<!--quoteo(post=2058890:date=Jan 10 2013, 11:45 AM:name=xeNonny)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xeNonny @ Jan 10 2013, 11:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I was dumb and installed a mod that gave me a DISADVANTAGE. It was something called Organic Alien Infestation or something. Made all the infestation black and skulks black too so I couldn't clearly see the aliens whilst on infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol I got this mod too, looks decent though
<!--quoteo(post=2059704:date=Jan 13 2013, 02:37 AM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 13 2013, 02:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what about sensitivity? are you planning on locking everyone's sensitivity to the same value? that's where the hardware aspect comes in - because many players simply have mice that can alter DPI. I am saying that it is impossible to regulate the hardware aspect of it, and those are much more worrying than a change to your HUD or crosshair. I don't think very many would disagree that having a top of the line processor makes most of the difference for NS2 playability right now.
a dot crosshair is not an advantage unless
- crosshairs are restricted and no one else has that capability (to use a dot crosshair) - the developers intend for crosshairs to obscure your vision
that's like saying the pistol's dot crosshair has an advantage over a simple cross. it's simply personal preference. which is exactly why you allow players to change it.
player configs have been popular for ages, with each player liking to tune their own custom settings to their own <i>preference</i>. <a href="http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=1923955" target="_blank">http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=1923955</a> if you download toxjq's config, you will have an advantage over using rapha's config, based on the crosshairs and HUD that they use?
obviously I'm not in favor of anything that is a straight texture or model change (at least not on default server settings), but restricting HUD and crosshair functionality is simply unheard of and quite unreasonable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hud and x-hair restrictions are not unheard of, look at the battlefield hardcore servers (cheating in bf series aside).
A x-hair change to a dot is an advantage especially in an exo, whilst its seen as being minor and somewhat accepted. If the game was meant to allow for different x-hairs they would have put them in (not exactly the hardest part of a whole new engine), they didn't so if your wanting to play "vanilla" it would be seen as an advantages change.
The solution is to have a hard checked server (aka vanilla) that allows for 0 modification outside of inbuilt mechanisms (ie setup panel options) for those who would like to know they are playing on as level a playing field as possible. You can then have a normal mode (which say allows for hud changes similar to current) and a comp mode (files either accepted and/or banned can be added to a list). the type of server would need to show up in the server browser though so people can chose to avoid/find.
That way those who would like to know they dont glow in the dark or that the exo has better vision (ie no hud and a simple dot) can avoid anything but vanilla servers.
No one wants to take away you ability to use a mode, but people may not want to play with them (similar to you this is their choice) but are forced to play against them. We need to recognise that it is annoying to the more casual gamer who is playing for fun and does not set about finding every way he can modify the game to give him an advantage....after all the reason you prefer the dot x-hair is that you feel you shoot better or easier. Either way you do it because you feel it helps in some way.
One possible way to design a system to check for allowed mods without slowing the loading too much is to do it outside of the server. The client checks your mod files when you start up and determines whether you are good to join a pure server or not, then the server only checks the client checklist routine to make sure there's no funny business modifying your own accepted list. Longer initial startup time but joining a server should be a negligible change.
Mods can be individually whitelisted by the devs so that they pass the pure check. Granted this can take a lot of dev time but it is a sound option.
Most players do NOT use mods. At all. Yes, many "hardcore" players, especially those who have spent enough time caring about the game to come to the forums here use them, but in the actual playerbase the number of heavy mod users among the more casual players is probably more comparable to the number of actual cheaters.
Great OP post. I knew certain mods was a huge was a huge advantage for these cheaters. Yes, I consider them cheaters when they use these mods and have a kill streak of 30+ kills with little to no deaths. And, they act like they are pro players when in fact they use certain mods to play better. UWE really needs to investigate this issue I notice the guys who play close to perfect games always go marines and hardly ever go aliens. A few bad apples who abuse mods can ruin a whole game. It only takes 2 marines who abuse mods to win the game. UWE instead of nerfing and balancing aliens and marines please consider in the abuse of mods. It is a game killer and should be looked at now.
<!--quoteo(post=2059929:date=Jan 12 2013, 06:27 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 12 2013, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hud and x-hair restrictions are not unheard of, look at the battlefield hardcore servers (cheating in bf series aside).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe you misread me - I didn't say it was not common. I am saying the opposite: that they are quite common in every other multiplayer FPS.
<!--quoteo(post=2059929:date=Jan 12 2013, 06:27 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 12 2013, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A x-hair change to a dot is an advantage especially in an exo, whilst its seen as being minor and somewhat accepted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I acknowledged that it is an advantage for the exo, simply because the default crosshairs and indeed the entire HUD both obscure a lot of vision
as I already pointed out, it seems to be an aesthetic choice rather than a gameplay choice. I would prefer for the default ones to be fixed up so that they are not as obtrusive so using custom crosshairs would not be seen as an advantage but merely preference. the same goes for the motion tracking circles.
<!--quoteo(post=2059929:date=Jan 12 2013, 06:27 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 12 2013, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the game was meant to allow for different x-hairs they would have put them in (not exactly the hardest part of a whole new engine), they didn't so if your wanting to play "vanilla" it would be seen as an advantages change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the ability to change crosshairs has been available on most servers for ages, so I'm not sure if we are playing the same game.
<!--quoteo(post=2059967:date=Jan 13 2013, 02:47 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 13 2013, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe you misread me - I didn't say it was not common. I am saying the opposite: that they are quite common in every other multiplayer FPS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah I must have gotten another post mixed up. Restrictions on x-hairs is very common in other FPS's
<!--quoteo(post=2059967:date=Jan 13 2013, 02:47 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 13 2013, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I acknowledged that it is an advantage for the exo, simply because the default crosshairs and indeed the entire HUD both obscure a lot of vision
as I already pointed out, it seems to be an aesthetic choice rather than a gameplay choice. I would prefer for the default ones to be fixed up so that they are not as obtrusive so using custom crosshairs would not be seen as an advantage but merely preference. the same goes for the motion tracking circles.
the ability to change crosshairs has been available on most servers for ages, so I'm not sure if we are playing the same game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Replacing a file/sprite or installing a mod is not the same thing as having a changeable x-hair being built into the game. Not everyone wants to go and download or modify a game to play it...some are happy playing with what the designers wanted (then whine and moan on forums ;)) and consider that as there is no selectable cross hair options then thats what your stuck with.
Given the Exo needs some draw backs I think the x-hair needs to stay, I mean if you remove the skulks mouth it sure would make playing skulk a lot easier....it serves no purpose but "aesthetic" so we should be able to change that too right? Well if you can change your hud as marine why cant aliens and those damn teeth block my view all the time....make aiming no easier etc etc.
