I'd just like to say, you must operate within the constraints of the game to a certain extent. The blinding effects do take away control to a certain extent, but it is an intended loss of control. I don't see how this is any different than say, group stuns in DOTA, or explosive bouncing in TF2. To a certain extent I don't see how this is any less egregious a design feature than a one-shot. Dying would be the ultimate loss of control after all, hell, SC2 has neural parasite, fungal spore, forcefields. Think of it as a debuff.
My point is, yes, it blocks your vision and makes you susceptible to other life forms, but isn't that the goal in a team-oriented fps? TF2 kritzkrieg and jarate for example. or a nicely positioned crossfire. That the OP thinks that it should be aim vs agility simply means that he has a different conception of what the game design is about than the developers. It's a valid argument, but I would suggest that it is better addressed in the context of tournament play, where balance is more of an issue, and don't misunderstand me, this is a balance issue. If all the competitive players believe that blinding effects are OP, then they should certainly petition UWE for a tournament exclusive option to remove, or have someone mod it out. I am certain that many competitive scenes use their own rulesets when they find unbalanced weapons/characters/maps in the vanilla game.
I like blind, it makes marines easier to kill, though it's not a sure thing, and I am happiest when i can blind a marine and make it easier for a skulk to kill him. Promoting team-play in a public context should not be discouraged. spores+umbra will not kill marines by themselves largely, so again, it promotes teamplay if I know that it messes with marine aim on my teammates.
sorry for the disjointed post, it is late.
I'm pretty sure all crowd control in DOTA lasts a few seconds a most, is subject to cooldowns, and isn't spammable like everything in NS2 is. When was the last time Marines had an ability that blinded Aliens? Kritzkreig and Jarate have chargeup/cooldown times as well, come at the expense of other loadouts, and at least let you see wtf is going on, which allows you to shoot back and dodge. I think a big part of the frustration here is that there is no bad time for spit/spore/etc. Because you can spam it and it's effective in every possible situation, there's zero tradeoffs involved. In DOTA or some other game, if I just use my stun at the first chance, I might not have it when I really need it to interrupt an enemy spell or peel for a carry. In NS2 there's practically never a time when I have to stop and ask myself "Should I spit him now, or do I need to conserve my spit?" Flinging poop at the Marines is always the right answer. Just about the only similar decision a Gorge has to made is whether to spit or bile bomb (Both of which obscure Marine vision anyways)
If spamming is the issue, why not look at tweaking the energy cost or RoF?
Are you admitting to all the upstanding people in this thread that you struggle to 1v1 a gorge as marine?
This isn't about me, it's about the game mechanic. I've held this opinion for quite some time, since I am not a fan of effects that cause a person to lose control of their avatar. Battles should be determined by player skill and not by which person's crowd control effect is the most powerful.
First of all, you're missing the point. Rifle butt made it damn near impossible for a skulk to beat a marine. As said previously, getting hit by it was a certified death sentence, as you then became immobile, leading to a swift and decisive death. If you want to say that "there's no difference between the two", then you are going to have to show how the gorge's blind mechanic causes the attacking marine to lose almost every single encounter. Otherwise, it simply is not the same at all.
Secondly, the concept that battles should be "determined by player skill" is highly ambiguous. There are many complications that arise when considering an assertion such as that one.
I mean, this game being as asymmetrical as it is, that already means that a massive number of encounters will strictly not be determined by player skill, in the narrow sense of the word you are using. There are lots of things to hide behind, there are big open spaces, there are cramped environments, there are badly lit areas. All these things sway the odds unevenly in one player or the other's favor, regardless of which is the most skilled.
Furthermore, surely every direction interaction the commander has influences this delicate skill vs skill balance that goes on between the players? Ok, so the gorge spitting and blinding a marine is detracting from the skill vs skill equilibrium, but what about the commander dropping a medpack? Isn't that just as bad? What about a commander getting more gun upgrades for his marines? Where is the skill now?
Limiting yourself to only considering "individual" or "tangible" skills is going to cause a lot of contradictions to arise when considering a game like NS2.
blargh, had the misfortune of running into tempest just now. i think he went 35-5 in the server, with a straight run of 15 kills around a growing hive, though that was partly our fault for going in piecemeal.
anyway. i'm convinced that not being able to see properly would pose only a minor inconvenience at that level. I'm saying that they can probably see through the blinding effect and kill you anyway. so this thread is simply bellyaching.
you can talk balance, the 30 damage is nice, but at the competitive level, i don't think a gorge is going to kill a marine much 1v1 anyway, so anything over 10 damage is going to be superfluous. at that level, the blinding effect is the main characteristic of that attack, whether to run or deter with hydra or do support/tank.
First of all, you're missing the point. Rifle butt made it damn near impossible for a skulk to beat a marine. As said previously, getting hit by it was a certified death sentence, as you then became immobile, leading to a swift and decisive death.
