Concede is good in general, but when our team concedes prematurely, it's really bad.
We still have two hives and marines didn't bother to build IPs at any other base. Bile main base while they are too busy pushing - easy win. But but noooo, 'they got exos, we have no chance', conceded before I evolved into gorge.
I turned many lost games but building ninja PGs. You build ninja pg, you take out hive in seconds, you drop second base there - and you suddenly have a chance. Too bad sneaking into enemy territory takes time and chances are team would concede before that could even happen.
My ultimate opinion on concede is this, If the other team has won and is a mere few minutes from finishing it.... LET THEM FINISH IT. they beat you. they deserve the fun of finishing you. If the game is stalling out with a hard turtle..... concede if you have no chance.
Vote concede is fine, but the actual ending experience probably needs adjusting. My thoughts are
- Show each team how close they are to a successful vote concede
- Change the ending from instant to quickly inevitable (e.g. disabling spawning, stopping res flow, increasing damage taken for team that concedes)
A counter might be ok (or at least a notification that someone has voted to surrender), but changing the vote to end the game to a vote to disable res flow or to increase the damage taken is one of the worst ideas ever.
Surrender voting is probably one of the best features that's happened to NS2 ever. It was SORELY needed and implemented VERY late - same as "game doesn't start until commanders" and we still don't have mapvote/kickvote/motd/randomvote etc. etc. etc.
Vote kick would be nice. It's frustrating when you get a troll on the marine side who hops in CC and sells everything the first chance he gets. The only way to stop it is find a new server.
Vote kick would be nice. It's frustrating when you get a troll on the marine side who hops in CC and sells everything the first chance he gets. The only way to stop it is find a new server.
Gee...those railgun exos look pretty sweet. Too bad the aliens will have likely conceded if your doing well enough to get exos. Or concede as soon as they see them.
Edit: removed the video I found because I might have revealed something too early.
I don't know if there's a suitable middle ground for NS2, but I kind of liked what HoN did with its concede. When the vote passes, the game goes into snowball mode where the winners receive overwhelming advantage and are usually able to finish the game within a few minutes max.
Obviously it's still kind of waste of time after the concede, but I think in HoN they managed to find quite an acceptable combination that didn't feel too much of a chore and yet managed to give the game a much better storyline conclusion.
I don't know if there's a suitable middle ground for NS2, but I kind of liked what HoN did with its concede. When the vote passes, the game goes into snowball mode where the winners receive overwhelming advantage and are usually able to finish the game within a few minutes max.
Obviously it's still kind of waste of time after the concede, but I think in HoN they managed to find quite an acceptable combination that didn't feel too much of a chore and yet managed to give the game a much better storyline conclusion.
This makes a lot of sense, even more so if a time limit is added. Basically give the "winning" team an enormous advantage, but if they don't finish the game within <x> minutes, they end up losing, to prevent the now OP team from trolling.
Something like, 2x hp and 2x damage to all aliens, and then if the marines hold out for longer than 2 minutes they wi-...well maybe not win, but just a "Draw!" ?
Same for marines too, and maybe 2x speed because rines have toddley feet. :P
I remember NS1 as a game with awesome 4 hour games over and over again. Everyone gave 150% until the end. Comebacks were legendary and the player spirits high. Even losing a round was surprisingly fun. Remember to "lose" a game after 12 mins and still manage to build a whole base into a vent system, hold a single RT for 30 mins, research HAs and HA train rush the alien hives? Yes, turning a lose into a victory was able in many ways back then and even doing a screwed up but funny relocate leading to utter defeat was a challange, something new and fun! We played those rounds and not a single guy would get his annoyingly loud voice out and spam concede demands after the first RT got destroyed. Those games where decided by skill AND fighting spirit. A concede option destroys that spirit and teaches to choose the easy way out.
The reasons those epic comebacks *FOR MARINES* happened in NS1 was due primarily to the following:
a) res for kills meaning you really could hold down a single res node and stack up HA/HMG
b) not requiring tech points or power nodes for a CC (so you could hold the best possible camping spot/hardest to attack spot for aliens)
c) not requiring 2 tech points for HA/JP
It's still possible for marines to do epic comebacks in NS2, though this is more rare for the reasons above.
