<!--quoteo(post=2060360:date=Jan 14 2013, 01:25 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 14 2013, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The OP and everyone agreeing with him are retarded... i said it... retarded. They have no mapping experience and believe that there will never be any great maps for NS2.
Even with the extra things that need to be considered when mapping for NS2, the mapping community is incredible, have great imaginations and will still be able to make incredible maps that rival even ones from NS1.
It takes TIME to make these maps, you certainly can't expect them so soon after the games been released. Making maps for natural selection is the most demanding thing compared to other games I have ever seen because of their sheer size and complexity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we clearly have more mapping experience than you based on your above post. If you have nothing inteligent to say ... dont say anything at all. It just makes you look like a complete and utter fool
<!--quoteo(post=2059990:date=Jan 13 2013, 02:52 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jan 13 2013, 02:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 for the op
but you forgot to mention that UWE themselves have tried to limit mappers by creating rules on how those maps should be created (if they are ever to be accepted as official that is) This means that there will be no Maze of corridors anymore on official maps and no more interesting layouts, instead we have this : tech room - small coridor - rt room - small coridor - tech room ... rince repeat. This is why all the maps seem to have a wagon wheel design<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
truth. i'm redoing my map now to accommodate this design.
<!--quoteo(post=2060400:date=Jan 14 2013, 03:52 PM:name=MrRadicalEd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrRadicalEd @ Jan 14 2013, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I enjoyed NS1 because the games did not funnel players in to combat at every corner. If you wanted that, there was NS Combat. NS1 enjoyed a great variety of challenges that kept players engaged-
If you got on an elevator in NS1, you better be aware of the consequences of being in a confined space.. just like climbing a ladder... I never wanted a sterile environment , and I challenge Charlie to look back to the past and embrace the best of the best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, I agree, but that doesn't mean we are right. Either way, it is just a design choice that UWE are promoting at the moment. Its all up to the mapper whether or not he wishes to stick to these guidelines or not. I say again, there are absolutely no concrete engine or mechanic limitations which are hindering the design of maps. None.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2060321:date=Jan 13 2013, 10:24 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->how? create a statue like elevated structure with a techpoint on top of it? how's is the marine comm going to jump in the CC then? park some fire trucks around it?
that's like saying "cars can easily get away with 3 wheels". The game simply doesn't work with complex structuring because of the cysts/macs/arcs/drifter and most importantly, power nodes. Cysting alone for the allien khomm would be extremely difficult, infact, alot of ppl are already complaining about cysting in central drilling (mineshaft) and generator (dockings).
u know why? because UWE knows full well that the game design wouldn't work with complex strucutres with major elevations. Thanks for proving my point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They could make the tech node include a volume such that if its a command station, its built at the bottom of that volume, and if its a hive, its built at the top. Of course, having hives floating 20 feet above the healing ability of crags/gorges would be just as stupid in NS2 as it was in NS1.
As far as I can tell, the only complex geometry that would be prevented by AI pathing would be ladder-only rooms or maps. However, such rooms/maps would be terrible anyways since aliens can't use ladders, effectively gimping gorges and onos.
Also, extensive level-over-level is just as bad design in NS2 as it was in NS1. Its confusing on the minimap, since it can't distinguish between the top and bottom levels, and makes it difficult for the comm to drop/place anything underneath the top level. That's why you couldn't have maps with multiple skyscraper-like levels in NS1 and NS2.
Of course, being bad design doesn't prevent custom mappers from doing it. I'm sure we'll see more maps doing this as more mappers start/finish their NS2 maps.
<!--quoteo(post=2060327:date=Jan 13 2013, 11:39 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jan 13 2013, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a submarine is not a building
and it takes 2 weeks to learn the tools .... unless you have no experience in mapping what so ever.
do you have autism or something ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well that's a fairly rude comment. Clearly a submarine is not a building unless it's being used as one, and several are actually, take the Nautilus for example it's a museum now.
Yes it takes 2 weeks to learn the tools... If you have no experience, which is what I was suggesting a lot of people don't have. Thank you for reinforcing my point.
No, do you have the ability to communicate like a normal human being, or are you not allowed to play with matches?
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2060327:date=Jan 13 2013, 10:39 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jan 13 2013, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and it takes 2 weeks to learn the tools .... unless you have no experience in mapping what so ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Learning the tools in spark are simple, but actually finishing a map is time consuming. I went through the process last spring/summer to see what it entailed and it took me roughly 2 months of part-time work (10-20 hours/week) to finish the barebones, but playable, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119536" target="_blank">ns2_deadlyarena</a>. Other mappers have spent upwards of 9-12 months to get the level of detail similar to the official maps (which took years to make).
