I was thinking that but wasn't sure as it didn't mention the cones.
Hmmphh. Is the main cone the same size as the previous max damage cone, or bigger? I worry that skulks will get bummed even harder now than they already did with any marine who could move + aim, will just have to see how it plays out.
So the skulk bite cone is unchanged yes? I.e it's just 75 instead of the old 25 and 50? That sounds nice. I don't think there would be any significant balance problems with that, given how effective the new marine hit registration is.
As for EXOS, it's a tricky one. What made the old Heavy Armour good was that marines could still use different weapons, build, weld and were a little more flexible overall. Since the exo has a fixed weapon, the only thing you can mess with is damage output, armour and manoeuvrability. Making them tankier will make them more frustrating to counter, making them deal significantly less damage will make them less enjoyable to play and making them significantly faster will break the whole 'heavy mech' design of it all.
The only reason I personally hated the bite cones was the lack of feedback. It was impossible to tell at a glance how much damage I was doing so I couldn't estimate the number of bites I needed for a kill. With the skulk movement changes this isn't unwarranted and hopefully will allow a bit more air control to be added.
edit: I guess I should be more CORRECT and say bite cylinders. Geometry.
having heard rumours about this mod and UWE intentions regarding its integration, is anyone in the know able to comment?
without even thinking about the changes proposed in this mod and their relative merits or lack thereof, its a concern to hear that the development team is considering a wholesale redesign of the game 6 months after launch.
having heard rumours about this mod and UWE intentions regarding its integration, is anyone in the know able to comment?
without even thinking about the changes proposed in this mod and their relative merits or lack thereof, its a concern to hear that the development team is considering a wholesale redesign of the game 6 months after launch.
Uh, I wouldn't call this a redesign; just changing tons of values, changing how matches progress, and making things feel nicer
The goal is the same, gain control of the map, eliminate the enemy main base; it's not like it turned into capture the flag or something
Not a fan of the removal of glancing bites with nothing else to compensate. To repeat my original argument, to the ordinary player the bite is a spam attack. They hold down the button and pray for a hit. This has never changed at any point in NS's life. Even Hugh still does it to this day. To these players, the 75 bite cone is frustratingly small. They miss constantly and they don't know why. It's baffling to me that the balance mod would make the rifle hit detection more generous and then remove all forgiveness from the bite hit detection. I don't see any positives to removing glancing bites.
without even thinking about the changes proposed in this mod and their relative merits or lack thereof, its a concern to hear that the development team is considering a wholesale redesign of the game 6 months after launch.
I kind of disagree. One of the things that kept me playing NS1 for so long was that every once in a while they made a moderate shift to the mechanics that freshened it up and invalidated old strategies. I'd actually be concerned if they weren't adjusting core mechanics twice yearly. I see where you're coming from though, big changes leave room for things to go horribly wrong.
I kind of disagree. One of the things that kept me playing NS1 for so long was that every once in a while they made a moderate shift to the mechanics that freshened it up and invalidated old strategies. I'd actually be concerned if they weren't adjusting core mechanics twice yearly. I see where you're coming from though, big changes leave room for things to go horribly wrong.
this mod goes way beyond making adjustments though - they are changing how almost everything works. im not even debating whether things will be better or worse.
in my experience, balance mods (however good) tend to be bad news for the scenes. at best, the scene split's, at worst, the balance mod will be forced through, and players will quit in droves. make this mod for fun, try and influence basens2 design if you can, but UWE talking of making this basens2 retroactively is just madness. i hope its just flayra's internal politics.
I kind of disagree. One of the things that kept me playing NS1 for so long was that every once in a while they made a moderate shift to the mechanics that freshened it up and invalidated old strategies. I'd actually be concerned if they weren't adjusting core mechanics twice yearly. I see where you're coming from though, big changes leave room for things to go horribly wrong.
this mod goes way beyond making adjustments though - they are changing how almost everything works. im not even debating whether things will be better or worse.
in my experience, balance mods (however good) tend to be bad news for the scenes. at best, the scene split's, at worst, the balance mod will be forced through, and players will quit in droves. make this mod for fun, try and influence basens2 design if you can, but UWE talking of making this basens2 retroactively is just madness. i hope its just flayra's internal politics.
