As a new player... (My feedback)
Lavenders2
Join Date: 2013-03-25 Member: 184394Members
Join Date: 2013-03-25 Member: 184394Members
The goal of this post is to show the community and maybe the devs how I personally felt about playing the first 5 hours of this game during the free weekend, and to hopefully understand how to improve the game. I think it is much clearer to see what is wrong with the learning experience of a game from someone who has just went through the experience.
My first impression was overwhelming. When I first loaded up the game, I saw an option to explore on my own server, but didn't really want to do that. So I just decided that after watching a few videos to get the idea of the game, I would jump right in. If there was some incentive to actually go through these tutorials, maybe I would...
Fortunately, I saw very clearly in green some "Rookie Friendly" servers that I thought was a really smart idea. Unfortunately, I saw no way to filter so only Rookie servers showed up, but did see a way to filter the rookie servers away.
When I first got into the game I think I played aliens to start off. I mostly had not a CLUE what I was doing. Probably because I didn't watch enough videos/the tutorial stuff, but nothing really made sense in the long run. I wasn't sure how evolving worked, why my skulk couldn't leap like I had seen in videos and how some of the finer mechanics of the game worked. This was to be expected, but the game never really seemed to show you how things worked. There are tooltips in explore mode, why not bring those into the actual game? (You can turn them off of course) This way, players who want to jump in and play with others don't get blown out of the water by the pacing of the game. The biggest and greatest thing in this game, and probably where I got most of my information from, was the videos that play on death. These were really informative and actually helped me understand about 3/4 of the game. You got hands on experience from playing the game, and the more often you died, the more often you got information. This meant you learnt more if you weren't as good, which is a really clever way of teaching players.
After this first game of having no idea what was really happening, I joined marines for a change of pace. The marines method of evolving and growing seemed far more realistic and as such, was much easier to understand how everything worked. For example, when shotguns were researched, it told me to go buy them at the armory. When I got there, it said to press E, and then I was told exactly how many resources I needed to buy it. Simple, easy and intuitive!
In this game, I started to understand how the game worked. You start by building extractors/scouting, then try and hold resources and get ahead of your opponent, eventually winning the game. Building things also made more sense since when you were next to something, the game told you to go and build it, and all you had to do was press the button it told you to press. It also showed me that marines rely on power for buildings to work, and when the power is destroyed, the lights turn off. At this point I noticed that the game only truly made sense when you played both races, to understand how they interact. Only playing one race never made much sense, then you play the other race and you understand what makes them weak and how they are strong. I think players should be encouraged to play both races somehow.
My next game was arguably the most fun one. In this game, our commander had a mic and was telling each of us what to do and our overall strategy. The reason this one was most fun was because for the first time I felt like I knew what we were trying to do in order to win. I think that the commander ultimately can make your learning experience much faster, in the same way a driving instructor helps you learn driving faster. I think in Rookie Friendly servers, commanders should be very experienced and have a mic. The game was not only easier to understand after this, but a heck of a lot more fun to play because you felt like you were part of a team trying to accomplish something.
My biggest criticism of the game was my next match, where our commander was absolutely garbage and was kicked out because of it (When I say garbage I mean he basically didn't do anything he was asked to do and just ignored everybody). Your fun with this game seemed to verge on the commander and his abilities. If your commander was awesome, you had fun. If your commander sucked, you didn't have fun. The worst part is that the only way to become good is to actually command. In this game, I was given the chance to do just that.
I found commanding to be incredibly awkward and not intuitive at all. Upgrades were hidden in buildings, placing things on the map didn't always work and you had to spam click just so something would place (which actually tricked me into thinking you needed infestation on a part of the map before you could build a cyst. I later learned in a video that you could place it anywhere, and upon trying it realized it was true.) and giving orders was painful and hard. Here you can see a vicious cycle forming. You try to understand commanding, but it is hard because the interface isn't very good, so you suck at commanding. Therefore, everyone in the entire game suffers because of it. If the interface was cleaner, made sense and wasn't so hard to use, I think people would not only pick up commanding much better, but the overall experience would be much better.
