<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=125921&view=findpost&p=2044458" target="_blank">this is my favorite power node discussion thread. excellent summaries with plenty of intelligent and well-written posts detailing why it is a broken system in its current state. good posts by Yuuki, Zed, and Tweadle.</a>
inevitably, threads <i>will</i> keep appearing because the system is flawed. people who don't have a clue will continue to post, and after a certain point it gets tiresome to defeat the same old arguments over and over again. sometimes they aren't even brought by new people, which is almost embarrassing.
Imagine if pong was reimagined but you paddled balls of ###### back and forth, and sometimes that ###### splattered in your face, or the ###### ball hit a lever on the top of the screen and it flushed both players down the drain.
I mean who could pass that ###### up. ###### pong 2.
<!--quoteo(post=2053855:date=Dec 31 2012, 08:49 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 31 2012, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry, res, but it's clear that your understanding of this game is too shallow for you to see the significant limitations infestation and the powergris impose upon gameplay. I wish I had the time to patiently explain it to you, but I don't.
I've been posting less and less on here, as some of the beta posters may have noticed. I'm tired of every discussion on these forums being clogged up because every new person posting resetting it to zero. I'm tired of having to explain every basic little detail. I guess I'm plain tired of trying to get anything across on here, because it is utterly futile and a waste of time. Reading Savant's spamming mindless drivel page after page in every thread is sucking the life out of me, and I've had enough. This will be the last post I write here, outside of my own threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2053878:date=Jan 1 2013, 06:04 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quite simply you are wrong and just refuse to admit it. Most likely you are just someone from NS1 who can't stand the new features. Powernodes and Infestation changes the way in how buildings work and how they are placed compared to NS1, this actually ADDS strategy to the gameplay, it doesn't limit it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just wanted to point out that fanatic is one of the top competitive ns2 players, and that anybody in top-tier competitive play is going to be fairly well informed about the strategic potential of various features...
<!--quoteo(post=2054006:date=Jan 1 2013, 12:09 AM:name=fiveseven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fiveseven @ Jan 1 2013, 12:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wanted to point out that fanatic is one of the top competitive ns2 players, and that anybody in top-tier competitive play is going to be fairly well informed about the strategic potential of various features...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read through the thread posted about powernodes and the first thing I noticed is that people were posting their views only without looking at the bigger picture.
Needing powernodes for buildings, while limiting where you can place buildings in a map, does the reverse of adding strategy rather than limiting it. This is mainly because marines always have to be mindful of powernodes and do what they can strategically to keep them up, while Aliens do what they must strategically to bring them down. That in itself adds more strategy to the game than by not having them at all. Reverse is true for infestation. However, with the added benefit that how you approach room(s) strategically depends on whether there is infestation or not.
<b>There is one other rather LARGE thing I noticed with that thread and some peoples opinions. It is apparent to me that powernodes do not work as well in a small teamplay setting like 6v6.</b> As it would be far too easy to rush a main marine base and take the powernode down with so few players spread through such large maps. Whereas in large pub games, this problem does not exist except because you usually always have a number of people in main bases.
Because someone may be a high level competitive player, their view is skewed to only see the small team based setting.
It seems to me that the views of people in that thread about powernodes are from their perspective of smaller team based games like 6v6.
<!--quoteo(post=2053855:date=Dec 31 2012, 12:49 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 31 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been posting less and less on here, as some of the beta posters may have noticed. I'm tired of every discussion on these forums being clogged up because every new person posting resetting it to zero. I'm tired of having to explain every basic little detail. I guess I'm plain tired of trying to get anything across on here, because it is utterly futile and a waste of time. Reading Savant's spamming mindless drivel page after page in every thread is sucking the life out of me, and I've had enough. This will be the last post I write here, outside of my own threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But what if someone says that Umbra is OP, what then?
<!--quoteo(post=2053340:date=Dec 30 2012, 10:06 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 30 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I said it repeatedly during the beta, and I'll say it again: the powernode and infestation mechanics are two of the weakest components of ns2 gameplay, even destructive to good gameplay in some instances. That they are also detrimental to performance adds insult to injury.
If the devs can't find a legitimate purpose for them, and alleviate the performance hit, I pray that they have the confidence to cut them out of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2054021:date=Dec 31 2012, 10:02 PM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Dec 31 2012, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I read through the thread posted about powernodes and the first thing I noticed is that people were posting their views only without looking at the bigger picture.