The problem is some people out there dont want to play a modded game or play against people who have modified their game (which may or may not provide advantage), we should be encouraging USE to find a way to facilitate these people choice. Will save a lot of griefing, maybe as they learn to play and get better, they will start wanting to mod their game and will move onto the "non-vanilla" servers. It would result in more people playing/buying the game and playing it for longer. Might go a long way to helping rookie servers if they forced vanilla everything.
Should we regulate sensitivity too? What about brightness? High brightness gives a disadvantage to alien players. How about a regulation setting brightness and sensitivity to make sure players aren't cheating by changing those out of game.
What about graphics settings. Low infestation actually provides an advantage to marines. Should we regulate that to high or low? You think I'm trolling but the way you people are talking I'm scared it'll come to the above. I'm fine with competitive gaming servers having Orwellian restrictions but that's because prestige and (sometimes) money is on the line. Besides, it'd be a shame for the workshop if people created several interesting mods only for the majority of servers to ban them simply because they're mods.
Although, the game really is in it's infancy. If rampant widespread mod cheating became a problem like in Guild Wars 2, I wouldn't be opposed to it. But if that happened, then UWE wouldn't be UWE.
Also: When you guys are talking about "someone" who is cheating in game, how do you know? In 100% seriousness, is there a way to check what mods a user is using or are you guessing based on gameplay with them?
If custom crosshairs are an advantage or not is irrelevant, relying on the player having a bad or no crosshair is a bad design. If exo is overpowered with a custom crosshair then the problem is with the minigun not having enough spread, not because someone has a static dot in the middle of their screen. It isn't though.
<!--quoteo(post=2059979:date=Jan 13 2013, 04:46 PM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 13 2013, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Should we regulate sensitivity too? What about brightness? High brightness gives a disadvantage to alien players. How about a regulation setting brightness and sensitivity to make sure players aren't cheating by changing those out of game.
What about graphics settings. Low infestation actually provides an advantage to marines. Should we regulate that to high or low? You think I'm trolling but the way you people are talking I'm scared it'll come to the above. I'm fine with competitive gaming servers having Orwellian restrictions but that's because prestige and (sometimes) money is on the line. Besides, it'd be a shame for the workshop if people created several interesting mods only for the majority of servers to ban them simply because they're mods.
Although, the game really is in it's infancy. If rampant widespread mod cheating became a problem like in Guild Wars 2, I wouldn't be opposed to it. But if that happened, then UWE wouldn't be UWE.
Also: When you guys are talking about "someone" who is cheating in game, how do you know? In 100% seriousness, is there a way to check what mods a user is using or are you guessing based on gameplay with them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well no they are all able to be changed from the ingame control panel and this is seen as something everyone sets/changes (like key bindings).
If crosshairs where options in there then by all mean change the one that comes default, but as it doesn't have this and you have to accept your modding and the game is no longer technically vanilla.
We all talk about not wanting to kill the modding community...well what about the new player or casual gamer element? These are the people who keep the game alive by injecting new blood, by ignoring them and allowing mod'd models and the likes we create a very hostile environment for them.
<!--quoteo(post=2059994:date=Jan 13 2013, 11:30 AM:name=lwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lwf @ Jan 13 2013, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If custom crosshairs are an advantage or not is irrelevant, relying on the player having a bad or no crosshair is a bad design. If exo is overpowered with a custom crosshair then the problem is with the minigun not having enough spread, not because someone has a static dot in the middle of their screen. It isn't though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2059994:date=Jan 13 2013, 10:30 AM:name=lwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lwf @ Jan 13 2013, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If custom crosshairs are an advantage or not is irrelevant, relying on the player having a bad or no crosshair is a bad design. If exo is overpowered with a custom crosshair then the problem is with the minigun not having enough spread, not because someone has a static dot in the middle of their screen. It isn't though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont see the design flaw here. Take BF3 where your FOV is considerably obstructed in Heli/Jet and somewhat drastically altered in Tanks. The resason being that a Jet/Heli is balanced by making it hard to spot infantry which goes hand-in-hand with game design as a jet/Heli should fight other jets/helis and tanks. Of course they can be quite effective agaisnt infantry but to do so youll require more skill.
Same applies for Exos. They are mainly meant to provide the heavy fire against all kinds of buildings and Onos. Against these the HUD is irrelevant because these things a big and dont move. On the other Hand a unit with enough DPS to basically kill anything except onos within 1 second is awesome against skulks, lerks, fades and gorges aswell even if this is not the main gameplay purpose of the unit. So to negate some of this not wanted effectiveness the HUD is set up in a fashion to make it harder to shoot at small/fast moving targets.
So actually having a dot/whatever crosshair in Exo should be considered as cheating in the sense of unfair advantage.
As for the ppl asking if graphic settings/Mouse DPI should also be restricted:
Mosue DPI: This is ridiculous because it's like saying that 100m sprinters are only allowed steps with a certain length. Changing Mouse DPI gives no unfair advantage because everyone can set it to the value that is ideal for them
Grahpics: I don't really understand this, because graphic settings are CONSIDERABLY limited already. Why do you think you cant adjust gamma? Why do you think there is no console command to make all Aliens neon green? Why do you think you cant replace all level textures with one-colored ones?
I guess the developers didn't want these things to be changed despite at least some of them even could boost game performance. This means that they think the available options are acceptable in terms of the benefits players with low settings might achieve over people with high details,infestation etc.
So obviously they think gamma should be same for all people which again makes tweaking gamma in driver configs a cheat in the sense of unfair advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=2059999:date=Jan 13 2013, 01:45 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 13 2013, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well no they are all able to be changed from the ingame control panel and this is seen as something everyone sets/changes (like key bindings).
If crosshairs where options in there then by all mean change the one that comes default, but as it doesn't have this and you have to accept your modding and the game is no longer technically vanilla.
We all talk about not wanting to kill the modding community...well what about the new player or casual gamer element? These are the people who keep the game alive by injecting new blood, by ignoring them and allowing mod'd models and the likes we create a very hostile environment for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough. I just hope we remember that on our mod witch hunt.
Regarding new/casual gamers:
Well, in truth the new/casual gamer element lives or dies on the community. Having someone with unfair mods is no different than having someone who's a really good aimer in the sense he can turn important battles. Does this person help the community and make it a better place or make it worse? The fact that there are mods out there is less important than the fact people use them. Odds are, if the person is using these mods, he knows it's not in the spirit of the game but he uses it anyways. (it's the equivalent of changing an "invisible" model to be bright orange. Most people can tell it's supposed to give you an advantage)
Which means all he cares about is k/d. <u>In any case (with mod/without mod) he'd be a detriment to the community due to his elitest must-win attitude and would affect new players the same.</u> What if (and this has been discussed to death in another thread) it wasn't a mod but just that he was good at aiming/situational aware and killed the enemy team a lot? Are you going to ban his steam ID because he's too good on a regular server?
