Perhaps if I happen to be sitting on that wall in warehouse for some unexplained reason, and a marine comes in the far door and doesn't immediately shoot me off the wall, I could launch myself almost directly at him and go quite fast without appearing to move very much on his screen, presumably if he didn't shoot me at the start he might not shoot me now, and then I could commence the usual melee fight when I reach him.
I still don't see how that helps you actually navigate around an actual map with any improved degree of success, or help in combat at all. The better solution in that situation would be to 1. not sit on the wall there. 2. hide out of sight but watch the room. 3. use the roof space to get to a better position on any incoming marines, and 4. drop on their heads while they are distracted, preferably after they waste their clip on a building or something.
Chained walljumps are just... kinda incompatible with any other skulk tactic. Either you're a bit faster, very noisy, and very visible, or you are careful and can get to marines without them seeing you, the latter is far easier and equally if not more effective. Still not really seeing the point. It looks nice but it doesn't seem helpful. Actually doing it in combat seems very infeasible. If we follow the 'only attack lone marines' thing which itself is often not an option, you can kill them far easier by exploiting their limited line of sight. If you can manage to get close by dropping on them or bursting out of a small alcove, you have already achieved the end result of a perfect walljump sequence, without any real effort except for thinking 'where would the marine likely go? Is he in a hurry? He probably won't be expecting a skulk, so I can take advantage of that' and similar things.
...it works on every surface, there's no way to make this not work unless you're taking more than one jump on the ground. There's no decent player in the game that doesn't do this every time they move. It's never not useful no matter what you're doing.
Walljump can still be very useful for a short initial burst of speed if you can ambush, or setup your approach from a higher elevation (it's only real use atm). And ironically, it still makes you very fast, and very unpredictable.
But as Sewlek said, UWE is aware of it and it's fairly high on their to-do list.
<!--quoteo(post=2063174:date=Jan 19 2013, 04:18 PM:name=Canucck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canucck @ Jan 19 2013, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...it works on every surface, there's no way to make this not work unless you're taking more than one jump on the ground. There's no decent player in the game that doesn't do this every time they move. It's never not useful no matter what you're doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point is why should I bounce from wall to wall, zigzagging wildly across a hallway, using up my supposed speed boost by increasing the amount of distance I have to cover, when I can simply not charge the marine, and instead move slowly and quietly to a position I know the marine will open himself to ambush from, taking about the same amount of time. Or instead I could use the many small crawlspaces in maps to put lots of geometry between me and the marine, and re-emerge from a different angle, which works better in coordinated attacks because that way marines aren't shooting into a cloud of skulks and are not guaranteed to hit someone, even if they miss their target.
As a simple alternative to zig zagging slightly while moving along a corridor I can sort of see it? But it doesn't seem better, and you can't do it while hiding (and trying to be quiet so that marines don't hear lots of alien grunting and clicking as you bounce around) and it doesn't work in small spaces because you keep hitting floors/ceilings.
Those are the main two alternative skulk tactics and they're very effective, walljumping seems to just be an evolution of the very basic skulk approach of 'run at enemy, try not to get hit' which has a place, but is already not very difficult to do, and still not really the best option most of the time.
I'd be behind it if it was as powerful as it was when it initially got implemented, because that made you way, way, WAY faster and very erratic, it turned the basic charge into an actually workable approach, but... at the moment? I can't see it being the preferable option.
Pretty much every assumption you have about how this works is wrong, please just watch some videos and practice it a bit in game. You're really overcomplicating it a lot, and from the sounds of it relying on the marines you're fight to be stupid :/
They aren't stupid, they're just human, which means that being a human myself, it is not impossible to predict their actions.
Imagine you are a marine, if you're running around the map, what are you doing?
Chances are, you're trying to get somewhere, which means you are either checking everywhere for aliens, or you're just running there quickly to reduce the amount of time you are away from your team and unsupported. The latter is generally present to a degree.
As an alien I can realise this, and wait along your path. You won't check for me (probably) because the number of places to check is huge, and if you checked all of them you would never get anything done. I can also take into account things like distractions, if the marines chase one of my teammates off, they will think they chased the aliens off full stop if there is no further signs of alien activity, because this is generally the case. 'Why would an alien not be attacking? Aliens are supposed to attack, if it isn't attacking there's not much we can do about it, it could be anywhere, let's start fixing the power node because we need to get set up here' and so on. When they do that they are distracted and you can move in. Or they may choose to cover the exit the alien left by, because chances are he's going for reinforcements or he'll be back soon, and you know he went in that direction, thus it makes sense to cover that direction because for the moment, that's where he is most likely to be. If I am hiding in the room itself, that means you're covering the door and looking away from me. Perfect opportunity to strike.
