Wow fades are fast.. a halfway decent fade is *really* hard to kill right now just due to pure speed! The average skilled human is not going to be able to track that fast
While it may be easier to survive by being faster, and feel fun for that individual, it makes it far more difficult for less skilled players on the other team to track the target.
Think I played with you last night on tram, Ironhorse. I agree that adren blinking fades are very hard to track and kill unless you have a shotty or flamethrower. Fades are not going to engage for long if you have these weapons and only an ambushing, minimap-hunting marine is likely to finish off a skilled fade. The "blink up and swoop down" tactic is still an effective, skillful maneuver that lets a fade assess marine counts while throwing off aim greatly for those being targeted. Even with shadowstep's new vertical directions, it feels redundant since blink does everything you need to do. You gain better speed boosts in mid-air at similar energy costs with blink as well.
Oh noes 1 degree! My aiming skills have been totally sabotaged! You have a pistol for a reason, or have all you vets already forgotten ns1? Or perhaps you would like the pistol to be worthless in 95% of situations when you still have bullets in your lmg? That does not strike me as very good design.
I think gorge cost needs to be increased. After some thought, I decide that a good value would be 8 res to evolve, with 1 res per upgrade. This leaves the total 3 upgrade cost unchanged, but decreases the number of suicide bile bomb hits players can do over the course of a game.
Regen's in-combat effectiveness should be reduced by a few percentage, not completely eliminated. It feels too powerful to be regening large amounts of health while being shot.
The onos needs a little more mobility. I think it's health is at a good point, but it feels a little too slow and its hard to keep up with marines that are jumping away from you. I think this can be solved by increasing its strafe accel a little bit. Also, sometimes the onos seems to slide around on iceskates. Not sure what the cause of this is.
This is unrelated to the previous posts, but I'd like to say that the skulks movement when not jumping - while pressing both w+a or w+d (strafe + forward) - really seems wrong. I seems like you're going way more forward then on the side (diagonal movements are messed up). It doesn't feel right IMO.
Exactly. While trying to pinpoint what makes the BT Mod Skulk and Fade feel so awkward in comparison to vanilla, I noticed three things:
- Strafing with W+A or W+D has *way* too little sideways movement, compared to forward speed.
- Jumping while strafing diagonally makes the jump go straight ahead; all lateral movement is cancelled immediately.
- Strafing while jumping forward has very little effect. However, this is not due to a lack of air control... you can make rather sharp turns in-air by curving with your mouse.
These three things create a really weird asymmetry between the axes of movement. In vanilla, you simply move into the direction of your key presses (as in virtually every other 3d game). In the BT Mod, however, your movement is heavily biased towards the forward axis. That's what I described as feeling like "traveling on tracks" in another post.
Why was strafe movement so heavily constrained in the BT Mod? Was this necessary to make the "bhop" maneuver work? If so, this is a horrible trade-off - it feels really, really wrong. This simple thing makes the BT Mod a lot less enjoyable to me.
If there is any chance to change (or at least tweak) this before release, I'd really appreciate it.
Not sure if this has been changed in the last few hours but, it's been a few pages since I posted this and I don't believe it's been tested, going to keep posting it until it at LEAST gets tested.
There is NO POINT in getting A3, the only way it can assist you is if you take a gorge spit hit or some lerk spikes, then it'd be one less bite/swipe to die, it's not worth it. This means that marines can effectively hit full upgrades by 8 minutes maybe sooner and have a proto by the time they'd normally have 3/3. Basically this destroys the mid game (which really doesn't exist) because by the time fades are out, so is A2, which is the most "defense" marines will get against fades, fades never fight early/mid game marines, they fight late game marines, that's messed up. Simply buffing the damage to 80 making it 3 swipes to kill an A2 marine will make all the difference to how fast marines can tech and how useful fades in combat.
There is NO POINT in getting A3, the only way it can assist you is if you take a gorge spit hit or some lerk spikes, then it'd be one less bite/swipe to die, it's not worth it. This means that marines can effectively hit full upgrades by 8 minutes maybe sooner and have a proto by the time they'd normally have 3/3. Basically this destroys the mid game (which really doesn't exist) because by the time fades are out, so is A2, which is the most "defense" marines will get against fades, fades never fight early/mid game marines, they fight late game marines, that's messed up. Simply buffing the damage to 80 making it 3 swipes to kill an A2 marine will make all the difference to how fast marines can tech and how useful fades in combat.