Besides, That really doesn't matter for new players. There's always going to be "the ace" that joins the enemy team and owns your own. What keeps players playing, however, are friends and community. People they enjoy playing with, who talk to them and teach them on voice chat and even though they lose it was a fun game. Playing a game with no one talking is just boring and eerie.
Unfortunately, making a friendly and accommodating community is harder than just banning all mods on public servers. >.>
This may be true but it certainly does not help if you have the uber-skill players AND unfair mods.
Also: Even a uber-skill player without mods/increased gamma wont see the skulk in the pitch-dark after a power node died and can be killed then.
The player with the uber-gamma spots enemies in dark corners/good hiding spots instantly and kills them. To new players this very much looks like a cheat(they really cant explain why they could be seen there) and we all know there is nothing more annoying and disheartening in online games as cheating enemies.
<!--quoteo(post=2060013:date=Jan 13 2013, 02:40 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Jan 13 2013, 02:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This may be true but it certainly does not help if you have the uber-skill players AND unfair mods.
Also: Even a uber-skill player without mods/increased gamma wont see the skulk in the pitch-dark after a power node died and can be killed then.
The player with the uber-gamma spots enemies in dark corners/good hiding spots instantly and kills them. To new players this very much looks like a cheat(they really cant explain why they could be seen there) and we all know there is nothing more annoying and disheartening in online games as cheating enemies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough. Although EVERYONE thinks someone is cheating. I'm pretty sure most people have thought someone somewhere has cheated against them in NS2 whether it's true or not. Exos have died to two skilled skulks. I've seen a marine kill an Onos one on one. Also, I've killed two skulks in close combat after power was cut off by blind luck and wild spraying. It happens.
Personally, I enjoy being able to see my violet cross hairs instead of the thin tiny white ones that blends into the background too much because my eyes are weak and UWE can't be arsed to make better ones.
<u>Back on topic... like I said, it's fine if we have official competitive servers that disable all mods.</u> But if that becomes the norm where the vast majority of servers ban mods, we might as well ban ALL mods since they'll essentially never be used because most servers don't support them and users won't even see them in use due to that. That's the teeter-totter issue we have.
I'm starting to look at this situation differently. UWE have regularly put art schemes ahead of gameplay freedom in their design decisions and have managed to create a game that is almost intolerable to any serious player without modifications to HUDs etc. There has been tacit (and sometimes overt) endorsement of mods since the beta started and the default consistency check is a bit of a joke.
Mods can definitely give you an advantage, I just don't think UWE care <i>that</i> much.
<!--quoteo(post=2060016:date=Jan 13 2013, 10:54 AM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 13 2013, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Back on topic... like I said, it's fine if we have official competitive servers that disable all mods.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is pretty much the worst-case scenario (would be for me, at least) because default NS2 is so obnoxiously "immersive", unfortunately.
<!--quoteo(post=2060016:date=Jan 13 2013, 11:54 AM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 13 2013, 11:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Back on topic... like I said, it's fine if we have official competitive servers that disable all mods.</u> But if that becomes the norm where the vast majority of servers ban mods, we might as well ban ALL mods since they'll essentially never be used because most servers don't support them and users won't even see them in use due to that. That's the teeter-totter issue we have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree and think the only valid solution would a a white-list. If server admins could add mods to the advanced consistency checking, things like gorge-healspray hearts could be allowed. Admins could also get a simple mod-request script where a player could just write "!admin !request gorge healspray heart mod plz plz plz"
Also people probably would create packs with commonly accepted mods so admins can simply add them to consitency checking.
This way both the people enjoying harmless mods as well as people not even knowing that there are mods would not be negatively affected.
<!--quoteo(post=2060010:date=Jan 13 2013, 08:34 PM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 13 2013, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True enough. I just hope we remember that on our mod witch hunt.
Regarding new/casual gamers:
Well, in truth the new/casual gamer element lives or dies on the community. Having someone with unfair mods is no different than having someone who's a really good aimer in the sense he can turn important battles. Does this person help the community and make it a better place or make it worse? The fact that there are mods out there is less important than the fact people use them. Odds are, if the person is using these mods, he knows it's not in the spirit of the game but he uses it anyways. (it's the equivalent of changing an "invisible" model to be bright orange. Most people can tell it's supposed to give you an advantage)
Which means all he cares about is k/d. <u>In any case (with mod/without mod) he'd be a detriment to the community due to his elitest must-win attitude and would affect new players the same.</u> What if (and this has been discussed to death in another thread) it wasn't a mod but just that he was good at aiming/situational aware and killed the enemy team a lot? Are you going to ban his steam ID because he's too good on a regular server?
Besides, That really doesn't matter for new players. There's always going to be "the ace" that joins the enemy team and owns your own. What keeps players playing, however, are friends and community. People they enjoy playing with, who talk to them and teach them on voice chat and even though they lose it was a fun game. Playing a game with no one talking is just boring and eerie.
Unfortunately, making a friendly and accommodating community is harder than just banning all mods on public servers. >.><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not a mod witch hunt, its more a request for servers which are vanilla, another that has limited variable (ie x-hairs) and a comp setting (customizable).
This allows those who dont want to play against a mod'd config somewhere to play and vice versa for those who want to play with mods.
The servers currently can add mods to a white list even if they dont allow other mods, so to say the mod community would die is wrong.
I just hope we see some more and better checks and a vanilla server mode, will keep both parties happy.
<!--quoteo(post=2060009:date=Jan 13 2013, 05:32 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Jan 13 2013, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont see the design flaw here. Take BF3 where your FOV is considerably obstructed in Heli/Jet and somewhat drastically altered in Tanks. The resason being that a Jet/Heli is balanced by making it hard to spot infantry which goes hand-in-hand with game design as a jet/Heli should fight other jets/helis and tanks. Of course they can be quite effective agaisnt infantry but to do so youll require more skill.
Same applies for Exos. They are mainly meant to provide the heavy fire against all kinds of buildings and Onos. Against these the HUD is irrelevant because these things a big and dont move. On the other Hand a unit with enough DPS to basically kill anything except onos within 1 second is awesome against skulks, lerks, fades and gorges aswell even if this is not the main gameplay purpose of the unit. So to negate some of this not wanted effectiveness the HUD is set up in a fashion to make it harder to shoot at small/fast moving targets.
So actually having a dot/whatever crosshair in Exo should be considered as cheating in the sense of unfair advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with the argument that you've presented (better than anyone else). I would make a distinction between HUD elements that are designed to obscure your vision for balance reasons (heli in BF3, the 'suit' part of the exosuit) and the crosshair, which I contest is designed to assist your aiming. Changing the first would be cheating because it is designed to be a detriment. I don't think UWE intended crosshairs to be a vision obscuring mechanic. I think they frequently get caught up in making something look cool without fully considering how annoying some people may find it. Instead, I think it is there to assist your aim. I find that acceptable to change.
