Allow me to clear some of the myths (or attempt to, once again) going on here.
I noticed somebody mentioned that Bile Bomb does double damage to structures. Yeah, no. No, it doesn't. I don't know how many more times I'll have to say this, but... "Do not trust the wiki. Open Decoda in your NS2 folder, use it to open DamageTypes.lua, Balance.lua, BalanceHealth.lua, and BalanceMisc.lua. These will tell you the exact numbers for almost everything, and I guarantee you they're not that hard to read."
Digging through LUA is just as likely to lead to misinterpretations of fact, as we just saw earlier in this thread. The wiki exists specifically for this purpose - if there's an inaccuracy there, fix it yourself. Preferably with ingame testing to verify your LUA reading.
Aliens are getting a tool that allows them to cross the map between any two points - a tool that shares significant similarities with phase gates.
Yes, also in the same sense that leap and cel are like a jet-pack.
As an aside, you'd be better to use blink as an example for that imho.
The point is moot though, since no matter how 'different' people want to claim gorge tunnels are, the reality is that it's not different in *PRINCIPLE*. Yeah the implementation is different than for the marines, but the gorge tunnel is no different than a phase gate in the principle that it allows members of a team to traverse the map in 'teleportation' fashion, bypassing any enemies and risk they might have encountered had they went on foot; also doing it in a fraction of the time.
So you can dress it up all you like, but if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. Gorge tunnels are the alien equivalent of marine phase gates. Why deny the obvious? Who are we trying to kid here?
I'm actually happy to see so many people disagree with my power node suggestion, since that clearly shows how broken power nodes really are.
Broken or not, that was not the reason for people disagreeing with your post.
They were disagreeing with my suggestion that aliens should be subject to the same inane power node mechanic as marines. The fact they disagree validates my view that power nodes are a bad mechanic, since if it was a good mechanic they wouldn't have disagreed.
Allow me to clear some of the myths (or attempt to, once again) going on here.
I noticed somebody mentioned that Bile Bomb does double damage to structures. Yeah, no. No, it doesn't. I don't know how many more times I'll have to say this, but... "Do not trust the wiki. Open Decoda in your NS2 folder, use it to open DamageTypes.lua, Balance.lua, BalanceHealth.lua, and BalanceMisc.lua. These will tell you the exact numbers for almost everything, and I guarantee you they're not that hard to read."
Digging through LUA is just as likely to lead to misinterpretations of fact, as we just saw earlier in this thread. The wiki exists specifically for this purpose - if there's an inaccuracy there, fix it yourself. Preferably with ingame testing to verify your LUA reading.
That lua code is what is loaded every time you go into a game, and it holds all of the values used. These are subject to change between patches, but as of the time of this post, that information is correct.
And I'd prefer not to be a wiki editor. Too much like work... kind of like that long post I made that nobody's going to read. Which begs the question as to why I did it.
Oh well, guess it seemed like a good idea at the time.
They were disagreeing with my suggestion that aliens should be subject to the same inane power node mechanic as marines. The fact they disagree validates my view that power nodes are a bad mechanic, since if it was a good mechanic they wouldn't have disagreed.
They can't have it both ways.
Argh! you quoted my wrong part! And you're trying to have it both ways too!
I'm in if marines also need to lay carpet everywhere where they want to build.
This. If your power node is implemented, that gives a weakness to aliens, already dealing with infestation, without giving marines that same issue. You might ask, if we can't give a power node to alien, and can't give carpet for marines, why not remove both?
Then you end up with a bland, dull, unoriginal game (and even less for coms to do).
Finally, it's like bad spawning in COH games. Its annoying, it's poorly balanced and its the only current way of going about and until you or I, or anyone else can think of something different (please keep throwing ideas if you have them guys, modding is the spice of life and all that) it is all we have.\
PS: No, it was intentional for me to compare leap + cel and jet-packs to your PG to gorge tunnel. Yes, they have many similarities but so do apples and oranges.
I'm in if marines also need to lay carpet everywhere where they want to build.
This. If your power node is implemented, that gives a weakness to aliens
That's my point though, you call it a weakness, yet others say it is NOT a weakness and marines just need to learn to play. Which is it? If it is that big a weakness that you would object to aliens being subject to it, then it's a bad mechanic. That's the point I'm trying to make here.
