The entire point of the shotgun is to be able to one-shot skulks. Doubling the ROF and halving the damage would, indeed, keep the same DPS, but require a lot more aiming from the marines. Instead of having to hit a skulk full-on once, you have to do that twice. You have to do it 4-6 times on a fade.
The shotgun is the counter to the skulk, just like the fade is the counter to the default marine.
I know, it feels bad to be one-shotted by a shotgun, but it also feels bad to encounter a fade when you're out alone with your rifle, because both make you feel like you didn't even stand a chance.
<!--quoteo(post=2059502:date=Jan 11 2013, 11:29 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 11 2013, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Q: "Why is it alright for 1 side to be able to 1 shot the most played unit of the ...."
Possible answer: Skulks are free(ish), shotguns arn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just gonna point out that other marines can pick up the shotty.
<!--quoteo(post=2059502:date=Jan 11 2013, 11:29 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 11 2013, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Q: "Why is it alright for 1 side to be able to 1 shot the most played unit of the ...."
Possible answer: Skulks are free(ish), shotguns arn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want my fade to one-shot foot lmg marines. They're free(ish) and fades arn't, so that's fair, amirite?
<!--quoteo(post=2059527:date=Jan 12 2013, 07:43 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jan 12 2013, 07:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want my fade to one-shot foot lmg marines. They're free(ish) and fades arn't, so that's fair, amirite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If your fade gets killed in less than a second by one skilled marine with a rifle, sure.
I thought we were arguing skulk vs shotgun marine, not fade vs lmg marine lol! (And dude, one on one my fade does mash most single lmg marines, it's groups I worry about)
<!--quoteo(post=2059530:date=Jan 12 2013, 12:47 AM:name=Eldrazor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Eldrazor @ Jan 12 2013, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your fade gets killed in less than a second by one skilled marine with a rifle, sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you read the post I replied to? <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->That was unnecessary. -Align<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
1 shot (luck based) mechanics have no place in any game. And justifying it with "it costs res" is asinine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought we were arguing skulk vs shotgun marine, not fade vs lmg marine lol! (And dude, one on one my fade does mash most single lmg marines, it's groups I worry about)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I'm doing is changing changes to view it differently.
Would it have been better if I said lerks should one shot lmg marines. Since lerks are only about 10 more resources than a shotty?
It's cool to have one shot mechanics, because it's marines, right?
a. There is an intended RTS unit structure to the game, in this situation: generally I find shotguns very good vs birds ;)
b. There is an intended FPS gameplay aspect to the game, in this case there is a challange, you can fly, fire and manouver at range, roost on any suface, bite and poison, yet die if you try and fly up the barrell of a shotgun.
Am I making sense so far?
Now a skulk vs shotgun, I dunno if it really happens all that often I die one shot. The game is so fast I'm not usually at max health, I one kill some poor wounded marine with spit, poison bite, single fade swipe etc way more often than I get one shot shotgunned as a max health cara skulk. And if I do then it's because I'm jumping point blank on his face trying to mastucate him.
I personally find armour level 2 alot more disruptive to my skulk patterns than shotguns. Alot more.
Poor OP fella, could be worse, like Borederlands 2, where you have to essentially type an email to your mum just to navigate the character/inventory menus.
<!--quoteo(post=2059540:date=Jan 11 2013, 11:59 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jan 11 2013, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you even read the post I replied to? Or did you get all bubbly inside thinking you had a snappy retort that made you look like an idiot instead.
1 shot (luck based) mechanics have no place in any game. And justifying it with "it costs res" is asinine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how can you say 100% of 1 shots are pure luck? How do you program out luck? According to you I can close my eyes and i can 1 shot skulks by being lucky... yeah right...
So make shotguns 2 shot kills then whose to say that 2nd shot isn't luck?
I'd just like to state that if you double the rof and half the damage, you're indirectly buffing the living ###### out of fades to a horrendous degree.
I'd also like to state that a fade can in fact two shot very reliably lv0 armor marines. They kill marines faster with blink than a marine can position and oneshot a skulk
<!--quoteo(post=2059589:date=Jan 12 2013, 10:31 AM:name=Shino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shino @ Jan 12 2013, 10:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you 1sg a skulk in NS1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In vast majority of cases yeah. I think early carapace against unupgraded shotgun is the only case where you ran out of damage per shot.
The difference is that with NS1 res model you'd have 1 or maybe 2 shotguns in a team early on. Those shotguns created actual focus points on the map and organized teams communicated and kept track on where the shotguns were going and reacted accordingly.
That's part of the story with NS2 and its res model. Everybody gets so much stuff that things are damn hard to balance, everything comes available for everyone at the same time and results in huge power shifts. Also the map doesn't have as strong focus points because the guns and lifeforms are so numerous and easy investments.
<!--quoteo(post=2059589:date=Jan 12 2013, 03:31 AM:name=Shino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shino @ Jan 12 2013, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd just like to state that if you double the rof and half the damage, you're indirectly buffing the living ###### out of fades to a horrendous degree.
I'd also like to state that a fade can in fact two shot very reliably lv0 armor marines. They kill marines faster with blink than a marine can position and oneshot a skulk
Could you 1sg a skulk in NS1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the half dmg/double rof was a suggestion. Numbers can be easily tweaked.
Difference is that's an A0 marine. Cara skulks have the most possible armor that aliens can get. The equivalent would be at least A1 or A2 if not A3. That means that it takes 3 or 4 fade swipes to kill the marine. Not even close to 1 shot.
Yes, luck will always play a part, but we want to minimize it as much as possible. Having something that can 1 shot only increases the impact of luck. If SG's dmg was halved and the rof was doubled, yes, luck still plays a part, but if a player gets lucky, he's not going to instantly kill the other player.