It's not stupidity, they're making sound decisions and compromises based on probability and their available information, the trick to good alien play (at least I've found) is to be aware of this and buck the trend, be the improbable occurrence, be the thing they (sensibly) bank on not running into. What are the chances of there being this alien hiding in this place at this time just to kill us? Not very high given the distribution of tasks, aliens, and map geometry. Most of the time you're safe, occasionally you're not, the trick lies in being 'occasionally', frequently.
This'd all work a lot better if I had the hand eye coordination to actually hit anything, but it gets me into plenty of fights and with a sufficiently powerful alien, quite a lot of kills, and I'm not very good at the reflex portions of the game. But that's the point, I don't need to be a lot of the time, because there are many, many alternative solutions that are much easier to learn than reflex skills and muscle memory.
Which is why I don't see the point in walljumping, it's a twitch solution to a problem with an awful lot of intellectual solutions.
I think you would see more utility in it if you could do it. If, as you concede, you don't have strong hand-eye coordination, then you might well find that wallhopping won't help your game. I'm not a particularly skillful football player so I've developed a passing game but I don't then discredit the skillset that lets you directly dribble past a man. I certainly don't say it's pointless just because, when I try it, it's counter-productive. I would still much rather that I could both pass and dribble well because I know that doing one doesn't mean I can't do the other. Likewise, knowing how to wallhop doesn't automatically override any semblance of broader decision-making or the implementation of other tactics - you can them all in tandem.
I guess, it's just that I also don't really see any circumstance where I would want to be able to do it.
I just don't encounter situations where I think 'I really wish I could move faster and more erratically as a skulk here' other than perhaps in terms of travel time.
I kinda figured even really good twitch players would prefer to use the other skulk options more than walljumping. Certainly I wouldn't have thought it'd be important enough for it to be a major mechanic for the skulk.
I guess I just don't see walljumping as being equatable to fade blink or lerk flapping or skulk wallwalking, I would struggle to even equate it to gorge slide, as gorge slide is always useful. Press button, go faster, in virtually any situation a gorge is likely to be in. Just seems like it needs... more to really be worth it.
In all honesty I don't. I have other things I like to do other than play games, and lots of other games I like to play other than NS2. It doesn't seem worthwhile to invest a week of my life to mastering a tiny facet of a single game in a single hobby in my life.
I would argue that games shouldn't really expect you to do that either, it seems very much like the same reason people hate COD and MMOs. Grind for hours, get bigger numbers on your man. Replace levels with k/d ratio.
In all honesty, if you don't want to invest time and effort, stick to low-skill servers and don't even bother commenting on the bits you can't do yet. You don't have to nerf the game for the rest of us while you're at it. There are plenty of games where nothing is demanded of you, but to come to this franchise - a multiplayer-only, rts/fps, melee/ranged hybrid - and ask for that is more than a bit cheeky.
<!--quoteo(post=2063219:date=Jan 20 2013, 04:22 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 20 2013, 04:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In all honesty I don't. I have other things I like to do other than play games, and lots of other games I like to play other than NS2. It doesn't seem worthwhile to invest a week of my life to mastering a tiny facet of a single game in a single hobby in my life.
I would argue that games shouldn't really expect you to do that either, it seems very much like the same reason people hate COD and MMOs. Grind for hours, get bigger numbers on your man. Replace levels with k/d ratio.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well i havn't heard this one before. People hate COD because it takes too much time to master, is too complicated and inaccessible?
This seems to be an issue arising from your own legit and perfectly fair preference for games like click and play adventures perhaps. Maybe you should consider that games which require mental exercise of some sort just arn't your thing.
<!--quoteo(post=2063222:date=Jan 19 2013, 05:31 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jan 19 2013, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well i havn't heard this one before. People hate COD because it takes too much time to master, is too complicated and inaccessible?
This seems to be an issue arising from your own legit and perfectly fair preference for games like click and play adventures perhaps. Maybe you should consider that games which require mental exercise of some sort just arn't your thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hate point and click adventures, same reason I hate choose your own adventure books, they're like if you introduced control lag into a regular book. Much rather read a regular book.
And no, I think people tend to complain about cod because it's 'play 2 win' or whatever, as in you grind for better stuff and it makes you harder to kill. Personally I don't see much difference between that and grinding until your muscle memory clicks in. Although some of the more recent games using the COD model certainly have some really unbalanced weapons in them, I remember Crysis 2 was way better in the demo than in the full game because everyone had similarly balanced weapons.
