Your opinion on concede

bdawg88bdawg88 Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182915Members
Most of the games I play, as soon as the first sign we are loosing everyone jumps to concede, back in NS1 we didn't have such a thing, and some of the best games were as a result of an epic comeback, I would like to see the feature removed, what are your thoughts?
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Comments

  • FappuchinoFappuchino Join Date: 2012-10-10 Member: 162008Members
    edited February 2013
    Giving the, uh, indelible snowball nature of the game, it's a must I guess? It's incredibly unsatisfying however. I like the idea of a small cutscene, like of a CC exploding, or a hive dying.
    Something needs to be added though, like smack-talk from marines too, or aliens that chuckle and growl in celebration.

    *LOSING, LOSING, DAMNIT OP.
  • bdawg88bdawg88 Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182915Members
    edited February 2013
    Then why not just F4 if its that bad? Sell the IP's? The concept of concede encourages players to give up and the quality of players goes down. On a side note if concede wasn't there the marines might learn how to AIM better.
  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    edited February 2013
    I don't think it's a terrible idea, but no one knows when games are actually over so it creates this losing mentality where people want to concede and people who know better want to continue - or vice versa. it's probably not a fault of the mechanic it just seems like NS2's gameplay isn't really rigid enough to have it in place
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Has made ending winnable games possible, and common. Quite annoying, also bad for game practice, never get to practice fade if people just surrender around the same time every game.

    Games that WERE bad enough, people just F4'd before, but it was a lot less common.
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I can get a feel for when concede is necessary. It's just like a sixth sense, ya know?
  • bdawg88bdawg88 Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182915Members
    Unfortunately the vast majority don't have said sixth sense. As stated before it is annoying to many players, there are already ways to end a game early.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    Used at all the wrong times and never used when it's actually needed. Still, it's better than the alternatives. Maybe if they could come up with a better system that actually enhances gameplay rather than simply being the lesser evil.
  • bdawg88bdawg88 Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182915Members
    Out of curiosity what is the percentage of players needed for concede to work?
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    The problem isn't concede at all. Concede was a band-aid to fix symptoms of gameplay problems. What problems are those?

    First, there are many times in the game when you reach a point where you can NOT win. This is usually the marines, but aliens have it too. The problem is that when a team is no longer able to win, the game should END. If your team's actions have caused irreparable damage to your chances to win, then the game should end.

    No one likes playing a game they know they are going to lose.

    For example, if - for the marines - losing your second comm chair and tech point means you have lost, then end the game.

    I'm quite happy to use concede in games where I know the team is fighting for something they will never have. When you have an alien team with 4 Onos and you're down to your last tech point, what is the value in playing for another 15 minutes when you will still lose?

    This has been a problem for a while now, and I know the developers are aware of it and they are considering options.

    Secondly, NS2 has very little forgiveness. For example, if on the marine team you build three extractors, and they are killed within a minute of being built, the game is over. You won't recover from that since you are now about 5 minutes behind the alien team and they likely have 5+ harvesters. It's over, and you haven't even reached the 5 minute mark in the game. Or aliens have rushed your spawn and taken out your IP and armory before your team can get back, and when they are busy rebuilding the aliens kill both marine extractors that have been built. That's game over folks. Is there some reason to play for 15 minutes until you get rolled by an Onos parade?

    So yeah, I support concede.

  • bdawg88bdawg88 Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182915Members
    edited February 2013
    Its a lot easier to use the other methods to end the game early "push F4 its over" or "sell the ips", rather than "push x open menu click vote concede" and it just encourages people to give up and player quality and game quality goes down as a result.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    Savant wrote: »
    The problem isn't concede at all. Concede was a band-aid to fix symptoms of gameplay problems. What problems are those?

    First, there are many times in the game when you reach a point where you can NOT win. This is usually the marines, but aliens have it too. The problem is that when a team is no longer able to win, the game should END. If your team's actions have caused irreparable damage to your chances to win, then the game should end.

    No one likes playing a game they know they are going to lose.

    For example, if - for the marines - losing your second comm chair and tech point means you have lost, then end the game.

    I'm quite happy to use concede in games where I know the team is fighting for something they will never have. When you have an alien team with 4 Onos and you're down to your last tech point, what is the value in playing for another 15 minutes when you will still lose?