Difference between SG and Fade is that SG takes 20 pres (and can be reused) and fade takes 50 pres. How is it that a 20 pres weapon can be better against the base lifeform of one side than a 50 pres weapon is against the other side's base lifeform? Should this be how it is? If so, why?
<!--quoteo(post=2059540:date=Jan 12 2013, 12:59 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jan 12 2013, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1 shot (luck based) mechanics have no place in any game. And justifying it with "it costs res" is asinine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 shot has nothing to do with luck. The gun was accurately aimed and fired. All factors were deterministic. So the alien died.
You can dislike 1-shotting for other reasons, but calling it luck isn't going to win any arguments.
1-shotting is better criticized by pointing out that if you're going to play one Basketball game with your friend every 2 months, you're probably not going to choose to play that game First Point Wins, because you want the game to be a chance for both players to exhibit some skill over the long run to determine the winner.
The trick being that a "shot" in the analogy can actually mean several things. There are FPSes where you need multiple shots per kill and each fight is more impactful (eg Planetside 1), and others where death is basically instant (CoD) but because you respawn and re-engage less than 10 seconds later each death is a "shot" and you actually do end up playing to many points before the round is over. But it relates closer to the pacing of combat, and it could be argued that if the respawn time (and reinforce time: the time it takes to run back to the fight) are long, that 1-shot-kills are pretty brutal.
I don't think I'd argue against it personally, because respawn+reinforce isn't that long in NS2, and much of the gameplay revolves around reducing it further (more IPs/Eggs; and shift/phasegate to move respawn closer to the frontline), and so 1-shot-kills don't really bother much much.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2013
let's not forget the spread. there's a difference between ns1 and 2 here.. even more so considering the res model difference bacillus mentioned. ( which is on the money)
on that topic my suggestion is increase pellet count and spread size, adjust damage per pellet based on the ratio of change ( so that you can still one shot but it requires more skill with timing) and finally lower the amount of rounds to around 5.
<!--quoteo(post=2059310:date=Jan 11 2013, 10:49 AM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DC_Darkling @ Jan 11 2013, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also lets be realistic here.
From his/her post I am asuming they played NS1 mostly versus bots. No matter how brilliantly coded.. in the end a bot is stupid.
It cant be compared to a experienced player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, without an unfair advantage/making them cheat <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(PD Dark sim I'm looking at you)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> bots even in this time and date will never outsmart (most) people.
<!--quoteo(post=2059489:date=Jan 12 2013, 04:30 AM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Jan 12 2013, 04:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It only takes 8 of the 10 pellets from a W0 SG to kill a cara skulk...
I'll leave with a question. Why is it alright for 1 side to be able to 1 shot the most played unit of the other side when there is no equivalent for the other side? If there was an alien that could 1 shot marines with A3, there would be absolutely no end to the QQ regardless of how often it happened.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I had no idea how overpowered shotguns were. Next time I command marines, I'm going to immediately build armory->shotguns and then go get a sandwich... I expect no shortage of kudos from my eternally victorious marines.
:D
Lets knock out some obvious flaws in your argument.
1. The ability to "one shot" something isn't the same thing as actually getting a kill for every trigger pull. Not every shot lands or does full damage, and the TTK on any given weapon is not the raw damage x ROF math that is commonly used. 2. If the shotgun kicked like a beast and knocked the marine down after every shot, would one-shotting be an issue? No, because some shots miss and there's usually a follow up needed unless its 1v1 all the time. Now consider that the shotgun has a set and predictable RoF and know that if you can get him to miss his first shot, you have about the same odds at winning the fight as you would if he had any other weapon with a constant stream of fire tracking you. 3. Shotgun damage potential is front-loaded. The first shot is the "money shot" and beyond that every hit should boil down to skill both in landing shots and in avoiding them. If the shotgunner is surprised, then this advantage is out the window and its back to being a pure skill vs. skill engagement. Granted, the penalty for failure on the alien side is much steeper in the short run, but the marine risks 20 res every time he rolls the dice with an alien in close combat. 3. If the aliens could "one shot" marines on paper, but it never actually happened, then no, no one would QQ about it because its not ACTUALLY a problem. 4. Shotguns are terrible at range. Without the ability to one-shot or heavily maul things, regen and hit/run would make them totally worthless.
Finally, higher ROF with half the damage isn't the same DPS for the first shot and DPS assumes 100% damage transfer to the target. Shotguns are not designed to do 100% damage to the target except at relatively close range. This means that lower damage + higher ROF would make the shotguns at medium range relatively stronger if more ammo intense because the further back you get the more forgiving the random spread of pellets will be, which will push the actual DPS more toward the average... I'm not sure if that makes it more skill based or not because it would be in your interest to take more shots at longer ranges while the target is closing with you which makes the final killing shot at close range effectively the same as it is now, but with a higher margin for error because you can fire twice as fast (making you twice as likely to get lucky and still wind up winning the fight).
As it stands now, putting a shot in a skulk at medium range won't generally kill him, and you still need to land the kill shot up close anyway, so the "one shot" effect at close range isn't really any different except that the marine, knowing he has a longer delay between shots, is more inclined to let the skulk get closer to try for the kill shot rather than miss a medium range shot that won't drop the target and risk getting killed while racking the next round.
I suppose we'd have to see it modded into the game to know how players would respond, but I can say that in BF3 where pumps are 1HK's at close range and Autos are 2HK's, auto shotties are regarded as stronger because they are more forgiving. Food for thought.
DaRkL3AD3R, exos don't fight onos dude, lol skulks and gorges fight exos, jp marines fight Onos, those 2 don't fight each other unless you are out of other units.
I believe the main issue is marines are consider ranger and aliens are melee. And, when you add certain mods for marines they can really abuse the game. I had this one marine who was 30+ kills with 2 deaths. He knew where I was and never missed a shot. He didn't tell me the mods he was using but explained to me he had change a few settings and used certain mods that gives marines a huge advantage. It wasn't aimbot or anything like that but I believe he was using mods that can show aliens in brighter colors and remove certain backgrounds. UWE needs to investigate this issue and block certain mods in the game. That will fix the balance hugely.