Needing powernodes for buildings, while limiting where you can place buildings in a map, does the reverse of adding strategy rather than limiting it. This is mainly because marines always have to be mindful of powernodes and do what they can strategically to keep them up, while Aliens do what they must strategically to bring them down. That in itself adds more strategy to the game than by not having them at all. Reverse is true for infestation. However, with the added benefit that how you approach room(s) strategically depends on whether there is infestation or not.
<b>There is one other rather LARGE thing I noticed with that thread and some peoples opinions. It is apparent to me that powernodes do not work as well in a small teamplay setting like 6v6.</b> As it would be far too easy to rush a main marine base and take the powernode down with so few players spread through such large maps. Whereas in large pub games, this problem does not exist except because you usually always have a number of people in main bases.
Because someone may be a high level competitive player, their view is skewed to only see the small team based setting.
It seems to me that the views of people in that thread about powernodes are from their perspective of smaller team based games like 6v6.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, you are mistaken. Most people who have figured out how pointless powernodes are dont even waste their time with them, even whilst playing on 24 player server. Its mostly the new players that chomp down powernodes. In a 6 vs 6 match, if you waste time on powernodes you lose, its that simple.
Time is a resource too, and powernodes = a time sink. Wasting time on powernodes means your not damaging the marine economy.
<!--quoteo(post=2054063:date=Jan 1 2013, 04:24 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jan 1 2013, 04:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no, you are mistaken. Most people who have figured out how pointless powernodes are dont even waste their time with them, even whilst playing on 24 player server. Its mostly the new players that chomp down powernodes. In a 6 vs 6 match, if you waste time on powernodes you lose, its that simple.
Time is a resource too, and powernodes = a time sink. Wasting time on powernodes means your not damaging the marine economy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Powernodes can be used strategically by Aliens. However, as I said in an earlier post, the strategies work better in larger servers and not so much smaller matches. It seems that the people who think they are a waste mostly have the viewpoint from small player matches and not from larger teams.
<b> Strategy #1) </b>
If you destroy a power node and hear some marines coming along. Hide in a corner and wait for them to start repairing it. When they have their backs turned take em out!
<b>Strategy #2) </b>
Take out the powernode to turn the lights off and kill the helpless marines who can't see or any marines that wander into the darkness. This works great if you can take it out from afar as a lerk, then your teammates can rush in and mop up.
<b> Strategy #3)</b>
An obvious one. Take out the powernode to prevent Infanty portals and phasegates from working and any other buildings.
<b>Strategy #4)</b>
Get a power node down to where it is almost gone. Wait for some marines to come, 1-shot the power node, then proceed to take out the marines.
If you destroy a power node and hear some marines coming along. Hide in a corner and wait for them to start repairing it. When they have their backs turned take em out!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a tactic, not a strategy. If you had killed something that cost the marines resources, like an RT, you would have done more damage and you could try the same tactic.
Take out the powernode to turn the lights off and kill the helpless marines who can't see or any marines that wander into the darkness. This works great if you can take it out from afar as a lerk, then your teammates can rush in and mop up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An obvious one. Take out the powernode to prevent Infanty portals and phasegates from working and any other buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This represents a vast reduction of strategy. When marines have a power node in their base it becomes an obvious choice to attack it. Where as in NS1 you had an interesting strategic or tactical choice(as the case may be) whether you want to snipe an armory to make them re-research advanced armory or kill an IP to reduce their respawn rate, or kill an armslab to temporarily deny them upgrades and make them re-research whatever was upgrading, or kill a protolab to deny them JP and HA and cancel whatever was researching, or attack an obs to either force them to beacon or make them lose the ability to beacon.
Get a power node down to where it is almost gone. Wait for some marines to come, 1-shot the power node, then proceed to take out the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a tactic and not a very good one. Darkness is not as big of an advantage for aliens as you seem to think it is and when you hit that power node you hand your position and class to the marines on a silver platter.
<!--quoteo(post=2054079:date=Jan 1 2013, 03:01 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 03:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Powernodes can be used strategically by Aliens. However, as I said in an earlier post, the strategies work better in larger servers and not so much smaller matches. It seems that the people who think they are a waste mostly have the viewpoint from small player matches and not from larger teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2054123:date=Jan 1 2013, 04:18 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 1 2013, 04:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you know how quickly a gorge takes down a power node, by itself?
A single 2 hive gorge can shutdown an entire marine base in about 12 seconds. How is that losing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean about 30
BUT PULLING RANDOM NUMBERS OUT OF NOWHERE IS GOOD TOO
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Highly unlikely infestation and cysts are going anywhere given the recent visual upgrade. I don't have a problem with infestation as a territorial marker but cysts are not fun to shoot and not fun to build.