<!--quoteo(post=2060391:date=Jan 14 2013, 08:12 AM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Jan 14 2013, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: actually, you actually have said something moderately constructive in the first reply to the thread. Dunno how you could have misunderstood the intention of the thread since that post though. It's not like the thread title is "NS2 maps suck".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can't read between the lines of what the OP is saying, then I don't know what to tell you..... he is basically saying.... "NS2 maps can't be as good as NS1 maps because of XXXX limitations".
He is simply wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2060435:date=Jan 14 2013, 10:23 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jan 14 2013, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->we clearly have more mapping experience than you based on your above post. If you have nothing inteligent to say ... dont say anything at all. It just makes you look like a complete and utter fool<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2060652:date=Jan 15 2013, 01:20 PM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 15 2013, 01:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can't read between the lines of what the OP is saying, then I don't know what to tell you..... he is basically saying.... "NS2 maps can't be as good as NS1 maps because of XXXX limitations".
He is simply wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
mate, you're in serious denial. You're like those people who cover their ears and go "nah nah nah nah, I can't hear you!" All the hard evidences have been laid out in front of you but you choose not to see them.
<!--quoteo(post=2060660:date=Jan 14 2013, 07:22 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 14 2013, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->mate, you're in serious denial. You're like those people who cover their ears and go "nah nah nah nah, I can't hear you!" All the hard evidences have been laid out in front of you but you choose not to see them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I guess you're right. We should just give up on making any new maps because of these restrictions. It's quite obvious nothing can be done with the Spark engine and UWE's limitation in place to make an interesting map anymore.
In all seriousness, some people think the mappers can work around these restrictions. Others in this thread do not. For the moment until UWE does change the system, I think the best course of actions for current mappers is to push and fool around with mapping and see what can be done. It's not like NS2 is currently filled to the brim with custom maps.
Regarding this problem (which I agree with you on), What do you propose Amb? What could we, as a community, do to alleviate this problem of map restrictions. Do you think these restrictions are serious enough that UWE should remake the game restrictions (change the tech points/cyst system)? Do you think it would be feasible for UWE to remove the tech point/cyst system? What alternative do you think would work to create dynamic maps like the ones you posted yet which doesn't require too much effort from UWE? Afterall, a complete change of the system would mean very little new content( balance changes, bug/network issues, no gorge tunnels/babblers/railguns, etc.) and would be a huge undertaking for the company.
What do you think would be a good compromise/alternative between what we have right now and the NS1 style maps (which were fun but also different)?
<!--quoteo(post=2060664:date=Jan 14 2013, 07:42 PM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 14 2013, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I guess you're right. We should just give up on making any new maps because of these restrictions. It's quite obvious nothing can be done with the Spark engine and UWE's limitation in place to make an interesting map anymore.
In all seriousness, some people think the mappers can work around these restrictions. Others in this thread do not. For the moment until UWE does change the system, I think the best course of actions for current mappers is to push and fool around with mapping and see what can be done. It's not like NS2 is currently filled to the brim with custom maps.
Regarding this problem (which I agree with you on), What do you propose Amb? What could we, as a community, do to alleviate this problem of map restrictions. Do you think these restrictions are serious enough that UWE should remake the game restrictions (change the tech points/cyst system)? Do you think it would be feasible for UWE to remove the tech point/cyst system? What alternative do you think would work to create dynamic maps like the ones you posted yet which doesn't require too much effort from UWE? Afterall, a complete change of the system would mean very little new content( balance changes, bug/network issues, no gorge tunnels/babblers/railguns, etc.) and would be a huge undertaking for the company.
What do you think would be a good compromise/alternative between what we have right now and the NS1 style maps (which were fun but also different)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Wouldn't this topic be better suited for Creation/Mapping forum?
I played NS1 and will not be angry if all the olds maps can't be imported perfectly.
<!--quoteo(post=2060680:date=Jan 15 2013, 03:18 PM:name=Ciro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ciro @ Jan 15 2013, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played NS1 and will not be angry if all the olds maps can't be imported perfectly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's not about remaking those ns1 maps, it's about what can be done in ns1 maps that can't be replicated in ns2 maps due to the limitation this game has set in place. Of cause UWE can change it at anytime to make things all work again but until they do, tough.
<!--quoteo(post=2059978:date=Jan 12 2013, 11:28 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 12 2013, 11:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->OK I'm keeping this as short as possible to keep it "TL DR" tards friendly.
Anyway, I feel that the NS2 engine/mechanics are severely limiting its own map designs, mappers aren't given a lot of room for creativity and here's why:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->NS2 maps have to be "wheelchair" friendly<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> What does that mean? Simple: cysts, macs, arcs and drifters can only travel on X and Y axis, there's no Z. How does that affect map design? Well, map design such as <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//3.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//6.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> won't happen in NS2 unless UWE change this core mechanic (I seriously doubt they'd have the time/resource to do this).