<!--quoteo(post=2059835:date=Jan 12 2013, 04:17 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 12 2013, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lets knock out some obvious flaws in your argument.
1. The ability to "one shot" something isn't the same thing as actually getting a kill for every trigger pull. Not every shot lands or does full damage, and the TTK on any given weapon is not the raw damage x ROF math that is commonly used. 2. If the shotgun kicked like a beast and knocked the marine down after every shot, would one-shotting be an issue? No, because some shots miss and there's usually a follow up needed unless its 1v1 all the time. Now consider that the shotgun has a set and predictable RoF and know that if you can get him to miss his first shot, you have about the same odds at winning the fight as you would if he had any other weapon with a constant stream of fire tracking you. 3. Shotgun damage potential is front-loaded. The first shot is the "money shot" and beyond that every hit should boil down to skill both in landing shots and in avoiding them. If the shotgunner is surprised, then this advantage is out the window and its back to being a pure skill vs. skill engagement. Granted, the penalty for failure on the alien side is much steeper in the short run, but the marine risks 20 res every time he rolls the dice with an alien in close combat. 3. If the aliens could "one shot" marines on paper, but it never actually happened, then no, no one would QQ about it because its not ACTUALLY a problem. 4. Shotguns are terrible at range. Without the ability to one-shot or heavily maul things, regen and hit/run would make them totally worthless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. True, every shot is not a 1-shot since they are luck based and do not happen every shot.
2. Not quite. Just knowing that I have the second or so between shots to close and being able to do it does not put me on the same footing as against a marine with an lmg. The difference comes in how long it takes to run out of ammo, how much damage the weapon does per shot, and how long it takes to reload. With a marine with an lmg, I can dodge and weave, causing the marine to waste their ammo and close and bite when they're reloading. If I close before they're out of ammo, they will run out of ammo much quicker than if they had a SG due to the rof. This will then give me the time it takes for them to reload to attack them full on without any worry of being hit at all. Since the SG has the lower rof, it takes much longer before they have to reload, forcing me to have to dodge longer which increases the change that I'll be hit. Secondly, while an lmg may have more dps (I'm not sure on this one), it also requires more skill to shoot since where you're looking is where you're shooting. The SG has a much, much larger firing cone meaning that it requires less skill to hit with since you can point in their general direction and pull the trigger and have a good chance of hitting them. Yes, it will do less damage per pellet, but you will probably hit them with multiple pellets. Thirdly, the lmg takes longer to reload, giving the skulk time to close and/or bite the marine and do as much damage as possible. Since the SG reloads one shell at a time and is able to shoot each shell after it's been loaded, there is virtually no down time between possible shots. And since each shell has the chance to 1-shot the skulk, this almost continuous fire is extremely tough for a skulk to predict and deal with.
3. Why is the first shot the "money shot"? Every single shot of the 40 that a SG holds has the potential to 1-shot a skulk. It doesn't matter whether the SGer is surprised, as long as they can fire, they have the possibility to 1-shot.
4. (your second 3) Doing something on paper and not being able to do it in-game is not even relevant in this discussion. A SG can one shot a skulk on paper and in-game. If there was some alien equivalent that could 1-shot an A3 marine, there would be QQing out the wazoo and it would more than likely get nerfed before anyone could blink.
5. (your 4) True they aren't the best at range (although I would argue that they aren't as terrible as you're making them out to be), the amount of damage a SG can do close up (especially with weapon upgrades) to a fade/skulk/lerk (only hit and run type classes) even with less damage per shot, would not make them worthless. I would be ok if a SG could 1-shot a skulk (without cara) after 1 or 2 weapon upgrades since then they wouldn't be such a strong early game weapon and would make the skulk think about their upgrades. ATM, I would even argue that SGs are too strong against lerks/fades. Hence all the discussion about fades and the reason they were buffed fairly recently. The lerk's saving grace is that their hitboxes are laggy and they can dodge and weave quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=2059835:date=Jan 12 2013, 04:17 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 12 2013, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, higher ROF with half the damage isn't the same DPS for the first shot and DPS assumes 100% damage transfer to the target. Shotguns are not designed to do 100% damage to the target except at relatively close range. This means that lower damage + higher ROF would make the shotguns at medium range relatively stronger if more ammo intense because the further back you get the more forgiving the random spread of pellets will be, which will push the actual DPS more toward the average... I'm not sure if that makes it more skill based or not because it would be in your interest to take more shots at longer ranges while the target is closing with you which makes the final killing shot at close range effectively the same as it is now, but with a higher margin for error because you can fire twice as fast (making you twice as likely to get lucky and still wind up winning the fight).
As it stands now, putting a shot in a skulk at medium range won't generally kill him, and you still need to land the kill shot up close anyway, so the "one shot" effect at close range isn't really any different except that the marine, knowing he has a longer delay between shots, is more inclined to let the skulk get closer to try for the kill shot rather than miss a medium range shot that won't drop the target and risk getting killed while racking the next round.
I suppose we'd have to see it modded into the game to know how players would respond, but I can say that in BF3 where pumps are 1HK's at close range and Autos are 2HK's, auto shotties are regarded as stronger because they are more forgiving. Food for thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you double rof and half damage, then each shot will have the same dps as right now. DPS per shot does not vary in this game and of course dps is based off of 100% accuracy. The problem is like you said, SGs are designed to only do 100% dps at close range. So, in order to not make them seem worthless, they have been buffed so that, even at range, they can do a good amount of damage.
I really don't understand your reasoning here to be completely honest...