I'm pretty sure they are cherry picking features and changes and not using the whole overhaul in one go. I could be very wrong on that though, I don't follow this thread that closely and certainly don't have the inside track at UWE. I still wouldn't mind but that's just me, again I love it when NS undergoes huge changes.
I'd rather flat out miss than get a 25/50 hit and be puzzled about the marine not being dead after 3 bites. It's infuriating how many times I died because of moving on to the next target and the 'dead' marine killing me...
I'd rather flat out miss than get a 25/50 hit and be puzzled about the marine not being dead after 3 bites. It's infuriating how many times I died because of moving on to the next target and the 'dead' marine killing me...
rather than completely changing the bite hit detection system, a more suitable solution to this problem would be to implement a more prominent cue for when you have made a kill. i also think it should be easier to distinguish between an assist and a kill.
I'm pretty sure they are cherry picking features and changes and not using the whole overhaul in one go. I could be very wrong on that though, I don't follow this thread that closely and certainly don't have the inside track at UWE. I still wouldn't mind but that's just me, again I love it when NS undergoes huge changes.
Putting all of this in at once would be waaaaaaaaay too much even though I like most of whats in here over live.
it wont be all included. i will soon remove changes which make no sense anymore (the whole picture of the game has changed so much in that mod) and we are going to put the upcoming changes into a standalone mod for separate testing, the smaller mod will then be intended to get fully integrated into vanilla ns2.
The question with the glancing blows is this. Has the 33/66% damage cone been removed or just changed to 100% damage?
Removed. As I said above the only cylinder remaining is the 100% damage cylinder and its size is approximately the same as the 100% cylinder in live.
I hope UWE removes the 33% damage cylinders and changes the 66% damage cylinders to 100% so as to make bites harder to connect but do more damage per bite.
Not a fan of the removal of glancing bites with nothing else to compensate. To repeat my original argument, to the ordinary player the bite is a spam attack. They hold down the button and pray for a hit. This has never changed at any point in NS's life. Even Hugh still does it to this day. To these players, the 75 bite cone is frustratingly small. They miss constantly and they don't know why. It's baffling to me that the balance mod would make the rifle hit detection more generous and then remove all forgiveness from the bite hit detection. I don't see any positives to removing glancing bites.
Could just make the 75dmg bite the current vanilla 75+50 cone, cut the 25 one (or part of it), I'm sure it'd be manageable.
Skulk shouldn't be primarily about aiming bites up close, at least not as a primary skill mechanic. The primary skill based mechanic for skulks should be movement, i.e closing the gap with marines to create an advantage, not aim. Just like a marine's primary skill based mechanic should be aim, being able to kill a skulk before he gets close. With a frustrating bite mechanic, skulks not only need skill to close the distance, they also need to be able to aim precisely on top of that. Where as marines with good aim tend to have an advantage even in close quarters currently.
Which is not to say skulks shouldn't need to aim at all, but the current glancing bite mechanic is incredibly untransparant and noob unfriendly and I'll take a slightly (note the slightly) smaller bite cone over glancing bites any day.
Removed. As I said above the only cylinder remaining is the 100% damage cylinder and its size is approximately the same as the 100% cylinder in live.
Thank You, I just wanted to confirm. As Xarius has said though, I do not understand why Slulks have gotten such a nerf. They are already having issues with combat in this mod and making it harder to hit things is quite a punishment when it is already hard to get close to the god damn Marines.