Let me be clear here, while I would support rifle butt knocking back a skulk, I would *NOT* support a stun. It's the exact reason I oppose blind.
A knockback alone doesn't take control away from the skulk. The skulk can still freely move and attack.
If you want to say that "there's no difference between the two", then you are going to have to show how the gorge's blind mechanic causes the attacking marine to lose almost every single encounter.
Against a gorge that actually attacks (and doesn't just flee) a gorge will win the vast majority of encounters. The only time the gorge usually dies is if you surprise him and get him near death before he retaliates, and you are able to shoot blindly and finish him. In that case the marine had the upper hand.
Secondly, the concept that battles should be "determined by player skill" is highly ambiguous.
Actually it is not ambiguous at all. It's extraordinarily simplistic. This is a game being played by people. The skill of those people will determine the outcome of any particular encounter. Take a skilled veteran and put him against a new player. Who will win a given encounter? The veteran. Even medpack spam shouldn't prevent a veteran skulk from killing a newbie marine.
Game variables should NOT come into play here. Why?
Well if game variables took away the benefit of 'player skill' in a game, then what you have left is luck. This isn't a board game where battles are determined by a roll of the dice.
There are lots of things to hide behind, there are big open spaces, there are cramped environments, there are badly lit areas. All these things sway the odds unevenly in one player or the other's favor, regardless of which is the most skilled.
Incorrect. A skilled player will take such variables into account when they play. That's what makes them skilled. If power is out in a room, a skilled player won't just blindly run in. An unskilled player might, and that is where that lack of skill will get him killed.
Ok, so the gorge spitting and blinding a marine is detracting from the skill vs skill equilibrium
Well at least you're admitting it now...
but what about the commander dropping a medpack? Isn't that just as bad?
Huh? That's like saying what about an alien that flees to heal at a nearby crag. In the case of medpacks the commander is actually HANDICAPPING a given encounter. He is paying team resources because the marine in question is of inferior skill. The difference here is that it comes with a PRICE. If you want to attach a p-res cost to every spit the Gorge shoots, something tells me the aliens aren't gonna like that.
What about a commander getting more gun upgrades for his marines? Where is the skill now?
The skill is still there. Have you never killed an EXO as a skulk? Have you never seen a skulk kill an EXO? The weakest unit in the game killing the ultimate marine weapon. "Where is the skill now?" Asked and answered.
Getting back to spit. The bottom line is that spit is very much the same as rifle butt stun. It takes away control of the character. Such effects should be used VERY sparingly. While I don't like stomp, I acknowledge that it is a three-hive weapon upgrade and if you have a bunch of Onos with stomp heading your way, chances are the game is already over. So while stomp is just as bad as devour IMHO, it's not worth making a big deal about.
Against a gorge that actually attacks (and doesn't just flee) a gorge will win the vast majority of encounters. The only time the gorge usually dies is if you surprise him and get him near death before he retaliates, and you are able to shoot blindly and finish him. In that case the marine had the upper hand.
I hope I never come up against whatever gorges you are playing against. It would be quite an embarrassing experience for me, I'm sure.
Incorrect. A skilled player will take such variables into account when they play. That's what makes them skilled. If power is out in a room, a skilled player won't just blindly run in. An unskilled player might, and that is where that lack of skill will get him killed.
So assessing your environment and considering the consequences is considered skill, but knowing that a gorge can blind you and considering those consequences is not? I don't quite understand the difference.
Huh? That's like saying what about an alien that flees to heal at a nearby crag. In the case of medpacks the commander is actually HANDICAPPING a given encounter. He is paying team resources because the marine in question is of inferior skill. The difference here is that it comes with a PRICE. If you want to attach a p-res cost to every spit the Gorge shoots, something tells me the aliens aren't gonna like that.
The gorge comes at a cost, and it isn't only in resources. We all know that. Don't act as if its free.
The skill is still there. Have you never killed an EXO as a skulk? Have you never seen a skulk kill an EXO? The weakest unit in the game killing the ultimate marine weapon. "Where is the skill now?" Asked and answered.
Do you not think that an Exo Suit would make it highly likely that a player will be killed by another player less skilled than himself? I think this goes against your initial definition of skill. If you don't think an Exo Suit would make it highly likely that a player would be killed by another player less skilled than himself, then I put it to you that you are simply saying whatever will make your point of view correct, whether you believe it or not. In which case this discussion is pointless.
I'm fairly certain that umbra and gas effects are meant to alert players to the location of the effect so that they can act accordingly, either getting into or out of it depending on the team. If it is blocking people's view that is more of a secondary benefit to the alien team, not necessarily the reason why the effect was added. Alien vision is not only for seeing through the fog, to highlight the enemy.