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Engine limitation<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> the current NS2 engine doesn't allow the viewing range to exceed what was it? 45 meters? This means mappers simply can't create anything with a major elevation or descension.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->The introduction of tech points<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> The "aliens hive must also be built on a tech point" rule again severely limits map design. What do all the hives in NS2 have in common? That's right, they are all barely 2 feet off the ground. Remember how awesome <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> use to be? Yeah well, you aren't gonna see stuff like that anymore in NS2, sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here is what you listed as limitations.
<!--quoteo(post=2060698:date=Jan 14 2013, 09:58 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 14 2013, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's not about remaking those ns1 maps, it's about what can be done in ns1 maps that can't be replicated in ns2 maps due to the limitation this game has set in place. Of cause UWE can change it at anytime to make things all work again but until they do, tough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of those "limitations" let's examine which are true.
Cysts limit how maps can be laid out. In a way yes, are there creative solutions around them? Yes. Stairs aren't exactly wheelchair accessible, and as a marine do I really want to deal with ladders all the time? No. So is this really a limitation? Sort of not really, maps like previous ones can be made again with slight changes.
The engine doesn't allow viewing past 45 meters. That's a long way really and the commanders view height is set by the map I believe. So in that case I don't see a problem with it. You can still make maps that have different elevations. Making maps where you have ceilings the comm can't see through is generally a bad idea anyway, so any talk about towers is pretty pointless.
Tech points, they existed in NS1. The hive always had to be built at a predetermined spot. And honestly a hive could be built higher up they'd just need a platform under it. But building a hive so high up isn't really balanced and would suck in several situations. Onos couldn't get to it to kill marine on top of it, skulks would have a hard time getting to it, marines couldn't knife it, etc etc. So sure it's a limitation sort of, but not a bad one by any means.
I think you just need to let go of the past and realize this is NS2.
Someone mentioned the lack of elevators in NS2 ? Their are quite important in this room.
@Davil, could you draw a quick sketch of how you would make this particular area cyst friendly (so you can cyst the double res from each starting hive) ? I'm curious to see your creative solution.
Don't see what stops mappers putting ramped access to those areas. Either via a vent or via a regular ramp in the room itself.
It's also odd that the thread seems to paint it in a purely 'ns2 is more limited' light. There are mechanics in NS2 that weren't in NS1, you could play far more with light/power node mechanics in NS2. Having a part of a room with the power node which controls light and power another room, perhaps. Or having rooms that are tech points but not resource points, or resource points but not tech points. NS2 allows you to force a lot of compromise and choice in where players put their bases.
<!--quoteo(post=2060652:date=Jan 14 2013, 09:20 PM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 14 2013, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can't read between the lines of what the OP is saying, then I don't know what to tell you..... he is basically saying.... "NS2 maps can't be as good as NS1 maps because of XXXX limitations".
He is simply wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well thanks for making a wild assumption like that, lumping me and everybody else in the thread with it, and calling us all retarded. Whilst he has since certainly indicated that he prefers NS1 maps, I tend to get my information from the content of what's being said, rather than what you imagine is being not said. I also don't imagine what's not being said, and imagine a whole bunch of other people not saying it, and insult them based on that.
I like most NS2 maps, maybe with the exception of summit, and think docking stands among some of the best NS1 maps, and do think there will be some great NS2 maps despite what you think I and everybody else in the thread thinks, and despite the very real limitations being discussed. I didn't think I'd have to actually say it and still be able to discuss mapping limitations without somebody assuming what my opinions are, and calling me retarded based on their wrong assumptions.
You also went from accepting this thread is about mapping limitations, and discussing it moderately intelligently, to "OP and everybody else thinks NS2 maps suck and will never be good" to "OP thinks NS2 maps will never be as good as NS1 maps" - so I'm having a little trouble keeping up.
I should probably shut up before you attempt to "read between the lines" any more, because you're obviously pretty terrible at that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't see what stops mappers putting ramped access to those areas. Either via a vent or via a regular ramp in the room itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same reason why people don't think Egyptians have used straight ramps to build the great pyramids: they would need to be freaking long. You can't make arbitrary steep ramps in NS2, otherwise players can't walk on them. In an area with a lot of elevation in a tiny space like the double in ns_orgin, you would need so much ramp space that the whole area would hardly look like the original. Not to mention how different ramps and elevators are gameplay wise.
