell for marines to at least try to spot. Stationary kharaa will have full invisibility. Reduced further if moving full speed, perhaps some sort of distortion field effect? Ns2 worked so hard in having plenty of nooks and crannies with aliens capable of wall walking that to casually walk up to a clueless marine staring / straining to hear you is, meh.
When you look at ever weapon structure or evolution, there is something to combat it. In the case of a marine, he lacks a tool against camo. They have flamers for spores, shotguns for carapace, grenades vs. whips, mines and hydra for static defense...etc.
This is absolutely right. If aliens can't secure at least a 2nd hive, they got a real problem in mid and late game. This fact balances camo really nice right now. In a risk - reward sense.
But if you are fair, if aliens can't secure a 2nd tech point early on, (before the marines got an obs there,) they probably wouldn't have saved it with cara or celerity. It is highly difficult to create an opinion on anecdotal knowledge. Because you never know, if the skill-gap between the team where this much off, that camo had any influence on the outcome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The argument is more that Gorges, Onos, Fades, and Lerks all benefit more from Craig and Shift upgrades than from Shade upgrades. Consequently, if the alien team only has 2 hives, and one of those hives is a shade hive, your late game lifeforms are all "crippled" (to a degree anyways, they don't have their ideal set up), and in the late game camo doesn't help skulks enough to offset the need for late game lifeforms.
The argument has nothing to do with the second tech point. The argument is an argument based on the third tech point. If you have gone camo, and you cannot secure a third tech point (which is a very realistic scenario) you have shot yourself in the foot.
This was more true in NS1 before focus. There's some things in NS2 that weaken this scenario, scans costing money, power node rushes, and celerity being nerfed to hell most notably. But it still is true for NS2 on some levels.
[edit] Ok, actually, Ops whole post is either intentionally wrong (he's trying to make a straw man out of the opposing side) or he's ignorant of what the opposing side is actually saying. It's a great long thing that is full of wasted words. He's laboring under the assumption that Shade first gets "saved" by the second hive, which is not the case, and that good commanders are worse than they actually are. The "camo-is-weak" argument goes "It's weak because you have weaker 2 hive options" meaning that you need both shift and craig upgrades in the 2 hive midgame, and going shade weakens that midgame because you must choose to sacrifice either shift or craig. And that good commanders have to scan not more than 2 times a minute on average. Not the approximately 6 times a minute op is claiming, and thus the cost of scan is not a significant impediment to counter camo.
My main point is, that marines on the field should be able to counter camo without relying heavily on the commander. My secondary point is, that camo needs to be balanced again after this. I have written down my ideas on how to do this in the TL;DR section.
Now to your critic point:
I actually agree with you, as you can read in the part you quoted. The aliens are in a disadvantage in mid- and late-game when going shade hive first and when they can't secure a second and third hive. But this isn't black and white. Cara and adren are very important for higher life forms. But without one of them they haven't lost immediately. How much this disadvantage weighs against the early game camo advantage can't be told with anecdotal stories.
95% invisibility while moving at all, but their must be a slight shimmer or some tell for marines to at least try to spot. Stationary kharaa will have full invisibility. Reduced further if moving full speed, perhaps some sort of distortion field effect? Ns2 worked so hard in having plenty of nooks and crannies with aliens capable of wall walking that to casually walk up to a clueless marine staring / straining to hear you is, meh.
When you look at ever weapon structure or evolution, there is something to combat it. In the case of a marine, he lacks a tool against camo. They have flamers for spores, shotguns for carapace, grenades vs. whips, mines and hydra for static defense...etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While nice in prospect its too easy to cheat with any level of visibility / Camo texture while moving, people will simply mod it to make it more visible. It needs to be 100% invisible to work movement wise
Still not sold on that. Less than 100% invisibility can be simulated in several ways. The correct choice depends on what the desired effect is. A ghost like look that suggests non-corporeal origin? Semi transparent washed out textures with a little silhouette glow. Comical effect? Footprints like in so many cartoons. Camouflage that's hard to spot unless the target is moving? Background distortion. Want to make it look impressive for the viewers' benefit? Add edge highlighting like in the movie Predator. Etc...
UWE picked the wrong implementation, that's all. See Starcraft for an example of how it should be done. Make player textures completely invisible and distort background textures as a function of camera angle on model surface. 3rd party texture manipulation is a non issue since they are 100% transparent, and because you do nothing but displace background pixels without touching any color values, gamma correction / brightness settings don't make a difference.