ATM, even if absolutely no damage is done at range, the marine can still deliver the "kill shot" at close range with a single shot (thus, 1-shot). If damage is done at range, it is no longer a 1-shot since multiple shots did damage. It gives the skulk the ability to make the decision of whether they want to break off or continue engaging. ATM, a skulk can close without taking any damage and then get 1-shotted. They have no choice to bail out and try to survive.
Your BF reference doesn't mean anything to me since I don't play it and, and thus, don't understand what you're talking about. Even if I did understand what you meant, I couldn't comment on it since I haven't experienced it for myself and am hesitant to take other people's word since every person has their own opinion and opinions differ from person to person.
A skulk 1 on 1 vs a shotgunning marine SHOULD worry - he should have to work extra hard to get that kill. The real question is why the skulk and the marine are on their own anyway. Sound like a couple of rambos who can't work together as a team to me ;)
But seriously, I honestly cannot understand why you're having so much of a problem with the state of shotties in NS2 right now. They are powerful, but because they have a low ROF that makes them vulnerable if the marine misses at close range. It's not a luck based weapon, you still have to aim - yes there is pellet spread (duh, it's a shotgun...) but quite frankly: GET OVER IT. There are times when you think you've been luck-killed, but you probably just got shot by a skilled marine. Go in a pack next time, alert your teammates, get gorge and lerk support to take him down. Shotguns are frustrating to play against if the marines are good, but so are good skulks, good lerks, good fades.
Better still, when you do kill that shotgunner, make sure you have backup to defend the area so the marines can't pick it up again. That's 20pres that guy has just lost. Congrats, you just killed 2 gorges :)
(PS his comments about BF3 shotties are absolutely correct)
<!--quoteo(post=2060419:date=Jan 14 2013, 10:02 AM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Jan 14 2013, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. True, every shot is not a 1-shot since they are luck based and do not happen every shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think what you're trying to say is "you still have to aim after you buy it."
Let's not bring luck into it, because luck has nothing to do with shotgun effectiveness. If it's a factor at all, it's an extremely weak factor compared with the deterministic elements (aim + range)
<!--quoteo(post=2060450:date=Jan 14 2013, 10:13 AM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 14 2013, 10:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A skulk 1 on 1 vs a shotgunning marine SHOULD worry - he should have to work extra hard to get that kill. The real question is why the skulk and the marine are on their own anyway. Sound like a couple of rambos who can't work together as a team to me ;)
But seriously, I honestly cannot understand why you're having so much of a problem with the state of shotties in NS2 right now. They are powerful, but because they have a low ROF that makes them vulnerable if the marine misses at close range. It's not a luck based weapon, you still have to aim - yes there is pellet spread (duh, it's a shotgun...) but quite frankly: GET OVER IT. There are times when you think you've been luck-killed, but you probably just got shot by a skilled marine. Go in a pack next time, alert your teammates, get gorge and lerk support to take him down. Shotguns are frustrating to play against if the marines are good, but so are good skulks, good lerks, good fades.
Better still, when you do kill that shotgunner, make sure you have backup to defend the area so the marines can't pick it up again. That's 20pres that guy has just lost. Congrats, you just killed 2 gorges :)
(PS his comments about BF3 shotties are absolutely correct)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're saying it should take a pack of skulks + lerk support + gorge support to take out a SG marine? And then you have to spend time and res to defend that area after you kill him so you can't pick it up again? You can't always run in packs, I'm sorry, I don't like 24 man servers. So what you're saying is that I should suck it up that a noob marine with a SG can completely negate any skill in dodging that I do based on the fact that he got lucky and the rng was in his favor. Doesn't sound balanced to me since SG is possible to get right out the gates, only gets better with upgrades, and isn't only strong against the skulk, it's strong against basically any lifeform except the onos.
The difference between good aliens and good SGs is that aliens (for the most part) take skill to get up close to the marine and kill them. They have to dodge and ambush to get close. SGs, due to the random spread and the strength of each pellet, require a low amount of skill (of course, there's aiming involved, but when the spread is based on a rng, even if you aim perfectly every time, you won't 1-shot every time since it's RANDOM).
<!--quoteo(post=2060474:date=Jan 14 2013, 01:34 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Jan 14 2013, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're saying it should take a pack of skulks + lerk support + gorge support to take out a SG marine? And then you have to spend time and res to defend that area after you kill him so you can't pick it up again? You can't always run in packs, I'm sorry, I don't like 24 man servers. So what you're saying is that I should suck it up that a noob marine with a SG can completely negate any skill in dodging that I do based on the fact that he got lucky and the rng was in his favor. Doesn't sound balanced to me since SG is possible to get right out the gates, only gets better with upgrades, and isn't only strong against the skulk, it's strong against basically any lifeform except the onos.
The difference between good aliens and good SGs is that aliens (for the most part) take skill to get up close to the marine and kill them. They have to dodge and ambush to get close. SGs, due to the random spread and the strength of each pellet, require a low amount of skill (of course, there's aiming involved, but when the spread is based on a rng, even if you aim perfectly every time, you won't 1-shot every time since it's RANDOM).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I also don't play on 24p servers, usually 12 or 16p servers. What I'm saying is teamwork is key, please don't take the literal sense that a whole team should be required to kill a shotgunner... but two coordinating skulks should - (that's 'should', not 'should always') be able to take down a shotgunning marine, even if one has to die doing so. That's still a win for the aliens in this case (0 res vs 20 res).
What I'm saying is that if that marine shot you in 1 shot with his shotgun, he's probably not a 'noob.' He might not even have been a lucky skilled player. Maybe he just waited, aimed and fired. The risk for him is immense in doing this: he has to hit you full on, no glancing shot, and if he doesn't, it's a world of pain while he gets ready for another shot as you bite him up.
It seems to me that the main problem you have with shotgunners is when someone *really good* has a shotgun. This is incredibly frustrating to play against, yes, but should we nerf it because people get good at it? Absolutely not. That's like nerfing the skulk because some players go 20:1 with it.