<!--quoteo(post=2060824:date=Jan 15 2013, 02:56 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 15 2013, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The same reason why people don't think Egyptians have used straight ramps to build the great pyramids: they would need to be freaking long. You can't make arbitrary steep ramps in NS2, otherwise players can't walk on them. In an area with a lot of elevation in a tiny space like the double in ns_orgin, you would need so much ramp space that the whole area would hardly look like the original. Not to mention how different ramps and elevators are gameplay wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, make them interesting?
Have say, a double back staircase in an alcove in the wall. Or have it go onto a little landing with a control panel or something and room to move around and then continue further up, or have it turn sideways along a wall corner, or have it be integrated into the supports for your upper level, or make your upper level accessible from a different room with the ramp/stairs in it.
I've done loads of mapping for the empires mod, and the worst parts of every map I make is when I do something stupid and need to put a lift in to make it work. The stairs work fine, the lifts are terrible, as are ladders. Lifts and ladders are pretty bad mechanics in a 'realistic' sort of game, which is to say any game that doesn't make lifts work like they do in unreal tournament (50 million miles an hour, instant activating). Not to mention of course the problems of integrating significant amounts of level-over-level into a game that uses a 2d minimap and not having it get confusing.
They just turn into campfests, and there's always a way to work a staircase into your design. It's almost always preferable to do so, as well. I guess it's theoretically limiting, but it's limiting a (in my experience) universally terrible mechanic. Elevators are not good focal points, and as they are generally the only way to access places where they are used, they <i>always</i> become the focal point whenever two sides clash in that area. They're huge choke points (unless supplemented by alternate routes/ramps) and they are really really sucky choke points too. Any chokepoint that massive is a bad thing, but elevators take regular choke points and exacerbate every problem with them.
<!--quoteo(post=2060806:date=Jan 16 2013, 12:31 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 16 2013, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And honestly a hive could be built higher up they'd just need a platform under it. But building a hive so high up isn't really balanced and would suck in several situations. Onos couldn't get to it to kill marine on top of it, skulks would have a hard time getting to it, marines couldn't knife it, etc etc. So sure it's a limitation sort of, but not a bad one by any means.
I think you just need to let go of the past and realize this is NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
really? The hives have been placed high in the air in ns1 for 10 years and it never caused any balancing issue. What gives?
<!--quoteo(post=2060832:date=Jan 15 2013, 05:15 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 15 2013, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->really? The hives have been placed high in the air in ns1 for 10 years and it never caused any balancing issue. What gives?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You clearly don't remember how retarded it was fighting jetpackers in hive rooms like maintenance on eclipse.
You clearly don't remember how retarded it was fighting jetpackers in hive rooms like maintenance on eclipse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it never was. it never is.
<!--quoteo(post=2060844:date=Jan 16 2013, 02:49 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 16 2013, 02:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You clearly don't remember how retarded it was fighting jetpackers in hive rooms like maintenance on eclipse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
since when is onos the solution to jetpackers in ns1? get some webs?
The hive in NS1 wasn't a comm chair. It seems to me that your complaint here is mostly along the lines of 'OMGzor I don't like NS2 I want everything back to the way it was in NS1.' I hate to break it to you, but it's a different game. There are plenty of people who don't like having alien commanders (I'm not amongst them, I really like having that variety and I find it a nice change of pace from marine comming, keeps the game interesting IMHO), and who don't like not having focus (I'm with them on that one), and so on and so forth. Ultimately, though, if UWE wanted to put out an updated graphics version of NS1, then they would have done so.
If you have a hive floating high up, you will need a mechanic to get any alien into it (eg comming gorges...), be that a larger 'use' box or some sort of ramp. That must be doable on some level, and with the modding tools available in NS2, I'm sure some bright spark can come up with a way to make it work.
However: NS2 is not the same game as NS1, and why *should* it have precisely the same features in it as NS1? It already brings a lot through, and probably more mechanics to come (eg webs), and I find it ridiculous to get all up in arms about how this game will never be as good as NS1 even before we have more than a handful of custom maps coming through.
Give the mappers a chance (better still, have a go yourself), and if what you really want is NS1, not NS2, then I'm pretty sure there are still some servers out there - go and play that instead...?
<!--quoteo(post=2060868:date=Jan 16 2013, 04:19 AM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 16 2013, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The hive in NS1 wasn't a comm chair. It seems to me that your complaint here is mostly along the lines of 'OMGzor I don't like NS2 I want everything back to the way it was in NS1.'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2060881:date=Jan 15 2013, 12:46 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 15 2013, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I stopped reading your post at that line.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then unfortunately I can help you no further :(
I want to say 'get over it,' but I think it's probably falling on deaf ears (or blind eyes?).
Never played NS1, but I don't understand these complaints. The OP gives a list of them, but they make nearly no sense. Can you elaborate?