It's all about intent and design of the HUD item to determine if it is cheating to change it. For example; I wouldn't consider removing the minimap from the marine's HUD as cheating because you're simply removing something designed to assist you. However, adding a minimap to the alien HUD would absolutely be cheating because the game doesn't include it by default. Likewise, removing the health bar of the hive/cc in the room you are in wouldn't be cheating in my eyes. Adding a health bar of the ip or RT would be.
Changing models, sound, fx, etc can clearly be considered cheating. I have no issue with the various cool-looking mods (cute gorge eyes, orange phasegates, etc), but I would rather lose those than have people playing with neon green skulks.
And to the people whoa are saying things like if UWE wanted such and such they would have included it in the game... seriously? Think of the things they have spoken about wanting to include that aren't there and how rushed the game was on official release.
<!--quoteo(post=2060122:date=Jan 13 2013, 06:37 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 13 2013, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree with the argument that you've presented (better than anyone else). I would make a distinction between HUD elements that are designed to obscure your vision for balance reasons (heli in BF3, the 'suit' part of the exosuit) and the crosshair, which I contest is designed to assist your aiming. Changing the first would be cheating because it is designed to be a detriment. I don't think UWE intended crosshairs to be a vision obscuring mechanic. I think they frequently get caught up in making something look cool without fully considering how annoying some people may find it. Instead, I think it is there to assist your aim. I find that acceptable to change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that's mostly speculation really and ike I said before, crosshairs in my opinion are right on the line so I don't really want to commit here. BUT what I was thinking when I wrote this post was the following: If your an inside the EXO suit and there's a skulk peeking around a corner at least I often times miss my first shots because they are too low/high and therefor the skulk gets away. I'm quite sure I'd have considerably gigher chances of hitting him if I had a crosshair. Same is true for lerks. As long as they hover up and down it is really hard to hit them with the exo suit because you never exactly know how high you are really aiming.
So maybe this is indeed not intended by UWE or maybe it's just a side effect of the art design. Personally I like to think it's at least in parts a "feature" so I don't like people to have actual crosshairs in Exos tbh.
<!--quoteo(post=2060124:date=Jan 13 2013, 06:59 PM:name=BentRing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BentRing @ Jan 13 2013, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to the people whoa are saying things like if UWE wanted such and such they would have included it in the game... seriously? Think of the things they have spoken about wanting to include that aren't there and how rushed the game was on official release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A gamma slider really is nothing very complicated. actually it's one of the few things every crappy Xbox/Playstation port has despite not having any other video options. Together with the fact that this is a game where skulks actually are intended to ambush and hide it's not that much of a stretch to assume that gamma is not adjustable for a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=2060124:date=Jan 14 2013, 03:59 AM:name=BentRing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BentRing @ Jan 14 2013, 03:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well put GORGEous.
And to the people whoa are saying things like if UWE wanted such and such they would have included it in the game... seriously? Think of the things they have spoken about wanting to include that aren't there and how rushed the game was on official release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but been through this whole discussion with HL mods, alternative x-hairs are not something that UWE would have left out if they had wanted them in. After all we have atleast 4 different ones on different weapons so clearly they know how to have more than 1 in the game. The x-hair of the exo is large and obnoxious by design...its was not accidentally made much larger than the other x-hairs.
You want to play on with a modded game then play on modded servers thats your decision, but dont force people who want to play on/against vanillas servers/players to play against people who are modded. The solution is simple, have a vanilla server mode...if so many people play with mods and want to play with mods then these vanilla servers will be empty (I doubt this) and 2 other modes as I have outlined above. This way you and your mates can all play with your hello kitty LMG's....but you dont force your choice on others. Sure they can join yuor modded servers...but that a choice they have.
<!--quoteo(post=2060122:date=Jan 13 2013, 05:37 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 13 2013, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's all about intent and design of the HUD item to determine if it is cheating to change it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with your whole post. The problem is that the 'intent' behind most decisions always feels ill-thought out, with a premium on "cool" and a discount on "useful". If I had faith in UWE to put one before the other, I would have no qualms with that methodology. However, do you really believe that the overblown hud and scan-lines for the exo was a deliberate design decision? Is the unfathomably bloated gorge perspective the product of anything beyond its aesthetics? Personally, I wouldn't bet on it.
First, thank you for those awesome answers! Everyone brings powerful point and you are to justify them. Some of you made great resume of what's going on. Yesterday I found something interesting on Twitch, here a short Story.
SSF4 = Super Street Fighter 4
Set = it is won by the player which win 2 round in a fight.
(8:36) = it is the time stamp in the video.
Video Link :
It was the rebroadcast of the SSF4 AE2012 Grand Finals. Personally I don't play Super Street Fighter 4, but I can enjoy a live stream about it, particularly when the level of competition is so high. So, what we have here is during the match you can see how much a slightly visual advantage can change the outcome of a fight. To me it proves that even a crosshair change can be consider as an unfair visual advantage while other people play without the same crosshair. Things like mouse sensibility isn't visual, it is preference, but someone playing with all low resolution for running intense fight at 100 FPS is a visual advantage to me.
Game Resume : if you are too lazy to watch a 43 min fight ^.^
For the first 2 sets, Justin Wong (known for is Rufus play) as try to counter pick SnakeEye (Zangief) with the character: Adon. He did terrible and Zangief won those 2 set. Fear of losing for the next set it came back to is main character which is Rufus (8:36). Here comes the tricky part. Rufus should be a terrible pick againts Zangief which it is not the case as you can see for the next 4 set. By turteling and waiting for the time out while keeping the HP lead he manage to sneak out 4 set in a row (24:20). Taking the lead, SnakeEye had to break the momentum of Justin Wong. At 25:45 instead of changing his character he changes the ring. I won’t spoil you the end of the match, but he was a God da"/! Epic fight.
So, what I see here is two characters played at full potential in two different rings. The first ring is cover with perfect square making easier for bot player to gage the distance of their attack/enemy attack. This revealed to be a Visual advantage in a fighting game. It even permits to Justin Wong to win 4 sets in a row. Some of you can see simply a momentum break, but the fact is after the ring change Justin Wong has begun to make mistakes at gaging the distance between bot characters. In the first ring he perfectly manage to counter every single attack of its opponent, by a perfect reading of his distances allowed by the ring he was able to protect his HP lead by stepping in and out of his opponent range. This was a tournament and in that case the ring was allowed because it serve bot player. I may go too far, you can say that I'm a crazy man ^.^ don't worry I'm used to it.