The question is not whether or not the dynamics should be changed to to balance issues, it is whether blocking the marine view during intense firefights is the best way to encourage fun gameplay. On that alone I think the debate has merit. Not only with competitive players but for the newbies / pugs who may have a better understanding of what's going on around them and enjoy fighting back when they aren't blindly pumping bullets down an obscured corridor. Of course the same could be said for the other side of the argument, where aliens enjoy using their abilities to obscure the marine view, ensure a safe escape, and secure the win. All I'm saying is don't turn this into a 'hate on the view obstruction hater' circle jerk.
I will say I did not see a dev post literally that it is ment to block view.
But we had that bug a while back where umbra & gas were less visible. (still plenty visible as far as I could see on rines/aliens)
They bugfixed it to how it is now, did they not?
I simply asume if it is not ment to be, they would not have done that.. could be wrong, but it would be counter productive aye?
Incorrect. A skilled player will take such variables into account when they play. That's what makes them skilled. If power is out in a room, a skilled player won't just blindly run in. An unskilled player might, and that is where that lack of skill will get him killed.
So assessing your environment and considering the consequences is considered skill, but knowing that a gorge can blind you and considering those consequences is not? I don't quite understand the difference.
What's the alternative, cede the position? You can either attack or you can not attack. Those are your choices. Not attacking (as a marine) is a forfeit. You may as well hit concede. You seem to think there is the illusion of choice here.
The blind mechanic gives the gorge a position of strength that he should not have. The gorge is a support class. While certainly not meant to be defenceless, there is a reason we have skulks in the game to take on marine foot-soldiers.
Here's the difference. The Gorge can drop hydras, and those hydras can remotely kill a marine if he tries to enter an area protected by those hydras. The difference here is that - while the Gorge may have dropped those hydras - the marine is still able to SEE them to attack/defend against them. He can enter the encounter knowing the risk and knowing that certain actions may lead to his death. The counter to a hydra is a gun. With the spit blind there is no counter other than avoiding the Gorge entirely, which makes the Gorge OP.
The gorge comes at a cost, and it isn't only in resources. We all know that. Don't act as if its free.
Of course it's not, but as I said before, the Gorge is a support class.
The skill is still there. Have you never killed an EXO as a skulk? Have you never seen a skulk kill an EXO? The weakest unit in the game killing the ultimate marine weapon. "Where is the skill now?" Asked and answered.
Do you not think that an Exo Suit would make it highly likely that a player will be killed by another player less skilled than himself? I think this goes against your initial definition of skill.
That wasn't the point. The point you made was that you suggested that marine weapon upgrades altered the balance of skill, giving a lesser skilled player an advantage over a greater skilled player. My contention is that weapons don't make the player any more or less skilled. That's why a greater skilled skulk can easily kill a lesser skilled EXO.
Player skill should be the determining factor in a given encounter. With blind, player skill is removed from the equation.
Hm, I sortive agree with strofix which is basically making me want to kill myself. I don't see why the gorge can't have as one of its advantages vision impairment abilities. Lots of games have vision impairing abilities, you have to work as a team/make deicions to circumvent them and win anyway. Its not like gorges are offensive machines as they are slow and can't go in vents so you sacrifice alot of mobility if you are using them offensively. I would say that more times then not when I get hit by spit I am still able to kill my target.
I think it basically comes down to taste and what you are looking for in a game, if your aim is super good then your obviously going to want a game that totally focuses on aim, but if your aims not quite as good, then you prefer to have strategic/tactical elements play a larger role - aka how to defeat a team using gorges heavily.
The blind mechanic gives the gorge a position of strength that he should not have. The gorge is a support class. While certainly not meant to be defenceless, there is a reason we have skulks in the game to take on marine foot-soldiers.
In my opinion, the 30 damage is what the gorge shouldn't have. The blind, however, makes perfect sense to me in a support capacity.
I don't know about you, but I sort of consider aiming to be a fundamental part of gameplay in an FPS. It's sort of like saying strategy isn't the only skill in a RTS.
I don't know about you, but I sort of consider aiming to be a fundamental part of gameplay in an FPS. It's sort of like saying strategy isn't the only skill in a RTS.
Its more akin to saying that APM is the only skill in an RTS.
Hm, I sortive agree with strofix which is basically making me want to kill myself. I don't see why the gorge can't have as one of its advantages vision impairment abilities.
As I said above, the problem isn't just the blind itself, it's that this blind is a default (hive 1) weapon.
It's like giving the Onos stomp from the start. Or giving a skulk leap off the start. It gives them too much power. If spit was a hive 3 weapon, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Furthermore, there is no downside to the weapon. Part of the high-level design document Charlie wrote lays out how he wants all weapons to have pros and cons. Simple example, the shottie is good at close combat, but bad at range. The lerk's spores are deadly, but you have to fly into a group of marines to use it, and not just fire from a distance. The skulk's xenocide weapon is very deadly, but the downside is that you have to suicide to use it. The marine pistol is very accurate, but it has a small clip etc.