Why did cysts replace the old system anyway, I can't even remember.
<!--quoteo(post=2054131:date=Jan 1 2013, 04:40 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 1 2013, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TO THE BAT CAVE. And by that I mean a server with bots.
A single gorge destroys a power node in 14.5 seconds. I apologise for my inaccuracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess that's if you bile it head-on 100% accuracy.
Usually us poor gorges are fleeing in terror while bile bombing, don't have adrenaline, ect ect. Takes a bit longer, but your point is still proven, continue.
<!--quoteo(post=2054079:date=Jan 1 2013, 10:01 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Drivel and Stupor<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You sir are utterly lolduckbathtubtarded.
You are probably a member of that special group of people who, when trying to break a marine turtle, shout "attack the powernode" under any circumstances.
If the base is empty and marines are far from pg: Obs, PG, CC If the base is empty and marines are at a pg: PG, Obs, CC or (maybe) Power. If the base is empty and you have 3, 4 players: CC If the base is full: CC
Truth is that power nodes rarely change the metagame for the better in any circumstances. The time they affect the game are: Forward phase gates, you are forced to build your PG next to the power-node in most cases so it is easier to defend. The neck is a good example of this, most people build PG's in the neck to assault Pipe, however it leaves the powernode vulnerable from behind, consider the diferences between C12 and the Dome where pgs can be build next to the Pnode.
Hard to protect power nodes: Cargo, Flight control, datacore, Control. Due to the placement of some power nodes on tech points it becomes very difficult to build your structures in the ideal location aswell as defending the power node. Is this adding to stratergy?
An example of a well placed power node might be Shipping or Sub access: This is because they are strategically placed so that aliens have to be stood inside your base to kill them next to both IPs, PGs and the CC. However in this case it means that they are rarely ever attacked because if you have to stand next to the Obs to attack the Power Node, you might as well attack the obs.
So... Powernodes are only ever attacked in the locations where the mapper has placed them in a vulnerable spot and thus their ease to kill out weighs the fact they are of less use to kill...
So essentially its a way for mappers to troll commanders with a "easy way to kill your base building". All this really does is REMOVE from the strategy of the game, a marine team is forced to follow the decisions of the mapper.
Wow I cant believe I went to the bother of writing all this...
Oh and: <!--quoteo(post=2053855:date=Dec 31 2012, 08:49 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 31 2012, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry, res, but it's clear that your understanding of this game is too shallow for you to see the significant limitations infestation and the powergris impose upon gameplay. I wish I had the time to patiently explain it to you, but I don't.
I've been posting less and less on here, as some of the beta posters may have noticed. I'm tired of every discussion on these forums being clogged up because every new person posting resetting it to zero. I'm tired of having to explain every basic little detail. I guess I'm plain tired of trying to get anything across on here, because it is utterly futile and a waste of time. Reading Savant's spamming mindless drivel page after page in every thread is sucking the life out of me, and I've had enough. This will be the last post I write here, outside of my own threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of what you refer to are map issues, and relate in no way specifically to power nodes. Some hives, like containment and sub access, can be directly assaulted without marines ever needing to enter the actual hive room. Should we also remove hives from the game? They clearly contribute nothing.
<!--quoteo(post=2054175:date=Jan 1 2013, 03:24 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 1 2013, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most of what you refer to are map issues, and relate in no way specifically to power nodes. Some hives, like containment and sub access, can be directly assaulted without marines ever needing to enter the actual hive room. Should we also remove hives from the game? They clearly contribute nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not a map issue, power nodes are stationary... thus no matter where you place them people will complain.
Gonna make mappers moved them every week? Secondly as you will see I pointed out... The ones that <b>are not</b> complained about are <b>utterly superfluous</b> to game play and meta game because they are never attacked.
Thus proving they are not needed or wanted.
Might as well make phase gates only build-able in set situations like hives if you enjoy that ######.
How many times have you heard aliens say: "Woo hoo yeah, that totally exposed and easily kill able power node that we just killed makes us badasses and thus that game was epic!"
How many times do marines say: "Lol, we lost due to a mapper putting power node in a stupid place... Gay Game."
<b>Remove Infestation/Cyst game-mechanic</b>, and make it appear around alien structures/territory automatically. (so its basically only eyecandy, with option to completely disable it for a little better performance in the options)
<b>Remove Powernode game-mechanic</b>, think of different ways to implement lit and unlit areas. (eg areas with alien structures are naturally dimmed, light flicker on attacking marine structures, chamber abilites to power down lights for a short duration)
Feel free to make better suggestions in google moderator comments.
