The problem with late game balance
wolfmanbfc
Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181591Members
Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181591Members
I am not going to make any suggestions about how to solve what I am about to discuss, as the game is not feature complete and UW probably has something cool in the pipe. I am just pointing out what I view as the major flaw in the game as it stands right now.
So, marines are winning approximately 43% of the time these days, which in balance terms is pretty abysmal. I am going to tell you why this is happening, but let me give you some theory first.
So, when trying to balance two entities, the easy starting point is to make them the same. But this is boring and we want our asymmetry. Now you can give your entities sweet weapons or kicking buildings, but those things are merely the frosting you put on your well balanced cake. When you get down to the bare bones of balance, there are only 4 things and everything feeds into them. Speed, range, damage output, and survivability. One thing to note is that in NS2, range is is highly map dependent since maps with lots of cramped quarters means range will not be useful in most battles, and most NS2 maps feature lots of cramped quarters.
On an individual player level you have basic skulks vs marines. Skulks and marines have similar damage outputs and survivability, but where they differ is that skulks have much more speed and marines have much more range and this disparity is great for gameplay.
On a team level, you can generalize this by taking the average of all the individual players and structures on the team. Early game is balanced by the fact that all players are basic marines and skulks. Mid game, marines get phase gates and jetpacks increasing speed, while aliens will have leap and blink and crags and whips all over the place to increase survivability of their buildings and players.
Where things break down is the late game with arrival of the exosuit and arc trains. Exosuits and arc trains provide an moderate increase in damage output to match the power of onos and fade, but are practically immobile compared to marines or late game aliens and tend to die quickly if not protected by a squad of marines.
This drastically lowers marine mobility and now there is a tie in damage output, while aliens hold the advantage in survivability and speed while marines hold the advantage in range, which as I discussed before is dependent on where the marines are on the map.
The most common way this manifests itself is that late game you will see marines try to move out and start a death push only to have aliens counter-attack and win the game. Marine bases require constant marine presence in order to not immediately die to an alien attack. Exos and arcs also require constant marine presence to not die. It takes ~5 minutes for a marine convoy to walk across the map and destroy an alien base, and, even with jetpacks and phase gates, asking the marine team to defend 2 bases and the convoy for those 5 minutes is going to be futile if not impossible if the aliens are coordinated enough.
Like I said, I am not going to make any suggestions, I am just pointing out that I think marines need a boost in one of the core balance axes in the late game.
So, marines are winning approximately 43% of the time these days, which in balance terms is pretty abysmal. I am going to tell you why this is happening, but let me give you some theory first.
So, when trying to balance two entities, the easy starting point is to make them the same. But this is boring and we want our asymmetry. Now you can give your entities sweet weapons or kicking buildings, but those things are merely the frosting you put on your well balanced cake. When you get down to the bare bones of balance, there are only 4 things and everything feeds into them. Speed, range, damage output, and survivability. One thing to note is that in NS2, range is is highly map dependent since maps with lots of cramped quarters means range will not be useful in most battles, and most NS2 maps feature lots of cramped quarters.
On an individual player level you have basic skulks vs marines. Skulks and marines have similar damage outputs and survivability, but where they differ is that skulks have much more speed and marines have much more range and this disparity is great for gameplay.
On a team level, you can generalize this by taking the average of all the individual players and structures on the team. Early game is balanced by the fact that all players are basic marines and skulks. Mid game, marines get phase gates and jetpacks increasing speed, while aliens will have leap and blink and crags and whips all over the place to increase survivability of their buildings and players.
Where things break down is the late game with arrival of the exosuit and arc trains. Exosuits and arc trains provide an moderate increase in damage output to match the power of onos and fade, but are practically immobile compared to marines or late game aliens and tend to die quickly if not protected by a squad of marines.
This drastically lowers marine mobility and now there is a tie in damage output, while aliens hold the advantage in survivability and speed while marines hold the advantage in range, which as I discussed before is dependent on where the marines are on the map.
