People complained because cloak had an out of combat timer of 5 seconds, it's now down to what, 2.5 or 3, or even 2, that was enough of a buff in itself, reducing the out of combat timer was just a legitimate of a complaint as not having fully invisible aliens is now on 2 second.
Camo played well (sit on walls in RT rooms and wait for marines) makes the marine team want to leave the game, camo played badly (sitting on walls everywhere but RTs/tech points) makes the alien team want to leave, as someone else said no other upgrade in the game makes people from both sides want to leave the game, no one blames cara, silence or cele for losing a game badly.
People complained because cloak had an out of combat timer of 5 seconds, it's now down to what, 2.5 or 3, or even 2, that was enough of a buff in itself, reducing the out of combat timer was just a legitimate of a complaint as not having fully invisible aliens is now on 2 second.
Camo played well (sit on walls in RT rooms and wait for marines) makes the marine team want to leave the game, camo played badly (sitting on walls everywhere but RTs/tech points) makes the alien team want to leave, as someone else said no other upgrade in the game makes people from both sides want to leave the game, no one blames cara, silence or cele for losing a game badly.
I actually just left a game as Marines after 3 minutes of camo'd NON-SENSE.
What exactly are peoples issues with camo at the moment? From what I gather, people are complaining that its too strong early game (maybe?), too weak late game (probably?)
What I've been reading (as far as complaints about camo) is that it is less about what camo offers, and more about what you have to give up to have it.
Say you go shade hive first. OK, you've got camo and related traits. In many games, aliens will have second hive around the 6-8 minute mark. Now you have the choice, do you go crag hive to pick up carapace and regeneration (as well as the crags themselves for healing), or do you go shift hive to pick up celerity and adrenaline (as well as the shift for forward egg drops)?
The choice you don't make, means you are without those traits for usually another 10 minutes. So can you imagine playing a game for ~15+ minutes without carapace? What about going ~15+ minutes without celerity? What about the ability to drop a shift and start popping out eggs? Or a crag to heal a hive that the marines launched a failed attack on?
What some people are saying is that it's the *other* choices that make shade hive a liability in the early game, since you push back needed upgrades to much later in the game. Me personally I'm divided on it. While the point is apt, the aliens often win the game before third hive is dropped anyway.
It seems like this, once again, stems from the over reliance on Gorges and Onos. These are the two lifeforms which benefit the least (not at all) from shade upgrades and abilities. They are also the single most useful units when it comes to beating the marine team in public games. We can see that, in competitive games, where most games revolve around skulk, fade, and to a lesser degree, lerk play, shade is quite a popular choice. The problem there is that camouflage is a non existent choice and is never utilized.
New cloaking mechanic: You are visible but can't attack as well as not recieve damage. Like Fade's blink.
(This information may not be accurate cause im just getting this information out of Charlie's desktop recycle bin - it's black hole time continuum stuff, please dont ask questions.)
New cloaking mechanic: You are visible but can't attack as well as not recieve damage. Like Fade's blink.
(This information may not be accurate cause im just getting this information out of Charlie's desktop recycle bin - it's black hole time continuum stuff, please dont ask questions.)
Almost had me going...until I realised its "singularity and space time continuum stuff"...so clearly the rest of the statement was also confused
You can give players advantage over others (cara or weapon and armor upgrades). But you should never make this advantage unbeatable for the other players.
The com is the only one that can level the battlefield again. This heavy reliance is unfair for the player on the field.
It is to easy to use as alien and to hard to counter for marines.
Nerving camo in some way will just make it disappear. Because it isn't worth using above other tech paths.
You can't make it partially visible or some people will abuse it.
Not the problem with camo:
It is not overpowered as a tech choice. It is balanced in comparison with craig and shift. (Or you would see it much more used.)
Full invisibility is not a problem, if the player on the field has an option to counter it.
Some possible solutions:
Introduce a new researchable flash light for the LMG (use GL attachment model). It makes aliens slightly visible in the (narrow) cone of the light. This flash light attachment needs to be visible by aliens (purple light cone for example) and needs to be cheap to buy for the marine.
To compensate for this nerv: Scans don't uncloak aliens anymore, they only make them slightly visible and red dots on the minimap.
Aliens need now energy while moving cloaked.
To compensate for this nerv: Aliens can now even run while cloaked but the energy cost goes up and they also make normal noises.
The first idea gives the marine on the field an option to soft counter camo. But it isn't an "make-camo-instantly-useless"-upgrade like motion tracking. It needs skill to use it right.
The second one increases the skill needed to proper use camo for aliens.