If people want to keep this inane "I win" button in the game, then marines need to have a similar button they can press. If not power nodes, then something else. Some small chamber that will disable everything in a hive room should one marine happen to take it out. Fair is fair.
The marine com failed to see the onos coming. He had more than 30 seconds to drop a scan. From the point the onos wrecked nano to the point he entered control. Even if the onos would not have walked to control. The com should have scanned to warn the marines in pipe / sub that an onos is coming.
The marines managed to get down sub access and injured pipe. If he would have some backup IPs in Cargo, the game wouldn't be over. In fact they could have rushed pipe before a new hive would be ready in control or sub.
All in all, this is a bad example against power nodes. The onos-gorge-rush would have devastated control even without the power node mechanic. And thats because of multiple mistakes the marine commander did.
That said, I think power nodes that work solely as light switches instead of giving power to buildings would work better. They would need to have way less health and be repaired way faster. But than we have a battlefield modifier. And not a I-Win-Button.
I'm in if marines also need to lay carpet everywhere where they want to build.
This. If your power node is implemented, that gives a weakness to aliens
That's my point though, you call it a weakness, yet others say it is NOT a weakness and marines just need to learn to play. Which is it? If it is that big a weakness that you would object to aliens being subject to it, then it's a bad mechanic. That's the point I'm trying to make here.
If people want to keep this inane "I win" button in the game, then marines need to have a similar button they can press. If not power nodes, then something else. Some small chamber that will disable everything in a hive room should one marine happen to take it out. Fair is fair.
It is most certainly a weakness, not sure who is saying it’s NOT, but it’s a tactical weakness (does that make any sense); a rush might try and kill the weaker obvs or go straight for the power, if com beacons he loses.
Would you go for the power if it only had a reactor? Hope not.
It's not that mirrored weakness passed onto the aliens, aliens can't deal with the power node... Karma node... whatever you call it idea as easly as marines can, making it a bigger problem for them than for marines. Too big a problem? I do think so, as do many others, but I am more undecided on the power node.
Also, I used weakness to describe the infestation that karm has to place down, if that is given to marines it could be a bigger problem for them too. (I'm not going to imagine how the stuff might be placed, use your own imagination).
Is asking if marines should have their own version of cysts prove that they are an I-WIN button for marines?
I'm in if marines also need to lay carpet everywhere where they want to build.
This. If your power node is implemented, that gives a weakness to aliens
That's my point though, you call it a weakness, yet others say it is NOT a weakness and marines just need to learn to play. Which is it? If it is that big a weakness that you would object to aliens being subject to it, then it's a bad mechanic. That's the point I'm trying to make here.
If people want to keep this inane "I win" button in the game, then marines need to have a similar button they can press. If not power nodes, then something else. Some small chamber that will disable everything in a hive room should one marine happen to take it out. Fair is fair.
As I said earlier - if that's your argument, then aliens get insta-teleport with phase gates and beacon. Fair is fair.
If anything I think the powernode can actually be of benefit to the marines sometimes. Sure the broken notification system means it's vulnerable to ninja attacks, but more often than not it serves to distract aliens into attacking it when it's more beneficial to attack other things - see: pub endgames where aliens have enough onos to suicide rush the command station, but instead go for the power node, lose an onos in the process, and can't even stick around to mop up the remaining marines (when they wouldn't have to if they had targeted the command station). See also: attacks on 2nd tech points where a beacon could have been prevented if obs was attacked first, or the power goes down but all the aliens get mopped up or have to retreat because nobody was on the phase gate and the whole marine team has phased through.
I still like the power node mechanics, but as others have pointed out, there should be a proper warning for the commander (maybe even all marines in case of tech point powernodes) when it's attacked. In this case the commander should have beaconed, that's what it's for, but failed to do so. That might be because he saw the danger too late, but honestly, when you start pushing for one or more hives, you really should anticipate a base rush anyway.
That being said, multiple gorges stacking bile bomb are also arguably a bit too good at dealing structural damage. So maybe that would be worth taking a look at imo.
Warnings sometimes do not appear because UWE has coded it deliberately not show within a certain timelimit of a previous similar event. In order to prevent notification spam i suppose.
Either way, fixing warnings does not solve powernode sniping. A beacon is 4 seconds, so you've got 4-8 seconds left to kill an onos, not to mention bile damage applies as an unpreventable dot.