Not a fan of the removal of glancing bites with nothing else to compensate. To repeat my original argument, to the ordinary player the bite is a spam attack. They hold down the button and pray for a hit. This has never changed at any point in NS's life. Even Hugh still does it to this day. To these players, the 75 bite cone is frustratingly small. They miss constantly and they don't know why. It's baffling to me that the balance mod would make the rifle hit detection more generous and then remove all forgiveness from the bite hit detection. I don't see any positives to removing glancing bites.
Could just make the 75dmg bite the current vanilla 75+50 cone, cut the 25 one (or part of it), I'm sure it'd be manageable.
Skulk shouldn't be primarily about aiming bites up close, at least not as a primary skill mechanic. The primary skill based mechanic for skulks should be movement, i.e closing the gap with marines to create an advantage, not aim. Just like a marine's primary skill based mechanic should be aim, being able to kill a skulk before he gets close. With a frustrating bite mechanic, skulks not only need skill to close the distance, they also need to be able to aim precisely on top of that. Where as marines with good aim tend to have an advantage even in close quarters currently.
Which is not to say skulks shouldn't need to aim at all, but the current glancing bite mechanic is incredibly untransparant and noob unfriendly and I'll take a slightly (note the slightly) smaller bite cone over glancing bites any day.
Yeah I wouldn't be opposed to simply having a larger normal hitbox. Glancing bites are not well communicated at all right now, players shouldn't be expected to read the numbers.
it wont be all included. i will soon remove changes which make no sense anymore (the whole picture of the game has changed so much in that mod) and we are going to put the upcoming changes into a standalone mod for separate testing, the smaller mod will then be intended to get fully integrated into vanilla ns2.
@Industry Thanks for digging that up. I was sure it's the case but I'm WAY to lazy to look for proof
How many servers are running this balance mod? I almost want to try it out.
Very little. I just was on a full BT server, sewlek himself was there as well ^_^
Sewlek can afford to start up the server because he can enable hax that make the game also fun while only having 2-3 players on the server and allow you to actually test things out already (he can even start the game with only 1 player in the match). Trying to start a server without him is a very boring and ungrateful task.
You probably don't know how to use the current shadowstep, then. Because it is none of those things.
Fun fact, double jump was removed from the fade because we had to include bhop as much as possible. Everyone knows that bhop is the only skill-based movement system that requires "skill." The rest of them, like shadowstep momentum and wall jump are "stupidly easy" and "require no thought or skill."
But guise, bhop is different.
i think it's more importantly trying to be a fun movement system which is fluid even in cluttery, narrow and winding rooms/corridors.
rather than a clunky shadowstep where you miss the door by 1 inch and stick to the wall like a wet noodle.
NS2balance blink doesn't accomplish that, nor will it ever. You get stuck even more in the balance mod because you're relying on bhop and the faster you go, the longer the turns you have to take. P.S. You lose all momentum immediately if you touch anything.
using leap/wall-jump or blink you can do a 180 and still have excellent speed/momentum going for you.
unlike the 'skill' fade we have in live, where turning your shadowstep-jump in the air feels like you're piloting a hindenburg.
Comments
What does that mean exactly?
Just played with it and I believe it is the damage cones. Only the max damage cone remains.
Hmmphh. Is the main cone the same size as the previous max damage cone, or bigger? I worry that skulks will get bummed even harder now than they already did with any marine who could move + aim, will just have to see how it plays out.
edit: Scanned through the LUA for the bite cones. Looks all the same to me and all he changed was kUseGradualMeleeAttacks to false.
As for EXOS, it's a tricky one. What made the old Heavy Armour good was that marines could still use different weapons, build, weld and were a little more flexible overall. Since the exo has a fixed weapon, the only thing you can mess with is damage output, armour and manoeuvrability. Making them tankier will make them more frustrating to counter, making them deal significantly less damage will make them less enjoyable to play and making them significantly faster will break the whole 'heavy mech' design of it all.
edit: I guess I should be more CORRECT and say bite cylinders. Geometry.
without even thinking about the changes proposed in this mod and their relative merits or lack thereof, its a concern to hear that the development team is considering a wholesale redesign of the game 6 months after launch.