The Gorge spit has no downside. It's good both in close and at long range, and it has the added bonus of a blind effect. Look at the bile bomb. It's an AOE ability, and can blind an EXO, but only affects armor on marines and has a limited range. That's the tradeoff. There is no tradeoff for spit. There is no downside to it. If spit did no damage, *then* a person could make a case for it since the downside would be that it only disables the marine, it doesn't kill. Instead you have a weapon that has no downside, on a class that the developers state is a 'support' class.
The idea that vision impairment is an altogether undesirable mechanic is, I think, less reasonable. You seemed to be saying that at times, and the OP was definitely saying that.
Hm, I sortive agree with strofix which is basically making me want to kill myself. I don't see why the gorge can't have as one of its advantages vision impairment abilities.
As I said above, the problem isn't just the blind itself, it's that this blind is a default (hive 1) weapon.
It's like giving the Onos stomp from the start. Or giving a skulk leap off the start. It gives them too much power. If spit was a hive 3 weapon, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Furthermore, there is no downside to the weapon. Part of the high-level design document Charlie wrote lays out how he wants all weapons to have pros and cons. Simple example, the shottie is good at close combat, but bad at range. The lerk's spores are deadly, but you have to fly into a group of marines to use it, and not just fire from a distance. The skulk's xenocide weapon is very deadly, but the downside is that you have to suicide to use it. The marine pistol is very accurate, but it has a small clip etc.
The Gorge spit has no downside. It's good both in close and at long range, and it has the added bonus of a blind effect. Look at the bile bomb. It's an AOE ability, and can blind an EXO, but only affects armor on marines and has a limited range. That's the tradeoff. There is no tradeoff for spit. There is no downside to it. If spit did no damage, *then* a person could make a case for it since the downside would be that it only disables the marine, it doesn't kill. Instead you have a weapon that has no downside, on a class that the developers state is a 'support' class.
It's just not balanced.
Whether or not the blind is imbalanced is a perfectly valid question. Maybe being able to take a marines ability to aim away so easily at the very start of a game is too powerful. I personally don't find that to be true, but it doesn't mean it strictly isn't.
However, this thread is more about the fact that spit blinds at all, or in fact that anything obstructs a players vision to any degree. I just can't agree that blinding mechanisms are altogether bad and should be avoided. I think that in a game this asymmetrical, its an elegant solution to a problem.
I don't know about you, but I sort of consider aiming to be a fundamental part of gameplay in an FPS. It's sort of like saying strategy isn't the only skill in a RTS.
Depending on the RTS, strategic thinking is a surprisingly small part of it. Starcraft is more twitchy than most FPS games, strategic thinking is kinda second to being able to do everything quickly, because you don't need strategy if you can just build faster than everyone else and make all your units use their powers perfectly, because then you're fighting with more units and better units, which is generally how you win games with the strategic depth of starcraft.
Strategy is a very secondary skill in that situation. It comes when you start to reach the limit of human performance in the speed area.
Spitting people is not dramatically more strategic by adding a blind affect; people are exaggerating grossly. There are incredibly few situations where the blind effect is the sole reason you choose to spit over do something else. The vast majority of the time, you're going to be useful spitting with or without it.
This is one of those cases where, because you can see a possible strategic use for blind, you think it adds depth but, in actual fact, the decision making process is almost identical, albeit with a different end product.
It's a similar borked - or at the very least, overemphasised - logic that gets applied to power as well. It looks like it adds strategy on the face of it but all you're being provided with is a bunch of (noob luring) false choices.
Its more akin to saying that APM is the only skill in an RTS.
No it isn't. APM is merely a measurement, in FPS terms it would be more like how fast you can move your mouse. You're talking about skill at mechanical execution, which I consider a barrier to entry. The core of a RTS is things like multitasking, managing limited resources, concealing/discerning intent and information, etc. If somebody made a mind-machine interface that would allow anybody to perfectly execute whatever they thought of, the RTS genre would still have a lot of depth. If everybody had perfect aim in FPSs, you'd have a completely different game that's closer to a MOBA than what it originally was.
Depending on the RTS, strategic thinking is a surprisingly small part of it. Starcraft is more twitchy than most FPS games, strategic thinking is kinda second to being able to do everything quickly, because you don't need strategy if you can just build faster than everyone else and make all your units use their powers perfectly, because then you're fighting with more units and better units, which is generally how you win games with the strategic depth of starcraft.
Strategy is a very secondary skill in that situation. It comes when you start to reach the limit of human performance in the speed area.
