<!--quoteo(post=2062502:date=Jan 18 2013, 10:03 AM:name=Mouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mouse @ Jan 18 2013, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Water, elevators, weldables *tries to think of some more*
BTW While it's nice that you have mustered an opinion that is different to that of the OP, there's no reason to rage about it until people bow before the might of your point of view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please. Maybe if you did your job, you would note that, at the start of the thread, my posts were nothing but civil and constructive. However after consistent abuse I'm afraid I could not resist the temptation to sink to the same level. But that's ok, I know the mods just skim through anyway. Maybe go back to randomly choosing which threads you want to lock today?
As for your somewhat related comment: Elevators have once again already been covered in this thread. They, along with many other platforms, were known flow breakers and were just their for atmosphere in NS1, rather that actual gameplay. This demonstrated by their large scale removal from NS1 maps as the game matured.
Water? Really? You must be joking. Name a single worthwhile body of water in NS1, and then tell me what made it worthwhile.
Weldables are debateable. I tell you what, I will compromise with you on this one. I will give you weldables as something worthwhile that NS2 could benefit from. On the other hand, it must be said that NS1 never managed to implement weldables in an effective and strategic way.
One more thing on how even with some maps having 5 tech points each faction can only spawn at maybe 2 of them. Either faction should be able to spawn at any tech point. Such as with mineshaft marines should have a chance to spawn at cave and vice versa for aliens at operations.
<!--quoteo(post=2062522:date=Jan 18 2013, 09:09 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it must be said that NS1 never managed to implement weldables in an effective and strategic way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
really? welding vents in double in ns_veil? welding vents in double in ns_tanith? Do you know why ur copping so much abuse? Because you keep posting lies.
<!--quoteo(post=2062543:date=Jan 18 2013, 12:49 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 18 2013, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->really? welding vents in double in ns_veil? welding vents in double in ns_tanith? Do you know why ur copping so much abuse? Because you keep posting lies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reread what I wrote. Effective <b>and strategic</b>. What is so strategic about paying the +-10 res to prevent your base in double from being instantly annihilated? I'm not saying it wasn't effective. Hell, when marines pitched up in an area, rest assured, every weldable within 100m was going to get hit, but that's the problem. no choice, no pros and cons, no strategy. Weld the vent weld the door weld the wall. Weld everything because weldable.
To be honest, the unweldable vents in double res on ns2_veil introduce far more strategy. When you start the game you have two options. Either you have jetpacks and or grenade launchers by the 6-7th minute, or you don't bother taking double because you will lose it to bile bomb. That actually has an effect on the game unlike paying a measly 10 resources to undertake a no brainer.
<!--quoteo(post=2062547:date=Jan 18 2013, 10:01 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is so strategic about paying the +-10 res to prevent your base in double from being instantly annihilated?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This guy is a buffoon and he's tipped over the edge. I don't care much that weldable entities don't exist in NS2 but I can think of plenty of genuine decisions to be made as to whether to weld a vent or not. Certainly, excusing mindless pubs, the choice to drop a welder could be be part of a strategy in itself and then there was always the choice to be made as to whether it was worth investing time and risking your life welding things in the first place.
<!--quoteo(post=2062557:date=Jan 18 2013, 01:19 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 18 2013, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This guy is a buffoon and he's tipped over the edge. I don't care much that weldable entities don't exist in NS2 but I can think of plenty of genuine decisions to be made as to whether to weld a vent or not. Certainly, excusing mindless pubs, the choice to drop a welder could be be part of a strategy in itself and then there was always the choice to be made as to whether it was worth investing time and risking your life welding things in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stating that you can think of many examples, and then stating none, is typically quite indicative of something. Off hand I can think of a single weld point in the whole of NS1 that required some thought. Not a large amount of though, but at least it was something. I'll see if we come up with the same, single example.
The whole point is that weldables tend to be marine-biased. That doesn't mean that strategy or tactics aren't affected. Anyway, I think I made a huge mistake engaging with you so I'm out!
Anyway, we plan on pushing against and hopefully moving beyond some of the existing restrictions with our future maps, and would encourage community mappers to do the same.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the insight, Cory!
I absolutely 'get' what you've done, and I for one like it. I can understand some of the arguments against this approach, but I don't agree with the assertion that these can't be circumvented by level designers. One of NS1's strengths was a broad selection of maps and a strong mapping community. I'm very eager to see what these folks make of NS2 in the coming months, and that screenshot looks very tantalising - can't wait to play on Descent!
Much of the reason this thread has fallen foul of some less savoury posts (perhaps including my own if I'm honest), is the rather negative tone of the initial views, in multiple posts from several people. I'm really glad to have seen some positive, forward thinking posts that promote creativity. That was one of the NS1 community's most impressive attributes, and long may it continue!!