I never saw anything like the same number of comebacks for aliens in either NS1 or NS2. It is SO MUCH EASIER for a dominant marine team to finish aliens off in both NS1 and NS2 than it is for aliens, all other things being equal. The power node and tech point system actually helps aliens finish games a fair bit in NS2, but they do still need some game ending tech updates.
The concede option is a bit frustrating when you're preparing to storm the last hive and win in a blaze of glory as marines, but it's a victory: you've pushed the other team to 'tapping out' - well played. I've not yet seen it used prematurely (others have it seems, but I wonder how prevalent that is?). It's FAR better than F4, which forces long respawns on the winning team which drags the game on longer, or recycling, which is most often just trolling by 1 fed up marine. Concede is a good thing to have available.
I would like to see some mechanism by which comebacks can occur more easily when the balance of power is still shifting in a game - ie don't have such a predictable slippery slope, which is the least fun for aliens but still not great for marines when it happens. To counter this, I would like to see a dominant team get REAL game ending tech when their opponents are down to 1 tech point and they hold at least 3.
Roo
/thread
Most of these fond comeback memories are slathered in nostalgia sauce.
Was it fun building a base in a vent (Red Room anyone?) somewhere? Eking out a meager living off RFK, scrounging for that HMG or GL that would get passed around the marine team like a family heirloom. Hoping to get enough Res for a ninja PG in a corner somewhere...
Yea, for a little while, for marines, maybe. But it was long and dragged out. And it wasn't nearly as fun for the aliens.
Anything added to NS2 to help end the game faster for the winning team would be good, and anything that wouldn't interminably drag out the end game, while still making it fun to lose, would be welcome.
Concede vote is fine.
F4 to concede is not fine, it punishes both teams.
I don't know if there's a suitable middle ground for NS2, but I kind of liked what HoN did with its concede. When the vote passes, the game goes into snowball mode where the winners receive overwhelming advantage and are usually able to finish the game within a few minutes max.
Obviously it's still kind of waste of time after the concede, but I think in HoN they managed to find quite an acceptable combination that didn't feel too much of a chore and yet managed to give the game a much better storyline conclusion.
This makes a lot of sense, even more so if a time limit is added. Basically give the "winning" team an enormous advantage, but if they don't finish the game within <x> minutes, they end up losing, to prevent the now OP team from trolling.
Yeah. In HoN the concede buffed the creeps so much that the game could basically finish without the winning team players involved, but I doubt that applies to NS.
Nevertheless, as long as the advantage is overwhelming enough, the worst thing I can see happening with a timer is a newbie team failing to find the enemy base in time or something like that.
We have a custom mod on our server which is triggered by concede. You also need more people to trigger it. It requires at most 1 hive/chair. A team has 2mins to destroy the other base or they lose. Only caviot is the losing team can't attack. I have only seen one loosing team win with this option.
My ultimate opinion on concede is this, If the other team has won and is a mere few minutes from finishing it.... LET THEM FINISH IT. they beat you. they deserve the fun of finishing you. If the game is stalling out with a hard turtle..... concede if you have no chance.
So im supposed to let a team get free kills while I sit in spawn for 5 minutes, because they "earned" it?
Nope! Gonna concede, and guess what, everyone else will too, because that isn't fun.
And before you ask, yes, I am fine with the other team conceding when their 2nd hive is killed. They have the sense to know that a win is so far out of reach it isn't even worth trying.
I don't know if there's a suitable middle ground for NS2, but I kind of liked what HoN did with its concede. When the vote passes, the game goes into snowball mode where the winners receive overwhelming advantage and are usually able to finish the game within a few minutes max.
Obviously it's still kind of waste of time after the concede, but I think in HoN they managed to find quite an acceptable combination that didn't feel too much of a chore and yet managed to give the game a much better storyline conclusion.
This makes a lot of sense, even more so if a time limit is added. Basically give the "winning" team an enormous advantage, but if they don't finish the game within <x> minutes, they end up losing, to prevent the now OP team from trolling.
Or just end the game after <x> minutes, with the winning team still winning, whether they've ended the game themselves or not?
I don't like changing the victory conditions partway through the game. I get what you're getting at, and it makes sense, and it probably wouldn't ever actually change the outcome, but something about it just seems wrong to me.
Ill never understand the appeal of mobas, you can tell when you're going to win within about 10 minutes, the next 20-40 are either realllllllly fun or extremely painful.
..everyone else.. If it would be everyone else, we wouldn't have this thread.