Alien commander was next, and it wasn't nearly as hard to understand (except for the part where you place cysts down anywhere, not just on infestation...). The overall style of the aliens seemed simpler in nature, mostly because you build things at your leisure and don't require a team to build things. This made your job simpler, and fit with the aliens theme really well.
After that, most games were much more fun because I knew how to play on the ground, I knew what the commander expected since I had played as one and I knew how both sides worked so I could help my team in a meaningful way.
My biggest feedback I could give is to make things like commanding more intuitive. Tutorial isn't necessary, but make sure the player can try and find out how something works much easier. Things like a map legend next to the map so you know what each of the symbols mean, tooltips that popup in command mode saying you need harvesters to get resources to get more things and to explain messages like "Out of range" better. Some parts of the game are hard to understand simply because the game doesn't give you that information. The stuff it does explain is explained quite well.
One other piece of feedback I have is that the experience in some cases is ultimately dictated by the skill of the commander, and as such I think each rookie server needs a few vets that have mics and who are willing to teach the game to new players, and perhaps reward those vets in some way for doing this to give them incentive. The game is ten times more fun when you know what is happening, and in a lot of ways it is similar to the experience you get when you first play a MOBA game like DOTA. A good commander can turn an average team into a good team, while a bad commander can completely screw up the pace of the game. I think it is still a good thing that rookies can play as a commander every once in a while to get the idea of how it works, so I'm not sure how you can balance the fun factor verse the experience factor.
Finally, there should be some kind of interactive tutorial. I know this may not be possible, but anything is better than nothing. Hands on experience is the best way to learn, but unfortunately the tutorials are just videos. Sure you may know how a rifle works, how to fire it and how to reload it, but it never truly makes sense until you actually do it yourself. Maybe turn explore mode into some kind of tutorial with AI, and just have those tooltips come up. You can play a full game of NS2 with bots, learn the game in either commander mode or ground mode, and see what things do and take as long as you want to learn something since you don't have the pressure of real players to worry about! Maybe a co-op verse AI mode would be a good idea.
I hope vets and devs find this post helpful! Any feedback and ideas would be good too.
My first impression was overwhelming. When I first loaded up the game, I saw an option to explore on my own server, but didn't really want to do that. So I just decided that after watching a few videos to get the idea of the game, I would jump right in. If there was some incentive to actually go through these tutorials, maybe I would...
Fortunately, I saw very clearly in green some "Rookie Friendly" servers that I thought was a really smart idea. Unfortunately, I saw no way to filter so only Rookie servers showed up, but did see a way to filter the rookie servers away.
When I first got into the game I think I played aliens to start off. I mostly had not a CLUE what I was doing. Probably because I didn't watch enough videos/the tutorial stuff, but nothing really made sense in the long run. I wasn't sure how evolving worked, why my skulk couldn't leap like I had seen in videos and how some of the finer mechanics of the game worked. This was to be expected, but the game never really seemed to show you how things worked. There are tooltips in explore mode, why not bring those into the actual game? (You can turn them off of course) This way, players who want to jump in and play with others don't get blown out of the water by the pacing of the game. The biggest and greatest thing in this game, and probably where I got most of my information from, was the videos that play on death. These were really informative and actually helped me understand about 3/4 of the game. You got hands on experience from playing the game, and the more often you died, the more often you got information. This meant you learnt more if you weren't as good, which is a really clever way of teaching players.
After this first game of having no idea what was really happening, I joined marines for a change of pace. The marines method of evolving and growing seemed far more realistic and as such, was much easier to understand how everything worked. For example, when shotguns were researched, it told me to go buy them at the armory. When I got there, it said to press E, and then I was told exactly how many resources I needed to buy it. Simple, easy and intuitive!
In this game, I started to understand how the game worked. You start by building extractors/scouting, then try and hold resources and get ahead of your opponent, eventually winning the game. Building things also made more sense since when you were next to something, the game told you to go and build it, and all you had to do was press the button it told you to press. It also showed me that marines rely on power for buildings to work, and when the power is destroyed, the lights turn off. At this point I noticed that the game only truly made sense when you played both races, to understand how they interact. Only playing one race never made much sense, then you play the other race and you understand what makes them weak and how they are strong. I think players should be encouraged to play both races somehow.
