<!--quoteo(post=2060556:date=Jan 14 2013, 03:56 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 14 2013, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you seriously saying that a marine playing well with a shotgun is luck and not skill???
You're so incredibly wrong on the shotgun that it hurts to read your thoughts on the subject.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I fully admit that it takes skill. I'm arguing that the SG involves more luck than most (if not all) marine and alien weapons. This involvance upon luck means that even a terrible marine can do decently well with a SG (speaking about myself) and that a good marine becomes nigh on godly. The impact of luck on the SG is magnitudes higher than that of luck upon, for example, a lmg.
He forgot that ns2 is also a rts game. That's what ridiculous is, not ns2's balance. Aren't aliens actually winning more? I don't pretend to say that aliens op, but if it's completely true, how should i understand what he wrote down?
<!--quoteo(post=2060584:date=Jan 14 2013, 03:17 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Jan 14 2013, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, I fully admit that it takes skill. I'm arguing that the SG involves more luck than most (if not all) marine and alien weapons. This involvance upon luck means that even a terrible marine can do decently well with a SG (speaking about myself) and that a good marine becomes nigh on godly. The impact of luck on the SG is magnitudes higher than that of luck upon, for example, a lmg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? I think you're using the wrong word. What you're using is Luck when what I think you mean is skill. An unskilled marine will do mediocre with the shotgun while a skilled marine becomes godly (just like how a skilled Lerk or Fade becomes godly).
As for your shotgun skills, I can tell you when I see a fellow marine buy a shotgun, I normally follow them to get myself a free shotgun to use because 9/10 times they can't aim worth ###### and die to a 2v2 against skulks. The fact of the matter is if the marine couldn't shoot didly with an LMG, it's unlikely he'll be shutting down an attack compared to a good marine. Can he be dangerous? Of course, just like I'd expect a Lerk or Fade to be dangerous.
However, if I saw my entire team buy shotguns at the beginning of the round, I'd save my res and pick up my free shotty off the ground later. If a team of<b> noobs </b>rushed a hive with LMGs vs Shotguns, I would expect similar results in either case. The hive would either go down or it wouldn't. Of course, if the marine team was a mix of skilled players and noobs, that's different. The multiplicative factor isn't the shotgun, it's the player's skill. The only area where your argument somewhat works is in Onos/Exos, which are roles that require less skill and are "luck" based.
<!--quoteo(post=2060584:date=Jan 14 2013, 06:17 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Jan 14 2013, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, I fully admit that it takes skill. I'm arguing that the SG involves more luck than most (if not all) marine and alien weapons. This involvance upon luck means that even a terrible marine can do decently well with a SG (speaking about myself) and that a good marine becomes nigh on godly. The impact of luck on the SG is magnitudes higher than that of luck upon, for example, a lmg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If luck is an element to SG use at all, it has such a minor influence as to not be worth mentioning. You point and click, and depending on range and accuracy you're either going to hit or miss -- there's nothing random or "lucky" about that. It's either 100% deterministic or very nearly so.
<!--quoteo(post=2060584:date=Jan 14 2013, 06:17 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Jan 14 2013, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, I fully admit that it takes skill. I'm arguing that the SG involves more luck than most (if not all) marine and alien weapons. This involvance upon luck means that even a terrible marine can do decently well with a SG (speaking about myself) and that a good marine becomes nigh on godly. The impact of luck on the SG is magnitudes higher than that of luck upon, for example, a lmg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you assume that luck is always good or that luck = natural skill boost?
If (good) luck can cause you to land shots/pellets that you should have missed, then why can't (bad) luck cause you to miss shots/pellets that you should have missed?
<!--quoteo(post=2060618:date=Jan 14 2013, 06:30 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 14 2013, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do you assume that luck is always good or that luck = natural skill boost?
If (good) luck can cause you to land shots/pellets that you should have missed, then why can't (bad) luck cause you to miss shots/pellets that you should have missed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, bad luck with the SG will cause minimal damage/misses.
I guess that a solution would be to not have random spread. That would reduce the luck component since good players would be able to aim and not have to hope that they get a good pellet spread. I still vote that the damage be toned down since 1-shots are frustrating and annoying to play against, but I could live with them if they required more than just hoping on the rng of the SG.
<!--quoteo(post=2060662:date=Jan 14 2013, 10:37 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Jan 14 2013, 10:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, bad luck with the SG will cause minimal damage/misses.
I guess that a solution would be to not have random spread. That would reduce the luck component since good players would be able to aim and not have to hope that they get a good pellet spread. I still vote that the damage be toned down since 1-shots are frustrating and annoying to play against, but I could live with them if they required more than just hoping on the rng of the SG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait up you can't have this both ways... the random spread works to make the shotgun poor at range (mostly...) and great close up. You've said that anyone who kills you with a shotgun is lucky (whether you're close up or not it seems), but what about all those missed shots due to random spread? Random spread is a necessary mechanic for a shotgun. If you don't have it, you have a sniper rifle.
