<!--quoteo(post=2062964:date=Jan 18 2013, 05:03 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 18 2013, 05:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->any stats to back this up? or are you saying that you represent the majority?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright clearly you know everything, keep hating the game and I'm gonna go play and have fun.
<!--quoteo(post=2063013:date=Jan 19 2013, 02:23 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 19 2013, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alright clearly you know everything, keep hating the game and I'm gonna go play and have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you keep pulling stats out of your a** and when asked to back it up this is your response?
<!--quoteo(post=2062384:date=Jan 18 2013, 01:43 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 18 2013, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of the OPs points are valid, but the way in which they are put forth is to imply that NS2 maps are fundamentally not as good, nor can ever be as good as NS1 maps because of those "restrictions".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's not true, Cory. I never implied that, it was those drones who kept falsely accusing of bs. The purpose of this thread is to address all the mapping limitation that currently exist in NS2. Hopefully you guys would solve these problems in future patches. The intention of this thread was never to "diss" NS2 maps.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The hallway based layouts of NS1 were very confusing for new players. We chose to pursue a room based approach to NS2. There is of course still hallways meant to space the rooms apart, but rather then the -hallway, hallway, slightly opened up hallway section, hallway, room - we preferred a general -room, hallway, room, hallway approach, with each room ideally having a distinctive landmark theme to it, to make the areas of the map visually distinctive. This of course varies a great deal, with a lot of exceptions, but it was the general approach we took.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is the problem though. Every map feels the same! Do people even care about map changes these days?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An Onos moving up a ladder is just plain silly, and is hard to get away with in this day and age.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
any more silly than marines climbing ladders without using their arms and still being able to shoot?
This can be easily solved with a "use" interaction. Let onos walk up to the ladder, press E to interact, and the onos performs a scripted "wall climbing" move similar to the kathoga in the movie "The Relic" seen in this <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SU_ZshgGro#t=01m34s" target="_blank">clip</a>. This is widely used in today's FPS. A good example would be "jumping over obstacles" in Call of Duty.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, tech points restrict hives to be on the same level, but that is for the best. For <u>one thing it is a requirement for the addition of the alien commander</u>, but for another it puts the hive front and center, making it much more visible and important. Many of those screenshot examples frankly looked quite silly. <u>A large high ceiling room with an insignificant and small looking hive dangling from it, does not convey an impression of importance, and looks like an afterthought.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is completely false and a huge smack in the face to those ppl who spent countless hours working on those gorgeous NS1 maps. What is the first thing that catches your attention when you walk into a large dining hall or an atrium? That's right, the <a href="https://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=chandelier&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41248874,d.dGY&biw=2133&bih=1061&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=VnH7ULWzGubKmQWT7YGoCQ#um=1&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=chandelier+hall&oq=chandelier+hall&gs_l=img.3..0i24l2.1694.1966.8.2532.3.3.0.0.0.0.158.203.2j1.3.0...0.0...1c.1.Sw2j8PVoeZo&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=91a26d86d7e5d8fc&biw=2133&bih=1061" target="_blank">chandelier</a>! This is an architecture that's been proven for centuries: a large object that dangles from the ceiling in a large room is the first thing to catch people's attention.
Regarding alien commander not being able to enter the hive. Back in NS1 days gorge can teleport from hive to hive simply by standing underneath the hive, aim its camera at it and press E. The elevation of the hive was irrelevant. This proves that your argument is completely invalid.
<!--quoteo(post=2063054:date=Jan 19 2013, 05:36 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 19 2013, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Had things to say, not interested anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good, you should spend more hours on your "play testing". I found more bugs in refinery, mineshaft and docking in less than 70 hours of play times. I wonder why those bugs didn't get ironed out during beta.
<!--quoteo(post=2063542:date=Jan 19 2013, 09:37 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 19 2013, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good, you should spend more hours on your "play testing". I found more bugs in refinery, mineshaft and docking in less than 70 hours of play times. I wonder why those bugs didn't get ironed out during beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wasn't a play tester then so couldn't tell you.