We've been over this discussion territory in the beta a few times already - simply the alien threat to base rush is too high due to powernode design.
irEric, you have no idea what you are talking about. Marine turtles in pubs only happend if aliens are unable to use bilebomb and have no teamwork. The same amount of players as in the video (2 gorges and 1 onos) is enough to break that turtle. Onos runs in and draws fire, gorgies throw 1-2 bilebombs each, retreat, rinse and repeat.
We leave the power node socket as is, but aliens now need to build alien versions of power nodes. They have to hook in some kind of organic element that fits into the socket and siphons power. Just as is when marines socket the node, without the node socketed, no harvester resources would be collected, no chambers would be active and no cysts would be active. (hydras excluded) In hive rooms, taking out the power disables all alien upgrade chambers and prevents anyone from spawning in an egg. On the 'pro' side, there would be no marine ninja phase gates in rooms where aliens have socketed the power nodes since marines would need to kill an alien power node to build their own.
Sound fair? Surely if it is *SO EASY* to defend against power node attacks, there should be no reason why the aliens would be impacted by this... Amirite?!? Fair is fair, let's spread the power node love around.
They have to build with on infestation, which can be far worse if you are playing right. Marines can still expand when alien are camped around their base. Aliens can't do the same. I have cut alien off a ton of times and didn't allow them to even get going in games (thanks path to maintenance!).
Aliens also can't turtle. When they make it so aliens can turtle, your argument will start making sense...
I do like the suggested change of main base power nodes, or tech point power nodes where a chair is built, getting extra health.
I'm in if marines also need to lay carpet everywhere where they want to build.
This. If your power node is implemented, that gives a weakness to aliens
That's my point though, you call it a weakness, yet others say it is NOT a weakness and marines just need to learn to play. Which is it? If it is that big a weakness that you would object to aliens being subject to it, then it's a bad mechanic. That's the point I'm trying to make here.
If people want to keep this inane "I win" button in the game, then marines need to have a similar button they can press. If not power nodes, then something else. Some small chamber that will disable everything in a hive room should one marine happen to take it out. Fair is fair.
You are terrible with logic. It is a weakness. Aliens have their own weaknesses. You want to give aliens an aditional weakness, without doing the same for marines. Yeah, that sure makes sense!
If people want to keep this inane "I win" button in the game, then marines need to have a similar button they can press. If not power nodes, then something else. Some small chamber that will disable everything in a hive room should one marine happen to take it out. Fair is fair.
As I said earlier - if that's your argument, then aliens get insta-teleport with phase gates and beacon. Fair is fair.
You seem to be confusing asymmetry with balance and game objectives.
Balanced Game Objectives > Asymmetry
If marines had to simultaneously assault and kill all three alien hives in order to win, but aliens only had to punch the "I win" power node (with no warning to marines) and lazily chomp down the base before doing it to the next one, would you consider those to be balanced game objectives?
Of course not. Just because they are asymmetric game objectives, doesn't make them balanced game objectives. The winning conditions for each team need to be balanced. Period. If one team has an easier set of winning conditions then the game is inherently imbalanced. Trying to draw cysts into this comparison is inane. Cysts aren't part of a winning condition.
So if you can't handle the thought of aliens needing to use power nodes like marines (or a mechanic that ends the game in a similar fashion), then the only solution is to remove power nodes from the game.
but i would like to see the option of "upgrading" a power node for 15 res that adds thick armor plating around it which would go a long way to helping the marines realize, but also the whole room should flash red on the minimap whenever the power is attacked.
If people want to keep this inane "I win" button in the game, then marines need to have a similar button they can press. If not power nodes, then something else. Some small chamber that will disable everything in a hive room should one marine happen to take it out. Fair is fair.
As I said earlier - if that's your argument, then aliens get insta-teleport with phase gates and beacon. Fair is fair.
You seem to be confusing asymmetry with balance and game objectives.
Balanced Game Objectives > Asymmetry
If marines had to simultaneously assault and kill all three alien hives in order to win, but aliens only had to punch the "I win" power node (with no warning to marines) and lazily chomp down the base before doing it to the next one, would you consider those to be balanced game objectives?
Of course not. Just because they are asymmetric game objectives, doesn't make them balanced game objectives. The winning conditions for each team need to be balanced. Period. If one team has an easier set of winning conditions then the game is inherently imbalanced. Trying to draw cysts into this comparison is inane. Cysts aren't part of a winning condition.