I wouldn't say that this necessarily means that fades need to have their damage increased (I'm entirely unconvinced that fades need to be stronger than they currently are in the midgame) but it is fairly bad from a design perspective that A3 doesn't give a direct benefit in a 1v1 skulk, fade or onos fight, if only because it makes for a more obvious tech path for marines where the benefit of getting to A2 is huge compared to A3 which is ostensibly a later game tech and should at least be equally useful in practice.
Perhaps the fade damage isn't the thing that needs to be changed to compensate (but 4 swipes to kill A2 is retarded because staying around that long will end in your death). However something needs to be done to make A3 worth getting and not a waste of 40 res, and it can't be a skulk damage buff or you break the early game. An onos damage buff would be kind of pointless I feel. That's why I think fade.
The talk about the higher spread have taken some interest reasoning behind it. Lets just start with the vanilla spread and clear out that any balance issue that ns2 had in vanilla wasn't because of the lmg spread, and now some people make it look like its the way to even out the balance in BT, low spread= marine wins, and high spread= balanced game.
In vanilla the biggest skulk problem imo was skulks lack of ground acceleration therefor skulks could more easily be dodged by marines in close combat. Skulks in BT have improved movement mechanic and also the bitecone that skulks have is huge(Too huge imo, and the reason for this was that tighter cone would frustrate skulk players more because they wont land hits so often...). So better movement mechanic combined with a large 75damage bitecone makes skulks even better than in vanilla. And when we add that marines have pathetic dodge mechanics in close combat this results in a huge skulk boost in BT.
The first argument people say about the higher lmg spread ''Skulks and cysts wont get sniped''. Well the game should be balanced more towards marines having the upperhand in high to midrange, especially now when skulks are far better tools to get to close combat and winning engagements close to marines. The game should lean towards awarding marines in the mid to high range aiming/killing, and skulks in ambush and close combat. If cyst sniping is an issue just make the cysts take less damage with lmg, there are otherways than changing the spread for that reason.
Second argument has been that ''The spread difference is so small it wont even matter''. Well we started vanilla with the bugged 1degree spread(not having an impact in balance), so if there really is no difference and people want it lower then lowering it would be the logic solution. Its obvious that the spread adds a random element to the lmg, when tested(about 20m range) the vanilla had a bullet miss around 5 when bt had 12-16missed bullets, this is when the crosshair is targeted straight to skulks head and not moving.
Some say that if you target straight at the skulk model you still hit enough, well in real game situations you dont have the opportunity to always see the whole skulk model and shoot in the center of the skulk, you know we have corners in this game too.
The gameplay and tempo have changed so that skulks can more easily regroup and rush towards marine(s)(believe or not there is not always one on one situations in corridors) with large numbers and the higher spread makes its just more easier for skulks to start rushing from a distance when marines have a random hit element gun. One problem is also that the spread is random everytime, you cant use burst fire where the first bullets would hit center and then spread out now its just random all the time.
One argument have been that ''pro aimers kill skulks to easily'', well if this is a problem in pubs maybe UWE should focus in making the matchmaking/ladder system in the game, just to take the higher skill floor away so that people get more hits with huge lmg spread, or aliens not getting killed to much is just sad balance tweaking overall.
The last arguments have been that its like in NS1, well there are alot of changed elements compared to ns1, thats just a lazy reason to try to justify the changes in BT.
(Next patch will have a random medpack spread drop that has a random 3-10cm range, because its the only way to eliminate commander sniping marines with medpacks)
I don't know what exactly is causing it, but Gorges seem able to get hit and damaged by their own Spit. Seems to be related to turning quickly while shooting the projectile.
A more interesting change would be improving the marine movement mechanics so the marines can actually dodge bites without relying on the commander for meds every time. But I agree that the bite cone is kinda big.
I've found that since the medpack pickup delay medspam will very rarely save marines from good skulks anymore. You get 1-2 meds in depending on how much armor they had, any more than that are almost certainly pointless as the marine can't pick it up. Also a marine on 100/0 is almost pointless to med as the 50 hp they get brings them back to 75 where they die instantly as there is no chance of a second med happening in time.
A more interesting change would be improving the marine movement mechanics so the marines can actually dodge bites without relying on the commander for meds every time
You mean, apart from the quick strafing/strafe jumps any good marine can do with ease around skulks? They have more than enough maneuverability as it is.
Still unrelated to the previous messages, but I feel like 1CC marine is way too powerful with jetpacks. I also feel that because of those jetpacks, ending a game is wayyyyy harder for aliens. Lerk gas, onos, skulks are easily dodgeable/chasable with those... Turtling in public games happens and the game turns around because of jetpacks. 1 base marine totally crushes 1 base alien (I know it is asymetric, but I feel something should be done regarding jetpacks).
