...What the fuck are you talking about? Just because it was removed doesn't mean it was an exploit, if the devs didn't say it was an exploit, then changed it, that automatically makes it an exploit?
You and numerous others said that an exploit is something not intended by the developers. One way you like to demonstrate the lack of intention is whether or not is is removed.
The MAV was never intended to kill people, and was removed, but it took a very long time for it to happen. So what category does it fall into.
I understand what you're SAYING now, but as to your implication, no, I don't agree with you. It was exploiting, it is no longer possible. So what? I don't get your point, you point out an exploit in another game, and this means....what exactly?
I understand what you're SAYING now, but as to your implication, no, I don't agree with you. It was exploiting, it is no longer possible. So what? I don't get your point, you point out an exploit in another game, and this means....what exactly?
It was certainly an exploit by most definitions, but they never removed it. They had the resources and the opportunities to remove it. They even made explicit changes to the MAV itself, but never removed the ability to kill with it. All the indications that, although it was technically an exploit, it was an accepted one (like bhopping is, and many people stopped considering bhopping an exploit simply because it wasn't removed). Then all of a sudden the MAV's ability to kill was removed.
So in this case, was it an exploit? Was it not an exploit, and then suddenly became an exploit? What would have instigated such a change? Does whatever instigated the change bring new considerations into the definitions of what an exploit is?
I understand what you're SAYING now, but as to your implication, no, I don't agree with you. It was exploiting, it is no longer possible. So what? I don't get your point, you point out an exploit in another game, and this means....what exactly?
It was certainly an exploit by most definitions, but they never removed it. They had the resources and the opportunities to remove it. They even made explicit changes to the MAV itself, but never removed the ability to kill with it. All the indications that, although it was technically an exploit, it was an accepted one (like bhopping is, and many people stopped considering bhopping an exploit simply because it wasn't removed). Then all of a sudden the MAV's ability to kill was removed.
So in this case, was it an exploit? Was it not an exploit, and then suddenly became an exploit? What would have instigated such a change? Does whatever instigated the change bring new considerations into the definitions of what an exploit is?
It was an exploit, stop trying to confuse the issue.
EA are just really slack about addressing things like this, look at how they treat hackers. Do they ban their account? No they just rest stats.
Bunnyhopping was an exploit in NS.
It was a HL engine exploit but not an NS exploit. With NS is arguably left in by design (as other games made it impossible to do (day of defeat)) and the designers deliberately left it in.
When it came to NS2 and they built their own engine they took it out, does not mean it was an exploit in NS.
Bunnyhopping was an exploit in NS.
It was a HL engine exploit but not an NS exploit. With NS is arguably left in by design (as other games made it impossible to do (day of defeat)) and the designers deliberately left it in.
When it came to NS2 and they built their own engine they took it out, does not mean it was an exploit in NS.
This. Rocket Jumping was technically an exploit too.
Exploit is a funny term. It can be applied retroactively. I also feel it is a bit more heavily used by the player base than developers. I had a conversation with a DoD dev (this was pertaining to the door bash in L4D, on No Mercy):
Dev: BTW...Exploiting is not "cheating" although some servers will ban people for using known exploits. Cheating is using additional client or server programs/code/plug-ins to force a change to the game itself that gives a player or team an advantage.
Me: That's a rather narrow definition of cheating. I am surprised a mod/dev would take such a stance. I really cannot wrap my head around how using exploits could NOT be cheating. I guess in the strictest, most literal sense of the word, it's not cheating. But I can't see how someone could view the use of exploits as anything but dishonest. Does not the use of the "door" in NM3 give "a player or team an advantage"? It was absolutely not an intended feature. If it was, we would see, at the very least, tool tips advising us to "Try breaking down doors for shortcuts." Or, if it was an intended feature, a post from a dev saying so. It can only be surmised from the dev silence that it IS a bug. Dev silence on these matters usually means "we know, we do not want to give it any voice to try to not attract attention" (not that this works, as we can see).
Me: So, XXXXXX, is this a personal stance or a company stance?
Dev: Personal but widely accepted. The rationale is simple...if the developers left something in they shouldn't it's not the players fault for using it. Might be bad gamesmanship, might get you banned from certain servers...but it's not cheating. Cheating has always been defined as changing the server or client configuration to give you an advantage (like hacks to see through walls or uncloak a spy in TF2) in-game.
So, yea. Personally I think taking advantage of exploits is poor gamesmanship. But I also think that people that call bunny hopping or rocket jumping like things (obviously unintended circumstances) exploits are taking the scrub route.