The marines would see a subtle distortion when they're near cloaked aliens. This distortion would intensify as the marines got closer to the aliens, but it wouldn't change as they looked towards or away from the cloaked aliens.
And I would also advocate a passive ability that that builds upon the sensory aspect of the tree and helps more throughout the game. Maybe something like marine outlines that change colors with primary weapon changes in alien vision. For instance, if you have a shotgun your outline could be red and a grenade launcher could be green and flamethrowers' flames would be visible.
You could even have it only work when at 100% cloak so you can see which marine to attack but then it goes back to normal when you move, to keep things interesting...
My main point is, that marines on the field should be able to counter camo without relying heavily on the commander. My secondary point is, that camo needs to be balanced again after this. I have written down my ideas on how to do this in the TL;DR section.
Now to your critic point:
I actually agree with you, as you can read in the part you quoted. The aliens are in a disadvantage in mid- and late-game when going shade hive first and when they can't secure a second and third hive. But this isn't black and white. Cara and adren are very important for higher life forms. But without one of them they haven't lost immediately. How much this disadvantage weighs against the early game camo advantage can't be told with anecdotal stories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your post is pretty specific that "securing the second hive shouldn't be a problem" and therefore you feel the argument about a weaker mid game is weak. That argument never involved securing a second hive. The argument that the midgame is weaker ENTIRELY rests on having onos without both celerity and carapasc. Both upgrades are "needed" to have a maximum strength mid game. I agree with you that there's a lot of grey area on this specific issue. How much of a qualitative advantage do you REALLY get with celerity? How much does adrenaline really change the late game? (good fades don't need it, good lerks can manage without it). Certainly it's OFTEN better than camo, but camo onos are pretty annoying as well, and scans are more often missed in the late game, especially near marine encampments. However, you don't explore that deep. You basically say "well, aliens will get the second hive, and therefore they are still good" and that specific point just doesn't really address the real argument at all. No one is seriously debating that somehow shade first makes it impossible to get the second hive up.
You also argue that "scanning for 2 advancing groups cost the amount of res you create with 3 resource towers. You need to scan every 14 seconds to secure a group that is not near an obs." This is just patently false. You do not need to scan every 14 seconds. You very rarely need to scan more than every 30 seconds, and it's rare to have more than 1 group you are scan babysitting. There are large portions of the game, for example, any time aliens are heavily pushing a secure area, where you just don't really need to scan at all for minutes at a time. Scanning is not necessarily the res hog that camo proponents claim it is. This is part of what makes a good commander good at countering cloak, it's NOT wasting res on scanning. If a commander is "countering" cloak by dumping all their res into scans then they are NOT good. The skill is in the balancing point, in scanning enough to put the aliens at a disadvantage but not so much that you hurt yourself. In fact, you should be scanning SOME even if aliens DO NOT go camo. The motion tracking effect alone makes scanning worth it in many scenarios. Against cloak frequency at which a good commander scans only slightly goes up.
ADDITIONALLY. Shade chambers are not free either, most alien comms spend FAR FAR FAAAAAAAR more Tres dropping shade chambers than a marine commander spends scanning marines. You almost NEVER see an alien commander just go shade hive and not spend/waste res on early game shade chambers. The res argument goes both ways.
Your claim is that you are summarizing the position against camo first. You are not. You have not addressed any of the points made by those who argue that camo first is weak. The points you are addressing are a weaker non-existant position that no one holds. This is the DEFINITION of making a straw man. The only thing I don't know is whether you are doing it intentionally or weather you are just ignorant to believe that people with the stance that camo first is bad actually believe the things you attribute to them.
Either way, it's VERY bad form to tell someone else what they believe/are arguing. ESPECIALLY when you're SO inaccurate.
UWE picked the wrong implementation, that's all. See Starcraft for an example of how it should be done. Make player textures completely invisible and distort background textures as a function of camera angle on model surface. 3rd party texture manipulation is a non issue since they are 100% transparent, and because you do nothing but displace background pixels without touching any color values, gamma correction / brightness settings don't make a difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only real way to work it would be partial texture visibility, the problem then is that if the texture uses see through sections it can still be modded to show up. Essentially it would have to be hard coded into the game to only show certain areas of the texture. Going with ghost effects means it can still be modded as there will be a texture file, hence glowing red thing, same with any distortion effects they can simply mod the texture to make them show up easily