Here the problems with Natural Selection. You don't want to remove modding, it will denature the game. Doing nothing is worst because you are losing lots of player due to those mods. They feel abuse once they know that there is possibility for marines to use a visual advantage during the match and they didn't know it. Some night I can't find a server to play and it is truly frustrating when you have 10 marines rushing the marine team every single game and they shoots straight at your Lerk hiding in the roof when they enter Warehouse. I used to play in green server because it is one of the only places that I can practice my skulk. The number of modders are really low on those server so I just manage to go somewhere else in the map when I thing someone is using a mod. (I use some of them myself, but in the alien team mods aren't so unfair but they still a visual advantage)
For finding solutions, I don't think it is "fixable". If you create vanilla mod for your server, you'll create a need of Dev, extra loading and all the cons that you have listed. I'm sorry I'm lazy ^.^ I won't quote everyone. But if you remove modding you'll denature the game. I keep playing because I began to see it almost like a progression ingredients. When a player needs to boost is performance he go check for mods, so he using "Science" which is a Marine thing indeed. I just hope we can get "better" mod for alien; I should make a mod which it let me see the X-ray of the marine's gun or amplifying their foot step sound. The goal will be to give the same "unfair" advantage to the Alien team
By allowing mod in the design and balance itself it create an issue which is for the moment mods give a greater advantage to one particular team and not bot team. It is easier to design a mod for marine which gives you the advantage on alien than creating a mod for alien which give an advantage on marines. I Hope the Dev will be able to find a solution for everyone. I would like to play in a vanilla server even if I lose my awesome crosshair I just want to be sure to be part of a fair fight because Natural Selection 2 is a fun game!
I see what you are getting at but I think using pro level SSF4AE is not really a good comparison and especially the round at 24:45. While he did change the stage and that does shake things up the bigger change which you didn't mention was snakeeyes switching to Ultra 2 on Zangief. It was already a tough match for Rufus and U2 zones him out of the air and sets up a lot of failed pokes for an ultra punish. That was the bigger shift of momentum and not the stage change. Even if it was, a stage change is completely in line with tournament rules.
If you are concerned about mods giving someone an advantage you will want to play on a vanilla server that is running the extended consistency check mods. This will add models, shaders and bunch of other limitations to modding. Custom crosshairs are generally accepted as fine, many other competitive games have this built right into the game (CS has some limited crosshair tweaking, UT2k4 has it, CS:GO etc). See: http://www.ensl.org/articles/714 rule 10 for how the NSL handles it. Really this comes down to just picking the right server for the kind of play you want. Community hosted servers and modding adds a lot of longevity and flexibility to the game and I don't want to lose that.
you can "cheat" outside the game with color/display settings and UWE can't do anything about it
if a game has no crosshairs... you can physically attach one to your monitor
that is why a competitive game needs full brightskins or full camo and actual UI customization, not this half-way stuff that allows cheating and rewards whose configuration of eyes / display allows them to perceive minor differences in color
I don't want to play with/against people who use neon textures/models, so I like ensl gathers and the hbz server. I don't mind the extra load time, it's entirely worthwhile in my view.
I would love a name and shame policy, but I can't see any way this can be done in practice without missing some cheaters, and those determined ones are the ones I would really want to be named and shamed!
Comments
lol I got this mod too, looks decent though
a dot crosshair is not an advantage unless
- crosshairs are restricted and no one else has that capability (to use a dot crosshair)
- the developers intend for crosshairs to obscure your vision
that's like saying the pistol's dot crosshair has an advantage over a simple cross. it's simply personal preference. which is exactly why you allow players to change it.
player configs have been popular for ages, with each player liking to tune their own custom settings to their own <i>preference</i>.
<a href="http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=1923955" target="_blank">http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=1923955</a>
if you download toxjq's config, you will have an advantage over using rapha's config, based on the crosshairs and HUD that they use?
obviously I'm not in favor of anything that is a straight texture or model change (at least not on default server settings), but restricting HUD and crosshair functionality is simply unheard of and quite unreasonable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hud and x-hair restrictions are not unheard of, look at the battlefield hardcore servers (cheating in bf series aside).
A x-hair change to a dot is an advantage especially in an exo, whilst its seen as being minor and somewhat accepted.
If the game was meant to allow for different x-hairs they would have put them in (not exactly the hardest part of a whole new engine), they didn't so if your wanting to play "vanilla" it would be seen as an advantages change.
The solution is to have a hard checked server (aka vanilla) that allows for 0 modification outside of inbuilt mechanisms (ie setup panel options) for those who would like to know they are playing on as level a playing field as possible.
You can then have a normal mode (which say allows for hud changes similar to current) and a comp mode (files either accepted and/or banned can be added to a list). the type of server would need to show up in the server browser though so people can chose to avoid/find.
That way those who would like to know they dont glow in the dark or that the exo has better vision (ie no hud and a simple dot) can avoid anything but vanilla servers.
No one wants to take away you ability to use a mode, but people may not want to play with them (similar to you this is their choice) but are forced to play against them.
We need to recognise that it is annoying to the more casual gamer who is playing for fun and does not set about finding every way he can modify the game to give him an advantage....after all the reason you prefer the dot x-hair is that you feel you shoot better or easier. Either way you do it because you feel it helps in some way.
Mods can be individually whitelisted by the devs so that they pass the pure check. Granted this can take a lot of dev time but it is a sound option.
Most players do NOT use mods. At all. Yes, many "hardcore" players, especially those who have spent enough time caring about the game to come to the forums here use them, but in the actual playerbase the number of heavy mod users among the more casual players is probably more comparable to the number of actual cheaters.
I believe you misread me - I didn't say it was not common. I am saying the opposite: that they are quite common in every other multiplayer FPS.
<!--quoteo(post=2059929:date=Jan 12 2013, 06:27 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 12 2013, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A x-hair change to a dot is an advantage especially in an exo, whilst its seen as being minor and somewhat accepted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I acknowledged that it is an advantage for the exo, simply because the default crosshairs and indeed the entire HUD both obscure a lot of vision
as I already pointed out, it seems to be an aesthetic choice rather than a gameplay choice. I would prefer for the default ones to be fixed up so that they are not as obtrusive so using custom crosshairs would not be seen as an advantage but merely preference. the same goes for the motion tracking circles.
<!--quoteo(post=2059929:date=Jan 12 2013, 06:27 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 12 2013, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the game was meant to allow for different x-hairs they would have put them in (not exactly the hardest part of a whole new engine), they didn't so if your wanting to play "vanilla" it would be seen as an advantages change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the ability to change crosshairs has been available on most servers for ages, so I'm not sure if we are playing the same game.
Yeah I must have gotten another post mixed up.