In another thread you stated that Chess can be won by dumb luck and confusing your opponents. You clearly have no idea what strategy is.
The core of a RTS is things like multitasking, managing limited resources, concealing/discerning intent and information, etc.
I view these as extremely important in every game genre that involves competing with others. RTS elements are often easier to commodify conceptually, but I believe it to be just as true in other genres.
If somebody made a mind-machine interface that would allow anybody to perfectly execute whatever they thought of, the RTS genre would still have a lot of depth. If everybody had perfect aim in FPSs, you'd have a completely different game that's closer to a MOBA than what it originally was.
I want to expand on this in a completely abstract and conceptual way, that has absolutely no practical basis.
The idea of this "mind machine" interests me, because in essence it already sort of exists. Obviously not the brain interface part, but the concept of something that can do the most complex of actions almost instantaneously. Anyone who has seen those SC2 videos where the zerglings take on the siege tanks, and none die, will know what I mean. In terms of FPS, its even more prevalent, with things like aimbots.
*Disclaimer: do not take this next part personally, it is merely personal opinion*
You get really good aimers in games. People who have borderline inhuman abilities to track a target, and have such high accuracy rates that it boggles the mind. But after all their practice, and time, and natural skill, they will still get utterly destroyed in that category by a relatively simple script, which is incapable of missing. Its like Usain Bolt being the fastest human on earth, which is a great achievement to be sure, but he is still slower than your average domestic cat.
It sounds silly, and I suppose it is, but the point is this: by focusing on something that we as humans are inherently not good at (the coordination and reaction time involved in aiming), I feel that we limit the maximum potential we could achieve. Nothing can out-think a human (not yet at least). Nothing that we know of even has the slightest concept of tactics or strategy. Why don't we focus on that instead? Why are we as a species so concerned with the "physical" and "tangible" aspects of performance, when in fact we are so hopelessly outmatched in that category?
It sounds silly, and I suppose it is, but the point is this: by focusing on something that we as humans are inherently not good at (the coordination and reaction time involved in aiming), I feel that we limit the maximum potential we could achieve. Nothing can out-think a human (not yet at least). Nothing that we know of even has the slightest concept of tactics or strategy. Why don't we focus on that instead? Why are we as a species so concerned with the "physical" and "tangible" aspects of performance, when in fact we are so hopelessly outmatched in that category?
[/rambling]
blinding with spit is not a "tactic" or a "strategy", it's simply a mechanic. you don't choose to blind someone with gorge spit through some amazing tactical analysis, you aim a projectile weapon and it happens to blind people for reasons that only the developers know.
I do agree with your viewpoint to a certain extent, you just have a poor example. for instance, if you are inferior at aim, you can simply use a baiting technique to force a marine to waste all his ammo on a gorge, and then you simply ambush while he's reloading. that's an example of a tactic. you are essentially saying poisoning with Lerk bite is a tactic. it's not. playing off of the mechanics involves tactics, the mechanics themselves aren't tactics
blinding with spit is not a "tactic" or a "strategy", it's simply a mechanic. you don't choose to blind someone with gorge spit through some amazing tactical analysis, you aim a projectile weapon and it happens to blind people for reasons that only the developers know.
Spitting a marine in the face requires no tactics or strategy. In fact, spit causes the tactics and strategy to manifest on the marine's side, not on the aliens.
Think of it this way: Give someone a lockbox and a sledgehammer, and see how clever their solution is. Now give them another lockbox, and take the sledgehammer away, and see if the their solution is a little more elegant.
I feel that this is exactly what has happened in NS2 for the aliens. They have been given an FPS game, but had their sledgehammer taken away from them, and I personally have never had to play smarter than when controlling a paper thin skulk against a level 3 shotgun marine.
A good example of the "dumbing down" that can occur when given a "sledgehammer" is ARCs. I consider myself a good and clever commander, but given the choice over a complex and well coordinated attack plan, or a bunch of ARCs? I'll upgrade that robo and pump out 10 sledgehammers everytime.
The Gorge spit has no downside. It's good both in close and at long range, and it has the added bonus of a blind effect. Look at the bile bomb. It's an AOE ability, and can blind an EXO, but only affects armor on marines and has a limited range. That's the tradeoff. There is no tradeoff for spit. There is no downside to it. If spit did no damage, *then* a person could make a case for it since the downside would be that it only disables the marine, it doesn't kill. Instead you have a weapon that has no downside, on a class that the developers state is a 'support' class.
It's just not balanced.
Wow, that is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard. a tradeoff must be assessed in comparison to something else. there is no metric. sure spit has a downside, it does less dps than a skull bite, it doesn't stun like an onos stomp, it isn't hit scan like an lmg, it doesn't do area damage like bile... see what I did there?
the real question do you want a gorge to be able to defend itself?