So... so... so, glancing bites are gone?!?!
brb going to play balance mod.
So skulk bites and other bites will always provide static damage?
Uh, I wouldn't call this a redesign; just changing tons of values, changing how matches progress, and making things feel nicer
The goal is the same, gain control of the map, eliminate the enemy main base; it's not like it turned into capture the flag or something
Yes, skulk, lerk and fade no longer have glancing hits from what I've tried.
All will die.
I kind of disagree. One of the things that kept me playing NS1 for so long was that every once in a while they made a moderate shift to the mechanics that freshened it up and invalidated old strategies. I'd actually be concerned if they weren't adjusting core mechanics twice yearly. I see where you're coming from though, big changes leave room for things to go horribly wrong.
this mod goes way beyond making adjustments though - they are changing how almost everything works. im not even debating whether things will be better or worse.
in my experience, balance mods (however good) tend to be bad news for the scenes. at best, the scene split's, at worst, the balance mod will be forced through, and players will quit in droves. make this mod for fun, try and influence basens2 design if you can, but UWE talking of making this basens2 retroactively is just madness. i hope its just flayra's internal politics.
I'm pretty sure they are cherry picking features and changes and not using the whole overhaul in one go. I could be very wrong on that though, I don't follow this thread that closely and certainly don't have the inside track at UWE. I still wouldn't mind but that's just me, again I love it when NS undergoes huge changes.
rather than completely changing the bite hit detection system, a more suitable solution to this problem would be to implement a more prominent cue for when you have made a kill. i also think it should be easier to distinguish between an assist and a kill.
Removed. As I said above the only cylinder remaining is the 100% damage cylinder and its size is approximately the same as the 100% cylinder in live.
Putting all of this in at once would be waaaaaaaaay too much even though I like most of whats in here over live.
Post from earlier in the thread from sewlek:
I hope UWE removes the 33% damage cylinders and changes the 66% damage cylinders to 100% so as to make bites harder to connect but do more damage per bite.
Could just make the 75dmg bite the current vanilla 75+50 cone, cut the 25 one (or part of it), I'm sure it'd be manageable.
Skulk shouldn't be primarily about aiming bites up close, at least not as a primary skill mechanic. The primary skill based mechanic for skulks should be movement, i.e closing the gap with marines to create an advantage, not aim. Just like a marine's primary skill based mechanic should be aim, being able to kill a skulk before he gets close. With a frustrating bite mechanic, skulks not only need skill to close the distance, they also need to be able to aim precisely on top of that. Where as marines with good aim tend to have an advantage even in close quarters currently.
Which is not to say skulks shouldn't need to aim at all, but the current glancing bite mechanic is incredibly untransparant and noob unfriendly and I'll take a slightly (note the slightly) smaller bite cone over glancing bites any day.
Thank You, I just wanted to confirm. As Xarius has said though, I do not understand why Slulks have gotten such a nerf. They are already having issues with combat in this mod and making it harder to hit things is quite a punishment when it is already hard to get close to the god damn Marines.
Yeah I wouldn't be opposed to simply having a larger normal hitbox. Glancing bites are not well communicated at all right now, players shouldn't be expected to read the numbers.
Very little. I just was on a full BT server, sewlek himself was there as well ^_^
@Industry Thanks for digging that up. I was sure it's the case but I'm WAY to lazy to look for proof
Sewlek can afford to start up the server because he can enable hax that make the game also fun while only having 2-3 players on the server and allow you to actually test things out already (he can even start the game with only 1 player in the match). Trying to start a server without him is a very boring and ungrateful task.
Removal of glancing bites
using leap/wall-jump or blink you can do a 180 and still have excellent speed/momentum going for you.
unlike the 'skill' fade we have in live, where turning your shadowstep-jump in the air feels like you're piloting a hindenburg.