And this concept of 'hoping on the rng of the SG' is nonsense. A skilled player will take the risk of allowing aliens to close the gap, relying on his *skill* to make that 1 shot count. If he misses (which may be bad luck because of random spread), he is in a world of trouble. That's the risk he takes by not shooting when they're further away. Just because a marine doesn't shoot at you until you get close, then 1 shots you, that doesn't make him lucky, it makes him skilled at using the weapon that he's paid pres for!
I agree that it's frustrating to get 1-shotted, but honestly I'm happy that it's in the game. It works both ways around (ie as the shotgunner or against the shotgunner), and it's very satisfying to land some perfect shots with the shotgun. You know that feeling when a skulk is closing in on you and you hold, hold, BOOM? That feeling of 'Yeah, that was a FINE shot!' When you get 1-shotted, that's what the shotgunner is thinking. You should praise their skill and go in next time with some teammates ;)
Comments
You're so incredibly wrong on the shotgun that it hurts to read your thoughts on the subject.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I fully admit that it takes skill. I'm arguing that the SG involves more luck than most (if not all) marine and alien weapons. This involvance upon luck means that even a terrible marine can do decently well with a SG (speaking about myself) and that a good marine becomes nigh on godly. The impact of luck on the SG is magnitudes higher than that of luck upon, for example, a lmg.
Really? I think you're using the wrong word. What you're using is Luck when what I think you mean is skill. An unskilled marine will do mediocre with the shotgun while a skilled marine becomes godly (just like how a skilled Lerk or Fade becomes godly).
As for your shotgun skills, I can tell you when I see a fellow marine buy a shotgun, I normally follow them to get myself a free shotgun to use because 9/10 times they can't aim worth ###### and die to a 2v2 against skulks. The fact of the matter is if the marine couldn't shoot didly with an LMG, it's unlikely he'll be shutting down an attack compared to a good marine. Can he be dangerous? Of course, just like I'd expect a Lerk or Fade to be dangerous.
However, if I saw my entire team buy shotguns at the beginning of the round, I'd save my res and pick up my free shotty off the ground later. If a team of<b> noobs </b>rushed a hive with LMGs vs Shotguns, I would expect similar results in either case. The hive would either go down or it wouldn't. Of course, if the marine team was a mix of skilled players and noobs, that's different. The multiplicative factor isn't the shotgun, it's the player's skill. The only area where your argument somewhat works is in Onos/Exos, which are roles that require less skill and are "luck" based.
If luck is an element to SG use at all, it has such a minor influence as to not be worth mentioning. You point and click, and depending on range and accuracy you're either going to hit or miss -- there's nothing random or "lucky" about that. It's either 100% deterministic or very nearly so.
Why do you assume that luck is always good or that luck = natural skill boost?
If (good) luck can cause you to land shots/pellets that you should have missed, then why can't (bad) luck cause you to miss shots/pellets that you should have missed?
If (good) luck can cause you to land shots/pellets that you should have missed, then why can't (bad) luck cause you to miss shots/pellets that you should have missed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, bad luck with the SG will cause minimal damage/misses.
I guess that a solution would be to not have random spread. That would reduce the luck component since good players would be able to aim and not have to hope that they get a good pellet spread. I still vote that the damage be toned down since 1-shots are frustrating and annoying to play against, but I could live with them if they required more than just hoping on the rng of the SG.
I guess that a solution would be to not have random spread. That would reduce the luck component since good players would be able to aim and not have to hope that they get a good pellet spread. I still vote that the damage be toned down since 1-shots are frustrating and annoying to play against, but I could live with them if they required more than just hoping on the rng of the SG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait up you can't have this both ways... the random spread works to make the shotgun poor at range (mostly...) and great close up. You've said that anyone who kills you with a shotgun is lucky (whether you're close up or not it seems), but what about all those missed shots due to random spread? Random spread is a necessary mechanic for a shotgun. If you don't have it, you have a sniper rifle.
And this concept of 'hoping on the rng of the SG' is nonsense. A skilled player will take the risk of allowing aliens to close the gap, relying on his *skill* to make that 1 shot count. If he misses (which may be bad luck because of random spread), he is in a world of trouble. That's the risk he takes by not shooting when they're further away. Just because a marine doesn't shoot at you until you get close, then 1 shots you, that doesn't make him lucky, it makes him skilled at using the weapon that he's paid pres for!
I agree that it's frustrating to get 1-shotted, but honestly I'm happy that it's in the game. It works both ways around (ie as the shotgunner or against the shotgunner), and it's very satisfying to land some perfect shots with the shotgun. You know that feeling when a skulk is closing in on you and you hold, hold, BOOM? That feeling of 'Yeah, that was a FINE shot!' When you get 1-shotted, that's what the shotgunner is thinking. You should praise their skill and go in next time with some teammates ;)