NS1 had a commander right? With top down view, like NS2? How can the rooms-above-rooms thing be different then? What gameplay can be done in NS1 that can't be done in NS2 in this respect? There is the draw distance limitation, it *is* quite low, but I don't see how it allows fundamentally less gameplay - it's still enough for multiple levels of elevation. And if it's really a showstopper, it can still be changed. Did NS1 have mega huge rooms? Also I don't see how some cleverly placed ramps for NPCs are impossible if you want more vertical gameplay. For example, I don't see any problem in <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//6.jpg" target="_blank">this image</a>. Just extend the ramp to where the player stands, and done. And who says NPCs have to be able to go every route that players can? Just give them an alternate route nearby. And what are floating Hives good for? A Hive on a pillar with a ladder or ramp is fundamentally different? How?
So what is actually, really different in NS2? Draw distance limitation? No water implemented (yet)? Is that it? Any other *actual* fundamental differences?
I just don't get it. No offense, but for me this sounds very much like "This game is not NS1 1:1, so some things are different!!!!11" QQ.
<!--quoteo(post=2060868:date=Jan 15 2013, 12:19 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 15 2013, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems to me that your complaint here is mostly along the lines of 'OMGzor I don't like NS2 I want everything back to the way it was in NS1.'
...
However: NS2 is not the same game as NS1, and why *should* it have precisely the same features in it as NS1? It already brings a lot through, and probably more mechanics to come (eg webs), and I find it ridiculous to get all up in arms about how this game will never be as good as NS1 even before we have more than a handful of custom maps coming through.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is anybody actually saying this? Seems like you're just jumping to conclusions and putting words in his mouth.
<!--quoteo(post=2060664:date=Jan 14 2013, 10:42 PM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 14 2013, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding this problem (which I agree with you on), What do you propose Amb? What could we, as a community, do to alleviate this problem of map restrictions. Do you think these restrictions are serious enough that UWE should remake the game restrictions (change the tech points/cyst system)? Do you think it would be feasible for UWE to remove the tech point/cyst system? What alternative do you think would work to create dynamic maps like the ones you posted yet which doesn't require too much effort from UWE? Afterall, a complete change of the system would mean very little new content( balance changes, bug/network issues, no gorge tunnels/babblers/railguns, etc.) and would be a huge undertaking for the company.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple solution to the biggest problem outlined in OP's post (which I've already suggested): allow the mapper to set locations where the cyst mechanic can be broken and allow massive jumps in height. Still doesn't fix locations being unreachable by drifters/macs/arcs, but spreading infestation is much more important than that anyway. Of course, it still requires routes to be left open for drifters to leave the hive area (lest certain hives being too bad to start at if they are located at the bottom of a pit they can't send drifters out to scout from). Of course you could set arcs, macs and drifters to travel on the locations where the cyst chain can be broken as well, but it would just look amateurish and weird for arcs to travel up a massive cliff or whatever.
Comments
Even with the extra things that need to be considered when mapping for NS2, the mapping community is incredible, have great imaginations and will still be able to make incredible maps that rival even ones from NS1.
It takes TIME to make these maps, you certainly can't expect them so soon after the games been released. Making maps for natural selection is the most demanding thing compared to other games I have ever seen because of their sheer size and complexity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we clearly have more mapping experience than you based on your above post. If you have nothing inteligent to say ... dont say anything at all. It just makes you look like a complete and utter fool
but you forgot to mention that UWE themselves have tried to limit mappers by creating rules on how those maps should be created (if they are ever to be accepted as official that is) This means that there will be no Maze of corridors anymore on official maps and no more interesting layouts, instead we have this : tech room - small coridor - rt room - small coridor - tech room ... rince repeat. This is why all the maps seem to have a wagon wheel design<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
truth. i'm redoing my map now to accommodate this design.
If you got on an elevator in NS1, you better be aware of the consequences of being in a confined space.. just like climbing a ladder... I never wanted a sterile environment , and I challenge Charlie to look back to the past and embrace the best of the best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, I agree, but that doesn't mean we are right. Either way, it is just a design choice that UWE are promoting at the moment. Its all up to the mapper whether or not he wishes to stick to these guidelines or not. I say again, there are absolutely no concrete engine or mechanic limitations which are hindering the design of maps.
None.
that's like saying "cars can easily get away with 3 wheels". The game simply doesn't work with complex structuring because of the cysts/macs/arcs/drifter and most importantly, power nodes. Cysting alone for the allien khomm would be extremely difficult, infact, alot of ppl are already complaining about cysting in central drilling (mineshaft) and generator (dockings).
u know why? because UWE knows full well that the game design wouldn't work with complex strucutres with major elevations. Thanks for proving my point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They could make the tech node include a volume such that if its a command station, its built at the bottom of that volume, and if its a hive, its built at the top. Of course, having hives floating 20 feet above the healing ability of crags/gorges would be just as stupid in NS2 as it was in NS1.