My next game was arguably the most fun one. In this game, our commander had a mic and was telling each of us what to do and our overall strategy. The reason this one was most fun was because for the first time I felt like I knew what we were trying to do in order to win. I think that the commander ultimately can make your learning experience much faster, in the same way a driving instructor helps you learn driving faster. I think in Rookie Friendly servers, commanders should be very experienced and have a mic. The game was not only easier to understand after this, but a heck of a lot more fun to play because you felt like you were part of a team trying to accomplish something.
My biggest criticism of the game was my next match, where our commander was absolutely garbage and was kicked out because of it (When I say garbage I mean he basically didn't do anything he was asked to do and just ignored everybody). Your fun with this game seemed to verge on the commander and his abilities. If your commander was awesome, you had fun. If your commander sucked, you didn't have fun. The worst part is that the only way to become good is to actually command. In this game, I was given the chance to do just that.
I found commanding to be incredibly awkward and not intuitive at all. Upgrades were hidden in buildings, placing things on the map didn't always work and you had to spam click just so something would place (which actually tricked me into thinking you needed infestation on a part of the map before you could build a cyst. I later learned in a video that you could place it anywhere, and upon trying it realized it was true.) and giving orders was painful and hard. Here you can see a vicious cycle forming. You try to understand commanding, but it is hard because the interface isn't very good, so you suck at commanding. Therefore, everyone in the entire game suffers because of it. If the interface was cleaner, made sense and wasn't so hard to use, I think people would not only pick up commanding much better, but the overall experience would be much better.
Alien commander was next, and it wasn't nearly as hard to understand (except for the part where you place cysts down anywhere, not just on infestation...). The overall style of the aliens seemed simpler in nature, mostly because you build things at your leisure and don't require a team to build things. This made your job simpler, and fit with the aliens theme really well.
After that, most games were much more fun because I knew how to play on the ground, I knew what the commander expected since I had played as one and I knew how both sides worked so I could help my team in a meaningful way.
My biggest feedback I could give is to make things like commanding more intuitive. Tutorial isn't necessary, but make sure the player can try and find out how something works much easier. Things like a map legend next to the map so you know what each of the symbols mean, tooltips that popup in command mode saying you need harvesters to get resources to get more things and to explain messages like "Out of range" better. Some parts of the game are hard to understand simply because the game doesn't give you that information. The stuff it does explain is explained quite well.
One other piece of feedback I have is that the experience in some cases is ultimately dictated by the skill of the commander, and as such I think each rookie server needs a few vets that have mics and who are willing to teach the game to new players, and perhaps reward those vets in some way for doing this to give them incentive. The game is ten times more fun when you know what is happening, and in a lot of ways it is similar to the experience you get when you first play a MOBA game like DOTA. A good commander can turn an average team into a good team, while a bad commander can completely screw up the pace of the game. I think it is still a good thing that rookies can play as a commander every once in a while to get the idea of how it works, so I'm not sure how you can balance the fun factor verse the experience factor.
Finally, there should be some kind of interactive tutorial. I know this may not be possible, but anything is better than nothing. Hands on experience is the best way to learn, but unfortunately the tutorials are just videos. Sure you may know how a rifle works, how to fire it and how to reload it, but it never truly makes sense until you actually do it yourself. Maybe turn explore mode into some kind of tutorial with AI, and just have those tooltips come up. You can play a full game of NS2 with bots, learn the game in either commander mode or ground mode, and see what things do and take as long as you want to learn something since you don't have the pressure of real players to worry about! Maybe a co-op verse AI mode would be a good idea.
I hope vets and devs find this post helpful! Any feedback and ideas would be good too.
Comments
But you're right, it's not too intuitive in the first place. In a way I like it that way, but I would like the option of some hand-holding singleplayer mode to ease new players in. Starting this game is very overwhelming!
The Devs are aware that this game isn't very accessible to new players and have been taking little steps to help with that (those tip videos, for example, are a recent addition). But given the small size of UWE, a solid single player experience is probably never going to happen officially (though there are community members working on it).
I'm glad you enjoyed your time with us this weekend
I'm glad you found some good games in there with communicative people. A few of us veterans have been playing all weekend with rookies, trying to teach as much as possible and get people playing together. I have to say, it's been a blast in those games where people listened, asked questions, followed orders - and we even got green comm vs green khamm games going where I and a friend were 'field commander' for each team to teach the new guys how to comm - what to place when and so on.