EDIT:
<u>Please post a comment in google moderator, if you disagree... (why?)</u> So we can either find a solution to the reason why you have to disagree or at least have a interesting discussion to give ppl something more to consider before voting.
If you destroy a power node and hear some marines coming along. Hide in a corner and wait for them to start repairing it. When they have their backs turned take em out!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) the marine team will be happy that you damaged a worthless powernode instead a structure that costs resources. (so they can either recycle and get most res back of other structures around or have a longer time to setup an attack to capture the area back) b) the marine team will be happy that you are damaging such a high health armor building giving them more time to get to you c) the marine team knows that you attack a powernode, and will also know that you might be hiding or gone to another place if they get to this position without seeing an alien.
So they can either try to get you into engaging them by starting to weld and abort, they can check the closest hiding positions, they can ask for a scan by the commander. Also the marines will usually have attention by the commander(if they cant afford to lose the power in this area) since he is also aware that something just attacked a building...
Tho not that its a bad tactic... but its usuallly better to attack/destroy anything but powernodes first if you want to do this.
Take out the powernode to turn the lights off and kill the helpless marines who can't see or any marines that wander into the darkness. This works great if you can take it out from afar as a lerk, then your teammates can rush in and mop up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So while parts of my first answer are also applying here, at least i have numerous ideas how to keep this game mechanic tho remove powernodes.
An obvious one. Take out the powernode to prevent Infanty portals and phasegates from working and any other buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Powernodes have nearly as much health as a commandstation... attacking powernodes get you into a bad position - limited dodging and seeing. (since you are standing in front of a wall looking at it)
So at a phasegate, attacking the weaker phasegate and using it and maybe other buildings or props as cover will be better. Same is true for base attacks, a commandstation doesnt have that much more health but provides a lot of cover since its big. Also a commandstation potentially 100% game ending, while a powernode is not. (you need a 2nd commandstation to replace it, powernodes can just be rebuilt after a few seconds)
If you had enough time to destroy a powernode, in 99% of the cases you could have also just destroyed the command station in this situation.
And again dont let us forget that a powernode is worth 0 res.
Get a power node down to where it is almost gone. Wait for some marines to come, 1-shot the power node, then proceed to take out the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again there are numerous things uwe could implement to give a similar expirience /gameplay mechanic to use.
<!--quoteo(post=2054179:date=Jan 1 2013, 05:31 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Jan 1 2013, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its not a map issue, power nodes are stationary... thus no matter where you place them people will complain.
Gonna make mappers moved them every week? Secondly as you will see I pointed out... The ones that <b>are not</b> complained about are <b>utterly superfluous</b> to game play and meta game because they are never attacked.
Thus proving they are not needed or wanted.
Might as well make phase gates only build-able in set situations like hives if you enjoy that ######.
How many times have you heard aliens say: "Woo hoo yeah, that totally exposed and easily kill able power node that we just killed makes us badasses and thus that game was epic!"
How many times do marines say: "Lol, we lost due to a mapper putting power node in a stupid place... Gay Game."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then power nodes are either placed badly by the map maker, in which case they should be rectified, much like the terminal and flight control power node, or they (according to you) have absolutely no influence on gameplay whatsoever and are essentially eye candy and a mechanism for making things dark.
So what exactly is your problem with them? You blatantly state that they aren't affecting your game in the slightest, unless its a fault of the mappers.
If it weren't for power nodes, I think marines would be winning 60-70% of the time. Its really really easy to lose as marines because of power nodes. If you have a push on a hive, all it takes is two people going to marine base, going gorge, and bile bombing the piss out of the power. This shuts off IP's, arms lab, phasegate, beacon. I've been in plenty of games where "let's rush main base and take out the power" has won the game when we should have lost.
Edit: How did a converstation about turning infestation off turn into bickering about powernodes?
<!--quoteo(post=2054221:date=Jan 1 2013, 07:39 PM:name=Azaral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azaral @ Jan 1 2013, 07:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it weren't for power nodes, I think marines would be winning 60-70% of the time. Its really really easy to lose as marines because of power nodes. If you have a push on a hive, all it takes is two people going to marine base, going gorge, and bile bombing the piss out of the power. This shuts off IP's, arms lab, phasegate, beacon. I've been in plenty of games where "let's rush main base and take out the power" has won the game when we should have lost.