As far as I can tell, the only complex geometry that would be prevented by AI pathing would be ladder-only rooms or maps. However, such rooms/maps would be terrible anyways since aliens can't use ladders, effectively gimping gorges and onos.
Also, extensive level-over-level is just as bad design in NS2 as it was in NS1. Its confusing on the minimap, since it can't distinguish between the top and bottom levels, and makes it difficult for the comm to drop/place anything underneath the top level. That's why you couldn't have maps with multiple skyscraper-like levels in NS1 and NS2.
Of course, being bad design doesn't prevent custom mappers from doing it. I'm sure we'll see more maps doing this as more mappers start/finish their NS2 maps.
and it takes 2 weeks to learn the tools .... unless you have no experience in mapping what so ever.
do you have autism or something ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that's a fairly rude comment. Clearly a submarine is not a building unless it's being used as one, and several are actually, take the Nautilus for example it's a museum now.
Yes it takes 2 weeks to learn the tools... If you have no experience, which is what I was suggesting a lot of people don't have. Thank you for reinforcing my point.
No, do you have the ability to communicate like a normal human being, or are you not allowed to play with matches?
Learning the tools in spark are simple, but actually finishing a map is time consuming. I went through the process last spring/summer to see what it entailed and it took me roughly 2 months of part-time work (10-20 hours/week) to finish the barebones, but playable, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119536" target="_blank">ns2_deadlyarena</a>. Other mappers have spent upwards of 9-12 months to get the level of detail similar to the official maps (which took years to make).
If you can't read between the lines of what the OP is saying, then I don't know what to tell you..... he is basically saying.... "NS2 maps can't be as good as NS1 maps because of XXXX limitations".
He is simply wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2060435:date=Jan 14 2013, 10:23 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jan 14 2013, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->we clearly have more mapping experience than you based on your above post. If you have nothing inteligent to say ... dont say anything at all. It just makes you look like a complete and utter fool<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doubt you have more mapping experience.
He is simply wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
mate, you're in serious denial. You're like those people who cover their ears and go "nah nah nah nah, I can't hear you!" All the hard evidences have been laid out in front of you but you choose not to see them.
Well, I guess you're right. We should just give up on making any new maps because of these restrictions. It's quite obvious nothing can be done with the Spark engine and UWE's limitation in place to make an interesting map anymore.
In all seriousness, some people think the mappers can work around these restrictions. Others in this thread do not. For the moment until UWE does change the system, I think the best course of actions for current mappers is to push and fool around with mapping and see what can be done. It's not like NS2 is currently filled to the brim with custom maps.
Regarding this problem (which I agree with you on), What do you propose Amb? What could we, as a community, do to alleviate this problem of map restrictions. Do you think these restrictions are serious enough that UWE should remake the game restrictions (change the tech points/cyst system)? Do you think it would be feasible for UWE to remove the tech point/cyst system? What alternative do you think would work to create dynamic maps like the ones you posted yet which doesn't require too much effort from UWE? Afterall, a complete change of the system would mean very little new content( balance changes, bug/network issues, no gorge tunnels/babblers/railguns, etc.) and would be a huge undertaking for the company.
What do you think would be a good compromise/alternative between what we have right now and the NS1 style maps (which were fun but also different)?
In all seriousness, some people think the mappers can work around these restrictions. Others in this thread do not. For the moment until UWE does change the system, I think the best course of actions for current mappers is to push and fool around with mapping and see what can be done. It's not like NS2 is currently filled to the brim with custom maps.
Regarding this problem (which I agree with you on), What do you propose Amb? What could we, as a community, do to alleviate this problem of map restrictions. Do you think these restrictions are serious enough that UWE should remake the game restrictions (change the tech points/cyst system)? Do you think it would be feasible for UWE to remove the tech point/cyst system? What alternative do you think would work to create dynamic maps like the ones you posted yet which doesn't require too much effort from UWE? Afterall, a complete change of the system would mean very little new content( balance changes, bug/network issues, no gorge tunnels/babblers/railguns, etc.) and would be a huge undertaking for the company.
What do you think would be a good compromise/alternative between what we have right now and the NS1 style maps (which were fun but also different)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Wouldn't this topic be better suited for Creation/Mapping forum?
I played NS1 and will not be angry if all the olds maps can't be imported perfectly.
it's not about remaking those ns1 maps, it's about what can be done in ns1 maps that can't be replicated in ns2 maps due to the limitation this game has set in place. Of cause UWE can change it at anytime to make things all work again but until they do, tough.