You can give players advantage over others (cara or weapon and armor upgrades). But you should never make this advantage unbeatable for the player.
The com is the only one that can level the battlefield again. This heavy reliance is unfair for the player on the field.
It is to easy to use as alien and to hard to counter for marines.
Nerving camo in some way will just make it disappear. Because it isn't worth using above other tech paths.
You can't make it partially visible or some people will abuse it.
Not the problem with camo:
It is not overpowered as a tech choice. It is balanced in comparison with craig and shift. (Or you would see it much more used.)
Full invisibility is not a problem, if the player on the field has an option to counter it.
Some possible solutions:
Introduce a new researchable flash light for the LMG (use GL attachment model). It makes aliens slightly visible in the (narrow) cone of the light. This flash light attachment needs to be visible by aliens (purple light cone for example) and needs to be cheap to buy for the marine.
To compensate for this nerv: Scans don't uncloak aliens anymore, they only make them slightly visible and red dots on the minimap.
Aliens need now energy while moving cloaked.
To compensate for this nerv: Aliens can now even run while cloaked but the energy cost goes up and they also make normal noises.
The first idea gives the marine on the field an option to soft counter camo. But it isn't an "make-camo-instantly-useless"-upgrade like motion tracking. It needs skill to use it right.
The second one increases the skill needed to proper use camo for aliens.
Just my 2 cent.
Personally I think option 1 is better, still leaves marines an avenue...though the offset of scans (and presumably obs) no longer making you totally visible removes the almost complete hard counter they have been to the tech tree.
option 2 seems too much like TF's spy class..."you only have so much time to remain invisible..." and just makes it feel too gimicky.
Or just make sure aliens make noise when cloaked, but maybe that's too simple.
This would have to be approached with extreme caution though.
I mean, if something is making a noise within 1-2 rooms of my location, I will know exactly where it is within like 2 feet, and I'm pretty sure the same goes for most people who have played games which rely a lot on sound.
When you come up with an idea for camo, remember this: You're not supposed to nerf it, just make it so marines can fight it on their own. Aka if you give it a sound or make blips on the map you're going to have to BUFF camo somehow in return.
Unless, of course, you will argue that camo is OP right now, which is something hard to pull off seeing as it barely sees any use... (Personally I do think it's OP lol. :P)
I hope they get rid of Camo completely. For such a useless upgrade, so many people are under the illusion that it's somehow 'good' or 'useful' instead of being the troll bait that it is.
Sure, go ahead and add a 5% 'Blur' effect. It'll be the last time anyone researches camo. High brightness/gamma with atmospherics turned off is going to make that a sweet deal for the Marines. You don't even need to go down the rabbit hole of florescent alien models for that obvious tid-bit. I mean, you already need to disable atmospherics to use the Marines flashlight anyway so why not give yourself a huge advantage that's readily available in the 'options' menu? Might as well call it the 'Marines have a chance' setting.
On the plus side, it'll put a big 'noob' sign on anyones head that researches shade first. Then comes the eject vote, right?
In most other games with a blur camo effect, it's something you just get. You don't need to trade off for something else. In Natural Selection 2 you're giving up more armor, more speed, more ammo, or regeneration. Which one of these effects would you skip in preference of a gimmicky sight dodge?
None? Congratulations! It turns out you do play video games!
Or just make sure aliens make noise when cloaked, but maybe that's too simple.
Eh.. only if the cloak speed is increased from that dreadful number of 4. Otherwise it'd be like shooting fish in a barrel for anyone with a decent sound setup.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
aliens 100% invisible but you can see a trail of saliva behind them, so you can see where they have been which gives you a clue to where they actually are.
The main problem with cloaking has never been balance, it was always the fact that it was incredibly unfun. Without frequent scanning and observatories, Marine play just consists of constantly running into undetectable ambushes while Alien play consists of waiting for Marines to unknowingly stumble into biting range. On the Marine side, the influence of player skill is mostly removed and placed in the hands of the Commander and on the Alien side it's similarly removed because any idiot can set up an ambush when all he has to do is stand still and turn invisible.
You can give players advantage over others (cara or weapon and armor upgrades). But you should never make this advantage unbeatable for the other players.
The com is the only one that can level the battlefield again. This heavy reliance is unfair for the player on the field.
It is to easy to use as alien and to hard to counter for marines.
Nerving camo in some way will just make it disappear. Because it isn't worth using above other tech paths.
You can't make it partially visible or some people will abuse it.