<!--quoteo(post=2062522:date=Jan 18 2013, 11:09 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 11:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for your somewhat related comment: Elevators have once again already been covered in this thread. They, along with many other platforms, were known flow breakers and were just their for atmosphere in NS1, rather that actual gameplay. This demonstrated by their large scale removal from NS1 maps as the game matured.
Water? Really? You must be joking. Name a single worthwhile body of water in NS1, and then tell me what made it worthwhile.
Weldables are debateable. I tell you what, I will compromise with you on this one. I will give you weldables as something worthwhile that NS2 could benefit from. On the other hand, it must be said that NS1 never managed to implement weldables in an effective and strategic way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I played a quite a few maps in many different games using water in ways that I found really usefull and fun. Most often it is used as a form of elevator, although often stairs can be used instead (unless its to block heavier units from elevating at that point). But I also seen it well-used in games with fall damage to make areas where falling is ok (most notably surf_ maps in cs), and as a safety net in areas which need skill to traverse, and if you fail, rather than killing you, they make you quite vulnerable while you travel to an exit-point. Another use for it is a form of moat. You generally move slower while in water, and often with less precision, making it harder to dodge, and with an overlay, also harder to aim.
For those who says they want water for their maps, why not try out the water mod on workshop?
On the note of weldables and other events changing the map in various ways, this was most often done using hammers input/outputs system iirc. Shouldnt be too hard to code such a mapping entity for spark if you use the IOFramework mod on workshop.
<!--quoteo(post=2062381:date=Jan 18 2013, 02:33 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 18 2013, 02:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->don't bother, I said fire up NS1 and see for yourself. Everything moves much slower in NS1 compared to NS2. Again, I play NS1 everyday still, would you like me to FRAP up a video and do a side by side comparison?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you really only read the first two words of that sentence? I just said I watched a video.
Selectively quoting portions of sentences doesn't actually allow you to retroactively alter my points.
<!--quoteo(post=2062547:date=Jan 18 2013, 11:01 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reread what I wrote. Effective <b>and strategic</b>. What is so strategic about paying the +-10 res to prevent your base in double from being instantly annihilated? I'm not saying it wasn't effective. Hell, when marines pitched up in an area, rest assured, every weldable within 100m was going to get hit, but that's the problem. no choice, no pros and cons, no strategy. Weld the vent weld the door weld the wall. Weld everything because weldable.
To be honest, the unweldable vents in double res on ns2_veil introduce far more strategy. When you start the game you have two options. Either you have jetpacks and or grenade launchers by the 6-7th minute, or you don't bother taking double because you will lose it to bile bomb. That actually has an effect on the game unlike paying a measly 10 resources to undertake a no brainer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kinda this. Weldables are more or less just busy work. Once you capture a place, spend a while welding everything in sight, end up better off.
It's like if the game introduced a lot of buttons you have to press to slightly increase resource income from a location. It's a mechanic, but it doesn't add much value. You're probably not going to prioritize welding over anything else because the value alone is not enough, and there's no reason not to do it afterwards because the benefit is permanent.
I think you could do the weldable concept much better with power nodes, have some map functions linked to the power nodes in addition to the lighting, that way marines do have a choice, do they try to build the power node first to make the room more secure and make it more in their favor, or do they try to clear it of aliens first? Do they build a sentry first or do they fix the power node to block off entrances? When aliens are attacking, do they kill the power node first to open more ways into the room or block marine entrances into the room, or do they take out the PG first to cut that route, or if there is no PG do they try to scout some of the more likely entrances to catch marines before they arrive.
Basically you could improve weldables by just making them destroyable in some way, that way it's a risk/reward thing and not a minor investment for permanent reward. There's no reason not to do something that will always pay off for the rest of the game, but there is a reason to prioritize one thing over another in the opening stages of room contention, and decide what to protect in the long run. Having it tied to something that is already of value means it may be a priority, and having it be automatic (as you do eventually need to fix the power node) after a while removes the busy work from it. It also includes aliens in the mix some more as they can choose to undo it, and it allows more variety in power mechanics from room to room. Some rooms might not be very important to power, some rooms might be moreso.
I agree that weldable vents are boring, marines always want to close all the vents so it does feel like busywork. There's no real tactical thinking there, if you can do it you do it. Weldables with pros/cons are more interesting, like opening/closing a door that has tactical value to both teams. However it could be problematic to put that decision in the hands of players on the field - in a pub game, people will simply weld everything that has a welder icon on it and that's that, which could screw over their team if it's something like a permanently closeable door.