Restrictions on x-hairs is very common in other FPS's
<!--quoteo(post=2059967:date=Jan 13 2013, 02:47 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 13 2013, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I acknowledged that it is an advantage for the exo, simply because the default crosshairs and indeed the entire HUD both obscure a lot of vision
as I already pointed out, it seems to be an aesthetic choice rather than a gameplay choice. I would prefer for the default ones to be fixed up so that they are not as obtrusive so using custom crosshairs would not be seen as an advantage but merely preference. the same goes for the motion tracking circles.
the ability to change crosshairs has been available on most servers for ages, so I'm not sure if we are playing the same game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Replacing a file/sprite or installing a mod is not the same thing as having a changeable x-hair being built into the game.
Not everyone wants to go and download or modify a game to play it...some are happy playing with what the designers wanted (then whine and moan on forums ;)) and consider that as there is no selectable cross hair options then thats what your stuck with.
Given the Exo needs some draw backs I think the x-hair needs to stay, I mean if you remove the skulks mouth it sure would make playing skulk a lot easier....it serves no purpose but "aesthetic" so we should be able to change that too right?
Well if you can change your hud as marine why cant aliens and those damn teeth block my view all the time....make aiming no easier etc etc.
The problem is some people out there dont want to play a modded game or play against people who have modified their game (which may or may not provide advantage), we should be encouraging USE to find a way to facilitate these people choice.
Will save a lot of griefing, maybe as they learn to play and get better, they will start wanting to mod their game and will move onto the "non-vanilla" servers.
It would result in more people playing/buying the game and playing it for longer. Might go a long way to helping rookie servers if they forced vanilla everything.
I havent played in 4 days, tried a game today. Same guy in NZ server ruining game. Not hacking, just cheating. Always marines.
Strange how such a good product comes with no 'Warranty void if removed' sticker.
What about graphics settings. Low infestation actually provides an advantage to marines. Should we regulate that to high or low? You think I'm trolling but the way you people are talking I'm scared it'll come to the above. I'm fine with competitive gaming servers having Orwellian restrictions but that's because prestige and (sometimes) money is on the line. Besides, it'd be a shame for the workshop if people created several interesting mods only for the majority of servers to ban them simply because they're mods.
Although, the game really is in it's infancy. If rampant widespread mod cheating became a problem like in Guild Wars 2, I wouldn't be opposed to it. But if that happened, then UWE wouldn't be UWE.
Also: When you guys are talking about "someone" who is cheating in game, how do you know? In 100% seriousness, is there a way to check what mods a user is using or are you guessing based on gameplay with them?
What about graphics settings. Low infestation actually provides an advantage to marines. Should we regulate that to high or low? You think I'm trolling but the way you people are talking I'm scared it'll come to the above. I'm fine with competitive gaming servers having Orwellian restrictions but that's because prestige and (sometimes) money is on the line. Besides, it'd be a shame for the workshop if people created several interesting mods only for the majority of servers to ban them simply because they're mods.
Although, the game really is in it's infancy. If rampant widespread mod cheating became a problem like in Guild Wars 2, I wouldn't be opposed to it. But if that happened, then UWE wouldn't be UWE.
Also: When you guys are talking about "someone" who is cheating in game, how do you know? In 100% seriousness, is there a way to check what mods a user is using or are you guessing based on gameplay with them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well no they are all able to be changed from the ingame control panel and this is seen as something everyone sets/changes (like key bindings).
If crosshairs where options in there then by all mean change the one that comes default, but as it doesn't have this and you have to accept your modding and the game is no longer technically vanilla.
We all talk about not wanting to kill the modding community...well what about the new player or casual gamer element?
These are the people who keep the game alive by injecting new blood, by ignoring them and allowing mod'd models and the likes we create a very hostile environment for them.
I agree with this.
I dont see the design flaw here. Take BF3 where your FOV is considerably obstructed in Heli/Jet and somewhat drastically altered in Tanks. The resason being that a Jet/Heli is balanced by making it hard to spot infantry which goes hand-in-hand with game design as a jet/Heli should fight other jets/helis and tanks. Of course they can be quite effective agaisnt infantry but to do so youll require more skill.
Same applies for Exos. They are mainly meant to provide the heavy fire against all kinds of buildings and Onos. Against these the HUD is irrelevant because these things a big and dont move.
On the other Hand a unit with enough DPS to basically kill anything except onos within 1 second is awesome against skulks, lerks, fades and gorges aswell even if this is not the main gameplay purpose of the unit. So to negate some of this not wanted effectiveness the HUD is set up in a fashion to make it harder to shoot at small/fast moving targets.
So actually having a dot/whatever crosshair in Exo should be considered as cheating in the sense of unfair advantage.
As for the ppl asking if graphic settings/Mouse DPI should also be restricted:
Mosue DPI: This is ridiculous because it's like saying that 100m sprinters are only allowed steps with a certain length. Changing Mouse DPI gives no unfair advantage because everyone can set it to the value that is ideal for them
Grahpics: I don't really understand this, because graphic settings are CONSIDERABLY limited already. Why do you think you cant adjust gamma? Why do you think there is no console command to make all Aliens neon green? Why do you think you cant replace all level textures with one-colored ones?
I guess the developers didn't want these things to be changed despite at least some of them even could boost game performance. This means that they think the available options are acceptable in terms of the benefits players with low settings might achieve over people with high details,infestation etc.
So obviously they think gamma should be same for all people which again makes tweaking gamma in driver configs a cheat in the sense of unfair advantage.
If crosshairs where options in there then by all mean change the one that comes default, but as it doesn't have this and you have to accept your modding and the game is no longer technically vanilla.
We all talk about not wanting to kill the modding community...well what about the new player or casual gamer element?
These are the people who keep the game alive by injecting new blood, by ignoring them and allowing mod'd models and the likes we create a very hostile environment for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough. I just hope we remember that on our mod witch hunt.
Regarding new/casual gamers:
Well, in truth the new/casual gamer element lives or dies on the community. Having someone with unfair mods is no different than having someone who's a really good aimer in the sense he can turn important battles. Does this person help the community and make it a better place or make it worse? The fact that there are mods out there is less important than the fact people use them. Odds are, if the person is using these mods, he knows it's not in the spirit of the game but he uses it anyways. (it's the equivalent of changing an "invisible" model to be bright orange. Most people can tell it's supposed to give you an advantage)
Which means all he cares about is k/d. <u>In any case (with mod/without mod) he'd be a detriment to the community due to his elitest must-win attitude and would affect new players the same.</u> What if (and this has been discussed to death in another thread) it wasn't a mod but just that he was good at aiming/situational aware and killed the enemy team a lot? Are you going to ban his steam ID because he's too good on a regular server?