    This has been a problem for a while now, and I know the developers are aware of it and they are considering options.

    Secondly, NS2 has very little forgiveness. For example, if on the marine team you build three extractors, and they are killed within a minute of being built, the game is over. You won't recover from that since you are now about 5 minutes behind the alien team and they likely have 5+ harvesters. It's over, and you haven't even reached the 5 minute mark in the game. Or aliens have rushed your spawn and taken out your IP and armory before your team can get back, and when they are busy rebuilding the aliens kill both marine extractors that have been built. That's game over folks. Is there some reason to play for 15 minutes until you get rolled by an Onos parade?

    So yeah, I support concede.

    A one base turtle like you described is like a 99.999% chance to lose, the only things that could actually save it are at best illegitimate. Either people quit or quit trying or someone else joins who completely outclasses the other team. I don't think a last minute join is really fair even ignoring the fact that I don't think someone joining who outclasses everyone else by enough to pull something like that off is fair to start with.

    Losing your extractors like you describe is more like a 90-95% chance to lose. It hurts, and coming back is unlikely, but it is certainly possible. Same with your IP scenario.

    The game needs better comeback mechanics. Surviving a last stand for long enough should provide you with some method of escaping it for starters. They could also potentially tweak things like res flow so that early losses are only a temporary setback rather than a snowball. That would go for both teams.
  • WhiteWeaselWhiteWeasel Join Date: 2012-11-25 Member: 173197Members
    I don't like it, ruins the fun for the dominant team and ruins the chances of comeback for the losing one.
  • pearlykpearlyk Join Date: 2013-01-19 Member: 180732Members
    edited February 2013
    Should we really play 30min games that were decided by the first five minutes?

    I agree that comebacks are cool and all, but they don't happen out of nowhere, there is no coming back if you don't have a second hive and have only celerity against a3/w3 jp shotguns.

    Or if you are a marine a0/w0, 2 rts max and fighting lerks and fades.

    Even though concede might make epic comebacks not happen, in my opinion the better option is to just play a new round/map.
  • WillzZzWillzZz Join Date: 2013-01-31 Member: 182667Members
    Unfortunately the game loses a lot of its interest for me as it progresses. Late game is much less satisfying than early game. I'm guessing others feel similarly. Particularly frustrating is the prevalence of one-shotting in the late game. The popularity of concede indicates a problem with fun in the late game, not a problem with the concede mechanic. They would just be hitting f4, or quitting the game entirely if it wasn't there.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    I have a very different experience. In games I play, everyone is just so hesitant to concede, and it annoys me.

    Honestly, if 80% of your team wants to concede, then there is essentially no chance of pulling that game back from the brink. People actually need to want to win in order for that to happen.
  • CalegoCalego Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester
    I was a fan of concede when it came out, nothing much more disheartening than hearing the IPs being recycled. The diplomatic method that comes out of vote conceding is great IMO. However, now that its been around and everyone is used to it, I very much dislike it. Primarily on rookie friendly servers.

    I don't delude myself into thinking that a truly losing team can make a comeback, that's not why I play on in a turtle. I find turtles immensely fun, to a point.

    Late-game skills are lacking enough in the NS2 community. If all a rookie ever plays is a game that gets conceded, how will they ever know what the end game looks like?

    Furthermore, there's a superior learning curve in this game. Not just in the novel idea of teamwork, but in getting a feel for the weapons and positions. So in my opinion, any second a rookie gets to get acquainted with the later game is a good second.

    So on your standard non-rookie servers, go ahead and concede, you know that the game's over and you're all eager to get a new one started. You don't need the practice desperately. On the rookie servers, don't pressure the greenies to concede, especially if the game is like 5 minutes from being over. You can expedite the game end in other ways, order an all out assault on a least defended hive, make a push and leave the base fully exposed. Explain that its a horrible idea, but the game's over so we might as well take a hive down with us. Have fun with it. It is a game.
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members
    ScardyBob wrote: »
    Vote concede is fine, but the actual ending experience probably needs adjusting. My thoughts are
    - Show each team how close they are to a successful vote concede
    - Change the ending from instant to quickly inevitable (e.g. disabling spawning, stopping res flow, increasing damage taken for team that concedes)

    I think alerting both teams that a concede vote is underway is needed at the very least..would make it less of a surprise when it happens.
    Perhaps a timer for 2 min is applied upon concede being voted in...before an alien bio-bomb or marine nuke hits the map.