So if you can't handle the thought of aliens needing to use power nodes like marines (or a mechanic that ends the game in a similar fashion), then the only solution is to remove power nodes from the game.
Balanced Game Objectives > Asymmetry
So in order for it to be balanced, the aliens need both the alien and marine weaknesses, while the marines only get the marine weakness!
So I ran across this today... I single it out because it's a prime example of what I consider to be one of the most broken aspects of the game.
There has been much whining and Aliens OP-ing and L2P-ing and L2aim-ing and L2scout-ing and L2-end-the-game-before-2nd-hive-ing and gnashing of teeth and Gorge hate. But just watch:
That looks to me like that's 1 Onos and 2 Gorges taking down power in ~8s, totally turning around a game in which the Aliens were about to lose.
It really is partly L2comm here, and power node mechanics being biased towards aliens.
#1) Where was the obs? In the back of the comm station towards Skylights side. The scan radius is centered around the comm station, but does not extend very far out from the 2 entrances. You can clearly see that the onos was able to get right up to the base entrance before the obs detected him. On this map, I have made it a point to put 2 obs... one in the alcove near the power node, one behind the extractor. This covers most of the hallway leading to Skylights and Topo, respectively. You may think that the advance warning is not necessary and that a 2nd obs is a waste of res. I don't think so.
#2) What was the comm doing when the rush was detected? He had plenty of time to call in a beacon, or at the very least nanoshield the power node.
Beacon -> possibly lose momentum on killing Pipeline, but get the chance to kill an expensive onos that the losing aliens could not afford to lose.
No beacon -> Nanoshield the power node to buy time. Finish off Pipeline if the attack is well under way (ARCs, exos, etc.) to drop aliens down to 1 hive and do a base swap. Recycle everything in control and move it all down to the other tech point, and take Pipeline. Push out and kill the last hive.
The fact that nothing happened at all probably means that he never saw the rush coming (didn't see it appear on the map in time, or didn't see it at all), and never anticipated a rush on Control. The loss of Control was totally the comm's fault here.
Questions for today's studio audience:
1) What would the marines need in resources and players to achieve a shock effect similar to this, eg: game turnaround in 8 seconds? This was a 3 player attack at a cost of 95pres (and bile).
2) What would the marines need in resources and player count to defend against this.
3) In light of the above, do you think that this dynamic is balanced, or has a positive, negative or neutral affect on game balance.
While I'm whining, new free content is really awesome and appreciated, but I gotta laugh at a Gorge expansion patch right now. Priorities people.
1) power node -> ninja PG -> 4 or 5 marines with at least W2 LMGs. Cost: 15 res. Hive dies in seconds under focused fire. I pulled this off a few weeks ago, ninja-ed a PG near Pipeline.
2) 10 res for a beacon. Or 15 res for a 2nd obs to see the rush coming and buy yourself time to decide what to do. 5 res for a nanoshield for an extra 4 - 5 seconds.
3) AYFKM, this is a troll question and should deserve a troll answer, but I'll bite. It is slightly unbalanced for the power node mechanics, or at least the health/armor of the power node, but a surprise rush against an inattentive comm is a legit tactic. A 10 res beacon would have put that onos into the ground, much less the two gorges.
tl;dr Marine comm needed to be more aware of base rush tactics and should have anticipated something like this. A 2nd obs would have greatly helped to give at least 3 - 4 seconds of advance warning. Marine comm should have used nanoshield. He should have also beaconed to kill the onos, or keep pushing to finish off Pipeline if the attack was well under way (ie. ARCs are set up and firing, exos are covering the ARCs, etc). Power nodes are slightly biased towards aliens - partly due to current armor/hp, partly due to map design.
tl;dr If Gorgenapper is not your comm, you are going to lose to a bilerush. Only he can miraculously spread out all the important buildings in your marine base, so 2 dont get hit by 1 bilebomb. His eyes are always on the minimap/every marine base which is getting attacked. He can nanoshield anything in the blink of an eye. His mariens are able to take on 3 skulks alone. He can oneshot a hive with a roundhouskick.
tl;dr If Gorgenapper is not your comm, you are going to lose to a bilerush. Only he can miraculously spread out all the important buildings in your marine base, so 2 dont get hit by 1 bilebomb. His eyes are always on the minimap/every marine base which is getting attacked. He can nanoshield anything in the blink of an eye. His mariens are able to take on 3 skulks alone. He can oneshot a hive with a roundhouskick.