If it is in the game, use it. If the developers label it an exploit but have not removed it yet, don't use it. If you use it after it has been labeled an exploit, you are a poor sport and I wouldn't want to play with you.
Only the developers can label something an exploit though, not the community.
Pistol scripting/marcoing is an exploit, I remember in NS 1 they even added more code into the game which I think limited it to 3 commands (Holy fuck the tears that were shed were delicious), pistols were 3 shots and all bhop macros to mwheel down or up were set to 3 jumps, didn't eliminate it but it hampered it somewhat. It's bullshit from a game play and a design perspective, pistol is intentionally semi automatic with higher damage than the LMG, you have to track and click LMB for each bullet, it's a trade off, higher damage for higher player skill.
Macroing/scripting completely fucks this up, made even worse with interp/lap comp of NS2, now you only have to be accurate for 1 pistol shot to hit 3-5 instead, less effort, a lot less skill, more dmg/reward. It's a never ending slippery slope of technicalities and "what ifs" of what you'll allow when you condone scripting that breaks mechanics, note I had no beef with bhop scripts because it was a supported mechanic that helped that lazy/new players use a high skill ceiling feature, sure they could bhop easy but it didn't mean they'd learn bhop routes or how to abuse it really well in certain maps/areas without a lot of skill/time.
Wall sliding is the only other exploit I can think of, only spot that really annoys me is marines sliding up that wheel thing in C12 res in veil since the other one in shipping? got removed in crevice, it's a fucked spot as aliens since 9/10 you peek over the wall for a para/sight of marine but a guy on top of that thing will catch you coming and going and I doubt it's intended.
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, I've seen your topics and they're pretty much all the time - whiiiiiiiiiiiiiine, whiiiiiiiiiiiine and whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine more. How 'bout you stop posting all this dogs shit?
No offense, really, but... umm...
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, I've seen your topics and they're pretty much all the time - whiiiiiiiiiiiiiine, whiiiiiiiiiiiine and whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine more. How 'bout you stop posting all this dogs shit?
No offense, really, but... umm...
...you seem to be a dickhead.
Of course I welcome any way in which to improve myself as a person. If you might include a quote or two of something particularly dickheadish that I said, so that I might identify the problem areas and make the necessary adjustments.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
I'll say this once. Remain civil in this discussion; debating what is and is not an exploit is entirely possible, but if I see any more insults being thrown around, those at-fault will receive consequences, rather than getting the thread locked.
I agree about the pistol scripting being an exploit. I think a hard cap on fire rate needs to be put in place, or the current one needs to be tightened a bit. This seems to be too fast:
I agree about the pistol scripting being an exploit. I think a hard cap on fire rate needs to be put in place, or the current one needs to be tightened a bit. This seems to be too fast:
I remember a thread on this topic some time ago, with someone claimed that there was a hardcap of something like 1 shot every 100 miliseconds, but that pistol scripts were circumventing this somehow, and he was able to empty a clip in well under 500ms on video.
The speed in your video seems... "acceptable" to me. I'm sure it would be difficult for a human to fire that consistently, but I think it is possible to empty a clip that fast once in a while. The thread I mentioned first had someone post a video of a clip being emptied roughly the speed you posted, then a second where it was emptied in half the time. Not sure how though.
Exploiting a map and other things such as bunny-hopping is always going to occur in all games. People will eventually find exploits which developers may or may not eventually iron out. At least these can be implemented by all players on the server which still maintains a balanced playing field.
On the other hand, scripts such as pistol scripts and pink skulk scripts are blatant, intentionally applied modifications (Or hacks). Anybody that thinks these are not cheating is only fooling themselves.
My opinion is that any modification that creates an unfair advantage for one player which other players do not have is cheating.
Personally I think you exploit the kind nature of these forum mods.
I think UWE is great at listening to a wide-range of their customers and actually want to improve their game and keep it supported. The quick fix for the previous build that let aliens evolve all upgrades comes to recent memory. Even that I wouldn't call an 'exploit' since it was obviously a bug that was quickly fixed.
I think anything that's currently able to be performed in-game without outside help isn't an 'exploit'. I'm also sure that the high level competitive teams and players know alot more about in-game things they can take advantage of than what I do, but I don't think they are 'exploiting'.
To me an exploit is the pistol script, or a mod like the pink skulks which give unfair advantage against someone that is just using set game mechanics/textures.
Comments
You and numerous others said that an exploit is something not intended by the developers. One way you like to demonstrate the lack of intention is whether or not is is removed.