Not the problem with camo:
It is not overpowered as a tech choice. It is balanced in comparison with craig and shift. (Or you would see it much more used.)
Full invisibility is not a problem, if the player on the field has an option to counter it.
Some possible solutions:
Introduce a new researchable flash light for the LMG (use GL attachment model). It makes aliens slightly visible in the (narrow) cone of the light. This flash light attachment needs to be visible by aliens (purple light cone for example) and needs to be cheap to buy for the marine.
To compensate for this nerv: Scans don't uncloak aliens anymore, they only make them slightly visible and red dots on the minimap.
Aliens need now energy while moving cloaked.
To compensate for this nerv: Aliens can now even run while cloaked but the energy cost goes up and they also make normal noises.
The first idea gives the marine on the field an option to soft counter camo. But it isn't an "make-camo-instantly-useless"-upgrade like motion tracking. It needs skill to use it right.
The second one increases the skill needed to proper use camo for aliens.
Just my 2 cent.
Solution 1 is decent. Maybe make it goggles like willz posted. Five res for the attachment or goggles.
I'm not a fan of solution two, but appreciate the effort in putting multiple solutions together.
Also, everyone saying cloaking should only be active when still should try creeping up on good players. Good players will hear you make you way toward the room, predict which way you enter, see you in the corner of their screen, and shoot in you direction when you stop moving. It's not difficult. You could end up sitting still in a dark corner (on the ceiling), but the good player knows you're there.
The main problem with cloaking has never been balance, it was always the fact that it was incredibly unfun. Without frequent scanning and observatories, Marine play just consists of constantly running into undetectable ambushes while Alien play consists of waiting for Marines to unknowingly stumble into biting range. On the Marine side, the influence of player skill is mostly removed and placed in the hands of the Commander and on the Alien side it's similarly removed because any idiot can set up an ambush when all he has to do is stand still and turn invisible.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The trouble with the current camo is that it is op vs a marine comm who doesn't or can't scan, but worthless against one who does. The former is more prevalent in public games, while the latter in competitive ones. It makes camo usefulness one of the few upgrades heavily dependent on the skill of the marine comm.
The trouble with the current camo is that it is op vs a marine comm who doesn't or can't scan, but worthless against one who does. The former is more prevalent in public games, while the latter in competitive ones. It makes camo usefulness one of the few upgrades heavily dependent on the skill of the marine comm.
I've said it before, apart from the welder gameplay mechanic that could be really interesting and level the playing field a bit more, having a personal device that scans for aliens would be a nifty idea.
I think bringing the assault rifle/LMG grenade launcher in the form of an ejectable 'grenade' scanner would be pretty good. Obviously it would cost Pres and have some sort of drawback to the commander scanning.
So.. why don't observatories use a global energy pool to perform scans, instead of 3 TRes per scan? Was this changed at some point in the beta because of balance, or?
So upgrades are supposed to be passive and each upgrade has one direct buff to combat and out of combat, semi combat buff.
Shift:
Adrenaline, direct combat bonus as you can attack more. Celerity, out of combat bonus for movement but also buff in combat while you can avoid being hit.
Crag:
Carapace, direct combat bonus as you can be attacked more. Regen, out of combat bonus as you can get back to the fight faster, also buff in combat if you can avoid some shots.
Shade:
Silence, um... well direct all round buff. Good out of combat as you can move through vents and adjacent rooms without being heard and buff in combat because most players rely on sound. Camo only works out of combat, very very unlikely to trigger on while in combat.
Maybe we should rethink both shade upgrades to fit this style. Silence is ok, despite being useful out of combat as well you can say adren gives an out of combat buff for faster movement with blink/leap. Camo needs to be changed such that it's useful out of combat (like hiding) but can still be used going into combat and might trigger while in combat.
So camo is no longer full invisibility but also is no longer tied to movement speed. You can run full pelt and be as cloaked as you are when standing still. Give it a similar out-of-combat timer to celerity and regen. Now your slightly harder to see so hiding is a bit easier (but not just stand on the floor easy) but you will also blink in and out of existence (while not being hit) during combat making it harder to track (similar bonus to what silence gives you). Add in obs not decloaking you (just show up on the map), but maybe keep scans decloak.
No longer needs the comm to counter it. No longer completely useless in combat. No longer hard countered by obs.
In my opinion the obs and scanner sweep should not reveal Camouflage at all. Instead make it counterable on the field without comm intervention like all the other upgrades. Shade cloak is an alien comm ability and can be countered by the marine comm - Camouflage is an individual upgrade and should be countered on the field by marines.