Spit without damage would be ridiculous, that way those slow gorges would be a sure kill any time and
remember Hydras aren't for free. If a gorge build a defense one lonely marine shouldnt be able to kill him, he spent time and nearly 20 pres building it. If blind gets removed the damage has to increase, because gorges have disadvantages, they are slow and fat and if damage gets removed, the gorge needs speed for running, because that's all he is good for then.
And about the rifle butt: If this gets included again, give Gorge the ability to pull marines into melee zone of their nearby skulks or a feature to disable the selected gun for a period of time. harharhar
Really to be stopped in the midst of battle and sent back out of attack range is not fun. The skulk has to gain momentum again and it would be really easy for other marines to kill it . Movement is the skulk's advantage.
Oh and a gorge without spit and hydras (if there is not enough pres) is a mobile healing spot,
playing gorge would be so boring then.
Spit without damage would be ridiculous, that way those slow gorges would be a sure kill any time and
remember Hydras aren't for free. If a gorge build a defense one lonely marine shouldnt be able to kill him, he spent time and nearly 20 pres building it. If blind gets removed the damage has to increase, because gorges have disadvantages, they are slow and fat and if damage gets removed, the gorge needs speed for running, because that's all he is good for then.
What about that marine who is spending time building a structure, he's spending time and the team res to build it. Normally the gorge should have a skulk or two around him to help him or within arms reach anyway, gorge is the bait for the skulks to mop up
Comments
If spamming is the issue, why not look at tweaking the energy cost or RoF?
First of all, you're missing the point. Rifle butt made it damn near impossible for a skulk to beat a marine. As said previously, getting hit by it was a certified death sentence, as you then became immobile, leading to a swift and decisive death. If you want to say that "there's no difference between the two", then you are going to have to show how the gorge's blind mechanic causes the attacking marine to lose almost every single encounter. Otherwise, it simply is not the same at all.
Secondly, the concept that battles should be "determined by player skill" is highly ambiguous. There are many complications that arise when considering an assertion such as that one.
I mean, this game being as asymmetrical as it is, that already means that a massive number of encounters will strictly not be determined by player skill, in the narrow sense of the word you are using. There are lots of things to hide behind, there are big open spaces, there are cramped environments, there are badly lit areas. All these things sway the odds unevenly in one player or the other's favor, regardless of which is the most skilled.
Furthermore, surely every direction interaction the commander has influences this delicate skill vs skill balance that goes on between the players? Ok, so the gorge spitting and blinding a marine is detracting from the skill vs skill equilibrium, but what about the commander dropping a medpack? Isn't that just as bad? What about a commander getting more gun upgrades for his marines? Where is the skill now?
Limiting yourself to only considering "individual" or "tangible" skills is going to cause a lot of contradictions to arise when considering a game like NS2.
anyway. i'm convinced that not being able to see properly would pose only a minor inconvenience at that level. I'm saying that they can probably see through the blinding effect and kill you anyway. so this thread is simply bellyaching.
you can talk balance, the 30 damage is nice, but at the competitive level, i don't think a gorge is going to kill a marine much 1v1 anyway, so anything over 10 damage is going to be superfluous. at that level, the blinding effect is the main characteristic of that attack, whether to run or deter with hydra or do support/tank.
A knockback alone doesn't take control away from the skulk. The skulk can still freely move and attack. Against a gorge that actually attacks (and doesn't just flee) a gorge will win the vast majority of encounters. The only time the gorge usually dies is if you surprise him and get him near death before he retaliates, and you are able to shoot blindly and finish him. In that case the marine had the upper hand.
Actually it is not ambiguous at all. It's extraordinarily simplistic. This is a game being played by people. The skill of those people will determine the outcome of any particular encounter. Take a skilled veteran and put him against a new player. Who will win a given encounter? The veteran. Even medpack spam shouldn't prevent a veteran skulk from killing a newbie marine.
Game variables should NOT come into play here. Why?
Well if game variables took away the benefit of 'player skill' in a game, then what you have left is luck. This isn't a board game where battles are determined by a roll of the dice. Incorrect. A skilled player will take such variables into account when they play. That's what makes them skilled. If power is out in a room, a skilled player won't just blindly run in. An unskilled player might, and that is where that lack of skill will get him killed.
Well at least you're admitting it now...
Huh? That's like saying what about an alien that flees to heal at a nearby crag. In the case of medpacks the commander is actually HANDICAPPING a given encounter. He is paying team resources because the marine in question is of inferior skill. The difference here is that it comes with a PRICE. If you want to attach a p-res cost to every spit the Gorge shoots, something tells me the aliens aren't gonna like that.
The skill is still there. Have you never killed an EXO as a skulk? Have you never seen a skulk kill an EXO? The weakest unit in the game killing the ultimate marine weapon. "Where is the skill now?" Asked and answered.