Besides, That really doesn't matter for new players. There's always going to be "the ace" that joins the enemy team and owns your own. What keeps players playing, however, are friends and community. People they enjoy playing with, who talk to them and teach them on voice chat and even though they lose it was a fun game. Playing a game with no one talking is just boring and eerie.
Unfortunately, making a friendly and accommodating community is harder than just banning all mods on public servers. >.>
This may be true but it certainly does not help if you have the uber-skill players AND unfair mods.
Also:
Even a uber-skill player without mods/increased gamma wont see the skulk in the pitch-dark after a power node died and can be killed then.
The player with the uber-gamma spots enemies in dark corners/good hiding spots instantly and kills them. To new players this very much looks like a cheat(they really cant explain why they could be seen there) and we all know there is nothing more annoying and disheartening in online games as cheating enemies.
Also:
Even a uber-skill player without mods/increased gamma wont see the skulk in the pitch-dark after a power node died and can be killed then.
The player with the uber-gamma spots enemies in dark corners/good hiding spots instantly and kills them. To new players this very much looks like a cheat(they really cant explain why they could be seen there) and we all know there is nothing more annoying and disheartening in online games as cheating enemies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough. Although EVERYONE thinks someone is cheating. I'm pretty sure most people have thought someone somewhere has cheated against them in NS2 whether it's true or not. Exos have died to two skilled skulks. I've seen a marine kill an Onos one on one. Also, I've killed two skulks in close combat after power was cut off by blind luck and wild spraying. It happens.
Personally, I enjoy being able to see my violet cross hairs instead of the thin tiny white ones that blends into the background too much because my eyes are weak and UWE can't be arsed to make better ones.
<u>Back on topic... like I said, it's fine if we have official competitive servers that disable all mods.</u> But if that becomes the norm where the vast majority of servers ban mods, we might as well ban ALL mods since they'll essentially never be used because most servers don't support them and users won't even see them in use due to that. That's the teeter-totter issue we have.
Mods can definitely give you an advantage, I just don't think UWE care <i>that</i> much.
<!--quoteo(post=2060016:date=Jan 13 2013, 10:54 AM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 13 2013, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Back on topic... like I said, it's fine if we have official competitive servers that disable all mods.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is pretty much the worst-case scenario (would be for me, at least) because default NS2 is so obnoxiously "immersive", unfortunately.
I agree and think the only valid solution would a a white-list.
If server admins could add mods to the advanced consistency checking, things like gorge-healspray hearts could be allowed. Admins could also get a simple mod-request script where a player could just write "!admin !request gorge healspray heart mod plz plz plz"
Also people probably would create packs with commonly accepted mods so admins can simply add them to consitency checking.
This way both the people enjoying harmless mods as well as people not even knowing that there are mods would not be negatively affected.
Regarding new/casual gamers:
Well, in truth the new/casual gamer element lives or dies on the community. Having someone with unfair mods is no different than having someone who's a really good aimer in the sense he can turn important battles. Does this person help the community and make it a better place or make it worse? The fact that there are mods out there is less important than the fact people use them. Odds are, if the person is using these mods, he knows it's not in the spirit of the game but he uses it anyways. (it's the equivalent of changing an "invisible" model to be bright orange. Most people can tell it's supposed to give you an advantage)
Which means all he cares about is k/d. <u>In any case (with mod/without mod) he'd be a detriment to the community due to his elitest must-win attitude and would affect new players the same.</u> What if (and this has been discussed to death in another thread) it wasn't a mod but just that he was good at aiming/situational aware and killed the enemy team a lot? Are you going to ban his steam ID because he's too good on a regular server?
Besides, That really doesn't matter for new players. There's always going to be "the ace" that joins the enemy team and owns your own. What keeps players playing, however, are friends and community. People they enjoy playing with, who talk to them and teach them on voice chat and even though they lose it was a fun game. Playing a game with no one talking is just boring and eerie.
Unfortunately, making a friendly and accommodating community is harder than just banning all mods on public servers. >.><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not a mod witch hunt, its more a request for servers which are vanilla, another that has limited variable (ie x-hairs) and a comp setting (customizable).
This allows those who dont want to play against a mod'd config somewhere to play and vice versa for those who want to play with mods.
The servers currently can add mods to a white list even if they dont allow other mods, so to say the mod community would die is wrong.
I just hope we see some more and better checks and a vanilla server mode, will keep both parties happy.
Same applies for Exos. They are mainly meant to provide the heavy fire against all kinds of buildings and Onos. Against these the HUD is irrelevant because these things a big and dont move.
On the other Hand a unit with enough DPS to basically kill anything except onos within 1 second is awesome against skulks, lerks, fades and gorges aswell even if this is not the main gameplay purpose of the unit. So to negate some of this not wanted effectiveness the HUD is set up in a fashion to make it harder to shoot at small/fast moving targets.
So actually having a dot/whatever crosshair in Exo should be considered as cheating in the sense of unfair advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with the argument that you've presented (better than anyone else). I would make a distinction between HUD elements that are designed to obscure your vision for balance reasons (heli in BF3, the 'suit' part of the exosuit) and the crosshair, which I contest is designed to assist your aiming. Changing the first would be cheating because it is designed to be a detriment. I don't think UWE intended crosshairs to be a vision obscuring mechanic. I think they frequently get caught up in making something look cool without fully considering how annoying some people may find it. Instead, I think it is there to assist your aim. I find that acceptable to change.
It's all about intent and design of the HUD item to determine if it is cheating to change it. For example; I wouldn't consider removing the minimap from the marine's HUD as cheating because you're simply removing something designed to assist you. However, adding a minimap to the alien HUD would absolutely be cheating because the game doesn't include it by default. Likewise, removing the health bar of the hive/cc in the room you are in wouldn't be cheating in my eyes. Adding a health bar of the ip or RT would be.
Changing models, sound, fx, etc can clearly be considered cheating. I have no issue with the various cool-looking mods (cute gorge eyes, orange phasegates, etc), but I would rather lose those than have people playing with neon green skulks.
And to the people whoa are saying things like if UWE wanted such and such they would have included it in the game... seriously? Think of the things they have spoken about wanting to include that aren't there and how rushed the game was on official release.
Well, that's mostly speculation really and ike I said before, crosshairs in my opinion are right on the line so I don't really want to commit here.
BUT what I was thinking when I wrote this post was the following:
If your an inside the EXO suit and there's a skulk peeking around a corner at least I often times miss my first shots because they are too low/high and therefor the skulk gets away. I'm quite sure I'd have considerably gigher chances of hitting him if I had a crosshair. Same is true for lerks. As long as they hover up and down it is really hard to hit them with the exo suit because you never exactly know how high you are really aiming.
So maybe this is indeed not intended by UWE or maybe it's just a side effect of the art design. Personally I like to think it's at least in parts a "feature" so I don't like people to have actual crosshairs in Exos tbh.