<!--quoteo(post=2060006:date=Jan 13 2013, 05:16 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 05:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the engine doesn't allow that because cysts share the same flat way-points as the macs/arcs/drifters, for them to go up or down, there has to be a ramp. In other words, you can't cyst off a balcony, even if it's just 1 meter off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back in the beta gorges could put cysts on walls and ceilings and they would connect no problem and could even serve as links in chains with no cysts on the ground. Or is that not what you meant?
<!--quoteo(post=2059978:date=Jan 13 2013, 01:28 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->NS2 maps have to be "wheelchair" friendly<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> What does that mean? Simple: cysts, macs, arcs and drifters can only travel on X and Y axis, there's no Z. How does that affect map design? Well, map design such as <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//3.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//6.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> won't happen in NS2 unless UWE change this core mechanic (I seriously doubt they'd have the time/resource to do this).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then how do they get onto the ceiling where one would often see them during their early beta days? Maybe they could walk up walls like skulks?
<!--quoteo(post=2062847:date=Jan 18 2013, 04:45 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 18 2013, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Elevators and overly complex door arrangements disrupt level flow because they artificially obstruct movement. An elevator might only fit five people, it has a fixed travel time, you can only enter or exit from one specific point, it alerts other players to its presence when in operation, and it is very, very easy to camp, and very, very difficult to reinforce.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This reasoning can very easily extended to hallways, all kinds of doors and many things besides until the map is reduced to a featureless plain. None of these things I think are intrinsically bad, only in excess. A single elevator is hardly going to ruin the flow of the entire map. But perhaps you think that all the core maps that featured elevators and operable doors in NS1 had poor flow?
Things like elevator is what made NS1 maps interesting. Some had elevators, some didn't; Some had weldables, some didn't; some were multi-layer'd, some weren't; some had major elevation, some didn't; some were big enough to accommodate 12v12, some were small enough for 6v6.
What about ns2 maps? They are all the same with mere different skins.
<!--quoteo(post=2063605:date=Jan 20 2013, 04:42 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 20 2013, 04:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Things like elevator is what made NS1 maps interesting. Some had elevators, some didn't; Some had weldables, some didn't; some were multi-layer'd, some weren't; some had major elevation, some didn't; some were big enough to accommodate 12v12, some were small enough for 6v6.
What about ns2 maps? They are all the same with mere different skins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... apart from the new map that Cory teased us with, and all the community maps (yet to appear, but the need is there for sure).
<!--quoteo(post=2063606:date=Jan 20 2013, 10:48 AM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 20 2013, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... apart from the new map that Cory teased us with, and all the community maps (yet to appear, but the need is there for sure).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but that's it. "<i>Yet to appear</i>". When the claim of the OP is that the current official maps feel rather similiar then I am in complete agreement. They are great but then again if compared they do not feel very distinctive. I can see that the room-hallway-room approach has its meaning but currently, the maps tend to amazame me less than in ye days of NS1 where <i>some</i> maps were in fact confusing, irritating with a lots of niches, corners, different levels and such. It might be confusing for new players but then again, let's the honest: If you cannot get the map in your hand then NS is just not your game. The game is very complex, confusing and hard to grasp for a long when where you're new to it. The map layout is just a little piece which adds to it but I guess, that's it. There a people though, who've spend hours with this game already and just love to get something new, less straight-forward.
I guess it is just a matter of time and I love to see the new upcoming community maps as I hope, and I think, they will bring back some of the confusing NS1 mapping I used to enjoy. I agree that it's probably just a question of time. We'll have to see whether NS2 actually limits the map design. I would not tend to any side so far as the current maps were designed with a certain layout in mind which does not <i>intend</i> to include complex structures as we're used to see from NS1. I'll wait until the first bunch of community maps is out to see whether they feel as similiar as the offical maps do. Actually, I just want to things:
1) hallway-hallway-hallway I loved the immersion of NS1 and a big part of that was that you simply spend a bit of time, especially as a marine, crawling through a space station or whatsoever. 2) bigger-more complex-bigger NS2 feel very small compared to the maps in NS1 and less playful. If the upcoming community maps can fill that gap with bigger and even confusing maps I'm glad.