Edit: How did a converstation about turning infestation off turn into bickering about powernodes?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People claim that the best way to reduce the performance loss of infestation is to remove the infestation mechanic, along with the power node mechanic, entirely.
In the scenarios you outlined, its unlikely that the marine team lost simply because the aliens decided to hit the power node. I've seen marines with 3 tech point rooms lose in the exact way you just outlined, and then turn around and blame the power node system. Commanders who are unwilling to build extra comm chairs and extra IPs deserve to lose. It was exactly the same when power packs were around. Everyone complained that the power node was so weak and vulnerable, yet they all refused point blank to build backup power packs.
Players seem to despise pre-emptive measures against losing. They are just all or nothing the whole time, except when they get nothing. Then they want it changed.
<!--quoteo(post=2054226:date=Jan 1 2013, 09:51 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 1 2013, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People claim that the best way to reduce the performance loss of infestation is to remove the infestation mechanic, along with the power node mechanic, entirely.
In the scenarios you outlined, its unlikely that the marine team lost simply because the aliens decided to hit the power node. I've seen marines with 3 tech point rooms lose in the exact way you just outlined, and then turn around and blame the power node system. Commanders who are unwilling to build extra comm chairs and extra IPs deserve to lose. It was exactly the same when power packs were around. Everyone complained that the power node was so weak and vulnerable, yet they all refused point blank to build backup power packs.
Players seem to despise pre-emptive measures against losing. They are just all or nothing the whole time, except when they get nothing. Then they want it changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but if it's been a tough fight the entire game, you might not have the resources available for backups. A 2nd CC is probably going to be around for exo's and jp's, but they might not have IP's there.
I would prefer if my power idea got tried instead. It makes every power node relevant in both building and destroying. There are a lot of power nodes I've never seen built except when they get placed because the commander dropped a node in a tech point room and the other node also got placed (it seems to drop nodes in a radius around the one drop) and the auto "go build this' pops up for someone who is compelled to build every structure. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126310" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=126310</a>
Comments
inevitably, threads <i>will</i> keep appearing because the system is flawed. people who don't have a clue will continue to post, and after a certain point it gets tiresome to defeat the same old arguments over and over again. sometimes they aren't even brought by new people, which is almost embarrassing.
I mean who could pass that ###### up. ###### pong 2.
I've been posting less and less on here, as some of the beta posters may have noticed. I'm tired of every discussion on these forums being clogged up because every new person posting resetting it to zero. I'm tired of having to explain every basic little detail. I guess I'm plain tired of trying to get anything across on here, because it is utterly futile and a waste of time. Reading Savant's spamming mindless drivel page after page in every thread is sucking the life out of me, and I've had enough. This will be the last post I write here, outside of my own threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 xD
Just wanted to point out that fanatic is one of the top competitive ns2 players, and that anybody in top-tier competitive play is going to be fairly well informed about the strategic potential of various features...
I read through the thread posted about powernodes and the first thing I noticed is that people were posting their views only without looking at the bigger picture.
Needing powernodes for buildings, while limiting where you can place buildings in a map, does the reverse of adding strategy rather than limiting it. This is mainly because marines always have to be mindful of powernodes and do what they can strategically to keep them up, while Aliens do what they must strategically to bring them down. That in itself adds more strategy to the game than by not having them at all. Reverse is true for infestation. However, with the added benefit that how you approach room(s) strategically depends on whether there is infestation or not.
<b>There is one other rather LARGE thing I noticed with that thread and some peoples opinions. It is apparent to me that powernodes do not work as well in a small teamplay setting like 6v6.</b> As it would be far too easy to rush a main marine base and take the powernode down with so few players spread through such large maps. Whereas in large pub games, this problem does not exist except because you usually always have a number of people in main bases.
Because someone may be a high level competitive player, their view is skewed to only see the small team based setting.
It seems to me that the views of people in that thread about powernodes are from their perspective of smaller team based games like 6v6.
But what if someone says that Umbra is OP, what then?
<a href="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=109537600&searchtext=" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/file...amp;searchtext=</a>
gives a huge fps increase
If the devs can't find a legitimate purpose for them, and alleviate the performance hit, I pray that they have the confidence to cut them out of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+9001
Needing powernodes for buildings, while limiting where you can place buildings in a map, does the reverse of adding strategy rather than limiting it. This is mainly because marines always have to be mindful of powernodes and do what they can strategically to keep them up, while Aliens do what they must strategically to bring them down. That in itself adds more strategy to the game than by not having them at all. Reverse is true for infestation. However, with the added benefit that how you approach room(s) strategically depends on whether there is infestation or not.