Just because shotguns are a close range weapon doesn't mean that they always hit when the alien is close (they really, really don't!!!) and also doesn't mean that we shouldn't have them in a melee vs range game. They were absolutely devastating in NS1, and we didn't call for shotgun nerfs there! Honestly, the distance at which you could 1 shot a skulk in NS1 was quite incredible. They have been nerfed in comparison, I presume to reflect the higher prevalence due to res structure changes, and I personally feel the balance is about right. I may not hold the majority view, though several others here have expressed it and I've not seen many people complaining about the SG in comparison, just yourself..., but it is my opinion and I am entitled to it! All I'm saying is that my experience of the shotgun in this game doesn't match up to your complaint about it. It's okay, we are allowed to disagree :) <hr /> PS the shotgun has to be researched first (costing res) and has to be bought with pres. If marines spawned with the shotgun at t=0, I would absolutely share your view on it, except the luck/noob comments. I simply can't agree that anyone who kills you with a shotgun is a noob or lucky: they had to aim it, even at point blank, and they probably had to shoot your teammates too, unless you were first in. That frankly, is not trivial!
<!--quoteo(post=2059219:date=Jan 11 2013, 10:13 PM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Jan 11 2013, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm guessing OP used to be somewhat decent in NS1, is now getting stomped in NS2, and rather than learning to play again decided to uninstall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2060474:date=Jan 14 2013, 12:34 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Jan 14 2013, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're saying it should take a pack of skulks + lerk support + gorge support to take out a SG marine? And then you have to spend time and res to defend that area after you kill him so you can't pick it up again? You can't always run in packs, I'm sorry, I don't like 24 man servers. So what you're saying is that I should suck it up that a noob marine with a SG can completely negate any skill in dodging that I do based on the fact that he got lucky and the rng was in his favor. Doesn't sound balanced to me since SG is possible to get right out the gates, only gets better with upgrades, and isn't only strong against the skulk, it's strong against basically any lifeform except the onos.
The difference between good aliens and good SGs is that aliens (for the most part) take skill to get up close to the marine and kill them. They have to dodge and ambush to get close. SGs, due to the random spread and the strength of each pellet, require a low amount of skill (of course, there's aiming involved, but when the spread is based on a rng, even if you aim perfectly every time, you won't 1-shot every time since it's RANDOM).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you seriously saying that a marine playing well with a shotgun is luck and not skill???
You're so incredibly wrong on the shotgun that it hurts to read your thoughts on the subject.
I think there is a fair concern that cheapish and widely present shotguns (that should ultimately be superior to skulks) is problematic. I still think this a problem waiting to spring into existence once performance, animations and registration issues are sorted. I'm pleasantly surprised it hasn't reared its ugly head yet!
Comments
The shotgun is the counter to the skulk, just like the fade is the counter to the default marine.
I know, it feels bad to be one-shotted by a shotgun, but it also feels bad to encounter a fade when you're out alone with your rifle, because both make you feel like you didn't even stand a chance.
Possible answer: Skulks are free(ish), shotguns arn't.
Possible answer: Skulks are free(ish), shotguns arn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just gonna point out that other marines can pick up the shotty.
Possible answer: Skulks are free(ish), shotguns arn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want my fade to one-shot foot lmg marines. They're free(ish) and fades arn't, so that's fair, amirite?
If your fade gets killed in less than a second by one skilled marine with a rifle, sure.
Did you read the post I replied to? <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->That was unnecessary. -Align<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
1 shot (luck based) mechanics have no place in any game. And justifying it with "it costs res" is asinine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought we were arguing skulk vs shotgun marine, not fade vs lmg marine lol! (And dude, one on one my fade does mash most single lmg marines, it's groups I worry about)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I'm doing is changing changes to view it differently.
Would it have been better if I said lerks should one shot lmg marines. Since lerks are only about 10 more resources than a shotty?
It's cool to have one shot mechanics, because it's marines, right?
a. There is an intended RTS unit structure to the game, in this situation: generally I find shotguns very good vs birds ;)
b. There is an intended FPS gameplay aspect to the game, in this case there is a challange, you can fly, fire and manouver at range, roost on any suface, bite and poison, yet die if you try and fly up the barrell of a shotgun.
Am I making sense so far?
Now a skulk vs shotgun, I dunno if it really happens all that often I die one shot. The game is so fast I'm not usually at max health, I one kill some poor wounded marine with spit, poison bite, single fade swipe etc way more often than I get one shot shotgunned as a max health cara skulk. And if I do then it's because I'm jumping point blank on his face trying to mastucate him.
I personally find armour level 2 alot more disruptive to my skulk patterns than shotguns. Alot more.
Poor OP fella, could be worse, like Borederlands 2, where you have to essentially type an email to your mum just to navigate the character/inventory menus.
1 shot (luck based) mechanics have no place in any game. And justifying it with "it costs res" is asinine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how can you say 100% of 1 shots are pure luck? How do you program out luck? According to you I can close my eyes and i can 1 shot skulks by being lucky... yeah right...
So make shotguns 2 shot kills then whose to say that 2nd shot isn't luck?
I'd also like to state that a fade can in fact two shot very reliably lv0 armor marines. They kill marines faster with blink than a marine can position and oneshot a skulk
Could you 1sg a skulk in NS1?
In vast majority of cases yeah. I think early carapace against unupgraded shotgun is the only case where you ran out of damage per shot.
The difference is that with NS1 res model you'd have 1 or maybe 2 shotguns in a team early on. Those shotguns created actual focus points on the map and organized teams communicated and kept track on where the shotguns were going and reacted accordingly.
That's part of the story with NS2 and its res model. Everybody gets so much stuff that things are damn hard to balance, everything comes available for everyone at the same time and results in huge power shifts. Also the map doesn't have as strong focus points because the guns and lifeforms are so numerous and easy investments.