<!--quoteo(post=2062678:date=Jan 18 2013, 10:26 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 18 2013, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that weldable vents are boring, marines always want to close all the vents so it does feel like busywork. There's no real tactical thinking there, if you can do it you do it. Weldables with pros/cons are more interesting, like opening/closing a door that has tactical value to both teams. However it could be problematic to put that decision in the hands of players on the field - in a pub game, people will simply weld everything that has a welder icon on it and that's that, which could screw over their team if it's something like a permanently closeable door.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ha, anyone else notice that in this paragraph you can replace welding with the words power node and cysts?
Welders being able to seal things off was never an idea completely taken off the table. I think it was played with a bit in the beta actually but in the end most people thought it was a pretty pointless thing to do. I personally wouldn't mind seeing a few RT's that were accessible only after getting a welder to it, that makes things somewhat interesting, but at the same time grants advantages to one team over the other. The other thing about welding vents is that there aren't too many vents i really would care about welding. So I don't actually care about welding things at all to be honest.
As far as water goes, you've all seen lava on refinery right? Well shouldn't be a big secret that water is basically the same thing except with a different texture. I don't think it will have actual fluid dynamics movement to it though and would instead be half-life style but it didn't matter then did it?
Since Cory already showed a picture of a new map, I think I can say that it truly is an amazing looking map. So from my point of view, the 'limitations' you all are talking about, aren't limitations, just your rose colored glasses getting in the way of you enjoying what is truly a fun and extremely enjoyable game. And that really is a pity.
<!--quoteo(post=2062678:date=Jan 18 2013, 05:26 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 18 2013, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that weldable vents are boring, marines always want to close all the vents so it does feel like busywork. There's no real tactical thinking there, if you can do it you do it. Weldables with pros/cons are more interesting, like opening/closing a door that has tactical value to both teams. However it could be problematic to put that decision in the hands of players on the field - in a pub game, people will simply weld everything that has a welder icon on it and that's that, which could screw over their team if it's something like a permanently closeable door.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like the door in trams south tech points east side (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrXZwHGmYyQ" target="_blank">a few builds ago</a>)? The one that commanders almost always locked because it was 2 seconds traveltime for marines to reach its opposite side through the northern bigger ramp-entrance, while having it locked gave the commander a <b>much</b> more defendable base.
<!--quoteo(post=2062502:date=Jan 18 2013, 08:03 AM:name=Mouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mouse @ Jan 18 2013, 08:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Water, elevators, weldables *tries to think of some more*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Regarding water, it depends on if you are talking about water that you can be fully submerged in, or water that is shallow, to walk through. Shallow water can almost be done now, but Max is working on some refraction effects (to improve cloaking) and that will be able to be used to get a nice water look. Beyond that there are some additional things, like reflection (in the works) , fresnals, caustics which all make it look better. Then you add some splash particle effects (easy) when walking around in the water, and good to go.
Water that you can actually be submerged in, is a little more complicated, but also very debatable how well that fits in with NS2 gameplay. But with some clever mapping/FX/lighting, and some additional modding, something can probably be made to work.
Weldables is something we've always talked about adding, and was pretty much working. But from a design standpoint there were many issues with welding of doors, and we decided we wanted to do something a little more dynamic, versatile, and interesting for welding, and have plans to pursue that for the big content update after this next one.
Triggerable elements are definitely on the list, and something we want to do a lot more of on maps in the future. Brian has already added the basics for this (an example is using the jukebox in the Onos bar to change the track) and with a little more work we'll be able to use this for a whole variety of things -- opening/closing large loading doors, triggering something to collapse, or activate an animated prop, or turn off a large fan to open up a route through a fan shaft or something. We eventually would like to have some maps that are have some very important triggerable events that could really impact gameplay, creating kind of a different game mode if you play on those maps. So, this could be anything...from being able to seal off a room and flood it with water/lava, open up an airlock and suck players out into space, turn off the gravity on a space ship so suddenly everyone is floating around :P Who knows, there are a lot of endless possibilites that will hopefully be explored by both UWE and modders in the future.
<!--quoteo(post=2062734:date=Jan 19 2013, 05:08 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 19 2013, 05:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Triggerable elements are definitely on the list, and something we want to do a lot more of on maps in the future. Brian has already added the basics for this (an example is using the jukebox in the Onos bar to change the track) and with a little more work we'll be able to use this for a whole variety of things -- opening/closing large loading doors, triggering something to collapse, or activate an animated prop, or turn off a large fan to open up a route through a fan shaft or something. We eventually would like to have some maps that are have some very important triggerable events that could really impact gameplay, creating kind of a different game mode if you play on those maps. So, this could be anything...from being able to seal off a room and flood it with water/lava, open up an airlock and suck players out into space, turn off the gravity on a space ship so suddenly everyone is floating around :P Who knows, there are a lot of endless possibilites that will hopefully be explored by both UWE and modders in the future.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea was already explored in ns1 by custom mappers. I don't know if people still remember co_airlock? Definitely looking forward to this in future content updates.