<b>There is one other rather LARGE thing I noticed with that thread and some peoples opinions. It is apparent to me that powernodes do not work as well in a small teamplay setting like 6v6.</b> As it would be far too easy to rush a main marine base and take the powernode down with so few players spread through such large maps. Whereas in large pub games, this problem does not exist except because you usually always have a number of people in main bases.
Because someone may be a high level competitive player, their view is skewed to only see the small team based setting.
It seems to me that the views of people in that thread about powernodes are from their perspective of smaller team based games like 6v6.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, you are mistaken. Most people who have figured out how pointless powernodes are dont even waste their time with them, even whilst playing on 24 player server. Its mostly the new players that chomp down powernodes. In a 6 vs 6 match, if you waste time on powernodes you lose, its that simple.
Time is a resource too, and powernodes = a time sink. Wasting time on powernodes means your not damaging the marine economy.
Time is a resource too, and powernodes = a time sink. Wasting time on powernodes means your not damaging the marine economy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Powernodes can be used strategically by Aliens. However, as I said in an earlier post, the strategies work better in larger servers and not so much smaller matches. It seems that the people who think they are a waste mostly have the viewpoint from small player matches and not from larger teams.
<b>
Strategy #1) </b>
If you destroy a power node and hear some marines coming along. Hide in a corner and wait for them to start repairing it. When they have their backs turned take em out!
<b>Strategy #2)
</b>
Take out the powernode to turn the lights off and kill the helpless marines who can't see or any marines that wander into the darkness. This works great if you can take it out from afar as a lerk, then your teammates can rush in and mop up.
<b>
Strategy #3)</b>
An obvious one. Take out the powernode to prevent Infanty portals and phasegates from working and any other buildings.
<b>Strategy #4)</b>
Get a power node down to where it is almost gone. Wait for some marines to come, 1-shot the power node, then proceed to take out the marines.
Strategy #1) </b>
If you destroy a power node and hear some marines coming along. Hide in a corner and wait for them to start repairing it. When they have their backs turned take em out!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a tactic, not a strategy. If you had killed something that cost the marines resources, like an RT, you would have done more damage and you could try the same tactic.
<!--quoteo(post=2054079:date=Jan 1 2013, 05:01 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 05:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Strategy #2)
</b>
Take out the powernode to turn the lights off and kill the helpless marines who can't see or any marines that wander into the darkness. This works great if you can take it out from afar as a lerk, then your teammates can rush in and mop up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's also a tactic and not a very good one.
<!--quoteo(post=2054079:date=Jan 1 2013, 05:01 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 05:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>
Strategy #3)</b>
An obvious one. Take out the powernode to prevent Infanty portals and phasegates from working and any other buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This represents a vast reduction of strategy. When marines have a power node in their base it becomes an obvious choice to attack it. Where as in NS1 you had an interesting strategic or tactical choice(as the case may be) whether you want to snipe an armory to make them re-research advanced armory or kill an IP to reduce their respawn rate, or kill an armslab to temporarily deny them upgrades and make them re-research whatever was upgrading, or kill a protolab to deny them JP and HA and cancel whatever was researching, or attack an obs to either force them to beacon or make them lose the ability to beacon.
<!--quoteo(post=2054079:date=Jan 1 2013, 05:01 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 05:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Strategy #4)</b>
Get a power node down to where it is almost gone. Wait for some marines to come, 1-shot the power node, then proceed to take out the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a tactic and not a very good one. Darkness is not as big of an advantage for aliens as you seem to think it is and when you hit that power node you hand your position and class to the marines on a silver platter.
i give up
fine, learn the hard way
fine, learn the hard way<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you know how quickly a gorge takes down a power node, by itself?
A single 2 hive gorge can shutdown an entire marine base in about 12 seconds. How is that losing?
A single 2 hive gorge can shutdown an entire marine base in about 12 seconds. How is that losing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean about 30
BUT PULLING RANDOM NUMBERS OUT OF NOWHERE IS GOOD TOO
BUT PULLING RANDOM NUMBERS OUT OF NOWHERE IS GOOD TOO<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TO THE BAT CAVE. And by that I mean a server with bots.
A single gorge destroys a power node in 14.5 seconds. I apologise for my inaccuracy.
Why did cysts replace the old system anyway, I can't even remember.
A single gorge destroys a power node in 14.5 seconds. I apologise for my inaccuracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess that's if you bile it head-on 100% accuracy.