I'd also like to state that a fade can in fact two shot very reliably lv0 armor marines. They kill marines faster with blink than a marine can position and oneshot a skulk
Could you 1sg a skulk in NS1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the half dmg/double rof was a suggestion. Numbers can be easily tweaked.
Difference is that's an A0 marine. Cara skulks have the most possible armor that aliens can get. The equivalent would be at least A1 or A2 if not A3. That means that it takes 3 or 4 fade swipes to kill the marine. Not even close to 1 shot.
Yes, luck will always play a part, but we want to minimize it as much as possible. Having something that can 1 shot only increases the impact of luck. If SG's dmg was halved and the rof was doubled, yes, luck still plays a part, but if a player gets lucky, he's not going to instantly kill the other player.
Difference between SG and Fade is that SG takes 20 pres (and can be reused) and fade takes 50 pres. How is it that a 20 pres weapon can be better against the base lifeform of one side than a 50 pres weapon is against the other side's base lifeform? Should this be how it is? If so, why?
1 shot has nothing to do with luck. The gun was accurately aimed and fired. All factors were deterministic. So the alien died.
You can dislike 1-shotting for other reasons, but calling it luck isn't going to win any arguments.
1-shotting is better criticized by pointing out that if you're going to play one Basketball game with your friend every 2 months, you're probably not going to choose to play that game First Point Wins, because you want the game to be a chance for both players to exhibit some skill over the long run to determine the winner.
The trick being that a "shot" in the analogy can actually mean several things. There are FPSes where you need multiple shots per kill and each fight is more impactful (eg Planetside 1), and others where death is basically instant (CoD) but because you respawn and re-engage less than 10 seconds later each death is a "shot" and you actually do end up playing to many points before the round is over. But it relates closer to the pacing of combat, and it could be argued that if the respawn time (and reinforce time: the time it takes to run back to the fight) are long, that 1-shot-kills are pretty brutal.
I don't think I'd argue against it personally, because respawn+reinforce isn't that long in NS2, and much of the gameplay revolves around reducing it further (more IPs/Eggs; and shift/phasegate to move respawn closer to the frontline), and so 1-shot-kills don't really bother much much.
From his/her post I am asuming they played NS1 mostly versus bots.
No matter how brilliantly coded.. in the end a bot is stupid.
It cant be compared to a experienced player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chiming in to say the NS1 bots were not difficult. Fun yes, but not difficult, not even remotely comparable to a player, even a mediocre one.
there's a difference between ns1 and 2 here.. even more so considering the res model difference bacillus mentioned. ( which is on the money)
on that topic my suggestion is increase pellet count and spread size, adjust damage per pellet based on the ratio of change ( so that you can still one shot but it requires more skill with timing) and finally lower the amount of rounds to around 5.
then see if the fade needs balancing.
From his/her post I am asuming they played NS1 mostly versus bots.
No matter how brilliantly coded.. in the end a bot is stupid.
It cant be compared to a experienced player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, without an unfair advantage/making them cheat <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(PD Dark sim I'm looking at you)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> bots even in this time and date will never outsmart (most) people.
I'll leave with a question. Why is it alright for 1 side to be able to 1 shot the most played unit of the other side when there is no equivalent for the other side? If there was an alien that could 1 shot marines with A3, there would be absolutely no end to the QQ regardless of how often it happened.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had no idea how overpowered shotguns were. Next time I command marines, I'm going to immediately build armory->shotguns and then go get a sandwich... I expect no shortage of kudos from my eternally victorious marines.
:D
Lets knock out some obvious flaws in your argument.
1. The ability to "one shot" something isn't the same thing as actually getting a kill for every trigger pull. Not every shot lands or does full damage, and the TTK on any given weapon is not the raw damage x ROF math that is commonly used.
2. If the shotgun kicked like a beast and knocked the marine down after every shot, would one-shotting be an issue? No, because some shots miss and there's usually a follow up needed unless its 1v1 all the time. Now consider that the shotgun has a set and predictable RoF and know that if you can get him to miss his first shot, you have about the same odds at winning the fight as you would if he had any other weapon with a constant stream of fire tracking you.
3. Shotgun damage potential is front-loaded. The first shot is the "money shot" and beyond that every hit should boil down to skill both in landing shots and in avoiding them. If the shotgunner is surprised, then this advantage is out the window and its back to being a pure skill vs. skill engagement. Granted, the penalty for failure on the alien side is much steeper in the short run, but the marine risks 20 res every time he rolls the dice with an alien in close combat.
3. If the aliens could "one shot" marines on paper, but it never actually happened, then no, no one would QQ about it because its not ACTUALLY a problem.
4. Shotguns are terrible at range. Without the ability to one-shot or heavily maul things, regen and hit/run would make them totally worthless.
Finally, higher ROF with half the damage isn't the same DPS for the first shot and DPS assumes 100% damage transfer to the target. Shotguns are not designed to do 100% damage to the target except at relatively close range. This means that lower damage + higher ROF would make the shotguns at medium range relatively stronger if more ammo intense because the further back you get the more forgiving the random spread of pellets will be, which will push the actual DPS more toward the average... I'm not sure if that makes it more skill based or not because it would be in your interest to take more shots at longer ranges while the target is closing with you which makes the final killing shot at close range effectively the same as it is now, but with a higher margin for error because you can fire twice as fast (making you twice as likely to get lucky and still wind up winning the fight).
As it stands now, putting a shot in a skulk at medium range won't generally kill him, and you still need to land the kill shot up close anyway, so the "one shot" effect at close range isn't really any different except that the marine, knowing he has a longer delay between shots, is more inclined to let the skulk get closer to try for the kill shot rather than miss a medium range shot that won't drop the target and risk getting killed while racking the next round.
I suppose we'd have to see it modded into the game to know how players would respond, but I can say that in BF3 where pumps are 1HK's at close range and Autos are 2HK's, auto shotties are regarded as stronger because they are more forgiving. Food for thought.