Getting back to spit. The bottom line is that spit is very much the same as rifle butt stun. It takes away control of the character. Such effects should be used VERY sparingly. While I don't like stomp, I acknowledge that it is a three-hive weapon upgrade and if you have a bunch of Onos with stomp heading your way, chances are the game is already over. So while stomp is just as bad as devour IMHO, it's not worth making a big deal about.
Spit blind needs to go.
I hope I never come up against whatever gorges you are playing against. It would be quite an embarrassing experience for me, I'm sure.
So assessing your environment and considering the consequences is considered skill, but knowing that a gorge can blind you and considering those consequences is not? I don't quite understand the difference.
The gorge comes at a cost, and it isn't only in resources. We all know that. Don't act as if its free.
Do you not think that an Exo Suit would make it highly likely that a player will be killed by another player less skilled than himself? I think this goes against your initial definition of skill. If you don't think an Exo Suit would make it highly likely that a player would be killed by another player less skilled than himself, then I put it to you that you are simply saying whatever will make your point of view correct, whether you believe it or not. In which case this discussion is pointless.
I will say I did not see a dev post literally that it is ment to block view.
But we had that bug a while back where umbra & gas were less visible. (still plenty visible as far as I could see on rines/aliens)
They bugfixed it to how it is now, did they not?
I simply asume if it is not ment to be, they would not have done that.. could be wrong, but it would be counter productive aye?
The blind mechanic gives the gorge a position of strength that he should not have. The gorge is a support class. While certainly not meant to be defenceless, there is a reason we have skulks in the game to take on marine foot-soldiers.
Here's the difference. The Gorge can drop hydras, and those hydras can remotely kill a marine if he tries to enter an area protected by those hydras. The difference here is that - while the Gorge may have dropped those hydras - the marine is still able to SEE them to attack/defend against them. He can enter the encounter knowing the risk and knowing that certain actions may lead to his death. The counter to a hydra is a gun. With the spit blind there is no counter other than avoiding the Gorge entirely, which makes the Gorge OP.
Of course it's not, but as I said before, the Gorge is a support class.
That wasn't the point. The point you made was that you suggested that marine weapon upgrades altered the balance of skill, giving a lesser skilled player an advantage over a greater skilled player. My contention is that weapons don't make the player any more or less skilled. That's why a greater skilled skulk can easily kill a lesser skilled EXO.
Player skill should be the determining factor in a given encounter. With blind, player skill is removed from the equation.
I think it basically comes down to taste and what you are looking for in a game, if your aim is super good then your obviously going to want a game that totally focuses on aim, but if your aims not quite as good, then you prefer to have strategic/tactical elements play a larger role - aka how to defeat a team using gorges heavily.
In my opinion, the 30 damage is what the gorge shouldn't have. The blind, however, makes perfect sense to me in a support capacity.
So what do we do with all these players who can't aim who are getting their skill exponentially amplified by blinding effects?
Its more akin to saying that APM is the only skill in an RTS.
It's like giving the Onos stomp from the start. Or giving a skulk leap off the start. It gives them too much power. If spit was a hive 3 weapon, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Furthermore, there is no downside to the weapon. Part of the high-level design document Charlie wrote lays out how he wants all weapons to have pros and cons. Simple example, the shottie is good at close combat, but bad at range. The lerk's spores are deadly, but you have to fly into a group of marines to use it, and not just fire from a distance. The skulk's xenocide weapon is very deadly, but the downside is that you have to suicide to use it. The marine pistol is very accurate, but it has a small clip etc.
The Gorge spit has no downside. It's good both in close and at long range, and it has the added bonus of a blind effect. Look at the bile bomb. It's an AOE ability, and can blind an EXO, but only affects armor on marines and has a limited range. That's the tradeoff. There is no tradeoff for spit. There is no downside to it. If spit did no damage, *then* a person could make a case for it since the downside would be that it only disables the marine, it doesn't kill. Instead you have a weapon that has no downside, on a class that the developers state is a 'support' class.
It's just not balanced.
That's a reasonable view.
The idea that vision impairment is an altogether undesirable mechanic is, I think, less reasonable. You seemed to be saying that at times, and the OP was definitely saying that.
Whether or not the blind is imbalanced is a perfectly valid question. Maybe being able to take a marines ability to aim away so easily at the very start of a game is too powerful. I personally don't find that to be true, but it doesn't mean it strictly isn't.
However, this thread is more about the fact that spit blinds at all, or in fact that anything obstructs a players vision to any degree. I just can't agree that blinding mechanisms are altogether bad and should be avoided. I think that in a game this asymmetrical, its an elegant solution to a problem.