    Personally I dont like f4, recycle or concede but concede is the best of the 3 choices.
    F4 means autobalance which means you make someone on the winning side sit out and wait.
    Recycle can only be done by 1 team and requires only 1 persons opinion to be considered.
    Concede requires the majority of a team has voted for it.

    Whilst I would rather the game got played out I would take a concede vote over watching the server empty as people rage quit.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think I've seen like 3 concessions total since it was put in? Leave it, it's definitely not a problem.
  • bdawg88bdawg88 Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182915Members
    edited February 2013
    Some good points hakenspit, perhaps just a bit of tweaking it, and possibly make rookie servers not have the option to concede. What are your thoughts on if a concede is successful, then a second one is required after 5-10 minutes to give people a chance, then they will play to their absolute best ability could be fun? Also for the guy that just evolved to fade wouldn't mind enjoying his earned res?
  • pearlykpearlyk Join Date: 2013-01-19 Member: 180732Members
    Also I think there's nothing "morally wrong" with conceding.

    For example SC2 (well, any game really), as soon as the game is "over" the losing player calls gg.

    it's not about giving up, it's about not wasting time for both sides.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Practicing my fade for 10 minutes, even if marines have no hope of ever winning, is NOT wasting my time. Before you say it, no it's not all about me, sometimes someone else is in my place and I'm in theirs. (Note not alien specific, if someone was going to bring that up as well).
  • bdawg88bdawg88 Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182915Members
    I disagree regarding morality, if you are going to start something be it a home project or a game there's no point if you don't finish it. It annoys the winning team to no end.
  • pearlykpearlyk Join Date: 2013-01-19 Member: 180732Members
    You practice your fade against people who can't defend themselves?

    That's sounds really boring and painful for the marine team.

  • MavickMavick Join Date: 2012-11-07 Member: 168138Members
    It's shocking, because I know there are some pretty intelligent people on these forums. The fact that something like this has had this many comments is a bit sad.

    In a nutshell, what you guys are discusssing is a feature that WE as PLAYERS control. It's not like the game forces concede on a team, the players do that. If there truly are enough people that agree with it being a bad feature, it would not be used. If it is being used, then obviously more people do not agree, accept it and move on with your life.

    And yes, I know there are those people that are going to throw in the towel at the first sign. Nothing you say is going to change that except you and a few other resourceful people showing them that comebacks are possible. But even then, there are always going to be those types of people. It's a fact of life, deal with it.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Yesterday, we had a game where we were losing badly, we even started to thinking about surrender when suddenly, we won the match - the other team conceded. They thought they are the ones losing.
  • deathshrouddeathshroud Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Members
    i think it should be kept, however i agree some of the best games i have had have been when your loosing but manage to turn it around and if you concede to early you will never experience those games.
  • pearlykpearlyk Join Date: 2013-01-19 Member: 180732Members
    bdawg88 wrote: »
    I disagree regarding morality, if you are going to start something be it a home project or a game there's no point if you don't finish it. It annoys the winning team to no end.

    I guess it's a personal thing then?

    For me, when the enemy team concedes it is just another win.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited February 2013
    pearlyk wrote: »
    You practice your fade against people who can't defend themselves?

    That's sounds really boring and painful for the marine team.

    Of course they can defend them selves, if they couldn't it wouldn't be practice.
    Mavick wrote: »
    It's shocking, because I know there are some pretty intelligent people on these forums. The fact that something like this has had this many comments is a bit sad.

    In a nutshell, what you guys are discusssing is a feature that WE as PLAYERS control. It's not like the game forces concede on a team, the players do that. If there truly are enough people that agree with it being a bad feature, it would not be used. If it is being used, then obviously more people do not agree, accept it and move on with your life.

    And yes, I know there are those people that are going to throw in the towel at the first sign. Nothing you say is going to change that except you and a few other resourceful people showing them that comebacks are possible. But even then, there are always going to be those types of people. It's a fact of life, deal with it.

    Yeah it is player controlled, the feature doesn't bother me, players do, that can't be changed obviously, but it's a thread for DISCUSSION about concede, and imo, sometimes it sucks. Still a good feature though.
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