Cory, current commander limitations (i.e. being unable to switch between floor levels) prevents us from playing vertical maps (although none exist at present). For example, imagine a map where the aliens start at the bottom floor and the marines at the top; each floor being relatively small but connected by vents and stairs and housing valuable resources. This would require different play to what we see at present and would add to the variation of maps.
I think it's a shame that we will never see something like this, especially given that new commanders can't even cope with placing cysts on and below platforms of existing maps.
man, sure are lots of people who seem to hate NS1 systems. my main priority is fun, and when I think back to NS1 elevators definitely enhanced my fun.
the argument has been made "They disrupted flow and were complained about". LOL! Oh no, you have to wait 5-10 seconds for an elevator to move so you can continue walking. I guess with the ADHD riddled brains these days 5-10 seconds of waiting is simply too much.
Nevermind that clever mapping could make elevators a useful slow-down mechanism to balance distances between tech points/rt rooms.
On another note, I'm noticing some general elitism from people who play "competatively". Mainly, that casual/public gamers are scum of the earth. I don't mind if you take it to the next level, but your elitism is pretty rotten.
The devs will do what they want in the end anyways, I'm just saying I thoroughly enjoyed elevators in NS1. I'm sorry if you don't want elevators in, because I find the bunnyhopping quake style gameplay to be idiotic which is what you want when you say elevators "disrupt flow of the game".
<!--quoteo(post=2062779:date=Jan 18 2013, 11:37 AM:name=john_b)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (john_b @ Jan 18 2013, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->man, sure are lots of people who seem to hate NS1 systems. my main priority is fun, and when I think back to NS1 elevators definitely enhanced my fun.
the argument has been made "They disrupted flow and were complained about". LOL! Oh no, you have to wait 5-10 seconds for an elevator to move so you can continue walking. I guess with the ADHD riddled brains these days 5-10 seconds of waiting is simply too much.
Nevermind that clever mapping could make elevators a useful slow-down mechanism to balance distances between tech points/rt rooms.
On another note, I'm noticing some general elitism from people who play "competatively". Mainly, that casual/public gamers are scum of the earth. I don't mind if you take it to the next level, but your elitism is pretty rotten.
The devs will do what they want in the end anyways, I'm just saying I thoroughly enjoyed elevators in NS1. I'm sorry if you don't want elevators in, because I find the bunnyhopping quake style gameplay to be idiotic which is what you want when you say elevators "disrupt flow of the game".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmmm... Elevators equals no bunny hopping is the statement you're trying to make...
Well it's great if you like elevators so much that not having them spoils your fun, but seems the majority of us did not. I would in fact avoid them 99% of the time if they existed. Also going to point out quake had elevators, as did half-life, and NS1... Still bunny hopping.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I've always liked the way Killing Floor dealt with weldable doors. Welder left-click welds the door, while right-click unwelds, with the enemy being able to break the weld by attacking it. I think it could work well in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=2062766:date=Jan 18 2013, 09:07 PM:name=nsguy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nsguy @ Jan 18 2013, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cory, current commander limitations (i.e. being unable to switch between floor levels) prevents us from playing vertical maps (although none exist at present). For example, imagine a map where the aliens start at the bottom floor and the marines at the top; each floor being relatively small but connected by vents and stairs and housing valuable resources. This would require different play to what we see at present and would add to the variation of maps.
I think it's a shame that we will never see something like this, especially given that new commanders can't even cope with placing cysts on and below platforms of existing maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you name any RTS in which this has ever been done effectively? I guess Metal Fatigue tried it out, but honestly it didn't work very well in my opinion.
Basically my point is that its all well and good to want to see certain cool mechanics in a game, but thinking that "its a shame" that we will may not see something that has never been done before in any game before this one, is a little over the top.
<!--quoteo(post=2062816:date=Jan 18 2013, 09:01 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you name any RTS in which this has ever been done effectively?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does it matter? There are many examples of things that have been done poorly in the past and better in the present.
Bind scrollwheel to cycle through the different floors and I see no difficulties for the commander.
<!--quoteo(post=2062779:date=Jan 18 2013, 07:37 PM:name=john_b)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (john_b @ Jan 18 2013, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the argument has been made "They disrupted flow and were complained about". LOL! Oh no, you have to wait 5-10 seconds for an elevator to move so you can continue walking. I guess with the ADHD riddled brains these days 5-10 seconds of waiting is simply too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That isn't what flow means.
Level flow describes the fluid motion of players through the level space. It is when you see people spreading out and moving through rooms, clustering up around doorways and moving in once a critical mass is reached, sticking more to cover or using more open and faster routes through rooms, and generally being able to navigate from one section of the level to another.