Anyway, I feel that the NS2 engine/mechanics are severely limiting its own map designs, mappers aren't given a lot of room for creativity and here's why:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->NS2 maps have to be "wheelchair" friendly<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
What does that mean? Simple: cysts, macs, arcs and drifters can only travel on X and Y axis, there's no Z. How does that affect map design? Well, map design such as <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//3.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//6.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> won't happen in NS2 unless UWE change this core mechanic (I seriously doubt they'd have the time/resource to do this).
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Engine limitation<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
the current NS2 engine doesn't allow the viewing range to exceed what was it? 45 meters? This means mappers simply can't create anything with a major elevation or descension.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->The introduction of tech points<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The "aliens hive must also be built on a tech point" rule again severely limits map design. What do all the hives in NS2 have in common? That's right, they are all barely 2 feet off the ground. Remember how awesome <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> use to be? Yeah well, you aren't gonna see stuff like that anymore in NS2, sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is what you listed as limitations.
<!--quoteo(post=2060698:date=Jan 14 2013, 09:58 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 14 2013, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's not about remaking those ns1 maps, it's about what can be done in ns1 maps that can't be replicated in ns2 maps due to the limitation this game has set in place. Of cause UWE can change it at anytime to make things all work again but until they do, tough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of those "limitations" let's examine which are true.
Cysts limit how maps can be laid out. In a way yes, are there creative solutions around them? Yes. Stairs aren't exactly wheelchair accessible, and as a marine do I really want to deal with ladders all the time? No. So is this really a limitation? Sort of not really, maps like previous ones can be made again with slight changes.
The engine doesn't allow viewing past 45 meters. That's a long way really and the commanders view height is set by the map I believe. So in that case I don't see a problem with it. You can still make maps that have different elevations. Making maps where you have ceilings the comm can't see through is generally a bad idea anyway, so any talk about towers is pretty pointless.
Tech points, they existed in NS1. The hive always had to be built at a predetermined spot. And honestly a hive could be built higher up they'd just need a platform under it. But building a hive so high up isn't really balanced and would suck in several situations. Onos couldn't get to it to kill marine on top of it, skulks would have a hard time getting to it, marines couldn't knife it, etc etc. So sure it's a limitation sort of, but not a bad one by any means.
I think you just need to let go of the past and realize this is NS2.
Someone mentioned the lack of elevators in NS2 ? Their are quite important in this room.
@Davil, could you draw a quick sketch of how you would make this particular area cyst friendly (so you can cyst the double res from each starting hive) ? I'm curious to see your creative solution.
It's also odd that the thread seems to paint it in a purely 'ns2 is more limited' light. There are mechanics in NS2 that weren't in NS1, you could play far more with light/power node mechanics in NS2. Having a part of a room with the power node which controls light and power another room, perhaps. Or having rooms that are tech points but not resource points, or resource points but not tech points. NS2 allows you to force a lot of compromise and choice in where players put their bases.
He is simply wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well thanks for making a wild assumption like that, lumping me and everybody else in the thread with it, and calling us all retarded. Whilst he has since certainly indicated that he prefers NS1 maps, I tend to get my information from the content of what's being said, rather than what you imagine is being not said. I also don't imagine what's not being said, and imagine a whole bunch of other people not saying it, and insult them based on that.
I like most NS2 maps, maybe with the exception of summit, and think docking stands among some of the best NS1 maps, and do think there will be some great NS2 maps despite what you think I and everybody else in the thread thinks, and despite the very real limitations being discussed. I didn't think I'd have to actually say it and still be able to discuss mapping limitations without somebody assuming what my opinions are, and calling me retarded based on their wrong assumptions.
You also went from accepting this thread is about mapping limitations, and discussing it moderately intelligently, to "OP and everybody else thinks NS2 maps suck and will never be good" to "OP thinks NS2 maps will never be as good as NS1 maps" - so I'm having a little trouble keeping up.
I should probably shut up before you attempt to "read between the lines" any more, because you're obviously pretty terrible at that.
The same reason why people don't think Egyptians have used straight ramps to build the great pyramids: they would need to be freaking long.
You can't make arbitrary steep ramps in NS2, otherwise players can't walk on them. In an area with a lot of elevation in a tiny space like the double in ns_orgin, you would need so much ramp space that the whole area would hardly look like the original. Not to mention how different ramps and elevators are gameplay wise.
You can't make arbitrary steep ramps in NS2, otherwise players can't walk on them. In an area with a lot of elevation in a tiny space like the double in ns_orgin, you would need so much ramp space that the whole area would hardly look like the original. Not to mention how different ramps and elevators are gameplay wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, make them interesting?