I guess all that can be done easily in NS2 just as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2062976:date=Jan 18 2013, 08:32 PM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DC_Darkling @ Jan 18 2013, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually liked elevators. They were a gamble just as everything else.
Worth it to use, or go around? Possible ambush? Keep open/down to flee faster, or closed to have a warning sound?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
totally agree, i thought elevators brought a special gameplay element to the game as well.
defending marine start and you hear the elevator going down you thought "to the elevator!" only to find it was bait by one skulk as the rest of the alien team charged in from an alternate route.
i'm not saying a tech point should have one elevator and one other normal entrance, but throw the elevator in as a third entrance and now you can have some fun.
<!--quoteo(post=2062384:date=Jan 18 2013, 10:43 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 18 2013, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Level over level is problematic for commander view and should be limited in the amount and extents to which it occurs. We do not want to add a zoom and camera rotation for the commander as that just makes the role of commander far more complicated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sorry, gotta disagree. i don't think it makes the role of commander more complicated for players to have camera zoom and rotation. we're talking fps/rts hybrid here, so i think it's actually better to have camera zoom and rotation for the commander, with or without level over level map design. if anything, camera rotation and zoom will let commanders perform better due to the flexibility in view angles and such.
it's not something that everybody will use of course, but it doesn't make the game any more complicated than it already is. it's just there if commanders want to use it, and if they don't, they don't lose anything (other than maybe a slight degradation in eyesight from all that squinting).
i might have misunderstood though. maybe what you meant was that it's complicated to implement as a feature from a development standpoint, which in that case i'll have to agree. i can already foresee some problems implementing the camera zoom and rotation, like commanders dropping structures on areas previously impossible (glitch, exploit, etc) and zoom not having the standard mousewheel bind to go along with it. it'll certainly open up a new bag of problems.
<!--quoteo(post=2062384:date=Jan 18 2013, 10:43 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 18 2013, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Large rooms are problematic for gameplay. It was the case in NS1, and remains the case in NS2. Range versus melee combat really starts to break down, <b>commander mode view ends up being so high in the air that it becomes difficult to adequately see players and structures and equipment on the ground</b>, and so much detail and cover has to be added to break up the space that it becomes quite a time consuming challenge to put together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
solved using camera zoom.
ps. speaking of mousewheel bind, when is it ever going to come out?
<!--quoteo(post=2064119:date=Jan 21 2013, 12:05 PM:name=cream)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cream @ Jan 21 2013, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sorry, gotta disagree. i don't think it makes the role of commander more complicated for players to have camera zoom and rotation. we're talking fps/rts hybrid here, so i think it's actually better to have camera zoom and rotation for the commander, with or without level over level map design. if anything, camera rotation and zoom will let commanders perform better due to the flexibility in view angles and such.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you ever play homeworld? Its control and view mechanisms were too complicated. Plain and simple. Too obscure and too difficult to orient in. In fact it was the primary reason for it performing so badly, because it was borderline unusable. Luckily the game was pretty slow paced and had little to no micro.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->No need for that. -Align<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Homeworld allowed free camera movement in 3D thats a completly different kettle of fish.
<!--quoteo(post=2064144:date=Jan 21 2013, 12:52 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Jan 21 2013, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Homeworld allowed free camera movement in 3D thats a completly different kettle of fish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is simply a case where more control resulted in drastically increased complications. To assume that adding something as in depth as zooming and rotating in a cramped, inherently first person environment, would not increase complexity is foolish.
This of course assumes that the commander will actually need to utilise these new camera controls to perform tasks. If this is not the case, then the extra control is wholly unnecessary.
<!--quoteo(post=2064135:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:30 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 21 2013, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you ever play homeworld? Its control and view mechanisms were too complicated. Plain and simple. Too obscure and too difficult to orient in. In fact it was the primary reason for it performing so badly, because it was borderline unusable. Luckily the game was pretty slow paced and had little to no micro.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2064151:date=Jan 21 2013, 07:15 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 21 2013, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is simply a case where more control resulted in drastically increased complications. To assume that adding something as in depth as zooming and rotating in a cramped, inherently first person environment, would not increase complexity is foolish.