The most common way this manifests itself is that late game you will see marines try to move out and start a death push only to have aliens counter-attack and win the game. Marine bases require constant marine presence in order to not immediately die to an alien attack. Exos and arcs also require constant marine presence to not die. It takes ~5 minutes for a marine convoy to walk across the map and destroy an alien base, and, even with jetpacks and phase gates, asking the marine team to defend 2 bases and the convoy for those 5 minutes is going to be futile if not impossible if the aliens are coordinated enough.
Like I said, I am not going to make any suggestions, I am just pointing out that I think marines need a boost in one of the core balance axes in the late game.
Comments
I get really annoyed when we're winning as marine, have two hives locked down and are bearing down on their second hive and oopsie 4 gorges just appeared and they're biling the power nodes AND ONLY the power nodes, because they know that biling just power does not send a commander alert (Which needs to be fixed as well)
Aliens lack a solid game ending third hive ability, make it bilebomb.
I get really annoyed when we're winning as marine, have two hives locked down and are bearing down on their second hive and oopsie 4 gorges just appeared and they're biling the power nodes AND ONLY the power nodes, because they know that biling just power does not send a commander alert (Which needs to be fixed as well)
Aliens lack a solid game ending third hive ability, make it bilebomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to this.
The real answer is to always keep one marine at each base. Unfortunately, this is not viable in most pub matches as newbs want to attack, not do boring defence for 10-20 minutes - and putting your 1-2 good players on guard duty ruins the chance at early expansion.
I get really annoyed when we're winning as marine, have two hives locked down and are bearing down on their second hive and oopsie 4 gorges just appeared and they're biling the power nodes AND ONLY the power nodes, because they know that biling just power does not send a commander alert (Which needs to be fixed as well)
Aliens lack a solid game ending third hive ability, make it bilebomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Midgame arcs would be unkillable then.
-powernodes properly alert commander
/fixed
alternatively powernodes +25% hp.
If marines control more of the map early, it is very easy to run over aliens late. Same goes for aliens.
It is hard to tell where balance issues are because marines need more teamwork, which doesn't happen on some pubs. You can't use statistics to balance a game around those who aren't playing correctly.
This works for alien because they don't have to be babysat constantly like marines. Not a good suggestion.
I know most people disagree with me, but in my opinion the exo is the single most powerful unit in the game, by a long shot. The problem is, most people try to use it as a long term siege unit, or they try to spam them. All you need is one good exo in the right place. Stop sneaking ######ty jetpackers into hive rooms, starting sneaking exos in. An exo kills a hive in 24 seconds by himself. That isn't enough time for an alien team to react.
In my experience, if the marines can make it to late game, without the early game screwing them over considerably, its the time when they are at their strongest.
I know most people disagree with me, but in my opinion the exo is the single most powerful unit in the game, by a long shot. The problem is, most people try to use it as a long term siege unit, or they try to spam them. All you need is one good exo in the right place. Stop sneaking ######ty jetpackers into hive rooms, starting sneaking exos in. An exo kills a hive in 24 seconds by himself. That isn't enough time for an alien team to react.
In my experience, if the marines can make it to late game, without the early game screwing them over considerably, its the time when they are at their strongest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nah you're right, In games where there's a lot of base-trading between us and aliums, I get a guy to sit at each of my critical points and gaurd with an exo and a couple macs nearby.
Exo are terrible in the sense that people are trying to use them for their intended purpose and failing. Exo are fantastic when you consider them to be defense and not offense.
So, marines are winning approximately 43% of the time these days, which in balance terms is pretty abysmal. I am going to tell you why this is happening, but let me give you some theory first.
So, when trying to balance two entities, the easy starting point is to make them the same. But this is boring and we want our asymmetry. Now you can give your entities sweet weapons or kicking buildings, but those things are merely the frosting you put on your well balanced cake. When you get down to the bare bones of balance, there are only 4 things and everything feeds into them. Speed, range, damage output, and survivability. One thing to note is that in NS2, range is is highly map dependent since maps with lots of cramped quarters means range will not be useful in most battles, and most NS2 maps feature lots of cramped quarters.