1. The ability to "one shot" something isn't the same thing as actually getting a kill for every trigger pull. Not every shot lands or does full damage, and the TTK on any given weapon is not the raw damage x ROF math that is commonly used.
2. If the shotgun kicked like a beast and knocked the marine down after every shot, would one-shotting be an issue? No, because some shots miss and there's usually a follow up needed unless its 1v1 all the time. Now consider that the shotgun has a set and predictable RoF and know that if you can get him to miss his first shot, you have about the same odds at winning the fight as you would if he had any other weapon with a constant stream of fire tracking you.
3. Shotgun damage potential is front-loaded. The first shot is the "money shot" and beyond that every hit should boil down to skill both in landing shots and in avoiding them. If the shotgunner is surprised, then this advantage is out the window and its back to being a pure skill vs. skill engagement. Granted, the penalty for failure on the alien side is much steeper in the short run, but the marine risks 20 res every time he rolls the dice with an alien in close combat.
3. If the aliens could "one shot" marines on paper, but it never actually happened, then no, no one would QQ about it because its not ACTUALLY a problem.
4. Shotguns are terrible at range. Without the ability to one-shot or heavily maul things, regen and hit/run would make them totally worthless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. True, every shot is not a 1-shot since they are luck based and do not happen every shot.
2. Not quite. Just knowing that I have the second or so between shots to close and being able to do it does not put me on the same footing as against a marine with an lmg. The difference comes in how long it takes to run out of ammo, how much damage the weapon does per shot, and how long it takes to reload. With a marine with an lmg, I can dodge and weave, causing the marine to waste their ammo and close and bite when they're reloading. If I close before they're out of ammo, they will run out of ammo much quicker than if they had a SG due to the rof. This will then give me the time it takes for them to reload to attack them full on without any worry of being hit at all. Since the SG has the lower rof, it takes much longer before they have to reload, forcing me to have to dodge longer which increases the change that I'll be hit. Secondly, while an lmg may have more dps (I'm not sure on this one), it also requires more skill to shoot since where you're looking is where you're shooting. The SG has a much, much larger firing cone meaning that it requires less skill to hit with since you can point in their general direction and pull the trigger and have a good chance of hitting them. Yes, it will do less damage per pellet, but you will probably hit them with multiple pellets. Thirdly, the lmg takes longer to reload, giving the skulk time to close and/or bite the marine and do as much damage as possible. Since the SG reloads one shell at a time and is able to shoot each shell after it's been loaded, there is virtually no down time between possible shots. And since each shell has the chance to 1-shot the skulk, this almost continuous fire is extremely tough for a skulk to predict and deal with.
3. Why is the first shot the "money shot"? Every single shot of the 40 that a SG holds has the potential to 1-shot a skulk. It doesn't matter whether the SGer is surprised, as long as they can fire, they have the possibility to 1-shot.
4. (your second 3) Doing something on paper and not being able to do it in-game is not even relevant in this discussion. A SG can one shot a skulk on paper and in-game. If there was some alien equivalent that could 1-shot an A3 marine, there would be QQing out the wazoo and it would more than likely get nerfed before anyone could blink.
5. (your 4) True they aren't the best at range (although I would argue that they aren't as terrible as you're making them out to be), the amount of damage a SG can do close up (especially with weapon upgrades) to a fade/skulk/lerk (only hit and run type classes) even with less damage per shot, would not make them worthless. I would be ok if a SG could 1-shot a skulk (without cara) after 1 or 2 weapon upgrades since then they wouldn't be such a strong early game weapon and would make the skulk think about their upgrades. ATM, I would even argue that SGs are too strong against lerks/fades. Hence all the discussion about fades and the reason they were buffed fairly recently. The lerk's saving grace is that their hitboxes are laggy and they can dodge and weave quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=2059835:date=Jan 12 2013, 04:17 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 12 2013, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, higher ROF with half the damage isn't the same DPS for the first shot and DPS assumes 100% damage transfer to the target. Shotguns are not designed to do 100% damage to the target except at relatively close range. This means that lower damage + higher ROF would make the shotguns at medium range relatively stronger if more ammo intense because the further back you get the more forgiving the random spread of pellets will be, which will push the actual DPS more toward the average... I'm not sure if that makes it more skill based or not because it would be in your interest to take more shots at longer ranges while the target is closing with you which makes the final killing shot at close range effectively the same as it is now, but with a higher margin for error because you can fire twice as fast (making you twice as likely to get lucky and still wind up winning the fight).
As it stands now, putting a shot in a skulk at medium range won't generally kill him, and you still need to land the kill shot up close anyway, so the "one shot" effect at close range isn't really any different except that the marine, knowing he has a longer delay between shots, is more inclined to let the skulk get closer to try for the kill shot rather than miss a medium range shot that won't drop the target and risk getting killed while racking the next round.
I suppose we'd have to see it modded into the game to know how players would respond, but I can say that in BF3 where pumps are 1HK's at close range and Autos are 2HK's, auto shotties are regarded as stronger because they are more forgiving. Food for thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you double rof and half damage, then each shot will have the same dps as right now. DPS per shot does not vary in this game and of course dps is based off of 100% accuracy. The problem is like you said, SGs are designed to only do 100% dps at close range. So, in order to not make them seem worthless, they have been buffed so that, even at range, they can do a good amount of damage.
I really don't understand your reasoning here to be completely honest...
ATM, even if absolutely no damage is done at range, the marine can still deliver the "kill shot" at close range with a single shot (thus, 1-shot). If damage is done at range, it is no longer a 1-shot since multiple shots did damage. It gives the skulk the ability to make the decision of whether they want to break off or continue engaging. ATM, a skulk can close without taking any damage and then get 1-shotted. They have no choice to bail out and try to survive.