Though now you phrase it, if you think about it then 'mastering' COD is just unlocking the guns, finishing all the multiplayer content, so that really is kinda the complaint isn't it? It's 'inaccessible' because you start off with crap guns and everyone else has good ones, and the only way to get the good ones is to grind and do the stupid achievements and grind some more and hey presto, now you have the guns and the reflexes from all the grinding, and now you're making it inaccessible for everyone else and the game is fun again.
Sure it's slightly more quantified than the conventional model, where you pick up things like clan tags and community acclaim as you get better, but it's the same general idea really, isn't it? Maybe people dislike it because it feels more commercialized or something, like everyone can reach rank 50 now or whatever, or maybe they just really hate the unbalanced high level unlocks or something.
So you want to play counter-strike, where you can't buy weapons (because that's obviously unfair as well). But then you also don't want to have to use that <i>boring</i>, <i>old</i> and<i> tired</i> muscle memory to aim because that's <b>tedious</b>.
Your best bet is just joining servers where players are equally crap as you, no offence.
<!--quoteo(post=2063152:date=Jan 19 2013, 06:59 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Jan 19 2013, 06:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it seems to me you dont even play this game,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bunny-hopping in NS1 was based off being able to time your jumps properly so that you take advantage of a bug that existed in the engine. Basically if you jumped at the right time the game wouldn't reset your speed to the default value and instead you could keep increasing your speed by using gravity to constantly give you a boost. In NS2 it's really not that complicated, basically if you jump off the ceiling or any other high area you get a speed boost from gravity and as long as you keep jumping you retain that extra speed. It's not really an issue of timing as whether i carefully time my jobs or not, I can generally go stupid fast jumping from wall to wall and smashing the space bar.
I'd settle for UT. UT is fun, I like UT. The guns are interesting. More games need guns with slow projectiles.
But no, NS2 is pretty fun a lot of the time, it's got a lot going for it. Like I said, lots of very interesting strategy and sometimes a lot of good teamwork too. Guns could do with being more interesting I think, and some of the mechanics do need a reassessment of the investment-payoff ratio, i.e wall jumping, but generally the game is quite good.
<!--quoteo(post=2063242:date=Jan 19 2013, 05:59 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 19 2013, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny-hopping in NS1 was based off being able to time your jumps properly so that you take advantage of a bug that existed in the engine. Basically if you jumped at the right time the game wouldn't reset your speed to the default value and instead you could keep increasing your speed by using gravity to constantly give you a boost. In NS2 it's really not that complicated, basically if you jump off the ceiling or any other high area you get a speed boost from gravity and as long as you keep jumping you retain that extra speed. It's not really an issue of timing as whether i carefully time my jobs or not, I can generally go stupid fast jumping from wall to wall and smashing the space bar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't comment on things you don't know about and don't call it a bug (because it spreads misinformation on the legitimacy of its <b>deliberate</b> implementation). You could get to top speed in only a couple of jumps - it wasn't some never-ending speed boost reliant on gravity. The only thing complicated (insert: unintuitive) about bunnyhopping in NS1 was the fact that you didn't hold "forward". NS2c shows how easy this could have been to fix for the sequel.
<!--quoteo(post=2063249:date=Jan 19 2013, 10:07 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 19 2013, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't comment on things you don't know about and don't call it a bug (because it spreads misinformation on the legitimacy of its <b>deliberate</b> implementation). You could get to top speed in only a couple of jumps - it wasn't some never-ending speed boost reliant on gravity. The only thing complicated (insert: unintuitive) about bunnyhopping in NS1 was the fact that you didn't hold "forward". NS2c shows how easy this could have been to fix for the sequel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously getting old.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121022&st=100&p=1977417&#entry1977417" target="_blank">Cory's respone to Bhopping</a>
If you read this you may learn something. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We don't hate BHing, and Charlie has stated that he admires the skill required to pull it off properly. It was purposely not removed from NS1, but that is not the same thing as adding it in on purpose either. It is asking a lot to take a controversial mechanic based around exploiting some unintended holes in the movement code of an old engine ( (that to this day some programmer is still probably embarrassed about overlooking), and actually program it into NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what cory said, so if you don't believe me (someone who actually modded in the HL engine and could plainly see this). Maybe you'll believe one of the devs.
And to further cement my point that apparently I DO know what I'm talking about here you go with a pretty straight forward definition of what bunny hopping was in the gldsrc engine.
"The act of timing your jumps to the exact moment when you hit the ground prevents the player from decelerating to normal walking speed. The strafing should also be timed in a particular way to the jumping for greatest effect. Using this technique unbroken, allows a player to gradually accelerate to speeds many times the typical running speed"
Reading up on what bunnyhopping is widely known as does not a NS-bhop expert make. I'm not contending your powers of literacy. I'm contending your understanding of its implementation in NS1. Feel free to prove me wrong by hopping on [teehee] an empty server with me. Also, show me where Cory undermines anything I said.