The last two days I saw roughly 60% of all rounds end with concede. If this would be a chess club, I would kick the kid in the balls that concedes so often. One team will always lose, so conceding every game is just a logical thing to do. Because it isn't fun to lose, right? Guess what, it is not always about YOUR OWN FUN but about the fun OTHER PEOPLE might have. This egocentrical "we give up"-attitude ruined 60% of the games I played. I am sick of it. It is damn boring to end a round like this!
Let's just randomly concede at the start of every round, would be the same amount of *fun* for me like it is now with all the voting. And we save time.
..everyone else.. If it would be everyone else, we wouldn't have this thread.
The last two days I saw roughly 60% of all rounds end with concede. If this would be a chess club, I would kick the kid in the balls that concedes so often. One team will always lose, so conceding every game is just a logical thing to do. Because it isn't fun to lose, right? Guess what, it is not always about YOUR OWN FUN but about the fun OTHER PEOPLE might have. This egocentrical "we give up"-attitude ruined 60% of the games I played. I am sick of it. It is damn boring to end a round like this!
Let's just randomly concede at the start of every round, would be the same amount of *fun* for me like it is now with all the voting. And we save time.
Unfortunately, when I am playing my game on my PC with my money and my resources, it is about my fun. Fortunately most of the pub games I am involved with are winning games.
Do you actually sit there when the marines are winning, will win, and are just toying with you, smiling like this 8) with your hands down your pants?
Read the posts, I bet you will get an idea why people want to play a round till the bitter end. And no, I don't sit there like a retard and smile. I give the opposite team hell as they deserve it.
I was ready to throw in the towel after our team was being out played, though during the long course of the game the bad players left and the good regulars came on. It is amazing to come back from aliens taking over the whole map. I think they got us down to 1 base. They had 3 hives.
..everyone else.. If it would be everyone else, we wouldn't have this thread.
The last two days I saw roughly 60% of all rounds end with concede. If this would be a chess club, I would kick the kid in the balls that concedes so often. One team will always lose, so conceding every game is just a logical thing to do. Because it isn't fun to lose, right? Guess what, it is not always about YOUR OWN FUN but about the fun OTHER PEOPLE might have. This egocentrical "we give up"-attitude ruined 60% of the games I played. I am sick of it. It is damn boring to end a round like this!
Let's just randomly concede at the start of every round, would be the same amount of *fun* for me like it is now with all the voting. And we save time.
Which team has more fun losing? Marines. I don't think many people would argue that.
In contrast, losing as aliens is really no fun at all.
If there were more fun in losing, less people would concede.
There is zero fun in being someone's punching bag, despite how hard they may have worked to get into the winning position. NoOne is obligated to stand there and take it in the teeth for your enjoyment. I can't see anything more egotistical than expecting someone to stay in a game and die repeatedly when they know the game is over.
That said, maybe there needs to be some more restrictions on when the concede option presents it's self. There is no fun when one team concedes at the first lost engagement.
Read the posts, I bet you will get an idea why people want to play a round till the bitter end. And no, I don't sit there like a retard and smile. I give the opposite team hell as they deserve it.
I'll be honest, when I am having a decent game, and I'm in some random server, and I'm egglocking them running a score like 35:2, when some dopey skulk manages to get a kill on me, the last thing I'm thinking is OH BOY HE SURE GAVE ME HELL, its:
Wow, so pitiful, and they aren't even conceding yet. The one thing we can agree on is that it's good concede is a vote.
I vote to move on to a better game, and you can choose to not vote, and continue to 8)
The problem is that if only a few vote for concede and 75% of the rest doesn't, it still succeeds. This is not a good system. And no, noone can be forced to play a game out, but courtesy would be to do so. If it is no fun to lose, then the game has to change and make it more interesting so less people will concede.
But I won't be silent if this thread gets generalized and people who doesn't want to concede are being insultet. There are obviously two parties with two opinions on the subject. Finding a dialogou instead of dictating one is the better action!
Its the path of least resistance, to concede. If my team doesn't concede, I just F4 and hope more come with, if they dont after a minute or two, new server time.
Generally though, I don't return, the types of players that refuse to concede are usually the players that cost the team anyway
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I don't find it a courtesy when the opposing team concedes in a pub. (Because that's all this thread applies to)
I feel robbed of my end game typically, and that they gave up too easily (more so, lately)
If this becomes the de facto standard, tier 3 tech will become a rare thing.