This of course assumes that the commander will actually need to utilise these new camera controls to perform tasks. If this is not the case, then the extra control is wholly unnecessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
disregarding accusations of you being a troll, no, i have not played homeworld and so i have no idea what you're talking about. care to explain further?
i agree there may be cases where more control = unnecessary complexity. but my point here is that the free camera control doesn't really make comming more complicated in any way. there's no need to turn your camera around or zoom in and out to drop medkits/ammo packs, but it certainly improves your accuracy if you do have some control over your viewing angle through the use of simple ctrl + left / right to rotate and mousewheel to zoom in or out. if it also solves some mapping problems, such as the increased viewing height in large rooms or level over level map design, then all the better.
^ note that i'm excluding problems from a development standpoint which i mentioned in my previous post. also, minimaps.
so in summary, my point is that more viewing angles (camera zoom & rotation) as comm does not make comming even more complicated (to counter cory's argument if he meant it from a player's standpoint), but provides a small advantage for people who make use of them (just because they can and feel more comfortable with it from playing all the rts with 360 dynamic camera controlsâ„¢). also solves some mapping restrictions.
your point, i believe, is that more viewing angles increases complexity (for the commander? don't see how. you'd need to explain further). also not adding anything that isn't necessary, which i actually agree with, but not in this context.
ps. don't call other people foolish or claim that other people are always assuming something. this is why people think you're a troll. more explanation, less superficial stuff.
The camera movement of homeworld was confusing because you were allowed to rotate the view in all directions, imagine commanding in free spectate mode. Obviously, in a game like ns2, the top down view is more than sufficient and rotation would be only meaningful around the Y axis as an so many other strategy games which do not have these homeworld issues either. Maybe you seriously come up with these wrong arguments with good intentions, it sounds just too ridiculous to me...
<!--quoteo(post=2064748:date=Jan 22 2013, 12:18 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Jan 22 2013, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The camera movement of homeworld was confusing because you were allowed to rotate the view in all directions, imagine commanding in free spectate mode. Obviously, in a game like ns2, the top down view is more than sufficient and rotation would be only meaningful around the Y axis as an so many other strategy games which do not have these homeworld issues either. Maybe you seriously come up with these wrong arguments with good intentions, it sounds just too ridiculous to me...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It sounds ridiculous because the only voice you hear is your own.
<!--quoteo(post=2064752:date=Jan 22 2013, 09:29 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 22 2013, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds ridiculous because the only voice you hear is your own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2064765:date=Jan 22 2013, 10:05 PM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Jan 22 2013, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->elevators are fun. or you think walking up 100 floors with the stairs is more interesting?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
do not try to explain logic to strofix, he might call the admins on you.
<!--quoteo(post=2064765:date=Jan 22 2013, 01:05 PM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Jan 22 2013, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->elevators are fun. or you think walking up 100 floors with the stairs is more interesting?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering that elevators are rarely if ever placed in locations that see a lot of combat, I guess I would prefer which ever method is faster, and whichever I have the most control over.
elevators are like mobile walls, "u can but u cant" u can jump and kill but u can't excape, this creates tension in the game when dbl are lamed in ns_origin, in a pub server there are 4 ways to attacking: sg and jump, cleaning with gls, besiege ( with real siege not the new dement slow robots ), from the corridors but exposed at fades and lerks.
this is what i call variation of play, and this give at the commander a plus, where a good commander can made difference. now is all flat, maps and the gameplay also
And why would you not place elevators in locations that see a lot of action, say marine start on hera? Since climing ladders is very realistic but terrible in terms of speed and control an elevator might actually be the best way to go upwards.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited January 2013
I love elevators in ns1. The most believable settings happen when there are intractable entities in a game world, other than that it's just an empty map with some background noise.
Nostalgia is great eh? but this is NS2 - I would bet that if it was the same as NS1 but a bit more shiny you would complain too. No one can win when making sequels or updates and the figures above prove that for a huge game like Counter-Strike.