On an individual player level you have basic skulks vs marines. Skulks and marines have similar damage outputs and survivability, but where they differ is that skulks have much more speed and marines have much more range and this disparity is great for gameplay.
On a team level, you can generalize this by taking the average of all the individual players and structures on the team. Early game is balanced by the fact that all players are basic marines and skulks. Mid game, marines get phase gates and jetpacks increasing speed, while aliens will have leap and blink and crags and whips all over the place to increase survivability of their buildings and players.
Where things break down is the late game with arrival of the exosuit and arc trains. Exosuits and arc trains provide an moderate increase in damage output to match the power of onos and fade, but are practically immobile compared to marines or late game aliens and tend to die quickly if not protected by a squad of marines.
This drastically lowers marine mobility and now there is a tie in damage output, while aliens hold the advantage in survivability and speed while marines hold the advantage in range, which as I discussed before is dependent on where the marines are on the map.
The most common way this manifests itself is that late game you will see marines try to move out and start a death push only to have aliens counter-attack and win the game. Marine bases require constant marine presence in order to not immediately die to an alien attack. Exos and arcs also require constant marine presence to not die. It takes ~5 minutes for a marine convoy to walk across the map and destroy an alien base, and, even with jetpacks and phase gates, asking the marine team to defend 2 bases and the convoy for those 5 minutes is going to be futile if not impossible if the aliens are coordinated enough.
Like I said, I am not going to make any suggestions, I am just pointing out that I think marines need a boost in one of the core balance axes in the late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know you can buy jetpacks right?
You know that 7% off a perfect 50/50 is not a huge number?
You know that marines suffer from a wider skill ceiling than aliens, both in commander and on the ground?
When I did this my result was 61.63% (1675) for aliens and 38.37% (1043) for marines. I haven't seen marines at 43% in some time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a team level, you can generalize this by taking the average of all the individual players and structures on the team. Early game is balanced by the fact that all players are basic marines and skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's not though. Early game marines are just as imbalanced as late game marines.
In the early game marines are expected to:
-build base structures
-move out to build extractors
-move and secure a tech point
-defend extractors that are attacked
-attempt to harass alien harvesters
-defend against ambush alien attacks
The early game marine is placed under extreme load as they try and survive under their responsibilities.
The early game skulk has the following responsibilities:
-Kill stuff
That's it.
Ask yourself this, when you play marines, you are constantly aware and anticipating attack bu skulks - right? An ambush could be around any corner. Yes?
When you play alien there is no such fear. Skulks never worry about being 'hunted' by marines, since aliens are *seeking out* marines to kill. They have no threats against them on an individual level. There are no marine 'kill teams' roaming the map looking for skulks to kill. No gorge building a harvester to ambush. That's the difference. There is no pressure on aliens in the early game. The Khamm does what he needs to do without their help, and the aliens have no real tasks to carry out. Short of the rare marine hive rush, skulks are free to do whatever they want.
Marine, on the other hand, have to be intimately cognizant of all marine responsibilities, and they need to complete them flawlessly. Lose a few early game extractors and you've lost the game. Fail to secure a tech point early on and you've lost the game. Get killed too often early on (before armor 1) and you've lost the game. Lose a power node in your main base and you've lost the game. I could go on and on.
Marines get buried in responsibilities that NEED to be carried out. No room for error.
Aliens just have to 'kill'. Be it a marine, an extractor, a power node etc, their job is simplistic in the early game. "Kill their stuff" is all you need to tell new players.
There's your trigger for imbalance.
With so little forgiveness, there are so many ways the marines can get 'behind' to such an extent where they can't recover.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where things break down is the late game with arrival of the exosuit and arc trains. Exosuits and arc trains provide an moderate increase in damage output to match the power of onos and fade, but are practically immobile compared to marines or late game aliens and tend to die quickly if not protected by a squad of marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->There is an inherent imbalance in the late game with mobility. Aliens can attack a marine tech point with their 'heavy units' at a moment's notice, without marines being aware of it until it happens. Alternately for the marines, their 'heavy units' can never attack without their attack being known well in advance and being able to prepare for it. While marines can 'sneak attack' with stock marines, they'll never pull off an 'EXO rush'.