Exactly. I can also punch a gorge through my monitor and send him flying back to 2001.
So in order for it to be balanced, the aliens need both the alien and marine weaknesses, while the marines only get the marine weakness?
So tell me... What weakness do aliens have NOW - with respect to a game winning objective - that marines don't have? What aspect of marine gameplay do the aliens have that the marines lack that is directly related to winning the game?
Let's remember now, the primary game objective is supposed to be the destruction of the command chairs/hives. Right off the top the marines face an imbalance in game objectives. How? Well the marine team can lose the game if they don't have an IP, or there is no power to the IP, and the marines are killed. So the aliens don't have to kill ANY command chairs, they only need to kill the power in the room where the IP(s) is located - or destroy the IP(s). With that done they don't have to kill the command chairs at all. Marines can have 4 command chairs, and aliens wouldn't have to kill a single one if they killed power in the room with the IP(s) and managed to kill the remaining marines.
For the marine team to win versus the aliens, there is no such EZmode. You have to kill the hive(s) to attain a game winning objective. Hives will continue to poop out eggs as long as they are alive, so you can't win the game without killing the hive. Furthermore, simply 'egg locking' one hive (what some would incorrectly compare to killing/disabling an IP) doesn't prevent aliens from spawning at any other hive OR a shift. If aliens have four hives, marines need to kill all four hives. If marines have 4 tech points, aliens potentially only need to disable the power at ONE tech point to win the game.
Balance? I think not.
So please, what are these other alien weaknesses with respect to game objectives? How can the aliens lose the game without losing their hives?
Egg lock. Simple. You only putting IPs at one tech point is your own supidity. That is not the games fault. You can't use stuid play as a reason to make changes.
Fine, lets put your little theory into play. Now aliens also need power. They first have to cyst to each location and build the power before building their RT... Yeah, sure sounds exactly like what marines have to do! This wouldn't even be a weakness for aliens. You just made it take twice as long for marines to clear an area before they can build.
If you don't think things like cysts and egg locks are bad for aliens, why don't you explain why aliens never turtle in one hive for 20 minutes like marines do. I mean, if they have no game ending weakness, wouldn't it be far easier to turtle? The reality is, they can't turtle at all in their current state. Even with power nodes, marines can extend games for a long time with only one base. Reality shows that your theories are made from terrible logic.
So please, what are these other alien weaknesses with respect to game objectives? How can the aliens lose the game without losing their hives?
Egg Lock, doesn't loose them the game but neither does IP destruction. They are different but comparable in my opinion.
Another Game Winning weakness that aliens have is no units that can fire with out LOS. ARCs are a huge advantage late game. It being the aliens responsibility to take territory via infestation. When the round starts 95% of the map marines can build on.
I think all these weakness Power node, IP, Infestation, ARC's and so on are supposed to be balanced with strategies and organization not code changes. There are some Balance changes that can be made but I think alerts, cost, build time, health and armor tweaks are more appropriate than fundamental mechanic changes.
Wrong. Egg lock will NOT win you the game. Once you kill all eggs, does the game screen pop up "Marines win"...? No. Egg lock is not a game objective and it is not a winning game condition. If you egg lock a hive aliens just spawn at another IP err, "shift". (Don't want to call it an IP since it breaks the illusion of asymmetry.)
In any case, I never said marines would only have one IP, I generalized since the marines might have one comm chair or four. If they only have one, they don't have the luxury of building IPs all over the map like the aliens do.
Bottom line, the winning conditions for aliens to achieve are easier than the winning conditions for marines to achieve.
A single hive can have a maximum of 9 eggs. In the worst case scenario they are all mature (unlikely, but let's roll with it). That means you have to take out 3150 hp and 225 ap worth of stuff, so effectively they have nearly the same amount of health as a power node. Kill the eggs. A new one will spawn every 4 seconds, having one marine running around the room killing newly spawning eggs isn't exactly hard. The rest of the marines gun down the hive while the aliens are watching it happen, unable to do anything. If that isn't a game ending move to you then I don't know what to think anymore.