In my opinion the obs and scanner sweep should not reveal Camouflage at all. Instead make it counterable on the field without comm intervention like all the other upgrades. Shade cloak is an alien comm ability and can be countered by the marine comm - Camouflage is an individual upgrade and should be countered on the field by marines.
Good call.
On a related note, I kinda liked the "UV Flashlight" idea somebody had.
Camo (imo) is too OP by the very fact that you are invisible and the line between visibility/invisibility is too difficult to call to get the balance right. I.e. 3 secs to cloak, rather than 4.
It would be better if cloak effected radar, and possibly what the comm can see when he scans. Perhaps when the scan goes off, players have a small amount of time to stop moving or they are seen.
I think little things like that would make up for a better cloak, rather than actual 'invisibility' which is kind of gimmicky, and as I say, hard to balance.
Comm/marines not seeing aliens on map/minimap would be powerful enough in its own right.
Not sure if this has been suggested but how about leaving camo like it is but give Marines the ability to buy personal motion trackers from the armory for ~5 res.
That way they and units near by them can see the red dots on their mini maps.
Just whatever you do, dont make it a partial cloak. it makes it entirely useless, i say this as a vet of the original crysis wars multiplayer where cloak was only used against newbies because everyone who's played for more than 50 hours could pick out cloak at any distance, speed, anywhere. It completely invalidates any use in competitive play.
flash sear grenades, do 10 damage to everything in LOS, one use 5 pres. damage will reveal any cloaked units through damage, and bring any marines down to 2 bites sans armor.marine scan if you will, but not persistent.
flash sear grenades, do 10 damage to everything in LOS, one use 5 pres. damage will reveal any cloaked units through damage, and bring any marines down to 2 bites sans armor.marine scan if you will, but not persistent.
Not sure if this has been suggested but how about leaving camo like it is but give Marines the ability to buy personal motion trackers from the armory for ~5 res.
That way they and units near by them can see the red dots on their mini maps.
I'm against anything that marines have to buy to counter what aliens get for free. Asymetric or not, cost is universal. There either needs to be a marine upgrade (motion tracking) or cloak should have a sound that gets louder/changes the closer the marine is to the cloaked unit.
Comments
Camo played well (sit on walls in RT rooms and wait for marines) makes the marine team want to leave the game, camo played badly (sitting on walls everywhere but RTs/tech points) makes the alien team want to leave, as someone else said no other upgrade in the game makes people from both sides want to leave the game, no one blames cara, silence or cele for losing a game badly.
I actually just left a game as Marines after 3 minutes of camo'd NON-SENSE.
Shit just isn't fun at all.
It seems like this, once again, stems from the over reliance on Gorges and Onos. These are the two lifeforms which benefit the least (not at all) from shade upgrades and abilities. They are also the single most useful units when it comes to beating the marine team in public games. We can see that, in competitive games, where most games revolve around skulk, fade, and to a lesser degree, lerk play, shade is quite a popular choice. The problem there is that camouflage is a non existent choice and is never utilized.
I think the issues here run quite deep.
(This information may not be accurate cause im just getting this information out of Charlie's desktop recycle bin - it's black hole time continuum stuff, please dont ask questions.)
Almost had me going...until I realised its "singularity and space time continuum stuff"...so clearly the rest of the statement was also confused
The problem with camo:
- You can give players advantage over others (cara or weapon and armor upgrades). But you should never make this advantage unbeatable for the other players.
- The com is the only one that can level the battlefield again. This heavy reliance is unfair for the player on the field.
- It is to easy to use as alien and to hard to counter for marines.
- Nerving camo in some way will just make it disappear. Because it isn't worth using above other tech paths.
- You can't make it partially visible or some people will abuse it.
Not the problem with camo:- It is not overpowered as a tech choice. It is balanced in comparison with craig and shift. (Or you would see it much more used.)
- Full invisibility is not a problem, if the player on the field has an option to counter it.
Some possible solutions:- Introduce a new researchable flash light for the LMG (use GL attachment model). It makes aliens slightly visible in the (narrow) cone of the light. This flash light attachment needs to be visible by aliens (purple light cone for example) and needs to be cheap to buy for the marine.
- Aliens need now energy while moving cloaked.
The first idea gives the marine on the field an option to soft counter camo. But it isn't an "make-camo-instantly-useless"-upgrade like motion tracking. It needs skill to use it right.To compensate for this nerv: Scans don't uncloak aliens anymore, they only make them slightly visible and red dots on the minimap.
To compensate for this nerv: Aliens can now even run while cloaked but the energy cost goes up and they also make normal noises.