<!--quoteo(post=2060124:date=Jan 13 2013, 06:59 PM:name=BentRing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BentRing @ Jan 13 2013, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to the people whoa are saying things like if UWE wanted such and such they would have included it in the game... seriously? Think of the things they have spoken about wanting to include that aren't there and how rushed the game was on official release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A gamma slider really is nothing very complicated. actually it's one of the few things every crappy Xbox/Playstation port has despite not having any other video options.
Together with the fact that this is a game where skulks actually are intended to ambush and hide it's not that much of a stretch to assume that gamma is not adjustable for a reason.
And to the people whoa are saying things like if UWE wanted such and such they would have included it in the game... seriously? Think of the things they have spoken about wanting to include that aren't there and how rushed the game was on official release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but been through this whole discussion with HL mods, alternative x-hairs are not something that UWE would have left out if they had wanted them in.
After all we have atleast 4 different ones on different weapons so clearly they know how to have more than 1 in the game.
The x-hair of the exo is large and obnoxious by design...its was not accidentally made much larger than the other x-hairs.
You want to play on with a modded game then play on modded servers thats your decision, but dont force people who want to play on/against vanillas servers/players to play against people who are modded.
The solution is simple, have a vanilla server mode...if so many people play with mods and want to play with mods then these vanilla servers will be empty (I doubt this) and 2 other modes as I have outlined above.
This way you and your mates can all play with your hello kitty LMG's....but you dont force your choice on others.
Sure they can join yuor modded servers...but that a choice they have.
Currently there is no choice.
I agree with your whole post. The problem is that the 'intent' behind most decisions always feels ill-thought out, with a premium on "cool" and a discount on "useful". If I had faith in UWE to put one before the other, I would have no qualms with that methodology. However, do you really believe that the overblown hud and scan-lines for the exo was a deliberate design decision? Is the unfathomably bloated gorge perspective the product of anything beyond its aesthetics? Personally, I wouldn't bet on it.
First, thank you for those awesome answers! Everyone brings powerful point and you are to justify them. Some of you made great resume of what's going on. Yesterday I found something interesting on Twitch, here a short Story.
SSF4 = Super Street Fighter 4
Set = it is won by the player which win 2 round in a fight.
(8:36) = it is the time stamp in the video.
Video Link :
It was the rebroadcast of the SSF4 AE2012 Grand Finals. Personally I don't play Super Street Fighter 4, but I can enjoy a live stream about it, particularly when the level of competition is so high. So, what we have here is during the match you can see how much a slightly visual advantage can change the outcome of a fight. To me it proves that even a crosshair change can be consider as an unfair visual advantage while other people play without the same crosshair. Things like mouse sensibility isn't visual, it is preference, but someone playing with all low resolution for running intense fight at 100 FPS is a visual advantage to me.
Game Resume : if you are too lazy to watch a 43 min fight ^.^
For the first 2 sets, Justin Wong (known for is Rufus play) as try to counter pick SnakeEye (Zangief) with the character: Adon. He did terrible and Zangief won those 2 set. Fear of losing for the next set it came back to is main character which is Rufus (8:36). Here comes the tricky part. Rufus should be a terrible pick againts Zangief which it is not the case as you can see for the next 4 set. By turteling and waiting for the time out while keeping the HP lead he manage to sneak out 4 set in a row (24:20). Taking the lead, SnakeEye had to break the momentum of Justin Wong. At 25:45 instead of changing his character he changes the ring. I won’t spoil you the end of the match, but he was a God da"/! Epic fight.
So, what I see here is two characters played at full potential in two different rings. The first ring is cover with perfect square making easier for bot player to gage the distance of their attack/enemy attack. This revealed to be a Visual advantage in a fighting game. It even permits to Justin Wong to win 4 sets in a row. Some of you can see simply a momentum break, but the fact is after the ring change Justin Wong has begun to make mistakes at gaging the distance between bot characters. In the first ring he perfectly manage to counter every single attack of its opponent, by a perfect reading of his distances allowed by the ring he was able to protect his HP lead by stepping in and out of his opponent range. This was a tournament and in that case the ring was allowed because it serve bot player. I may go too far, you can say that I'm a crazy man ^.^ don't worry I'm used to it.
Here the problems with Natural Selection. You don't want to remove modding, it will denature the game. Doing nothing is worst because you are losing lots of player due to those mods. They feel abuse once they know that there is possibility for marines to use a visual advantage during the match and they didn't know it. Some night I can't find a server to play and it is truly frustrating when you have 10 marines rushing the marine team every single game and they shoots straight at your Lerk hiding in the roof when they enter Warehouse. I used to play in green server because it is one of the only places that I can practice my skulk. The number of modders are really low on those server so I just manage to go somewhere else in the map when I thing someone is using a mod. (I use some of them myself, but in the alien team mods aren't so unfair but they still a visual advantage)
For finding solutions, I don't think it is "fixable". If you create vanilla mod for your server, you'll create a need of Dev, extra loading and all the cons that you have listed. I'm sorry I'm lazy ^.^ I won't quote everyone. But if you remove modding you'll denature the game. I keep playing because I began to see it almost like a progression ingredients. When a player needs to boost is performance he go check for mods, so he using "Science" which is a Marine thing indeed. I just hope we can get "better" mod for alien; I should make a mod which it let me see the X-ray of the marine's gun or amplifying their foot step sound. The goal will be to give the same "unfair" advantage to the Alien team
By allowing mod in the design and balance itself it create an issue which is for the moment mods give a greater advantage to one particular team and not bot team. It is easier to design a mod for marine which gives you the advantage on alien than creating a mod for alien which give an advantage on marines. I Hope the Dev will be able to find a solution for everyone. I would like to play in a vanilla server even if I lose my awesome crosshair I just want to be sure to be part of a fair fight because Natural Selection 2 is a fun game!
If you are concerned about mods giving someone an advantage you will want to play on a vanilla server that is running the extended consistency check mods. This will add models, shaders and bunch of other limitations to modding. Custom crosshairs are generally accepted as fine, many other competitive games have this built right into the game (CS has some limited crosshair tweaking, UT2k4 has it, CS:GO etc). See: http://www.ensl.org/articles/714 rule 10 for how the NSL handles it. Really this comes down to just picking the right server for the kind of play you want. Community hosted servers and modding adds a lot of longevity and flexibility to the game and I don't want to lose that.
if a game has no crosshairs... you can physically attach one to your monitor
that is why a competitive game needs full brightskins or full camo and actual UI customization, not this half-way stuff that allows cheating and rewards whose configuration of eyes / display allows them to perceive minor differences in color
I would love a name and shame policy, but I can't see any way this can be done in practice without missing some cheaters, and those determined ones are the ones I would really want to be named and shamed!
Just feels kind of lame.