So... anyone for a night of NS1?, I know I would love one with some of the community. :) xx
Comments
Alright clearly you know everything, keep hating the game and I'm gonna go play and have fun.
you keep pulling stats out of your a** and when asked to back it up this is your response?
that's not true, Cory. I never implied that, it was those drones who kept falsely accusing of bs. The purpose of this thread is to address all the mapping limitation that currently exist in NS2. Hopefully you guys would solve these problems in future patches. The intention of this thread was never to "diss" NS2 maps.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The hallway based layouts of NS1 were very confusing for new players. We chose to pursue a room based approach to NS2. There is of course still hallways meant to space the rooms apart, but rather then the -hallway, hallway, slightly opened up hallway section, hallway, room - we preferred a general -room, hallway, room, hallway approach, with each room ideally having a distinctive landmark theme to it, to make the areas of the map visually distinctive. This of course varies a great deal, with a lot of exceptions, but it was the general approach we took.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is the problem though. Every map feels the same! Do people even care about map changes these days?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An Onos moving up a ladder is just plain silly, and is hard to get away with in this day and age.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
any more silly than marines climbing ladders without using their arms and still being able to shoot?
This can be easily solved with a "use" interaction. Let onos walk up to the ladder, press E to interact, and the onos performs a scripted "wall climbing" move similar to the kathoga in the movie "The Relic" seen in this <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SU_ZshgGro#t=01m34s" target="_blank">clip</a>. This is widely used in today's FPS. A good example would be "jumping over obstacles" in Call of Duty.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, tech points restrict hives to be on the same level, but that is for the best. For <u>one thing it is a requirement for the addition of the alien commander</u>, but for another it puts the hive front and center, making it much more visible and important. Many of those screenshot examples frankly looked quite silly. <u>A large high ceiling room with an insignificant and small looking hive dangling from it, does not convey an impression of importance, and looks like an afterthought.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is completely false and a huge smack in the face to those ppl who spent countless hours working on those gorgeous NS1 maps. What is the first thing that catches your attention when you walk into a large dining hall or an atrium? That's right, the <a href="https://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=chandelier&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41248874,d.dGY&biw=2133&bih=1061&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=VnH7ULWzGubKmQWT7YGoCQ#um=1&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=chandelier+hall&oq=chandelier+hall&gs_l=img.3..0i24l2.1694.1966.8.2532.3.3.0.0.0.0.158.203.2j1.3.0...0.0...1c.1.Sw2j8PVoeZo&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=91a26d86d7e5d8fc&biw=2133&bih=1061" target="_blank">chandelier</a>! This is an architecture that's been proven for centuries: a large object that dangles from the ceiling in a large room is the first thing to catch people's attention.
Regarding alien commander not being able to enter the hive. Back in NS1 days gorge can teleport from hive to hive simply by standing underneath the hive, aim its camera at it and press E. The elevation of the hive was irrelevant. This proves that your argument is completely invalid.
Good, you should spend more hours on your "play testing". I found more bugs in refinery, mineshaft and docking in less than 70 hours of play times. I wonder why those bugs didn't get ironed out during beta.
Wasn't a play tester then so couldn't tell you.
Back in the beta gorges could put cysts on walls and ceilings and they would connect no problem and could even serve as links in chains with no cysts on the ground. Or is that not what you meant?
<!--quoteo(post=2059978:date=Jan 13 2013, 01:28 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->NS2 maps have to be "wheelchair" friendly<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
What does that mean? Simple: cysts, macs, arcs and drifters can only travel on X and Y axis, there's no Z. How does that affect map design? Well, map design such as <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//3.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//6.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> won't happen in NS2 unless UWE change this core mechanic (I seriously doubt they'd have the time/resource to do this).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then how do they get onto the ceiling where one would often see them during their early beta days? Maybe they could walk up walls like skulks?