And since a lot of people used 2 onos in the power node example, we may as well include 2 dual exos in the marine example. I'm too lazy to actually count the DPS they do, but I'm pretty sure they can kill a hive in under 10 seconds if they both focus on the hive. If someone could calculate the DPS we'd know exactly how little time it takes.
Comments
Digging through LUA is just as likely to lead to misinterpretations of fact, as we just saw earlier in this thread. The wiki exists specifically for this purpose - if there's an inaccuracy there, fix it yourself. Preferably with ingame testing to verify your LUA reading.
The point is moot though, since no matter how 'different' people want to claim gorge tunnels are, the reality is that it's not different in *PRINCIPLE*. Yeah the implementation is different than for the marines, but the gorge tunnel is no different than a phase gate in the principle that it allows members of a team to traverse the map in 'teleportation' fashion, bypassing any enemies and risk they might have encountered had they went on foot; also doing it in a fraction of the time.
So you can dress it up all you like, but if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. Gorge tunnels are the alien equivalent of marine phase gates. Why deny the obvious? Who are we trying to kid here?
They were disagreeing with my suggestion that aliens should be subject to the same inane power node mechanic as marines. The fact they disagree validates my view that power nodes are a bad mechanic, since if it was a good mechanic they wouldn't have disagreed.
They can't have it both ways.
That lua code is what is loaded every time you go into a game, and it holds all of the values used. These are subject to change between patches, but as of the time of this post, that information is correct.
And I'd prefer not to be a wiki editor. Too much like work... kind of like that long post I made that nobody's going to read. Which begs the question as to why I did it.
Oh well, guess it seemed like a good idea at the time.
Argh! you quoted my wrong part! And you're trying to have it both ways too!
This. If your power node is implemented, that gives a weakness to aliens, already dealing with infestation, without giving marines that same issue. You might ask, if we can't give a power node to alien, and can't give carpet for marines, why not remove both?
Then you end up with a bland, dull, unoriginal game (and even less for coms to do).
Finally, it's like bad spawning in COH games. Its annoying, it's poorly balanced and its the only current way of going about and until you or I, or anyone else can think of something different (please keep throwing ideas if you have them guys, modding is the spice of life and all that) it is all we have.\
PS: No, it was intentional for me to compare leap + cel and jet-packs to your PG to gorge tunnel. Yes, they have many similarities but so do apples and oranges.
Please do consider being a wiki editor, my friends might buy the game if they see active work on it
If people want to keep this inane "I win" button in the game, then marines need to have a similar button they can press. If not power nodes, then something else. Some small chamber that will disable everything in a hive room should one marine happen to take it out. Fair is fair.
That said, I think power nodes that work solely as light switches instead of giving power to buildings would work better. They would need to have way less health and be repaired way faster. But than we have a battlefield modifier. And not a I-Win-Button.
It is most certainly a weakness, not sure who is saying it’s NOT, but it’s a tactical weakness (does that make any sense); a rush might try and kill the weaker obvs or go straight for the power, if com beacons he loses.
Would you go for the power if it only had a reactor? Hope not.
It's not that mirrored weakness passed onto the aliens, aliens can't deal with the power node... Karma node... whatever you call it idea as easly as marines can, making it a bigger problem for them than for marines. Too big a problem? I do think so, as do many others, but I am more undecided on the power node.
Also, I used weakness to describe the infestation that karm has to place down, if that is given to marines it could be a bigger problem for them too. (I'm not going to imagine how the stuff might be placed, use your own imagination).
Is asking if marines should have their own version of cysts prove that they are an I-WIN button for marines?
As I said earlier - if that's your argument, then aliens get insta-teleport with phase gates and beacon. Fair is fair.
If anything I think the powernode can actually be of benefit to the marines sometimes. Sure the broken notification system means it's vulnerable to ninja attacks, but more often than not it serves to distract aliens into attacking it when it's more beneficial to attack other things - see: pub endgames where aliens have enough onos to suicide rush the command station, but instead go for the power node, lose an onos in the process, and can't even stick around to mop up the remaining marines (when they wouldn't have to if they had targeted the command station). See also: attacks on 2nd tech points where a beacon could have been prevented if obs was attacked first, or the power goes down but all the aliens get mopped up or have to retreat because nobody was on the phase gate and the whole marine team has phased through.