<!--QuoteBegin-Davil+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(NS1)...Basically if you jumped at the right time the game wouldn't reset your speed to the default value and instead you could keep increasing your speed by using gravity to constantly give you a boost.
In NS2 it's really not that complicated, basically if you jump off the ceiling or any other high area you get a speed boost from gravity and as long as you keep jumping you retain that extra speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to further cement my point that apparently I DO know what I'm talking about
...
"The act of timing your jumps to the exact moment when you hit the ground prevents the player from decelerating to normal walking speed. The strafing should also be timed in a particular way to the jumping for greatest effect. Using this technique unbroken, allows a player to gradually accelerate to speeds many times the typical running speed"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What you've quoted says nothing about your 'gravity' bhop theory. There is no connection between NS2 fall speed walljump and NS1 bhop, they are not both based on gravity. And no, you could not endlessly accelerate via a gravity loop.
So no, i don't think you know what you're talking about. Maybe this will help. <a href="http://www.funender.com/quake/articles/strafing_theory.html" target="_blank">http://www.funender.com/quake/articles/strafing_theory.html</a>
Surprisingly someone actually made a whole wikipedia entry on bunny hopping...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you knew half as much as you pretend to know you would not find that surprising at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2062938:date=Jan 18 2013, 07:12 PM:name=Hivelord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hivelord @ Jan 18 2013, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A seperate issue is whether wall jump is even effective against decent players. I'm beginning to believe that it is not effective, and that netcode factors causing skulk warping and other hard to predict movements are what causes walljumping skulks to be relatively difficult to track. I think as performance improves we'll see alot more dead skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dont forget that skulks can make significant changes to their direction of movement while in mid air. The devs allow skulks to blatantly violate physics and peoples most basic intuitions about physical mechanics (newtons third law) and then wonder "Geee, why are skulks so hard to hit as marine? Must be because theyre too fast!". Cause them making zig zags through the air and phasing right through your model certainly has nothing to do with it!
<!--quoteo(post=2063144:date=Jan 19 2013, 02:33 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 19 2013, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skill ceiling and people playing right below it are a horrible measure. There's always something to do slightly better, but that doesn't mean it's even remotely meaningful or interesting gameplay. When you actually hit the skill cap, the game is already doomed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I was getting at was that I didn't hear a clear argument as to why the current system is bad. The op title implies that it's a weak but he doesn't qualify it with anything meaningful such as: Skill ceiling too low, too powerful etc etc.
There also seems to be a pretty split view in this thread of it being too powerful or not...
<!--quoteo(post=2063269:date=Jan 19 2013, 12:36 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 19 2013, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to further cement my point that apparently I DO know what I'm talking about here you go with a pretty straight forward definition of what bunny hopping was in the gldsrc engine.
"The act of timing your jumps to the exact moment when you hit the ground prevents the player from decelerating to normal walking speed. The strafing should also be timed in a particular way to the jumping for greatest effect. Using this technique unbroken, allows a player to gradually accelerate to speeds many times the typical running speed"
Surprisingly someone actually made a whole wikipedia entry on bunny hopping...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couple points, I got nothing against you personally but to address a few things:
People are paying more attention to your comments because you're a ns2 playtester now, that means people think you have some degree of sway over what happens (When I was an NS1 playtester, I can tell you, you don't) And that's kind of an fyi for everyone else, playtesters give feedback, don't change balance, or really have much say.
It's not like more games playtesting, at least it wasn't when I did it, it's more of a countryclub atmosphere, you rub elbows and play some rounds and say nice things about things even if they aren't and you go home
Anyway, as far as bhop goes, and as a previous master of the art, I can tell you, not everything you've said is accurate, another poster commented on the nature of it to you and he's a lot more accurate in his description.
Again, Davil, try not to be offended by people on here, if I was offended by everyone that ridiculed me I would've been long gone, instead I've decided to stay on, give my opinion, watch it be ignored, and give my thoughts where I want. There's a lot of rooklings on here that showed up with ns2 and think they're good, some are, most aren't.