Another thing I see is the game turning around too easily once advanced armory is finished being researched. We saw by the BT that Flamethrower / Grenade launchers are now effective and can be used (which seem was the point of those free researches). Now just put a 5 or more res tech that requires 1+ minutes to unlock one of those two. I believe that will decrease tremendously the sudden GL/FT push that happens in some public games that ends the game. Having both weapons directly unlocked with an adv. armory doesn't give alien players enough time to adapt, thus sometimes ending the game quickly (+whip not throwing back grenades...); in case I feel it shouldn't happen that quickly.
The bile bomb rushes are getting really boring. I've been seeing teams dedicate a person to just suicide bile rush all game.. i think maybe bile bomb should require a 2nd hive again.
Whenever I join BT server, I get this weird bug, which is like built in wallhack: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46228326/ns/2013-06-23_00001.jpg
So, all icons are messed up, instead of rotating circle during upgrades I get like 4 different icons rotating (I clearly recognize harvester icon amongst them). And all the players and buildings have this strange square on them, which shows even through walls. I've been sitting in this that spot on screenshot in locker tracking skulks around me.
I tried checking game files in steam, it said everything is ok. And everything is OK in vanilla.
Not sure if this has been changed in the last few hours but, it's been a few pages since I posted this and I don't believe it's been tested, going to keep posting it until it at LEAST gets tested.
There is NO POINT in getting A3, the only way it can assist you is if you take a gorge spit hit or some lerk spikes, then it'd be one less bite/swipe to die, it's not worth it. This means that marines can effectively hit full upgrades by 8 minutes maybe sooner and have a proto by the time they'd normally have 3/3. Basically this destroys the mid game (which really doesn't exist) because by the time fades are out, so is A2, which is the most "defense" marines will get against fades, fades never fight early/mid game marines, they fight late game marines, that's messed up. Simply buffing the damage to 80 making it 3 swipes to kill an A2 marine will make all the difference to how fast marines can tech and how useful fades in combat.
You're wrong. There is a point to A3 and it's to do with medpacks. Don't make fade 80 damage...
lol
The only thing A3 protects you against is gorge bile/spit and lerk spikes... all other lifeforms will 4 bite/swipe you. Its a redundant upgrade.
I get why sewlek changed the numbers but I still think the game should be put back to vanilla where A0 = 2 swipes, A1 = 3 swipes, A2 = 3 swipes, A3 = 4 swipes. At least then A3 feels useful. For those complaining about getting 2 swiped with armor 0... if you let fades come up before you get armor 1, you lost anyway.
Comments
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128755/sewlek-s-balance-mod/p1
I think gorge cost needs to be increased. After some thought, I decide that a good value would be 8 res to evolve, with 1 res per upgrade. This leaves the total 3 upgrade cost unchanged, but decreases the number of suicide bile bomb hits players can do over the course of a game.
Regen's in-combat effectiveness should be reduced by a few percentage, not completely eliminated. It feels too powerful to be regening large amounts of health while being shot.
The onos needs a little more mobility. I think it's health is at a good point, but it feels a little too slow and its hard to keep up with marines that are jumping away from you. I think this can be solved by increasing its strafe accel a little bit. Also, sometimes the onos seems to slide around on iceskates. Not sure what the cause of this is.
durrr
I don't care that you can see a skulk moving, in NS1 tracking was far easier because the geometry and textures were so basic in comparison.
- Strafing with W+A or W+D has *way* too little sideways movement, compared to forward speed.
- Jumping while strafing diagonally makes the jump go straight ahead; all lateral movement is cancelled immediately.
- Strafing while jumping forward has very little effect. However, this is not due to a lack of air control... you can make rather sharp turns in-air by curving with your mouse.
These three things create a really weird asymmetry between the axes of movement. In vanilla, you simply move into the direction of your key presses (as in virtually every other 3d game). In the BT Mod, however, your movement is heavily biased towards the forward axis. That's what I described as feeling like "traveling on tracks" in another post.
Why was strafe movement so heavily constrained in the BT Mod? Was this necessary to make the "bhop" maneuver work? If so, this is a horrible trade-off - it feels really, really wrong. This simple thing makes the BT Mod a lot less enjoyable to me.
If there is any chance to change (or at least tweak) this before release, I'd really appreciate it.