Usually us poor gorges are fleeing in terror while bile bombing, don't have adrenaline, ect ect. Takes a bit longer, but your point is still proven, continue.
You sir are utterly lolduckbathtubtarded.
You are probably a member of that special group of people who, when trying to break a marine turtle, shout "attack the powernode" under any circumstances.
If the base is empty and marines are far from pg: Obs, PG, CC
If the base is empty and marines are at a pg: PG, Obs, CC or (maybe) Power.
If the base is empty and you have 3, 4 players: CC
If the base is full: CC
Truth is that power nodes rarely change the metagame for the better in any circumstances.
The time they affect the game are:
Forward phase gates, you are forced to build your PG next to the power-node in most cases so it is easier to defend.
The neck is a good example of this, most people build PG's in the neck to assault Pipe, however it leaves the powernode vulnerable from behind, consider the diferences between C12 and the Dome where pgs can be build next to the Pnode.
Hard to protect power nodes:
Cargo, Flight control, datacore, Control.
Due to the placement of some power nodes on tech points it becomes very difficult to build your structures in the ideal location aswell as defending the power node. Is this adding to stratergy?
An example of a well placed power node might be Shipping or Sub access: This is because they are strategically placed so that aliens have to be stood inside your base to kill them next to both IPs, PGs and the CC. However in this case it means that they are rarely ever attacked because if you have to stand next to the Obs to attack the Power Node, you might as well attack the obs.
So... Powernodes are only ever attacked in the locations where the mapper has placed them in a vulnerable spot and thus their ease to kill out weighs the fact they are of less use to kill...
So essentially its a way for mappers to troll commanders with a "easy way to kill your base building".
All this really does is REMOVE from the strategy of the game, a marine team is forced to follow the decisions of the mapper.
Wow I cant believe I went to the bother of writing all this...
Oh and:
<!--quoteo(post=2053855:date=Dec 31 2012, 08:49 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 31 2012, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry, res, but it's clear that your understanding of this game is too shallow for you to see the significant limitations infestation and the powergris impose upon gameplay. I wish I had the time to patiently explain it to you, but I don't.
I've been posting less and less on here, as some of the beta posters may have noticed. I'm tired of every discussion on these forums being clogged up because every new person posting resetting it to zero. I'm tired of having to explain every basic little detail. I guess I'm plain tired of trying to get anything across on here, because it is utterly futile and a waste of time. Reading Savant's spamming mindless drivel page after page in every thread is sucking the life out of me, and I've had enough. This will be the last post I write here, outside of my own threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+18001
Most of what you refer to are map issues, and relate in no way specifically to power nodes. Some hives, like containment and sub access, can be directly assaulted without marines ever needing to enter the actual hive room. Should we also remove hives from the game? They clearly contribute nothing.
Its not a map issue, power nodes are stationary... thus no matter where you place them people will complain.
Gonna make mappers moved them every week?
Secondly as you will see I pointed out... The ones that <b>are not</b> complained about are <b>utterly superfluous</b> to game play and meta game because they are never attacked.
Thus proving they are not needed or wanted.
Might as well make phase gates only build-able in set situations like hives if you enjoy that ######.
How many times have you heard aliens say:
"Woo hoo yeah, that totally exposed and easily kill able power node that we just killed makes us badasses and thus that game was epic!"
How many times do marines say:
"Lol, we lost due to a mapper putting power node in a stupid place... Gay Game."
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Vote: <a href="http://goo.gl/mod/oZNx" target="_blank">http://goo.gl/mod/oZNx</a><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
___________________________________________________________________
<b>Remove Powernode game-mechanic</b>, think of different ways to implement lit and unlit areas. (eg areas with alien structures are naturally dimmed, light flicker on attacking marine structures, chamber abilites to power down lights for a short duration)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Vote: <a href="http://goo.gl/mod/47FG" target="_blank">http://goo.gl/mod/47FG</a><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
___________
Feel free to make better suggestions in google moderator comments.
EDIT:
<u>Please post a comment in google moderator, if you disagree... (why?)</u>
So we can either find a solution to the reason why you have to disagree or at least have a interesting discussion to give ppl something more to consider before voting.
If you destroy a power node and hear some marines coming along. Hide in a corner and wait for them to start repairing it. When they have their backs turned take em out!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) the marine team will be happy that you damaged a worthless powernode instead a structure that costs resources. (so they can either recycle and get most res back of other structures around or have a longer time to setup an attack to capture the area back)
b) the marine team will be happy that you are damaging such a high health armor building giving them more time to get to you
c) the marine team knows that you attack a powernode, and will also know that you might be hiding or gone to another place if they get to this position without seeing an alien.