<!--quoteo(post=2063242:date=Jan 19 2013, 06:59 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 19 2013, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny-hopping in NS1 was based off being able to time your jumps properly so that you take advantage of a bug that existed in the engine. Basically if you jumped at the right time the game wouldn't reset your speed to the default value and instead you could keep increasing your speed by using gravity to constantly give you a boost. In NS2 it's really not that complicated, basically if you jump off the ceiling or any other high area you get a speed boost from gravity and as long as you keep jumping you retain that extra speed. It's not really an issue of timing as whether i carefully time my jobs or not, I can generally go stupid fast jumping from wall to wall and smashing the space bar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No you seem to have misunderstood
I was pointing out the fact that you have no idea what your talking about. You display in your posts a fundemental lack of understanding due to little practical experience. Its as if youve aquired all your information from somewhere else (probably the forums) and havnt figured anything out for yourself.
You say you can mash the spacebar + walljumping and gain 'stupid fast' speed .... seems like your talking about the old walljump and havnt played the game since many builds ago or havnt walljumped in a long time at least.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I did like how walljumping worked in the B20X builds (see <a href="http://youtu.be/mUyCARb46YE" target="_blank">here</a>). However, I think the current walljumping works fine for the purposes of giving a skilled skulk an edge over lesser skilled marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2063304:date=Jan 19 2013, 11:41 AM:name=Desther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Desther @ Jan 19 2013, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I was getting at was that I didn't hear a clear argument as to why the current system is bad. The op title implies that it's a weak but he doesn't qualify it with anything meaningful such as: Skill ceiling too low, too powerful etc etc.
There also seems to be a pretty split view in this thread of it being too powerful or not...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wall-jumping was suppose to replace bunny-hopping from ns1
Bunny-hopping was mainly used to get from A to B quicker
This is where wall-jumping fails and for a number of reasons - map geometry means wall-jumping is very sporadic - wall surface and decorative props that get in the way - inability to maintain speed after you land on the floor ie. no more chain wall-jumping - probably some others i cant think of right now - main factor : you arent that much quicker at ariving at your destination which means your putting in alot of effort for very little gain
now compare all this with marines who just hold down shift and can gain 20% more speed for quite a long duration.
As a skulk your going to be wall-jumping where you can and your gonna gain small bursts of speed here and there to shave off a few seconds of transit time. This ends up being frustrating as you can never maintain the speed that you work hard to get. More often than not your going to feel like it just isnt worth the effort and that its not actually a skill but rather you just jumping around like an idiot.
Bunny-hopping on the other hand is far superior compared to Wall-jumping as its not only more satisfying but it has alot more depth to the mechanic for people to explore.
As for the confusion, i think people who are ok with the current wall-jumping just dont know any better
"It always looked like a bug, and it was very unintuitive to new players. Yes, people may say the same thing about the current implementation of wall jumping. I don't particularly agree, because the goal of it is for new players to be able to accidentally discover it, by getting feedback of sound effects and a noticeable speed boost when they jump off a surface, ideally leading them to experiment more with it. And players can see skulks bouncing around off of the walls, and can at least make some kind of sense out of it, as opposed to seeing some bouncing skulk moving at insane speeds across an open floor. BHing was next to impossible for a new player to ever discover on their own."
Stick to NS2 wall-jumping mechanics on its own terms. This is non-issue to most people, because it's unreasonable to include a mechanic that was NEVER INTENDED to be in the first place. It's insane and downright self-centered to expect NS2 to cater to the BUGGED, exploitative mechanics of past source-engine games.
Comments
I still don't see the utility.
Perhaps if I happen to be sitting on that wall in warehouse for some unexplained reason, and a marine comes in the far door and doesn't immediately shoot me off the wall, I could launch myself almost directly at him and go quite fast without appearing to move very much on his screen, presumably if he didn't shoot me at the start he might not shoot me now, and then I could commence the usual melee fight when I reach him.
I still don't see how that helps you actually navigate around an actual map with any improved degree of success, or help in combat at all. The better solution in that situation would be to 1. not sit on the wall there. 2. hide out of sight but watch the room. 3. use the roof space to get to a better position on any incoming marines, and 4. drop on their heads while they are distracted, preferably after they waste their clip on a building or something.
Chained walljumps are just... kinda incompatible with any other skulk tactic. Either you're a bit faster, very noisy, and very visible, or you are careful and can get to marines without them seeing you, the latter is far easier and equally if not more effective. Still not really seeing the point. It looks nice but it doesn't seem helpful. Actually doing it in combat seems very infeasible. If we follow the 'only attack lone marines' thing which itself is often not an option, you can kill them far easier by exploiting their limited line of sight. If you can manage to get close by dropping on them or bursting out of a small alcove, you have already achieved the end result of a perfect walljump sequence, without any real effort except for thinking 'where would the marine likely go? Is he in a hurry? He probably won't be expecting a skulk, so I can take advantage of that' and similar things.