<!--quoteo(post=2062847:date=Jan 18 2013, 04:45 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 18 2013, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Elevators and overly complex door arrangements disrupt level flow because they artificially obstruct movement. An elevator might only fit five people, it has a fixed travel time, you can only enter or exit from one specific point, it alerts other players to its presence when in operation, and it is very, very easy to camp, and very, very difficult to reinforce.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This reasoning can very easily extended to hallways, all kinds of doors and many things besides until the map is reduced to a featureless plain. None of these things I think are intrinsically bad, only in excess. A single elevator is hardly going to ruin the flow of the entire map. But perhaps you think that all the core maps that featured elevators and operable doors in NS1 had poor flow?
What about ns2 maps? They are all the same with mere different skins.
What about ns2 maps? They are all the same with mere different skins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... apart from the new map that Cory teased us with, and all the community maps (yet to appear, but the need is there for sure).
Yeah, but that's it. "<i>Yet to appear</i>". When the claim of the OP is that the current official maps feel rather similiar then I am in complete agreement. They are great but then again if compared they do not feel very distinctive. I can see that the room-hallway-room approach has its meaning but currently, the maps tend to amazame me less than in ye days of NS1 where <i>some</i> maps were in fact confusing, irritating with a lots of niches, corners, different levels and such. It might be confusing for new players but then again, let's the honest: If you cannot get the map in your hand then NS is just not your game. The game is very complex, confusing and hard to grasp for a long when where you're new to it. The map layout is just a little piece which adds to it but I guess, that's it. There a people though, who've spend hours with this game already and just love to get something new, less straight-forward.
I guess it is just a matter of time and I love to see the new upcoming community maps as I hope, and I think, they will bring back some of the confusing NS1 mapping I used to enjoy. I agree that it's probably just a question of time. We'll have to see whether NS2 actually limits the map design. I would not tend to any side so far as the current maps were designed with a certain layout in mind which does not <i>intend</i> to include complex structures as we're used to see from NS1. I'll wait until the first bunch of community maps is out to see whether they feel as similiar as the offical maps do. Actually, I just want to things:
1) hallway-hallway-hallway
I loved the immersion of NS1 and a big part of that was that you simply spend a bit of time, especially as a marine, crawling through a space station or whatsoever.
2) bigger-more complex-bigger
NS2 feel very small compared to the maps in NS1 and less playful. If the upcoming community maps can fill that gap with bigger and even confusing maps I'm glad.
I guess all that can be done easily in NS2 just as well.
Worth it to use, or go around? Possible ambush? Keep open/down to flee faster, or closed to have a warning sound?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
totally agree, i thought elevators brought a special gameplay element to the game as well.
defending marine start and you hear the elevator going down you thought "to the elevator!" only to find it was bait by one skulk as the rest of the alien team charged in from an alternate route.
i'm not saying a tech point should have one elevator and one other normal entrance, but throw the elevator in as a third entrance and now you can have some fun.
sorry, gotta disagree. i don't think it makes the role of commander more complicated for players to have camera zoom and rotation. we're talking fps/rts hybrid here, so i think it's actually better to have camera zoom and rotation for the commander, with or without level over level map design. if anything, camera rotation and zoom will let commanders perform better due to the flexibility in view angles and such.
it's not something that everybody will use of course, but it doesn't make the game any more complicated than it already is. it's just there if commanders want to use it, and if they don't, they don't lose anything (other than maybe a slight degradation in eyesight from all that squinting).
i might have misunderstood though. maybe what you meant was that it's complicated to implement as a feature from a development standpoint, which in that case i'll have to agree. i can already foresee some problems implementing the camera zoom and rotation, like commanders dropping structures on areas previously impossible (glitch, exploit, etc) and zoom not having the standard mousewheel bind to go along with it. it'll certainly open up a new bag of problems.
<!--quoteo(post=2062384:date=Jan 18 2013, 10:43 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 18 2013, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Large rooms are problematic for gameplay. It was the case in NS1, and remains the case in NS2. Range versus melee combat really starts to break down, <b>commander mode view ends up being so high in the air that it becomes difficult to adequately see players and structures and equipment on the ground</b>, and so much detail and cover has to be added to break up the space that it becomes quite a time consuming challenge to put together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
solved using camera zoom.
ps. speaking of mousewheel bind, when is it ever going to come out?