I wouldn't say that this necessarily means that fades need to have their damage increased (I'm entirely unconvinced that fades need to be stronger than they currently are in the midgame) but it is fairly bad from a design perspective that A3 doesn't give a direct benefit in a 1v1 skulk, fade or onos fight, if only because it makes for a more obvious tech path for marines where the benefit of getting to A2 is huge compared to A3 which is ostensibly a later game tech and should at least be equally useful in practice.
In vanilla the biggest skulk problem imo was skulks lack of ground acceleration therefor skulks could more easily be dodged by marines in close combat. Skulks in BT have improved movement mechanic and also the bitecone that skulks have is huge(Too huge imo, and the reason for this was that tighter cone would frustrate skulk players more because they wont land hits so often...). So better movement mechanic combined with a large 75damage bitecone makes skulks even better than in vanilla. And when we add that marines have pathetic dodge mechanics in close combat this results in a huge skulk boost in BT.
The first argument people say about the higher lmg spread ''Skulks and cysts wont get sniped''. Well the game should be balanced more towards marines having the upperhand in high to midrange, especially now when skulks are far better tools to get to close combat and winning engagements close to marines. The game should lean towards awarding marines in the mid to high range aiming/killing, and skulks in ambush and close combat. If cyst sniping is an issue just make the cysts take less damage with lmg, there are otherways than changing the spread for that reason.
Second argument has been that ''The spread difference is so small it wont even matter''. Well we started vanilla with the bugged 1degree spread(not having an impact in balance), so if there really is no difference and people want it lower then lowering it would be the logic solution. Its obvious that the spread adds a random element to the lmg, when tested(about 20m range) the vanilla had a bullet miss around 5 when bt had 12-16missed bullets, this is when the crosshair is targeted straight to skulks head and not moving.
Some say that if you target straight at the skulk model you still hit enough, well in real game situations you dont have the opportunity to always see the whole skulk model and shoot in the center of the skulk, you know we have corners in this game too.
The gameplay and tempo have changed so that skulks can more easily regroup and rush towards marine(s)(believe or not there is not always one on one situations in corridors) with large numbers and the higher spread makes its just more easier for skulks to start rushing from a distance when marines have a random hit element gun. One problem is also that the spread is random everytime, you cant use burst fire where the first bullets would hit center and then spread out now its just random all the time.
One argument have been that ''pro aimers kill skulks to easily'', well if this is a problem in pubs maybe UWE should focus in making the matchmaking/ladder system in the game, just to take the higher skill floor away so that people get more hits with huge lmg spread, or aliens not getting killed to much is just sad balance tweaking overall.
The last arguments have been that its like in NS1, well there are alot of changed elements compared to ns1, thats just a lazy reason to try to justify the changes in BT.
(Next patch will have a random medpack spread drop that has a random 3-10cm range, because its the only way to eliminate commander sniping marines with medpacks)
You mean, apart from the quick strafing/strafe jumps any good marine can do with ease around skulks? They have more than enough maneuverability as it is.
Another thing I see is the game turning around too easily once advanced armory is finished being researched. We saw by the BT that Flamethrower / Grenade launchers are now effective and can be used (which seem was the point of those free researches). Now just put a 5 or more res tech that requires 1+ minutes to unlock one of those two. I believe that will decrease tremendously the sudden GL/FT push that happens in some public games that ends the game. Having both weapons directly unlocked with an adv. armory doesn't give alien players enough time to adapt, thus sometimes ending the game quickly (+whip not throwing back grenades...); in case I feel it shouldn't happen that quickly.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46228326/ns/2013-06-23_00001.jpg
So, all icons are messed up, instead of rotating circle during upgrades I get like 4 different icons rotating (I clearly recognize harvester icon amongst them). And all the players and buildings have this strange square on them, which shows even through walls. I've been sitting in this that spot on screenshot in locker tracking skulks around me.
I tried checking game files in steam, it said everything is ok. And everything is OK in vanilla.
You're wrong. There is a point to A3 and it's to do with medpacks. Don't make fade 80 damage...
Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that. Armor 3 just allows you to spend less ress over the course of a time on medpacks.
So you are wrong when you say there is no point to A3
The only thing A3 protects you against is gorge bile/spit and lerk spikes... all other lifeforms will 4 bite/swipe you. Its a redundant upgrade.
I get why sewlek changed the numbers but I still think the game should be put back to vanilla where A0 = 2 swipes, A1 = 3 swipes, A2 = 3 swipes, A3 = 4 swipes. At least then A3 feels useful. For those complaining about getting 2 swiped with armor 0... if you let fades come up before you get armor 1, you lost anyway.