That being said, multiple gorges stacking bile bomb are also arguably a bit too good at dealing structural damage. So maybe that would be worth taking a look at imo.
Either way, fixing warnings does not solve powernode sniping. A beacon is 4 seconds, so you've got 4-8 seconds left to kill an onos, not to mention bile damage applies as an unpreventable dot.
We've been over this discussion territory in the beta a few times already - simply the alien threat to base rush is too high due to powernode design.
They have to build with on infestation, which can be far worse if you are playing right. Marines can still expand when alien are camped around their base. Aliens can't do the same. I have cut alien off a ton of times and didn't allow them to even get going in games (thanks path to maintenance!).
Aliens also can't turtle. When they make it so aliens can turtle, your argument will start making sense...
I do like the suggested change of main base power nodes, or tech point power nodes where a chair is built, getting extra health.
You are terrible with logic. It is a weakness. Aliens have their own weaknesses. You want to give aliens an aditional weakness, without doing the same for marines. Yeah, that sure makes sense!
You can plant it on structure's and run back and blow it up. (not sure of the damage model, but I like the concept )
Or maybe a device you plant on something and it kills it over time. That way you have to guard it.
Ninja phase gate = 15 team res. Get a shotgunner or 2 in there, assuming you have at least 4-5 rushers? Bye bye hive.
Or...
Tricky arc rush... 45-60 res + res of pinging.
Seems like aliens got the short straw.
Balanced Game Objectives > Asymmetry
If marines had to simultaneously assault and kill all three alien hives in order to win, but aliens only had to punch the "I win" power node (with no warning to marines) and lazily chomp down the base before doing it to the next one, would you consider those to be balanced game objectives?
Of course not. Just because they are asymmetric game objectives, doesn't make them balanced game objectives. The winning conditions for each team need to be balanced. Period. If one team has an easier set of winning conditions then the game is inherently imbalanced. Trying to draw cysts into this comparison is inane. Cysts aren't part of a winning condition.
So if you can't handle the thought of aliens needing to use power nodes like marines (or a mechanic that ends the game in a similar fashion), then the only solution is to remove power nodes from the game.
Balanced Game Objectives > Asymmetry
but i would like to see the option of "upgrading" a power node for 15 res that adds thick armor plating around it which would go a long way to helping the marines realize, but also the whole room should flash red on the minimap whenever the power is attacked.
LOL...
Then neither is power. You have to kill the Com chairs to win.
So in order for it to be balanced, the aliens need both the alien and marine weaknesses, while the marines only get the marine weakness!
Do you really think this makes sense?
It really is partly L2comm here, and power node mechanics being biased towards aliens.
#1) Where was the obs? In the back of the comm station towards Skylights side. The scan radius is centered around the comm station, but does not extend very far out from the 2 entrances. You can clearly see that the onos was able to get right up to the base entrance before the obs detected him. On this map, I have made it a point to put 2 obs... one in the alcove near the power node, one behind the extractor. This covers most of the hallway leading to Skylights and Topo, respectively. You may think that the advance warning is not necessary and that a 2nd obs is a waste of res. I don't think so.
#2) What was the comm doing when the rush was detected? He had plenty of time to call in a beacon, or at the very least nanoshield the power node.
Beacon -> possibly lose momentum on killing Pipeline, but get the chance to kill an expensive onos that the losing aliens could not afford to lose.
No beacon -> Nanoshield the power node to buy time. Finish off Pipeline if the attack is well under way (ARCs, exos, etc.) to drop aliens down to 1 hive and do a base swap. Recycle everything in control and move it all down to the other tech point, and take Pipeline. Push out and kill the last hive.
The fact that nothing happened at all probably means that he never saw the rush coming (didn't see it appear on the map in time, or didn't see it at all), and never anticipated a rush on Control. The loss of Control was totally the comm's fault here.
1) power node -> ninja PG -> 4 or 5 marines with at least W2 LMGs. Cost: 15 res. Hive dies in seconds under focused fire. I pulled this off a few weeks ago, ninja-ed a PG near Pipeline.
2) 10 res for a beacon. Or 15 res for a 2nd obs to see the rush coming and buy yourself time to decide what to do. 5 res for a nanoshield for an extra 4 - 5 seconds.