Have say, a double back staircase in an alcove in the wall. Or have it go onto a little landing with a control panel or something and room to move around and then continue further up, or have it turn sideways along a wall corner, or have it be integrated into the supports for your upper level, or make your upper level accessible from a different room with the ramp/stairs in it.
I've done loads of mapping for the empires mod, and the worst parts of every map I make is when I do something stupid and need to put a lift in to make it work. The stairs work fine, the lifts are terrible, as are ladders. Lifts and ladders are pretty bad mechanics in a 'realistic' sort of game, which is to say any game that doesn't make lifts work like they do in unreal tournament (50 million miles an hour, instant activating). Not to mention of course the problems of integrating significant amounts of level-over-level into a game that uses a 2d minimap and not having it get confusing.
They just turn into campfests, and there's always a way to work a staircase into your design. It's almost always preferable to do so, as well. I guess it's theoretically limiting, but it's limiting a (in my experience) universally terrible mechanic. Elevators are not good focal points, and as they are generally the only way to access places where they are used, they <i>always</i> become the focal point whenever two sides clash in that area. They're huge choke points (unless supplemented by alternate routes/ramps) and they are really really sucky choke points too. Any chokepoint that massive is a bad thing, but elevators take regular choke points and exacerbate every problem with them.
I think you just need to let go of the past and realize this is NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
really? The hives have been placed high in the air in ns1 for 10 years and it never caused any balancing issue. What gives?
<!--quoteo(post=2060832:date=Jan 15 2013, 05:15 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 15 2013, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->really? The hives have been placed high in the air in ns1 for 10 years and it never caused any balancing issue. What gives?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You clearly don't remember how retarded it was fighting jetpackers in hive rooms like maintenance on eclipse.
You clearly don't remember how retarded it was fighting jetpackers in hive rooms like maintenance on eclipse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it never was. it never is.
since when is onos the solution to jetpackers in ns1? get some webs?
If you have a hive floating high up, you will need a mechanic to get any alien into it (eg comming gorges...), be that a larger 'use' box or some sort of ramp. That must be doable on some level, and with the modding tools available in NS2, I'm sure some bright spark can come up with a way to make it work.
However: NS2 is not the same game as NS1, and why *should* it have precisely the same features in it as NS1? It already brings a lot through, and probably more mechanics to come (eg webs), and I find it ridiculous to get all up in arms about how this game will never be as good as NS1 even before we have more than a handful of custom maps coming through.
Give the mappers a chance (better still, have a go yourself), and if what you really want is NS1, not NS2, then I'm pretty sure there are still some servers out there - go and play that instead...?
I stopped reading your post at that line.
Then unfortunately I can help you no further :(
I want to say 'get over it,' but I think it's probably falling on deaf ears (or blind eyes?).
NS1 had a commander right? With top down view, like NS2? How can the rooms-above-rooms thing be different then? What gameplay can be done in NS1 that can't be done in NS2 in this respect?
There is the draw distance limitation, it *is* quite low, but I don't see how it allows fundamentally less gameplay - it's still enough for multiple levels of elevation. And if it's really a showstopper, it can still be changed. Did NS1 have mega huge rooms?
Also I don't see how some cleverly placed ramps for NPCs are impossible if you want more vertical gameplay. For example, I don't see any problem in <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//6.jpg" target="_blank">this image</a>. Just extend the ramp to where the player stands, and done. And who says NPCs have to be able to go every route that players can? Just give them an alternate route nearby.
And what are floating Hives good for? A Hive on a pillar with a ladder or ramp is fundamentally different? How?
So what is actually, really different in NS2?
Draw distance limitation?
No water implemented (yet)?
Is that it?
Any other *actual* fundamental differences?
I just don't get it. No offense, but for me this sounds very much like "This game is not NS1 1:1, so some things are different!!!!11" QQ.
...
However: NS2 is not the same game as NS1, and why *should* it have precisely the same features in it as NS1? It already brings a lot through, and probably more mechanics to come (eg webs), and I find it ridiculous to get all up in arms about how this game will never be as good as NS1 even before we have more than a handful of custom maps coming through.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is anybody actually saying this? Seems like you're just jumping to conclusions and putting words in his mouth.
Simple solution to the biggest problem outlined in OP's post (which I've already suggested): allow the mapper to set locations where the cyst mechanic can be broken and allow massive jumps in height. Still doesn't fix locations being unreachable by drifters/macs/arcs, but spreading infestation is much more important than that anyway. Of course, it still requires routes to be left open for drifters to leave the hive area (lest certain hives being too bad to start at if they are located at the bottom of a pit they can't send drifters out to scout from). Of course you could set arcs, macs and drifters to travel on the locations where the cyst chain can be broken as well, but it would just look amateurish and weird for arcs to travel up a massive cliff or whatever.