It can mean a lot of things, a room with good flow is one that players move through easily, they know where they want to go and can get there easily, I'd also say it's a good idea for a room to have efficient flow, where all the space put in by the designer is used, in some way. Unused space is wasted space, and should be stripped out to simplify the geometry, or the rest of the room should be change to encourage the use of that space. Obviously in NS you get specific space use, where roof areas are not used by most classes, but are critical to others, same with vents and things, but the same rules still apply, just bear in mind the specific requirements of some classes.
Elevators and overly complex door arrangements disrupt level flow because they artificially obstruct movement. An elevator might only fit five people, it has a fixed travel time, you can only enter or exit from one specific point, it alerts other players to its presence when in operation, and it is very, very easy to camp, and very, very difficult to reinforce.
While a doorway has a constant influx of new players ready to move through, and who can move through at any time, an elevator sends things through in discrete packets, which means that the fluidity of the level and gameplay is disrupted. This is a bad thing, because the players are not fighting the enemies, they are fighting the crappy level design.
It has a similar effect to, if you were to force marines to hang out outside a door, then periodically sound an alarm, display 'MARINE WAVE INCOMING' to the aliens, and then allow a certain number of marines through the door, then close it and tell the rest to wait 20 seconds while the ones in front try not to die.
That is what good level flow is designed to avoid.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2062840:date=Jan 18 2013, 01:32 PM:name=nsguy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nsguy @ Jan 18 2013, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it matter? There are many examples of things that have been done poorly in the past and better in the present.
Bind scrollwheel to cycle through the different floors and I see no difficulties for the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> XCOMM:EU does something like this, but it only sort of works. I frequently found myself sending my squad members to the wrong level because of the wonkiness of the system.
<!--quoteo(post=2062563:date=Jan 18 2013, 05:38 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 18 2013, 05:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole point is that weldables tend to be marine-biased. That doesn't mean that strategy or tactics aren't affected. Anyway, I think I made a huge mistake engaging with you so I'm out!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True to a point but if you compare vents in NS1 to NS2 a majority of vents in NS2 are at marine eye level and allow marines to use them as well. NS1 vents where mainly used for aliens to get around the map and ambush marines. Marines typically needed jetpacks or 2 other marines to crouch jump on each other to access these same vents. Marines needed to weld certain vents to prevent aliens the easy access to strategic locations. Also welding open certain passage ways allowed easier access for marines to strike certain points of the map with out having to deal with particular choke points. This added a ton of strategic depth to the NS series which is non existent now.
Like I pointed out earlier out of 5 Tech points you might only spawn at 2 of them and certain maps like docking marines always spawn at terminal. So you don't even need to scout you just run to east wing/courtyard every match. Either faction should be allowed to spawn at any of the tech points available to create more uncertainty in the matches. This is also a main cause for them removing certain extractor points on the map due to UWE making a limited assumption it gave one side a resource advantage due to the limited spawn locations.
<!--quoteo(post=2062796:date=Jan 19 2013, 07:12 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 19 2013, 07:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well it's great if you like elevators so much that not having them spoils your fun, but seems the majority of us did not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
any stats to back this up? or are you saying that you represent the majority?
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I actually liked elevators. They were a gamble just as everything else.
Worth it to use, or go around? Possible ambush? Keep open/down to flee faster, or closed to have a warning sound?
Its not THAT bad if some rooms are designed to break flow, as long as it breaks it for both sides. That way you can adjust tactics and strategy to use that natural choke point. Added benefit is that it takes fights away from tech rooms and into 'normal' rooms, spreading the possible battle locations more, make matches more unique.
Comments
*tries to think of some more*
BTW
While it's nice that you have mustered an opinion that is different to that of the OP, there's no reason to rage about it until people bow before the might of your point of view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please. Maybe if you did your job, you would note that, at the start of the thread, my posts were nothing but civil and constructive. However after consistent abuse I'm afraid I could not resist the temptation to sink to the same level. But that's ok, I know the mods just skim through anyway. Maybe go back to randomly choosing which threads you want to lock today?
As for your somewhat related comment:
Elevators have once again already been covered in this thread. They, along with many other platforms, were known flow breakers and were just their for atmosphere in NS1, rather that actual gameplay. This demonstrated by their large scale removal from NS1 maps as the game matured.
Water? Really? You must be joking. Name a single worthwhile body of water in NS1, and then tell me what made it worthwhile.
Weldables are debateable. I tell you what, I will compromise with you on this one. I will give you weldables as something worthwhile that NS2 could benefit from. On the other hand, it must be said that NS1 never managed to implement weldables in an effective and strategic way.
really? welding vents in double in ns_veil? welding vents in double in ns_tanith? Do you know why ur copping so much abuse? Because you keep posting lies.