I do like the"sudden death" suggestions tossed around.. just have to find a solution that can't be exploited easily.
Trouble is most pub games are decided early on, the game just drags on after and is no fun for the losing side. It's very rare I see a game go back and forth.
I like the system but dislike how it has been implemented. Now games that are clearly stacked when one team can't cant even get a get a 2nd tech point OR one team is just toying with the other racking up kills rather then trying to end it the system provides an awesome way to "F4" and still play while others are deciding.
BUT since it is so easy to use you see teams using it with 2 tech points remaining! I've played in more games then I can count now that ended in vote concede when both teams still actually had a shot at winning the game. It happens DAILY. Adding a option to see whos voting i do not believe will change this and if any thing I believe will make the problem worse since people tend to follow what others are doing.
However, no matter how much I dislike it I believe it's doing more good then harm at this very second. I see more stacked teams then even teams and this is providing a quick way to start the next round hoping for an even game. Hopefully the system gets modified some way though because I feel like I have been robbed every night of real victories and it unnecessarily ends games way too frequently. I would be all for increasing the res collection rate drastically for the winning team and give them 3 minutes to end the game or it ends it for every one. I would say have the other team win but I bet this could be used as a sneaky way to win.
If losing was still fun in some way, concede might be less frequent. Waiting to spawn for wave after wave as an alien as your base is camped, or not being able to leave your base for 5 mins while you turtle as marine are both terrible. I feel that whenever someone says their end game was cut short by concede, they forget that an equal number of players on the other side have to sit and get farmed while the winning side get coordinated enough to end it. If anything these concedes show the end game tech wasn't needed at all to win that game, and waiting for that tech is just drawing out the game.
I would wager that most conceded games are lost games because 1 side heavily out-skills the other. It isn't like the teams are evenly matched and the win could still go to either team. This is a pub, where getting even teams is more than likely not going to happen. The losing team isn't going to magically get better in the course of the game they are getting crushed in, and they probably aren't going to listen any better as the game progresses if that is the problem, either.
Comments
We still have two hives and marines didn't bother to build IPs at any other base. Bile main base while they are too busy pushing - easy win. But but noooo, 'they got exos, we have no chance', conceded before I evolved into gorge.
I turned many lost games but building ninja PGs. You build ninja pg, you take out hive in seconds, you drop second base there - and you suddenly have a chance. Too bad sneaking into enemy territory takes time and chances are team would concede before that could even happen.
A counter might be ok (or at least a notification that someone has voted to surrender), but changing the vote to end the game to a vote to disable res flow or to increase the damage taken is one of the worst ideas ever.
Surrender voting is probably one of the best features that's happened to NS2 ever. It was SORELY needed and implemented VERY late - same as "game doesn't start until commanders" and we still don't have mapvote/kickvote/motd/randomvote etc. etc. etc.
Edit: removed the video I found because I might have revealed something too early.
You've been playing different games to me! Average is about 20 minutes, 45 is unusual. I think I've had 2 or 3 games last over an hour.
Obviously it's still kind of waste of time after the concede, but I think in HoN they managed to find quite an acceptable combination that didn't feel too much of a chore and yet managed to give the game a much better storyline conclusion.
Something like, 2x hp and 2x damage to all aliens, and then if the marines hold out for longer than 2 minutes they wi-...well maybe not win, but just a "Draw!" ?
Same for marines too, and maybe 2x speed because rines have toddley feet. :P
/thread
Most of these fond comeback memories are slathered in nostalgia sauce.
Was it fun building a base in a vent (Red Room anyone?) somewhere? Eking out a meager living off RFK, scrounging for that HMG or GL that would get passed around the marine team like a family heirloom. Hoping to get enough Res for a ninja PG in a corner somewhere...
Yea, for a little while, for marines, maybe. But it was long and dragged out. And it wasn't nearly as fun for the aliens.
Anything added to NS2 to help end the game faster for the winning team would be good, and anything that wouldn't interminably drag out the end game, while still making it fun to lose, would be welcome.
Concede vote is fine.
F4 to concede is not fine, it punishes both teams.
Comm tyrannically recycling is not fine.
Yeah. In HoN the concede buffed the creeps so much that the game could basically finish without the winning team players involved, but I doubt that applies to NS.