Depending on the RTS, strategic thinking is a surprisingly small part of it. Starcraft is more twitchy than most FPS games, strategic thinking is kinda second to being able to do everything quickly, because you don't need strategy if you can just build faster than everyone else and make all your units use their powers perfectly, because then you're fighting with more units and better units, which is generally how you win games with the strategic depth of starcraft.
Strategy is a very secondary skill in that situation. It comes when you start to reach the limit of human performance in the speed area.
This is one of those cases where, because you can see a possible strategic use for blind, you think it adds depth but, in actual fact, the decision making process is almost identical, albeit with a different end product.
It's a similar borked - or at the very least, overemphasised - logic that gets applied to power as well. It looks like it adds strategy on the face of it but all you're being provided with is a bunch of (noob luring) false choices.
In another thread you stated that Chess can be won by dumb luck and confusing your opponents. You clearly have no idea what strategy is.
I view these as extremely important in every game genre that involves competing with others. RTS elements are often easier to commodify conceptually, but I believe it to be just as true in other genres.
I think we all knew the blind was going to go the way of the dinosaur.
Just be happy it hits people sometimes now, any DPS at all is an increase over what it was.
I want to expand on this in a completely abstract and conceptual way, that has absolutely no practical basis.
The idea of this "mind machine" interests me, because in essence it already sort of exists. Obviously not the brain interface part, but the concept of something that can do the most complex of actions almost instantaneously. Anyone who has seen those SC2 videos where the zerglings take on the siege tanks, and none die, will know what I mean. In terms of FPS, its even more prevalent, with things like aimbots.
*Disclaimer: do not take this next part personally, it is merely personal opinion*
You get really good aimers in games. People who have borderline inhuman abilities to track a target, and have such high accuracy rates that it boggles the mind. But after all their practice, and time, and natural skill, they will still get utterly destroyed in that category by a relatively simple script, which is incapable of missing. Its like Usain Bolt being the fastest human on earth, which is a great achievement to be sure, but he is still slower than your average domestic cat.
It sounds silly, and I suppose it is, but the point is this: by focusing on something that we as humans are inherently not good at (the coordination and reaction time involved in aiming), I feel that we limit the maximum potential we could achieve. Nothing can out-think a human (not yet at least). Nothing that we know of even has the slightest concept of tactics or strategy. Why don't we focus on that instead? Why are we as a species so concerned with the "physical" and "tangible" aspects of performance, when in fact we are so hopelessly outmatched in that category?
[/rambling]
I do agree with your viewpoint to a certain extent, you just have a poor example. for instance, if you are inferior at aim, you can simply use a baiting technique to force a marine to waste all his ammo on a gorge, and then you simply ambush while he's reloading. that's an example of a tactic. you are essentially saying poisoning with Lerk bite is a tactic. it's not. playing off of the mechanics involves tactics, the mechanics themselves aren't tactics
Spitting a marine in the face requires no tactics or strategy. In fact, spit causes the tactics and strategy to manifest on the marine's side, not on the aliens.
Think of it this way: Give someone a lockbox and a sledgehammer, and see how clever their solution is. Now give them another lockbox, and take the sledgehammer away, and see if the their solution is a little more elegant.
I feel that this is exactly what has happened in NS2 for the aliens. They have been given an FPS game, but had their sledgehammer taken away from them, and I personally have never had to play smarter than when controlling a paper thin skulk against a level 3 shotgun marine.
A good example of the "dumbing down" that can occur when given a "sledgehammer" is ARCs. I consider myself a good and clever commander, but given the choice over a complex and well coordinated attack plan, or a bunch of ARCs? I'll upgrade that robo and pump out 10 sledgehammers everytime.
Wow, that is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard. a tradeoff must be assessed in comparison to something else. there is no metric. sure spit has a downside, it does less dps than a skull bite, it doesn't stun like an onos stomp, it isn't hit scan like an lmg, it doesn't do area damage like bile... see what I did there?
the real question do you want a gorge to be able to defend itself?
remember Hydras aren't for free. If a gorge build a defense one lonely marine shouldnt be able to kill him, he spent time and nearly 20 pres building it. If blind gets removed the damage has to increase, because gorges have disadvantages, they are slow and fat and if damage gets removed, the gorge needs speed for running, because that's all he is good for then.
And about the rifle butt: If this gets included again, give Gorge the ability to pull marines into melee zone of their nearby skulks or a feature to disable the selected gun for a period of time. harharhar
Really to be stopped in the midst of battle and sent back out of attack range is not fun. The skulk has to gain momentum again and it would be really easy for other marines to kill it . Movement is the skulk's advantage.
Oh and a gorge without spit and hydras (if there is not enough pres) is a mobile healing spot,
playing gorge would be so boring then.
What about that marine who is spending time building a structure, he's spending time and the team res to build it. Normally the gorge should have a skulk or two around him to help him or within arms reach anyway, gorge is the bait for the skulks to mop up