This is where the "I win" button of distress beacon also comes in. Not only do marines suffer from poor mobility, they are unable to defend their EXOs when a beacon is forced - and all it takes is ONE skulk to do it because of the inane 'power node' mechanic, which is yet *another* alien "I win" button.
There are no such buttons for the marines to press. There is nothing that a solo marine can do that will make the aliens go "gg" in response. If a marine sneaks in and starts to shoot the hive or upgrades, it's not a serious threat since aliens move VERY fast and can always get there in time. (or the khamm can jump out since he isn't needed in the same way as the comm is) Marines can't disable a power node to stop eggs from spawning, or to disable alien upgrades. There is no risk from a rambo marine.
While it's fine for aliens to be faster than marines, there needs to be a tool to counter it. Distress beacon becomes a huge liability as soon as the first EXO or ARC leaves the base. It's the only 'beneficial' function in the game that benefits the opposing team more than the team that it is supposed to benefit.
This is why more games are won without using EXOs or ARCs, since all too often they just end up dead anyway. Having 5 marines with level 3 LMGs rush in to shoot a hive can be infinitely more effective, and it provides the element of surprise. The problem here is that alien mobility (and drifters) makes this hard to pull off. However, it's a far cry better than the alternatives.
Lol I think you are exaggerating things a bit there my friend, I don't think these extra marine responsibilities are the reason for the win differential. Basically I could summarize your entire post as, "marines have to build ######, they get ambushed by aliens alot, its easier to be the ambusher then the ambushee."
While not having to build structures is certainly an alien advantage, it comes with many disadvantages such as the large additional cost of cysts, the possibility of you losing a structure to a sneaky marine who anticipates your buildings, the cyst chain being cut or your buildings dying to a lack of attention. Even if this were not the case, the game is not meant to be even in every aspect.
The game is much closer to balanced then people think in my opinion, with continued improvement to hit reg, and I think some sort of buff to power nodes for pub play, the stats will become much closer.
If you have been paying attnetino lately, ARC use is rapidly increasing, and I expect an increase in marine wins to be the result
I wouldn't say as to remove them completely, their destruction will inflict a large debuff in the base but killing them shouldn't horribly maim it.
The way I see it:
Functions regardless of power:
CC, sentries
"Partial" functionality w/o power:
Adv./Armory-still dispenses HP & armor, but no weapon purchases
Obs-No beacon, Inconsistent detection, but is off more than it is on
Arms lab: 'Power save mode' where the comm can choose two slots to remain active when the power is down: Either A1W1, W2, or A2.
<b>EDIT</b>: BERt0r's idea: slow down the spawing rate of IP's (by how much I dunno, but by alot, like 50% slower or more)
Everything else will be disabled like normal.
@Weasel: If the ips still work, killing the powernode would become totally useless. Maybe slow down respawn, that would be an option. Or get rid of powernodes alltogether.
Since powernodes slow down marine expansion by a few seconds per room, as well as provide the aliens with an additional chance to ambush a building marine, it becomes much more difficult to apply the necessary early game pressure in order to keep up in res flow and territory control.
In addition, Powernodes in the main base are, as said before, a giant Win button for aliens, regardless of if there are notifications for the commander about them being attacked.
Ignoring powernodes, the lategame units, Exo and Onos, seem to have their own set of issues about being balanced for eachother.
The onos's HP and armor values were adjusted when the exo was released due to the miniguns not being affected by Hide Armor, which, in my opinion, has lead to the onos in its current state of being exorbantly more durable than any other alien unit, and the exo being able to obliterate any other units in just a few bullets.
The exo deals 25 heavy damage per bullet, which deals 100% damage to armor. This means that each exo minigun is capable of putting out the damage of two w3 LMG marines (lvl 3 lmg = 13). With a force multiplier like this, the only possible response is an Onos with an extreme amount of HP. This is also the major flaw with the balancing of the end game units, which is that they are only balanced against each other.