The MAV was never intended to kill people, and was removed, but it took a very long time for it to happen. So what category does it fall into.
Do you understand now?
Is this thread getting saged?
It was certainly an exploit by most definitions, but they never removed it. They had the resources and the opportunities to remove it. They even made explicit changes to the MAV itself, but never removed the ability to kill with it. All the indications that, although it was technically an exploit, it was an accepted one (like bhopping is, and many people stopped considering bhopping an exploit simply because it wasn't removed). Then all of a sudden the MAV's ability to kill was removed.
So in this case, was it an exploit? Was it not an exploit, and then suddenly became an exploit? What would have instigated such a change? Does whatever instigated the change bring new considerations into the definitions of what an exploit is?
On bunnyhopping, this is THE example of an exploit that the community accepted as good.
It was an exploit, stop trying to confuse the issue.
EA are just really slack about addressing things like this, look at how they treat hackers. Do they ban their account? No they just rest stats.
Bunnyhopping was an exploit in NS.
It was a HL engine exploit but not an NS exploit. With NS is arguably left in by design (as other games made it impossible to do (day of defeat)) and the designers deliberately left it in.
When it came to NS2 and they built their own engine they took it out, does not mean it was an exploit in NS.
This. Rocket Jumping was technically an exploit too.
Exploit is a funny term. It can be applied retroactively. I also feel it is a bit more heavily used by the player base than developers. I had a conversation with a DoD dev (this was pertaining to the door bash in L4D, on No Mercy):
So, yea. Personally I think taking advantage of exploits is poor gamesmanship. But I also think that people that call bunny hopping or rocket jumping like things (obviously unintended circumstances) exploits are taking the scrub route.
If it is in the game, use it. If the developers label it an exploit but have not removed it yet, don't use it. If you use it after it has been labeled an exploit, you are a poor sport and I wouldn't want to play with you.
Only the developers can label something an exploit though, not the community.
Macroing/scripting completely fucks this up, made even worse with interp/lap comp of NS2, now you only have to be accurate for 1 pistol shot to hit 3-5 instead, less effort, a lot less skill, more dmg/reward. It's a never ending slippery slope of technicalities and "what ifs" of what you'll allow when you condone scripting that breaks mechanics, note I had no beef with bhop scripts because it was a supported mechanic that helped that lazy/new players use a high skill ceiling feature, sure they could bhop easy but it didn't mean they'd learn bhop routes or how to abuse it really well in certain maps/areas without a lot of skill/time.
Wall sliding is the only other exploit I can think of, only spot that really annoys me is marines sliding up that wheel thing in C12 res in veil since the other one in shipping? got removed in crevice, it's a fucked spot as aliens since 9/10 you peek over the wall for a para/sight of marine but a guy on top of that thing will catch you coming and going and I doubt it's intended.
No offense, really, but... umm...
...you seem to be a dickhead.
Of course I welcome any way in which to improve myself as a person. If you might include a quote or two of something particularly dickheadish that I said, so that I might identify the problem areas and make the necessary adjustments.
Much appreciated.
I remember a thread on this topic some time ago, with someone claimed that there was a hardcap of something like 1 shot every 100 miliseconds, but that pistol scripts were circumventing this somehow, and he was able to empty a clip in well under 500ms on video.
The speed in your video seems... "acceptable" to me. I'm sure it would be difficult for a human to fire that consistently, but I think it is possible to empty a clip that fast once in a while. The thread I mentioned first had someone post a video of a clip being emptied roughly the speed you posted, then a second where it was emptied in half the time. Not sure how though.
On the other hand, scripts such as pistol scripts and pink skulk scripts are blatant, intentionally applied modifications (Or hacks). Anybody that thinks these are not cheating is only fooling themselves.
My opinion is that any modification that creates an unfair advantage for one player which other players do not have is cheating.
Flame suit on.
Personally I think you exploit the kind nature of these forum mods.
I think UWE is great at listening to a wide-range of their customers and actually want to improve their game and keep it supported. The quick fix for the previous build that let aliens evolve all upgrades comes to recent memory. Even that I wouldn't call an 'exploit' since it was obviously a bug that was quickly fixed.
I think anything that's currently able to be performed in-game without outside help isn't an 'exploit'. I'm also sure that the high level competitive teams and players know alot more about in-game things they can take advantage of than what I do, but I don't think they are 'exploiting'.
To me an exploit is the pistol script, or a mod like the pink skulks which give unfair advantage against someone that is just using set game mechanics/textures.