So they can either try to get you into engaging them by starting to weld and abort, they can check the closest hiding positions, they can ask for a scan by the commander. Also the marines will usually have attention by the commander(if they cant afford to lose the power in this area) since he is also aware that something just attacked a building...
Tho not that its a bad tactic... but its usuallly better to attack/destroy anything but powernodes first if you want to do this.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strategy #2)
Take out the powernode to turn the lights off and kill the helpless marines who can't see or any marines that wander into the darkness. This works great if you can take it out from afar as a lerk, then your teammates can rush in and mop up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So while parts of my first answer are also applying here, at least i have numerous ideas how to keep this game mechanic tho remove powernodes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strategy #3)
An obvious one. Take out the powernode to prevent Infanty portals and phasegates from working and any other buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Powernodes have nearly as much health as a commandstation... attacking powernodes get you into a bad position - limited dodging and seeing. (since you are standing in front of a wall looking at it)
So at a phasegate, attacking the weaker phasegate and using it and maybe other buildings or props as cover will be better.
Same is true for base attacks, a commandstation doesnt have that much more health but provides a lot of cover since its big. Also a commandstation potentially 100% game ending, while a powernode is not. (you need a 2nd commandstation to replace it, powernodes can just be rebuilt after a few seconds)
If you had enough time to destroy a powernode, in 99% of the cases you could have also just destroyed the command station in this situation.
And again dont let us forget that a powernode is worth 0 res.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strategy #4)
Get a power node down to where it is almost gone. Wait for some marines to come, 1-shot the power node, then proceed to take out the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again there are numerous things uwe could implement to give a similar expirience /gameplay mechanic to use.
Gonna make mappers moved them every week?
Secondly as you will see I pointed out... The ones that <b>are not</b> complained about are <b>utterly superfluous</b> to game play and meta game because they are never attacked.
Thus proving they are not needed or wanted.
Might as well make phase gates only build-able in set situations like hives if you enjoy that ######.
How many times have you heard aliens say:
"Woo hoo yeah, that totally exposed and easily kill able power node that we just killed makes us badasses and thus that game was epic!"
How many times do marines say:
"Lol, we lost due to a mapper putting power node in a stupid place... Gay Game."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then power nodes are either placed badly by the map maker, in which case they should be rectified, much like the terminal and flight control power node, or they (according to you) have absolutely no influence on gameplay whatsoever and are essentially eye candy and a mechanism for making things dark.
So what exactly is your problem with them? You blatantly state that they aren't affecting your game in the slightest, unless its a fault of the mappers.
Edit: How did a converstation about turning infestation off turn into bickering about powernodes?
Edit: How did a converstation about turning infestation off turn into bickering about powernodes?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People claim that the best way to reduce the performance loss of infestation is to remove the infestation mechanic, along with the power node mechanic, entirely.
In the scenarios you outlined, its unlikely that the marine team lost simply because the aliens decided to hit the power node. I've seen marines with 3 tech point rooms lose in the exact way you just outlined, and then turn around and blame the power node system. Commanders who are unwilling to build extra comm chairs and extra IPs deserve to lose. It was exactly the same when power packs were around. Everyone complained that the power node was so weak and vulnerable, yet they all refused point blank to build backup power packs.
Players seem to despise pre-emptive measures against losing. They are just all or nothing the whole time, except when they get nothing. Then they want it changed.
In the scenarios you outlined, its unlikely that the marine team lost simply because the aliens decided to hit the power node. I've seen marines with 3 tech point rooms lose in the exact way you just outlined, and then turn around and blame the power node system. Commanders who are unwilling to build extra comm chairs and extra IPs deserve to lose. It was exactly the same when power packs were around. Everyone complained that the power node was so weak and vulnerable, yet they all refused point blank to build backup power packs.
Players seem to despise pre-emptive measures against losing. They are just all or nothing the whole time, except when they get nothing. Then they want it changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but if it's been a tough fight the entire game, you might not have the resources available for backups. A 2nd CC is probably going to be around for exo's and jp's, but they might not have IP's there.
I would prefer if my power idea got tried instead. It makes every power node relevant in both building and destroying. There are a lot of power nodes I've never seen built except when they get placed because the commander dropped a node in a tech point room and the other node also got placed (it seems to drop nodes in a radius around the one drop) and the auto "go build this' pops up for someone who is compelled to build every structure. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126310" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=126310</a>