The second one increases the skill needed to proper use camo for aliens.
Just my 2 cent.
Personally I think option 1 is better, still leaves marines an avenue...though the offset of scans (and presumably obs) no longer making you totally visible removes the almost complete hard counter they have been to the tech tree.
option 2 seems too much like TF's spy class..."you only have so much time to remain invisible..." and just makes it feel too gimicky.
This would have to be approached with extreme caution though.
I mean, if something is making a noise within 1-2 rooms of my location, I will know exactly where it is within like 2 feet, and I'm pretty sure the same goes for most people who have played games which rely a lot on sound.
Unless, of course, you will argue that camo is OP right now, which is something hard to pull off seeing as it barely sees any use... (Personally I do think it's OP lol. :P)
I hope they get rid of Camo completely. For such a useless upgrade, so many people are under the illusion that it's somehow 'good' or 'useful' instead of being the troll bait that it is.
Sure, go ahead and add a 5% 'Blur' effect. It'll be the last time anyone researches camo. High brightness/gamma with atmospherics turned off is going to make that a sweet deal for the Marines. You don't even need to go down the rabbit hole of florescent alien models for that obvious tid-bit. I mean, you already need to disable atmospherics to use the Marines flashlight anyway so why not give yourself a huge advantage that's readily available in the 'options' menu? Might as well call it the 'Marines have a chance' setting.
On the plus side, it'll put a big 'noob' sign on anyones head that researches shade first. Then comes the eject vote, right?
In most other games with a blur camo effect, it's something you just get. You don't need to trade off for something else. In Natural Selection 2 you're giving up more armor, more speed, more ammo, or regeneration. Which one of these effects would you skip in preference of a gimmicky sight dodge?
None? Congratulations! It turns out you do play video games!
Solution 1 is decent. Maybe make it goggles like willz posted. Five res for the attachment or goggles.
I'm not a fan of solution two, but appreciate the effort in putting multiple solutions together.
Also, everyone saying cloaking should only be active when still should try creeping up on good players. Good players will hear you make you way toward the room, predict which way you enter, see you in the corner of their screen, and shoot in you direction when you stop moving. It's not difficult. You could end up sitting still in a dark corner (on the ceiling), but the good player knows you're there.
Hit the nail on the head.
I think bringing the assault rifle/LMG grenade launcher in the form of an ejectable 'grenade' scanner would be pretty good. Obviously it would cost Pres and have some sort of drawback to the commander scanning.
Shift:
Adrenaline, direct combat bonus as you can attack more. Celerity, out of combat bonus for movement but also buff in combat while you can avoid being hit.
Crag:
Carapace, direct combat bonus as you can be attacked more. Regen, out of combat bonus as you can get back to the fight faster, also buff in combat if you can avoid some shots.
Shade:
Silence, um... well direct all round buff. Good out of combat as you can move through vents and adjacent rooms without being heard and buff in combat because most players rely on sound. Camo only works out of combat, very very unlikely to trigger on while in combat.
Maybe we should rethink both shade upgrades to fit this style. Silence is ok, despite being useful out of combat as well you can say adren gives an out of combat buff for faster movement with blink/leap. Camo needs to be changed such that it's useful out of combat (like hiding) but can still be used going into combat and might trigger while in combat.
So camo is no longer full invisibility but also is no longer tied to movement speed. You can run full pelt and be as cloaked as you are when standing still. Give it a similar out-of-combat timer to celerity and regen. Now your slightly harder to see so hiding is a bit easier (but not just stand on the floor easy) but you will also blink in and out of existence (while not being hit) during combat making it harder to track (similar bonus to what silence gives you). Add in obs not decloaking you (just show up on the map), but maybe keep scans decloak.
No longer needs the comm to counter it. No longer completely useless in combat. No longer hard countered by obs.
On a related note, I kinda liked the "UV Flashlight" idea somebody had.
It would be better if cloak effected radar, and possibly what the comm can see when he scans. Perhaps when the scan goes off, players have a small amount of time to stop moving or they are seen.
I think little things like that would make up for a better cloak, rather than actual 'invisibility' which is kind of gimmicky, and as I say, hard to balance.
Comm/marines not seeing aliens on map/minimap would be powerful enough in its own right.
That way they and units near by them can see the red dots on their mini maps.
I'm against anything that marines have to buy to counter what aliens get for free. Asymetric or not, cost is universal. There either needs to be a marine upgrade (motion tracking) or cloak should have a sound that gets louder/changes the closer the marine is to the cloaked unit.