Reread what I wrote.
Effective <b>and strategic</b>. What is so strategic about paying the +-10 res to prevent your base in double from being instantly annihilated? I'm not saying it wasn't effective. Hell, when marines pitched up in an area, rest assured, every weldable within 100m was going to get hit, but that's the problem. no choice, no pros and cons, no strategy. Weld the vent weld the door weld the wall. Weld everything because weldable.
To be honest, the unweldable vents in double res on ns2_veil introduce far more strategy. When you start the game you have two options. Either you have jetpacks and or grenade launchers by the 6-7th minute, or you don't bother taking double because you will lose it to bile bomb. That actually has an effect on the game unlike paying a measly 10 resources to undertake a no brainer.
is that a trick question?
Stating that you can think of many examples, and then stating none, is typically quite indicative of something. Off hand I can think of a single weld point in the whole of NS1 that required some thought. Not a large amount of though, but at least it was something. I'll see if we come up with the same, single example.
[attachment=36193:NS1vNS2.jpg]
Anyway, we plan on pushing against and hopefully moving beyond some of the existing restrictions with our future maps, and would encourage community mappers to do the same.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the insight, Cory!
I absolutely 'get' what you've done, and I for one like it. I can understand some of the arguments against this approach, but I don't agree with the assertion that these can't be circumvented by level designers. One of NS1's strengths was a broad selection of maps and a strong mapping community. I'm very eager to see what these folks make of NS2 in the coming months, and that screenshot looks very tantalising - can't wait to play on Descent!
Much of the reason this thread has fallen foul of some less savoury posts (perhaps including my own if I'm honest), is the rather negative tone of the initial views, in multiple posts from several people. I'm really glad to have seen some positive, forward thinking posts that promote creativity. That was one of the NS1 community's most impressive attributes, and long may it continue!!
Elevators have once again already been covered in this thread. They, along with many other platforms, were known flow breakers and were just their for atmosphere in NS1, rather that actual gameplay. This demonstrated by their large scale removal from NS1 maps as the game matured.
Water? Really? You must be joking. Name a single worthwhile body of water in NS1, and then tell me what made it worthwhile.
Weldables are debateable. I tell you what, I will compromise with you on this one. I will give you weldables as something worthwhile that NS2 could benefit from. On the other hand, it must be said that NS1 never managed to implement weldables in an effective and strategic way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played a quite a few maps in many different games using water in ways that I found really usefull and fun.
Most often it is used as a form of elevator, although often stairs can be used instead (unless its to block heavier units from elevating at that point). But I also seen it well-used in games with fall damage to make areas where falling is ok (most notably surf_ maps in cs), and as a safety net in areas which need skill to traverse, and if you fail, rather than killing you, they make you quite vulnerable while you travel to an exit-point.
Another use for it is a form of moat. You generally move slower while in water, and often with less precision, making it harder to dodge, and with an overlay, also harder to aim.
For those who says they want water for their maps, why not try out the water mod on workshop?
On the note of weldables and other events changing the map in various ways, this was most often done using hammers input/outputs system iirc. Shouldnt be too hard to code such a mapping entity for spark if you use the IOFramework mod on workshop.
Did you really only read the first two words of that sentence? I just said I watched a video.
Selectively quoting portions of sentences doesn't actually allow you to retroactively alter my points.
<!--quoteo(post=2062547:date=Jan 18 2013, 11:01 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reread what I wrote.
Effective <b>and strategic</b>. What is so strategic about paying the +-10 res to prevent your base in double from being instantly annihilated? I'm not saying it wasn't effective. Hell, when marines pitched up in an area, rest assured, every weldable within 100m was going to get hit, but that's the problem. no choice, no pros and cons, no strategy. Weld the vent weld the door weld the wall. Weld everything because weldable.
To be honest, the unweldable vents in double res on ns2_veil introduce far more strategy. When you start the game you have two options. Either you have jetpacks and or grenade launchers by the 6-7th minute, or you don't bother taking double because you will lose it to bile bomb. That actually has an effect on the game unlike paying a measly 10 resources to undertake a no brainer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kinda this. Weldables are more or less just busy work. Once you capture a place, spend a while welding everything in sight, end up better off.
It's like if the game introduced a lot of buttons you have to press to slightly increase resource income from a location. It's a mechanic, but it doesn't add much value. You're probably not going to prioritize welding over anything else because the value alone is not enough, and there's no reason not to do it afterwards because the benefit is permanent.