...it works on every surface, there's no way to make this not work unless you're taking more than one jump on the ground. There's no decent player in the game that doesn't do this every time they move. It's never not useful no matter what you're doing.
But as Sewlek said, UWE is aware of it and it's fairly high on their to-do list.
My point is why should I bounce from wall to wall, zigzagging wildly across a hallway, using up my supposed speed boost by increasing the amount of distance I have to cover, when I can simply not charge the marine, and instead move slowly and quietly to a position I know the marine will open himself to ambush from, taking about the same amount of time. Or instead I could use the many small crawlspaces in maps to put lots of geometry between me and the marine, and re-emerge from a different angle, which works better in coordinated attacks because that way marines aren't shooting into a cloud of skulks and are not guaranteed to hit someone, even if they miss their target.
As a simple alternative to zig zagging slightly while moving along a corridor I can sort of see it? But it doesn't seem better, and you can't do it while hiding (and trying to be quiet so that marines don't hear lots of alien grunting and clicking as you bounce around) and it doesn't work in small spaces because you keep hitting floors/ceilings.
Those are the main two alternative skulk tactics and they're very effective, walljumping seems to just be an evolution of the very basic skulk approach of 'run at enemy, try not to get hit' which has a place, but is already not very difficult to do, and still not really the best option most of the time.
I'd be behind it if it was as powerful as it was when it initially got implemented, because that made you way, way, WAY faster and very erratic, it turned the basic charge into an actually workable approach, but... at the moment? I can't see it being the preferable option.
Imagine you are a marine, if you're running around the map, what are you doing?
Chances are, you're trying to get somewhere, which means you are either checking everywhere for aliens, or you're just running there quickly to reduce the amount of time you are away from your team and unsupported. The latter is generally present to a degree.
As an alien I can realise this, and wait along your path. You won't check for me (probably) because the number of places to check is huge, and if you checked all of them you would never get anything done. I can also take into account things like distractions, if the marines chase one of my teammates off, they will think they chased the aliens off full stop if there is no further signs of alien activity, because this is generally the case. 'Why would an alien not be attacking? Aliens are supposed to attack, if it isn't attacking there's not much we can do about it, it could be anywhere, let's start fixing the power node because we need to get set up here' and so on. When they do that they are distracted and you can move in. Or they may choose to cover the exit the alien left by, because chances are he's going for reinforcements or he'll be back soon, and you know he went in that direction, thus it makes sense to cover that direction because for the moment, that's where he is most likely to be. If I am hiding in the room itself, that means you're covering the door and looking away from me. Perfect opportunity to strike.
It's not stupidity, they're making sound decisions and compromises based on probability and their available information, the trick to good alien play (at least I've found) is to be aware of this and buck the trend, be the improbable occurrence, be the thing they (sensibly) bank on not running into. What are the chances of there being this alien hiding in this place at this time just to kill us? Not very high given the distribution of tasks, aliens, and map geometry. Most of the time you're safe, occasionally you're not, the trick lies in being 'occasionally', frequently.
This'd all work a lot better if I had the hand eye coordination to actually hit anything, but it gets me into plenty of fights and with a sufficiently powerful alien, quite a lot of kills, and I'm not very good at the reflex portions of the game. But that's the point, I don't need to be a lot of the time, because there are many, many alternative solutions that are much easier to learn than reflex skills and muscle memory.
Which is why I don't see the point in walljumping, it's a twitch solution to a problem with an awful lot of intellectual solutions.
I just don't encounter situations where I think 'I really wish I could move faster and more erratically as a skulk here' other than perhaps in terms of travel time.
I kinda figured even really good twitch players would prefer to use the other skulk options more than walljumping. Certainly I wouldn't have thought it'd be important enough for it to be a major mechanic for the skulk.
I guess I just don't see walljumping as being equatable to fade blink or lerk flapping or skulk wallwalking, I would struggle to even equate it to gorge slide, as gorge slide is always useful. Press button, go faster, in virtually any situation a gorge is likely to be in. Just seems like it needs... more to really be worth it.
I would argue that games shouldn't really expect you to do that either, it seems very much like the same reason people hate COD and MMOs. Grind for hours, get bigger numbers on your man. Replace levels with k/d ratio.
In all honesty, if you don't want to invest time and effort, stick to low-skill servers and don't even bother commenting on the bits you can't do yet. You don't have to nerf the game for the rest of us while you're at it. There are plenty of games where nothing is demanded of you, but to come to this franchise - a multiplayer-only, rts/fps, melee/ranged hybrid - and ask for that is more than a bit cheeky.
I would argue that games shouldn't really expect you to do that either, it seems very much like the same reason people hate COD and MMOs. Grind for hours, get bigger numbers on your man. Replace levels with k/d ratio.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well i havn't heard this one before. People hate COD because it takes too much time to master, is too complicated and inaccessible?