Your BF reference doesn't mean anything to me since I don't play it and, and thus, don't understand what you're talking about. Even if I did understand what you meant, I couldn't comment on it since I haven't experienced it for myself and am hesitant to take other people's word since every person has their own opinion and opinions differ from person to person.
But seriously, I honestly cannot understand why you're having so much of a problem with the state of shotties in NS2 right now. They are powerful, but because they have a low ROF that makes them vulnerable if the marine misses at close range. It's not a luck based weapon, you still have to aim - yes there is pellet spread (duh, it's a shotgun...) but quite frankly: GET OVER IT. There are times when you think you've been luck-killed, but you probably just got shot by a skilled marine. Go in a pack next time, alert your teammates, get gorge and lerk support to take him down. Shotguns are frustrating to play against if the marines are good, but so are good skulks, good lerks, good fades.
Better still, when you do kill that shotgunner, make sure you have backup to defend the area so the marines can't pick it up again. That's 20pres that guy has just lost. Congrats, you just killed 2 gorges :)
(PS his comments about BF3 shotties are absolutely correct)
I think what you're trying to say is "you still have to aim after you buy it."
Let's not bring luck into it, because luck has nothing to do with shotgun effectiveness. If it's a factor at all, it's an extremely weak factor compared with the deterministic elements (aim + range)
But seriously, I honestly cannot understand why you're having so much of a problem with the state of shotties in NS2 right now. They are powerful, but because they have a low ROF that makes them vulnerable if the marine misses at close range. It's not a luck based weapon, you still have to aim - yes there is pellet spread (duh, it's a shotgun...) but quite frankly: GET OVER IT. There are times when you think you've been luck-killed, but you probably just got shot by a skilled marine. Go in a pack next time, alert your teammates, get gorge and lerk support to take him down. Shotguns are frustrating to play against if the marines are good, but so are good skulks, good lerks, good fades.
Better still, when you do kill that shotgunner, make sure you have backup to defend the area so the marines can't pick it up again. That's 20pres that guy has just lost. Congrats, you just killed 2 gorges :)
(PS his comments about BF3 shotties are absolutely correct)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're saying it should take a pack of skulks + lerk support + gorge support to take out a SG marine? And then you have to spend time and res to defend that area after you kill him so you can't pick it up again? You can't always run in packs, I'm sorry, I don't like 24 man servers. So what you're saying is that I should suck it up that a noob marine with a SG can completely negate any skill in dodging that I do based on the fact that he got lucky and the rng was in his favor. Doesn't sound balanced to me since SG is possible to get right out the gates, only gets better with upgrades, and isn't only strong against the skulk, it's strong against basically any lifeform except the onos.
The difference between good aliens and good SGs is that aliens (for the most part) take skill to get up close to the marine and kill them. They have to dodge and ambush to get close. SGs, due to the random spread and the strength of each pellet, require a low amount of skill (of course, there's aiming involved, but when the spread is based on a rng, even if you aim perfectly every time, you won't 1-shot every time since it's RANDOM).
The difference between good aliens and good SGs is that aliens (for the most part) take skill to get up close to the marine and kill them. They have to dodge and ambush to get close. SGs, due to the random spread and the strength of each pellet, require a low amount of skill (of course, there's aiming involved, but when the spread is based on a rng, even if you aim perfectly every time, you won't 1-shot every time since it's RANDOM).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also don't play on 24p servers, usually 12 or 16p servers. What I'm saying is teamwork is key, please don't take the literal sense that a whole team should be required to kill a shotgunner... but two coordinating skulks should - (that's 'should', not 'should always') be able to take down a shotgunning marine, even if one has to die doing so. That's still a win for the aliens in this case (0 res vs 20 res).
What I'm saying is that if that marine shot you in 1 shot with his shotgun, he's probably not a 'noob.' He might not even have been a lucky skilled player. Maybe he just waited, aimed and fired.
The risk for him is immense in doing this: he has to hit you full on, no glancing shot, and if he doesn't, it's a world of pain while he gets ready for another shot as you bite him up.
It seems to me that the main problem you have with shotgunners is when someone *really good* has a shotgun. This is incredibly frustrating to play against, yes, but should we nerf it because people get good at it? Absolutely not. That's like nerfing the skulk because some players go 20:1 with it.
Just because shotguns are a close range weapon doesn't mean that they always hit when the alien is close (they really, really don't!!!) and also doesn't mean that we shouldn't have them in a melee vs range game. They were absolutely devastating in NS1, and we didn't call for shotgun nerfs there! Honestly, the distance at which you could 1 shot a skulk in NS1 was quite incredible. They have been nerfed in comparison, I presume to reflect the higher prevalence due to res structure changes, and I personally feel the balance is about right. I may not hold the majority view, though several others here have expressed it and I've not seen many people complaining about the SG in comparison, just yourself..., but it is my opinion and I am entitled to it! All I'm saying is that my experience of the shotgun in this game doesn't match up to your complaint about it. It's okay, we are allowed to disagree :)
<hr />
PS the shotgun has to be researched first (costing res) and has to be bought with pres. If marines spawned with the shotgun at t=0, I would absolutely share your view on it, except the luck/noob comments. I simply can't agree that anyone who kills you with a shotgun is a noob or lucky: they had to aim it, even at point blank, and they probably had to shoot your teammates too, unless you were first in. That frankly, is not trivial!
I mean he killed bots and everything.
The difference between good aliens and good SGs is that aliens (for the most part) take skill to get up close to the marine and kill them. They have to dodge and ambush to get close. SGs, due to the random spread and the strength of each pellet, require a low amount of skill (of course, there's aiming involved, but when the spread is based on a rng, even if you aim perfectly every time, you won't 1-shot every time since it's RANDOM).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you seriously saying that a marine playing well with a shotgun is luck and not skill???
You're so incredibly wrong on the shotgun that it hurts to read your thoughts on the subject.