I think you could do the weldable concept much better with power nodes, have some map functions linked to the power nodes in addition to the lighting, that way marines do have a choice, do they try to build the power node first to make the room more secure and make it more in their favor, or do they try to clear it of aliens first? Do they build a sentry first or do they fix the power node to block off entrances? When aliens are attacking, do they kill the power node first to open more ways into the room or block marine entrances into the room, or do they take out the PG first to cut that route, or if there is no PG do they try to scout some of the more likely entrances to catch marines before they arrive.
Basically you could improve weldables by just making them destroyable in some way, that way it's a risk/reward thing and not a minor investment for permanent reward. There's no reason not to do something that will always pay off for the rest of the game, but there is a reason to prioritize one thing over another in the opening stages of room contention, and decide what to protect in the long run. Having it tied to something that is already of value means it may be a priority, and having it be automatic (as you do eventually need to fix the power node) after a while removes the busy work from it. It also includes aliens in the mix some more as they can choose to undo it, and it allows more variety in power mechanics from room to room. Some rooms might not be very important to power, some rooms might be moreso.
Ha, anyone else notice that in this paragraph you can replace welding with the words power node and cysts?
As far as water goes, you've all seen lava on refinery right? Well shouldn't be a big secret that water is basically the same thing except with a different texture. I don't think it will have actual fluid dynamics movement to it though and would instead be half-life style but it didn't matter then did it?
Since Cory already showed a picture of a new map, I think I can say that it truly is an amazing looking map. So from my point of view, the 'limitations' you all are talking about, aren't limitations, just your rose colored glasses getting in the way of you enjoying what is truly a fun and extremely enjoyable game. And that really is a pity.
Like the door in trams south tech points east side (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrXZwHGmYyQ" target="_blank">a few builds ago</a>)? The one that commanders almost always locked because it was 2 seconds traveltime for marines to reach its opposite side through the northern bigger ramp-entrance, while having it locked gave the commander a <b>much</b> more defendable base.
*tries to think of some more*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regarding water, it depends on if you are talking about water that you can be fully submerged in, or water that is shallow, to walk through. Shallow water can almost be done now, but Max is working on some refraction effects (to improve cloaking) and that will be able to be used to get a nice water look. Beyond that there are some additional things, like reflection (in the works) , fresnals, caustics which all make it look better. Then you add some splash particle effects (easy) when walking around in the water, and good to go.
Water that you can actually be submerged in, is a little more complicated, but also very debatable how well that fits in with NS2 gameplay. But with some clever mapping/FX/lighting, and some additional modding, something can probably be made to work.
Weldables is something we've always talked about adding, and was pretty much working. But from a design standpoint there were many issues with welding of doors, and we decided we wanted to do something a little more dynamic, versatile, and interesting for welding, and have plans to pursue that for the big content update after this next one.
Triggerable elements are definitely on the list, and something we want to do a lot more of on maps in the future. Brian has already added the basics for this (an example is using the jukebox in the Onos bar to change the track) and with a little more work we'll be able to use this for a whole variety of things -- opening/closing large loading doors, triggering something to collapse, or activate an animated prop, or turn off a large fan to open up a route through a fan shaft or something. We eventually would like to have some maps that are have some very important triggerable events that could really impact gameplay, creating kind of a different game mode if you play on those maps. So, this could be anything...from being able to seal off a room and flood it with water/lava, open up an airlock and suck players out into space, turn off the gravity on a space ship so suddenly everyone is floating around :P Who knows, there are a lot of endless possibilites that will hopefully be explored by both UWE and modders in the future.
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea was already explored in ns1 by custom mappers. I don't know if people still remember co_airlock? Definitely looking forward to this in future content updates.
I think it's a shame that we will never see something like this, especially given that new commanders can't even cope with placing cysts on and below platforms of existing maps.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126464" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=126464</a>
the argument has been made "They disrupted flow and were complained about". LOL! Oh no, you have to wait 5-10 seconds for an elevator to move so you can continue walking. I guess with the ADHD riddled brains these days 5-10 seconds of waiting is simply too much.
Nevermind that clever mapping could make elevators a useful slow-down mechanism to balance distances between tech points/rt rooms.
On another note, I'm noticing some general elitism from people who play "competatively". Mainly, that casual/public gamers are scum of the earth. I don't mind if you take it to the next level, but your elitism is pretty rotten.
The devs will do what they want in the end anyways, I'm just saying I thoroughly enjoyed elevators in NS1.
I'm sorry if you don't want elevators in, because I find the bunnyhopping quake style gameplay to be idiotic which is what you want when you say elevators "disrupt flow of the game".
the argument has been made "They disrupted flow and were complained about". LOL! Oh no, you have to wait 5-10 seconds for an elevator to move so you can continue walking. I guess with the ADHD riddled brains these days 5-10 seconds of waiting is simply too much.