Nevertheless, as long as the advantage is overwhelming enough, the worst thing I can see happening with a timer is a newbie team failing to find the enemy base in time or something like that.
Nope! Gonna concede, and guess what, everyone else will too, because that isn't fun.
And before you ask, yes, I am fine with the other team conceding when their 2nd hive is killed. They have the sense to know that a win is so far out of reach it isn't even worth trying.
Or just end the game after <x> minutes, with the winning team still winning, whether they've ended the game themselves or not?
I don't like changing the victory conditions partway through the game. I get what you're getting at, and it makes sense, and it probably wouldn't ever actually change the outcome, but something about it just seems wrong to me.
..everyone else.. If it would be everyone else, we wouldn't have this thread.
The last two days I saw roughly 60% of all rounds end with concede. If this would be a chess club, I would kick the kid in the balls that concedes so often. One team will always lose, so conceding every game is just a logical thing to do. Because it isn't fun to lose, right? Guess what, it is not always about YOUR OWN FUN but about the fun OTHER PEOPLE might have. This egocentrical "we give up"-attitude ruined 60% of the games I played. I am sick of it. It is damn boring to end a round like this!
Let's just randomly concede at the start of every round, would be the same amount of *fun* for me like it is now with all the voting. And we save time.
Unfortunately, when I am playing my game on my PC with my money and my resources, it is about my fun. Fortunately most of the pub games I am involved with are winning games.
Do you actually sit there when the marines are winning, will win, and are just toying with you, smiling like this 8) with your hands down your pants?
Which team has more fun losing? Marines. I don't think many people would argue that.
In contrast, losing as aliens is really no fun at all.
If there were more fun in losing, less people would concede.
There is zero fun in being someone's punching bag, despite how hard they may have worked to get into the winning position. No One is obligated to stand there and take it in the teeth for your enjoyment. I can't see anything more egotistical than expecting someone to stay in a game and die repeatedly when they know the game is over.
That said, maybe there needs to be some more restrictions on when the concede option presents it's self. There is no fun when one team concedes at the first lost engagement.
I'll be honest, when I am having a decent game, and I'm in some random server, and I'm egglocking them running a score like 35:2, when some dopey skulk manages to get a kill on me, the last thing I'm thinking is OH BOY HE SURE GAVE ME HELL, its:
Wow, so pitiful, and they aren't even conceding yet. The one thing we can agree on is that it's good concede is a vote.
I vote to move on to a better game, and you can choose to not vote, and continue to 8)
But I won't be silent if this thread gets generalized and people who doesn't want to concede are being insultet. There are obviously two parties with two opinions on the subject. Finding a dialogou instead of dictating one is the better action!
Generally though, I don't return, the types of players that refuse to concede are usually the players that cost the team anyway
That's certainly a contentious point, and perhaps the crux of the matter. Many people would say that courtesy would be to concede a lost game.
I think there's valid points on both sides. A good solution would address each side's points, and recognize that opinions and preferences differ.
I feel robbed of my end game typically, and that they gave up too easily (more so, lately)
If this becomes the de facto standard, tier 3 tech will become a rare thing.
I do like the"sudden death" suggestions tossed around.. just have to find a solution that can't be exploited easily.
BUT since it is so easy to use you see teams using it with 2 tech points remaining! I've played in more games then I can count now that ended in vote concede when both teams still actually had a shot at winning the game. It happens DAILY. Adding a option to see whos voting i do not believe will change this and if any thing I believe will make the problem worse since people tend to follow what others are doing.
However, no matter how much I dislike it I believe it's doing more good then harm at this very second. I see more stacked teams then even teams and this is providing a quick way to start the next round hoping for an even game. Hopefully the system gets modified some way though because I feel like I have been robbed every night of real victories and it unnecessarily ends games way too frequently. I would be all for increasing the res collection rate drastically for the winning team and give them 3 minutes to end the game or it ends it for every one. I would say have the other team win but I bet this could be used as a sneaky way to win.
I would wager that most conceded games are lost games because 1 side heavily out-skills the other. It isn't like the teams are evenly matched and the win could still go to either team. This is a pub, where getting even teams is more than likely not going to happen. The losing team isn't going to magically get better in the course of the game they are getting crushed in, and they probably aren't going to listen any better as the game progresses if that is the problem, either.