This seems to be an issue arising from your own legit and perfectly fair preference for games like click and play adventures perhaps. Maybe you should consider that games which require mental exercise of some sort just arn't your thing.
This seems to be an issue arising from your own legit and perfectly fair preference for games like click and play adventures perhaps. Maybe you should consider that games which require mental exercise of some sort just arn't your thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hate point and click adventures, same reason I hate choose your own adventure books, they're like if you introduced control lag into a regular book. Much rather read a regular book.
And no, I think people tend to complain about cod because it's 'play 2 win' or whatever, as in you grind for better stuff and it makes you harder to kill. Personally I don't see much difference between that and grinding until your muscle memory clicks in. Although some of the more recent games using the COD model certainly have some really unbalanced weapons in them, I remember Crysis 2 was way better in the demo than in the full game because everyone had similarly balanced weapons.
Though now you phrase it, if you think about it then 'mastering' COD is just unlocking the guns, finishing all the multiplayer content, so that really is kinda the complaint isn't it? It's 'inaccessible' because you start off with crap guns and everyone else has good ones, and the only way to get the good ones is to grind and do the stupid achievements and grind some more and hey presto, now you have the guns and the reflexes from all the grinding, and now you're making it inaccessible for everyone else and the game is fun again.
Sure it's slightly more quantified than the conventional model, where you pick up things like clan tags and community acclaim as you get better, but it's the same general idea really, isn't it? Maybe people dislike it because it feels more commercialized or something, like everyone can reach rank 50 now or whatever, or maybe they just really hate the unbalanced high level unlocks or something.
Your best bet is just joining servers where players are equally crap as you, no offence.
Bunny-hopping in NS1 was based off being able to time your jumps properly so that you take advantage of a bug that existed in the engine. Basically if you jumped at the right time the game wouldn't reset your speed to the default value and instead you could keep increasing your speed by using gravity to constantly give you a boost. In NS2 it's really not that complicated, basically if you jump off the ceiling or any other high area you get a speed boost from gravity and as long as you keep jumping you retain that extra speed. It's not really an issue of timing as whether i carefully time my jobs or not, I can generally go stupid fast jumping from wall to wall and smashing the space bar.
But no, NS2 is pretty fun a lot of the time, it's got a lot going for it. Like I said, lots of very interesting strategy and sometimes a lot of good teamwork too. Guns could do with being more interesting I think, and some of the mechanics do need a reassessment of the investment-payoff ratio, i.e wall jumping, but generally the game is quite good.
Don't comment on things you don't know about and don't call it a bug (because it spreads misinformation on the legitimacy of its <b>deliberate</b> implementation). You could get to top speed in only a couple of jumps - it wasn't some never-ending speed boost reliant on gravity. The only thing complicated (insert: unintuitive) about bunnyhopping in NS1 was the fact that you didn't hold "forward". NS2c shows how easy this could have been to fix for the sequel.
Seriously getting old.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121022&st=100&p=1977417&#entry1977417" target="_blank">Cory's respone to Bhopping</a>
If you read this you may learn something.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We don't hate BHing, and Charlie has stated that he admires the skill required to pull it off properly. It was purposely not removed from NS1, but that is not the same thing as adding it in on purpose either. It is asking a lot to take a controversial mechanic based around exploiting some unintended holes in the movement code of an old engine ( (that to this day some programmer is still probably embarrassed about overlooking), and actually program it into NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what cory said, so if you don't believe me (someone who actually modded in the HL engine and could plainly see this). Maybe you'll believe one of the devs.
"The act of timing your jumps to the exact moment when you hit the ground prevents the player from decelerating to normal walking speed. The strafing should also be timed in a particular way to the jumping for greatest effect. Using this technique unbroken, allows a player to gradually accelerate to speeds many times the typical running speed"
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping</a>
Surprisingly someone actually made a whole wikipedia entry on bunny hopping...
In NS2 it's really not that complicated, basically if you jump off the ceiling or any other high area you get a speed boost from gravity and as long as you keep jumping you retain that extra speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to further cement my point that apparently I DO know what I'm talking about
...
"The act of timing your jumps to the exact moment when you hit the ground prevents the player from decelerating to normal walking speed. The strafing should also be timed in a particular way to the jumping for greatest effect. Using this technique unbroken, allows a player to gradually accelerate to speeds many times the typical running speed"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you've quoted says nothing about your 'gravity' bhop theory. There is no connection between NS2 fall speed walljump and NS1 bhop, they are not both based on gravity. And no, you could not endlessly accelerate via a gravity loop.