Switching the Exo's damage to normal for miniguns and heavy for the fist only would allow the onos to be toned down a bit in HP and Armor and let all tech be balanced against all the tools each side has available to murder each other.
Just my opinion
Edited to correct for misinformation
I thought armor worked like this: (I could be wrong)
Points of damage to take a away 1 point of armor
Light: 4:1
Normal: 2:1
Heavy: 1:1
either way, 25 damage per shot at a 1:1 ratio still removes the armor of any lifeform with cara but the onos in 4 bullets (which can be fired in half the time with dual miniguns).
I wish I wasn't so lazy that I would actually look up these numbers as well as the fire rates of the exo.
And that's if we had a reliable wiki =(
<!--quoteo(post=2066194:date=Jan 24 2013, 10:09 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Jan 24 2013, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->heavy does full dmg to armor normal does 50% and light does 25%.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much what I said, but in percentiles instead of ratios.
Once the middle game rolls around, the marines only need to respond to attacks. Expansion is done, so they are in 'protect our stuff' mode while they tech their way to the end game.
However, in the early game, you have skulks that have NOTHING to do other than 'kill marine & their stuff'. No building. No repairing. No nothing. Khamm does it all alone while the skulks hop around and kill marines, or an extractor if they happen to pass one that hasn't been taken out yet.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While not having to build structures is certainly an alien advantage, it comes with many disadvantages such as the large additional cost of cysts<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The *ONE* res per cyst is a "large additional cost?" You can't possibly expect me to swallow that tripe.
How many armories or advanced armories do aliens build? Oh that's right... NONE since aliens don't need ammo. (and crags don't count since you can heal at a hive) They also have no 'proto lab' style building that needs to be built to 'unlock' Onos. Heck, aliens don't even need to RESEARCH the other lifeforms. While the comm pays for proto lab, jetpack research and for both EXO researches, aliens don't pay a penny for access to higher lifeforms. They don't pay for robotics factories in order to drop whips. They get their sentries (hydras) for FREE. They don't pay for welders to heal their structures. Do I need to go on?
So please don't start crying crocodile tears over the poor khamm paying ONE res a pop to drop a cyst.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is much closer to balanced then people think in my opinion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The developers disagree with you. They've acknowledged a 60/40 alien/marine win/loss imbalance. Maybe you call that 'close', but I don't.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have been paying attnetino lately, ARC use is rapidly increasing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah people are waking up to how useless the EXOs are now, so the ARCs are getting more use.
Some things that can be done to alleviate the pressure on early game Marines is to have Aliens NEED Gorges to build structures. This not only slows down the Aliens Khams rapid expansion but more importantly takes skulks off the frontline. Cyst cooldown should also be slightly increased to prevent such rapid expansion by the Khamm and bring them more in line with Marine expansion speed.
The power node concept, while interesting on paper is just one massive liability in game. As previously stated, it's all drawback and no benefit for the Marines. Why do Marines even have such a vulnerability? Is there a reason Aliens need this to effectively defeat a Marine base? I'd just scrap the whole thing and chalk it up to a cool idea gone bad. Out in the field, it's just another way to get Marines to keep their backs to skulks.
Once the middle game rolls around, the marines only need to respond to attacks. Expansion is done, so they are in 'protect our stuff' mode while they tech their way to the end game.
However, in the early game, you have skulks that have NOTHING to do other than 'kill marine & their stuff'. No building. No repairing. No nothing. Khamm does it all alone while the skulks hop around and kill marines, or an extractor if they happen to pass one that hasn't been taken out yet.
The *ONE* res per cyst is a "large additional cost?" You can't possibly expect me to swallow that tripe.