We all know there is a steep learning curve. It's great to see that Hugh's on death vids (which are a very new addition to the game) are useful, I'm sure this feedback will be well received by UWE!
Do you mind if I ask, have you bought NS2 now? Is it a game you can see yourself playing for a while?
For example, if you play the FPS portion long enough, you may figure out that Mines and Scans are awesome, so the next time you command you keep that in mind and support your troops accordingly.
I like the idea of a field commander in Rookie servers - where one player is basically the tutorial and the other is the commander, and is following the tutorial in an actual game scenario. When I was marine commander, I did have a field commander, and my learning process was greatly accelerated from this. It is another possible implementation!
I bought NS2 a few hours ago since my experience with the game was positive, and it is a game I could see myself playing for a while, but maybe my computer will die first cause my comp doesn't run this game very well! (Another problem with the game) There was almost no incentive to go into explore mode apart from the fact that commanding was hard to grasp, and when I did I found myself getting bored since it wasn't a true game experience. However, I did learn the most about commanding from that explore mode.
I also enjoy trial and error experiences, but I know many players will simply get turned off from the game because it is too hard to understand and isn't worth their time (one of my friends I talked to just today said he stopped playing 20 minutes in because he wasn't having fun just trying to understand the game). Singeplayer experiences, or non pressure multiplayer experiences (Co-op vs AI) are the best ways I feel that you can get experience in the game without it getting dull. Remember, its a game, not a book! Reading walls of text isn't fun.
It's not unlike a real life business - if the CEO is good, competent people are promoted, the company has good products and subsequently profits, you are commended when you do something right and the workplace is a pleasant place to be. If the CEO sucks, the company is doing poorly, people are angry and shout at each other, you are blamed for other people mistakes, your pay sucks and if you are really unlucky, one day the FBI kicks the door down and drags you in prison for things you don't even know about.
You are also right with the Explore mode - I tried to use it before commanding, and it did not prepare me at all, because you cannot know beforehand what makes sense to build and what does not. When I tried to command the first time, I had a feeling people will drag me out of the chair and shoot me before aliens even get to us - they were so angry! But after sometime, you develop a sort of filter and start to understand what information matter - and the game becomes less overwhelming.
However, I still consider the game a good tool to train for stressful situations. It's very fast, and you must decide and act very quickly - hesitation is often quite fatal. However, only challenging games can provide satisfaction after you master them, at least I believe so. Endure the painful start, and you are in for a pleasant and rewarding moments with this game!
Also, they really need to make marine timing a little more forgiving, as it stands commander reliance is absolutely brutal for marines. If they have a commander who isn't entirely up to speed in the first few minutes of the game they practically lose the game. Aliens are A LOT more forgiving in this regard. (Though they have offer accessibility problems, like skulk mechanics)
1. Never build multiples of something you only need one of.
2. Respond to every verbal request made by your team.
You don't have to say yes to every request, but as long as you respond people are unlikely to get mad. New commanders will end up saying yes to everything, which is bad, but at least it means you won't get shouted at.
Just another Monday at the office.
Your incentive should be to learn the game to avoid feeling overwhelmed??
I don't understand those who skip a button that says training.. Only to be utterly confused afterwards.
Also, There are in game tips, after you die so they do not block your screen and get you killed, and they are even in video, as well as during map loads.
Appreciate the well written feedback though, thanks!
The nature of having a RTS element in a FPS game, makes this even more important, since you cant just be a great marksman and expect to win by kills alone.
But now that the free weekend is over, youll will see alot more veterans in your games, and teamwork will again rule supreme.
In any case, add me to friends, and i will gladly show you the finer details of what NS2 has to offer. (That goes for everyone, not just the "greenies").
They're used to being able to just jump in and play.
When they do that and find themselves overwhelmed though... well, it just depends on the player whether they decide to then learn, or if it turns them off and they quit...
That's a very dumbed down view of commanding.
What buildings will you only need 1 of? under all circumstances? usually only need 1IP at the start, but you may need a 2nd... If you wait till it's really needed, it's probably too late.