3) AYFKM, this is a troll question and should deserve a troll answer, but I'll bite. It is slightly unbalanced for the power node mechanics, or at least the health/armor of the power node, but a surprise rush against an inattentive comm is a legit tactic. A 10 res beacon would have put that onos into the ground, much less the two gorges.
tl;dr Marine comm needed to be more aware of base rush tactics and should have anticipated something like this. A 2nd obs would have greatly helped to give at least 3 - 4 seconds of advance warning. Marine comm should have used nanoshield. He should have also beaconed to kill the onos, or keep pushing to finish off Pipeline if the attack was well under way (ie. ARCs are set up and firing, exos are covering the ARCs, etc). Power nodes are slightly biased towards aliens - partly due to current armor/hp, partly due to map design.
Exactly. I can also punch a gorge through my monitor and send him flying back to 2001.
Let's remember now, the primary game objective is supposed to be the destruction of the command chairs/hives. Right off the top the marines face an imbalance in game objectives. How? Well the marine team can lose the game if they don't have an IP, or there is no power to the IP, and the marines are killed. So the aliens don't have to kill ANY command chairs, they only need to kill the power in the room where the IP(s) is located - or destroy the IP(s). With that done they don't have to kill the command chairs at all. Marines can have 4 command chairs, and aliens wouldn't have to kill a single one if they killed power in the room with the IP(s) and managed to kill the remaining marines.
For the marine team to win versus the aliens, there is no such EZmode. You have to kill the hive(s) to attain a game winning objective. Hives will continue to poop out eggs as long as they are alive, so you can't win the game without killing the hive. Furthermore, simply 'egg locking' one hive (what some would incorrectly compare to killing/disabling an IP) doesn't prevent aliens from spawning at any other hive OR a shift. If aliens have four hives, marines need to kill all four hives. If marines have 4 tech points, aliens potentially only need to disable the power at ONE tech point to win the game.
Balance? I think not.
So please, what are these other alien weaknesses with respect to game objectives? How can the aliens lose the game without losing their hives?
Fine, lets put your little theory into play. Now aliens also need power. They first have to cyst to each location and build the power before building their RT... Yeah, sure sounds exactly like what marines have to do! This wouldn't even be a weakness for aliens. You just made it take twice as long for marines to clear an area before they can build.
If you don't think things like cysts and egg locks are bad for aliens, why don't you explain why aliens never turtle in one hive for 20 minutes like marines do. I mean, if they have no game ending weakness, wouldn't it be far easier to turtle? The reality is, they can't turtle at all in their current state. Even with power nodes, marines can extend games for a long time with only one base. Reality shows that your theories are made from terrible logic.
Egg Lock, doesn't loose them the game but neither does IP destruction. They are different but comparable in my opinion.
Another Game Winning weakness that aliens have is no units that can fire with out LOS. ARCs are a huge advantage late game. It being the aliens responsibility to take territory via infestation. When the round starts 95% of the map marines can build on.
I think all these weakness Power node, IP, Infestation, ARC's and so on are supposed to be balanced with strategies and organization not code changes. There are some Balance changes that can be made but I think alerts, cost, build time, health and armor tweaks are more appropriate than fundamental mechanic changes.
In any case, I never said marines would only have one IP, I generalized since the marines might have one comm chair or four. If they only have one, they don't have the luxury of building IPs all over the map like the aliens do.
Bottom line, the winning conditions for aliens to achieve are easier than the winning conditions for marines to achieve.
kPowerPointHealth = 2000 kPowerPointArmor = 1000
kEggHealth = 350 kEggArmor = 0
kMatureEggHealth = 350 kMatureEggArmor = 25
kAlienEggsPerHive = 9
A single hive can have a maximum of 9 eggs. In the worst case scenario they are all mature (unlikely, but let's roll with it). That means you have to take out 3150 hp and 225 ap worth of stuff, so effectively they have nearly the same amount of health as a power node. Kill the eggs. A new one will spawn every 4 seconds, having one marine running around the room killing newly spawning eggs isn't exactly hard. The rest of the marines gun down the hive while the aliens are watching it happen, unable to do anything. If that isn't a game ending move to you then I don't know what to think anymore.
And since a lot of people used 2 onos in the power node example, we may as well include 2 dual exos in the marine example. I'm too lazy to actually count the DPS they do, but I'm pretty sure they can kill a hive in under 10 seconds if they both focus on the hive. If someone could calculate the DPS we'd know exactly how little time it takes.