So no, i don't think you know what you're talking about. Maybe this will help. <a href="http://www.funender.com/quake/articles/strafing_theory.html" target="_blank">http://www.funender.com/quake/articles/strafing_theory.html</a>
Surprisingly someone actually made a whole wikipedia entry on bunny hopping...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you knew half as much as you pretend to know you would not find that surprising at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2062938:date=Jan 18 2013, 07:12 PM:name=Hivelord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hivelord @ Jan 18 2013, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A seperate issue is whether wall jump is even effective against decent players. I'm beginning to believe that it is not effective, and that netcode factors causing skulk warping and other hard to predict movements are what causes walljumping skulks to be relatively difficult to track. I think as performance improves we'll see alot more dead skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont forget that skulks can make significant changes to their direction of movement while in mid air. The devs allow skulks to blatantly violate physics and peoples most basic intuitions about physical mechanics (newtons third law) and then wonder "Geee, why are skulks so hard to hit as marine? Must be because theyre too fast!". Cause them making zig zags through the air and phasing right through your model certainly has nothing to do with it!
What I was getting at was that I didn't hear a clear argument as to why the current system is bad. The op title implies that it's a weak but he doesn't qualify it with anything meaningful such as: Skill ceiling too low, too powerful etc etc.
There also seems to be a pretty split view in this thread of it being too powerful or not...
And isn't that awesome
"The act of timing your jumps to the exact moment when you hit the ground prevents the player from decelerating to normal walking speed. The strafing should also be timed in a particular way to the jumping for greatest effect. Using this technique unbroken, allows a player to gradually accelerate to speeds many times the typical running speed"
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping</a>
Surprisingly someone actually made a whole wikipedia entry on bunny hopping...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couple points, I got nothing against you personally but to address a few things:
People are paying more attention to your comments because you're a ns2 playtester now, that means people think you have some degree of sway over what happens (When I was an NS1 playtester, I can tell you, you don't) And that's kind of an fyi for everyone else, playtesters give feedback, don't change balance, or really have much say.
It's not like more games playtesting, at least it wasn't when I did it, it's more of a countryclub atmosphere, you rub elbows and play some rounds and say nice things about things even if they aren't and you go home
Anyway, as far as bhop goes, and as a previous master of the art, I can tell you, not everything you've said is accurate, another poster commented on the nature of it to you and he's a lot more accurate in his description.
Again, Davil, try not to be offended by people on here, if I was offended by everyone that ridiculed me I would've been long gone, instead I've decided to stay on, give my opinion, watch it be ignored, and give my thoughts where I want. There's a lot of rooklings on here that showed up with ns2 and think they're good, some are, most aren't.
you're an alright guy, just a bit naive.
good luck
No you seem to have misunderstood
I was pointing out the fact that you have no idea what your talking about. You display in your posts a fundemental lack of understanding due to little practical experience. Its as if youve aquired all your information from somewhere else (probably the forums) and havnt figured anything out for yourself.
You say you can mash the spacebar + walljumping and gain 'stupid fast' speed .... seems like your talking about the old walljump and havnt played the game since many builds ago or havnt walljumped in a long time at least.
There also seems to be a pretty split view in this thread of it being too powerful or not...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wall-jumping was suppose to replace bunny-hopping from ns1
Bunny-hopping was mainly used to get from A to B quicker
This is where wall-jumping fails and for a number of reasons
- map geometry means wall-jumping is very sporadic
- wall surface and decorative props that get in the way
- inability to maintain speed after you land on the floor ie. no more chain wall-jumping
- probably some others i cant think of right now
- main factor : you arent that much quicker at ariving at your destination which means your putting in alot of effort for very little gain
now compare all this with marines who just hold down shift and can gain 20% more speed for quite a long duration.
As a skulk your going to be wall-jumping where you can and your gonna gain small bursts of speed here and there to shave off a few seconds of transit time. This ends up being frustrating as you can never maintain the speed that you work hard to get. More often than not your going to feel like it just isnt worth the effort and that its not actually a skill but rather you just jumping around like an idiot.
Bunny-hopping on the other hand is far superior compared to Wall-jumping as its not only more satisfying but it has alot more depth to the mechanic for people to explore.
As for the confusion, i think people who are ok with the current wall-jumping just dont know any better
hope this clears things up :)
Stick to NS2 wall-jumping mechanics on its own terms. This is non-issue to most people, because it's unreasonable to include a mechanic that was NEVER INTENDED to be in the first place. It's insane and downright self-centered to expect NS2 to cater to the BUGGED, exploitative mechanics of past source-engine games.