How many armories or advanced armories do aliens build? Oh that's right... NONE since aliens don't need ammo. (and crags don't count since you can heal at a hive) They also have no 'proto lab' style building that needs to be built to 'unlock' Onos. Heck, aliens don't even need to RESEARCH the other lifeforms. While the comm pays for proto lab, jetpack research and for both EXO researches, aliens don't pay a penny for access to higher lifeforms. They don't pay for robotics factories in order to drop whips. They get their sentries (hydras) for FREE. They don't pay for welders to heal their structures. Do I need to go on?
So please don't start crying crocodile tears over the poor khamm paying ONE res a pop to drop a cyst.
The developers disagree with you. They've acknowledged a 60/40 alien/marine win/loss imbalance. Maybe you call that 'close', but I don't.
Yeah people are waking up to how useless the EXOs are now, so the ARCs are getting more use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What a dumb post, "alot of stuff, all at once" boohoo you have to spend some time building some rts, other then that, basically nothing, you should be out attacking alien rts so that those aliens cant just sit around killing your stuff....problem is people like you don't get what your supposed to be doing.
If it takes you 6 cysts to get to the closest rt, then thats a 60% increased cost compared to a marine RT, if you think thats insignificant, you really don't understand the game at all, without even discussing how many cysts it takes to go somewhere like pipeline to cargo.
They get their sentries for free....*facepalm*.
They get their sentries for free....*facepalm*.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But cysts are tres, not pres.
Also, if every marine was just sprinting through the map for offense you'd have nothing built? What, leave one marine behind to get ambushed? Hope he has good aim.
So sure there's a cost difference there in tres that impacts early game, but there's no denying that aliens typically don't need to spend more man power than a gorge on development of structures / forward bases. The team just attacks or defends.
This is asymmetrical and intentional.. but it lends to a bit of handicap if you really consider what each team's individual player has for responsibilities early game. Remember the days when the round started with all rooms powered and socketed? Skulks would run about disabling rooms for the first 60 seconds. something less mundane but equally contributing to your team's success besides merely zerging would be really cool to see some day.
My suggestion: start the round with a free mac... it alleviated this same issue a long time ago in beta, but was taken away once drifters became important, iirc
<b>The Auto Construction Kit</b>
- when placed on an unbuild building: will slowly build the building (like an unhealed alien building)
- available at Armorys for a apropriate cost of PRES (maybe 5 or so) right from the start
- 1 time use per buy
points in question:
(- buildings which are build by Auto Construction Kits can't be build by marines anymore (should prevent faster marine expansion))
(- become unavailable with 2nd CC (should prevent easier forward attack base building))
(- only usable with extractors, unbuild/undestroyed powernodes (see both points above))
(- buildings which are auto constructed are more vulnerable to attacks (prevent marines swarming the map, auto building every RT))
That would make it easier for Marines to defend RTs in early game and expand quicker ("AutoBuild Topo RT", "Push to Nano/C-12") and gives them more freedom for other tasks (harrass, attack, scout, egglock, ...).
Just an idea. I also like cyst building gorges. =)
ALTERNATIVELY: make mines available from the start and invisible in alien vision (why is that anyway?).
Then the MAC becomes the linchpin of the marine team. A very weak, vulnerable, easy to kill linchpin.
Better one MAC than none at all.
As for balance, there needs indeed to be a somewhat nerf to aliens.
<ul><li>Make Harvesters grow even slower (maybe 10-15 seconds), to increase the requirement for an early Gorge.</li><li>Require more advanced lifeforms to be researched, and tie the available ones to the number of Hives. Fades have to be researched for 25 res at the first Hive, Onos need 50 res at the second Hive.</li><li>Link alien upgrades to the Hive they were researched in, so killing the Hive will require to re-research the upgrades. To make up for it, aliens could put their more important upgrades into the Hive that they consider to be the safest and will be able to still use those upgrades in case of losing the other (second) Hive. The price for putting all upgrades in a single well-defended Hive is that they can only research one thing at a time in that Hive and thus it takes longer to get everything.</li></ul>
A further buff to marines would be to allow them to choose their desired destination when using a Phase Gate.
Thats a band aid approach, and it can cause more problems than solutions.