Did you ever play homeworld?
Its control and view mechanisms were too complicated. Plain and simple. Too obscure and too difficult to orient in. In fact it was the primary reason for it performing so badly, because it was borderline unusable. Luckily the game was pretty slow paced and had little to no micro.
Homeworld allowed free camera movement in 3D thats a completly different kettle of fish.
It is simply a case where more control resulted in drastically increased complications. To assume that adding something as in depth as zooming and rotating in a cramped, inherently first person environment, would not increase complexity is foolish.
This of course assumes that the commander will actually need to utilise these new camera controls to perform tasks. If this is not the case, then the extra control is wholly unnecessary.
Its control and view mechanisms were too complicated. Plain and simple. Too obscure and too difficult to orient in. In fact it was the primary reason for it performing so badly, because it was borderline unusable. Luckily the game was pretty slow paced and had little to no micro.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2064151:date=Jan 21 2013, 07:15 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 21 2013, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is simply a case where more control resulted in drastically increased complications. To assume that adding something as in depth as zooming and rotating in a cramped, inherently first person environment, would not increase complexity is foolish.
This of course assumes that the commander will actually need to utilise these new camera controls to perform tasks. If this is not the case, then the extra control is wholly unnecessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
disregarding accusations of you being a troll, no, i have not played homeworld and so i have no idea what you're talking about. care to explain further?
i agree there may be cases where more control = unnecessary complexity. but my point here is that the free camera control doesn't really make comming more complicated in any way. there's no need to turn your camera around or zoom in and out to drop medkits/ammo packs, but it certainly improves your accuracy if you do have some control over your viewing angle through the use of simple ctrl + left / right to rotate and mousewheel to zoom in or out. if it also solves some mapping problems, such as the increased viewing height in large rooms or level over level map design, then all the better.
^ note that i'm excluding problems from a development standpoint which i mentioned in my previous post. also, minimaps.
so in summary, my point is that more viewing angles (camera zoom & rotation) as comm does not make comming even more complicated (to counter cory's argument if he meant it from a player's standpoint), but provides a small advantage for people who make use of them (just because they can and feel more comfortable with it from playing all the rts with 360 dynamic camera controlsâ„¢). also solves some mapping restrictions.
your point, i believe, is that more viewing angles increases complexity (for the commander? don't see how. you'd need to explain further). also not adding anything that isn't necessary, which i actually agree with, but not in this context.
ps. don't call other people foolish or claim that other people are always assuming something. this is why people think you're a troll. more explanation, less superficial stuff.
It sounds ridiculous because the only voice you hear is your own.
the irony...
Says the guy verbally abusing everyone who disagrees with him. Irony indeed.
do not try to explain logic to strofix, he might call the admins on you.
Considering that elevators are rarely if ever placed in locations that see a lot of combat, I guess I would prefer which ever method is faster, and whichever I have the most control over.
u can jump and kill but u can't excape, this creates tension in the game
when dbl are lamed in ns_origin, in a pub server there are 4 ways to attacking: sg and jump, cleaning with gls, besiege ( with real siege not the new dement slow robots ), from the corridors but exposed at fades and lerks.
this is what i call variation of play, and this give at the commander a plus, where a good commander can made difference.
now is all flat, maps and the gameplay also
Counter-Strike: Source - players 33,340
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive - players 17,867
Nostalgia is great eh? but this is NS2 - I would bet that if it was the same as NS1 but a bit more shiny you would complain too. No one can win when making sequels or updates and the figures above prove that for a huge game like Counter-Strike.
So... anyone for a night of NS1?, I know I would love one with some of the community. :) xx
Counter-Strike: Source - players 33,340
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive - players 17,867<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
please don't use sales to measure the quality of anything. Toyota vs Merc? Justin Bieber vs Kurt Cobain? Michael Bay vs anything?
Just saying people often prefer old versions of games over their successors. xx
source:- <a href="http://store.steampowered.com/stats/" target="_blank">http://store.steampowered.com/stats/</a>