Nevermind that clever mapping could make elevators a useful slow-down mechanism to balance distances between tech points/rt rooms.
On another note, I'm noticing some general elitism from people who play "competatively". Mainly, that casual/public gamers are scum of the earth. I don't mind if you take it to the next level, but your elitism is pretty rotten.
The devs will do what they want in the end anyways, I'm just saying I thoroughly enjoyed elevators in NS1.
I'm sorry if you don't want elevators in, because I find the bunnyhopping quake style gameplay to be idiotic which is what you want when you say elevators "disrupt flow of the game".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm... Elevators equals no bunny hopping is the statement you're trying to make...
<img src="http://ferringtonpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Mitt-Romney-Sucks-Here’s-Why-Photo-by-2bp.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Well it's great if you like elevators so much that not having them spoils your fun, but seems the majority of us did not. I would in fact avoid them 99% of the time if they existed. Also going to point out quake had elevators, as did half-life, and NS1... Still bunny hopping.
I think it's a shame that we will never see something like this, especially given that new commanders can't even cope with placing cysts on and below platforms of existing maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you name any RTS in which this has ever been done effectively? I guess Metal Fatigue tried it out, but honestly it didn't work very well in my opinion.
Basically my point is that its all well and good to want to see certain cool mechanics in a game, but thinking that "its a shame" that we will may not see something that has never been done before in any game before this one, is a little over the top.
Does it matter? There are many examples of things that have been done poorly in the past and better in the present.
Bind scrollwheel to cycle through the different floors and I see no difficulties for the commander.
That isn't what flow means.
Level flow describes the fluid motion of players through the level space. It is when you see people spreading out and moving through rooms, clustering up around doorways and moving in once a critical mass is reached, sticking more to cover or using more open and faster routes through rooms, and generally being able to navigate from one section of the level to another.
It can mean a lot of things, a room with good flow is one that players move through easily, they know where they want to go and can get there easily, I'd also say it's a good idea for a room to have efficient flow, where all the space put in by the designer is used, in some way. Unused space is wasted space, and should be stripped out to simplify the geometry, or the rest of the room should be change to encourage the use of that space. Obviously in NS you get specific space use, where roof areas are not used by most classes, but are critical to others, same with vents and things, but the same rules still apply, just bear in mind the specific requirements of some classes.
Elevators and overly complex door arrangements disrupt level flow because they artificially obstruct movement. An elevator might only fit five people, it has a fixed travel time, you can only enter or exit from one specific point, it alerts other players to its presence when in operation, and it is very, very easy to camp, and very, very difficult to reinforce.
While a doorway has a constant influx of new players ready to move through, and who can move through at any time, an elevator sends things through in discrete packets, which means that the fluidity of the level and gameplay is disrupted. This is a bad thing, because the players are not fighting the enemies, they are fighting the crappy level design.
It has a similar effect to, if you were to force marines to hang out outside a door, then periodically sound an alarm, display 'MARINE WAVE INCOMING' to the aliens, and then allow a certain number of marines through the door, then close it and tell the rest to wait 20 seconds while the ones in front try not to die.
That is what good level flow is designed to avoid.
Bind scrollwheel to cycle through the different floors and I see no difficulties for the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
XCOMM:EU does something like this, but it only sort of works. I frequently found myself sending my squad members to the wrong level because of the wonkiness of the system.
True to a point but if you compare vents in NS1 to NS2 a majority of vents in NS2 are at marine eye level and allow marines to use them as well. NS1 vents where mainly used for aliens to get around the map and ambush marines. Marines typically needed jetpacks or 2 other marines to crouch jump on each other to access these same vents. Marines needed to weld certain vents to prevent aliens the easy access to strategic locations. Also welding open certain passage ways allowed easier access for marines to strike certain points of the map with out having to deal with particular choke points. This added a ton of strategic depth to the NS series which is non existent now.
Like I pointed out earlier out of 5 Tech points you might only spawn at 2 of them and certain maps like docking marines always spawn at terminal. So you don't even need to scout you just run to east wing/courtyard every match. Either faction should be allowed to spawn at any of the tech points available to create more uncertainty in the matches. This is also a main cause for them removing certain extractor points on the map due to UWE making a limited assumption it gave one side a resource advantage due to the limited spawn locations.
big problem is the sight range though..I guess it's that low due to performance issues.
greetings
any stats to back this up? or are you saying that you represent the majority?
Worth it to use, or go around? Possible ambush? Keep open/down to flee faster, or closed to have a warning sound?
Its not THAT bad if some rooms are designed to break flow, as long as it breaks it for both sides. That way you can adjust tactics and strategy to use that natural choke point.
Added benefit is that it takes fights away from tech rooms and into 'normal' rooms, spreading the possible battle locations more, make matches more unique.