We may need just 1 arms lab... but 2 potentially gets upgrades faster and is a reserve if one goes down.
When do i build 'x'? (you may need robotics factory at some point... not at the start though)
What upgrades are my team going to need?
Should I support an attack directly (medpacks/ammo) or build a forward armory?...is it needed? no? which is more cost effective?
Respond to verbal requests, yes... but you'll also need to discuss strategy, give them orders, inform them of enemy movements AND support units without being asked. You also need to respond to written requests (not just verbal) as well as filter the important information from your team for use in decision making.
...and much more
Edit: That said, as a rookie to the comm chair, you'll not be expected to do all that unassisted. Communicate and your team will tell you what they want and guide you through a basic build order
Really? I have a different experience...
P: "Commander, drop us medpacks, quick!"
C: "An apple that falls from the tree before its time is bitter. Self-reliance is the queen of all virtues."
P: "Incoming on main base!"
C: "Sun Tzu said - Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."
P: "We need more upgrades!"
C: "When your sword is taken from your hand, strike your enemy with your mind!"
Whole team: "That's it, guys, drag him out of that command post and hang him from the beams in Cargo!"
I'm not talking about advanced commanding or even successful commanding. Just adequate commanding.
No new player should expect to win his first game commanding. The best you can really hope for is to command a game without someone shouting at you, and to do that all you have to do is listen to the players and respond to them.
Anybody who still gets mad after that is probably a noob who is shouting for his flamethrower 3 minutes in.
Yes, for the most part. Need vs. redundancy is something to think about though. If you are in Mid to late game for example and have solid res flow, a backup arms lab at your second base is a worth while investment in my opinion even if it isn't "needed". Having your weapons and armor upgrades still available when Aliens cut power to your main base can be the difference between fending them off with the few who phased there when told to and them getting cleaned out and loosing the base.
But again that level of nuance isn't important for new commanders per say.
You watched a few videos before playing and than once you started to play you tryed to understand the game instead of bitching how confusing it is.
Kudos OP I wish more rookies were like u
I've heard people say man commanding is harder than SC2! I think commanding might be the simplest and easiest RTS there is. There's like 5 buildings. The hardest thing about commanding is adapting to situations while dealing with what your team wants, because often you get scrubs who want various things and you're not going to get them to do useful stuff so just give them their crap and see if they can win.
Also the commander controlled units are atrocious. Selecting and moving them is far worse then warcraft 2. I would like to be able to split my ARCS to defend them from bile bombs, but just getting them to move exactly where I want them to go is usually hard enough. Sometimes trying to select a moving drifter can be an exercise in extreme frustration.
If your willing to ask a few questions I think the rest of the game is basically easy enough to figure out on a basic level, except maybe wall jumping which is obviously not intuitive.
These are advanced commander responses that would surely guide even the most wayward of teams to victory.
About accessibility: this post shows, in my opinion, that there is only one good way to make the game more accessible.
A "single player" training mode or videos is NOT the good way (sure it may work, but it is still tacked on).
The only good way is to have the game itself, right as it is in multiplayer, be more intuitive and accessible. Improved commander interface, improved tool tips and UI explanations for commanders and players (for example: when you have 50 res, exos researched, but lost the second CC, does it tell a player why he can't buy exos?), better building names, and so on...
One thing i like about NS2 is the ready room. you don't choose teams in some abstract menu, you choose them right by playing the game itself. This kind of a game being a game and not a "cinematic experience" (think Half Life 1/2 ingame "cutscenes" vs modern game cutscene videos) or having boring menu added is what makes games real games.
This is how accessibility should be approached.
You don't read a book or watch videos or go to a training mode or whatever.
You play the game, which itself must get more accessible.
I think in this regard, NS2 should take a page from Starcraft II.
if only NS2 had a short single player campaign for aliens and marines.
Like 5 levels for each race.
Each level gradually teaches the player how to play the game.
Marine Campaign: level 1 teaches you how to shoot and fire and gives tips about how to engage skulks, gorges, lerks.
level 2 teaches you how to engage higher lifeforms like fades and onos.
level 3-4 teaches the player how to command.
level 5 is basically a conclusion, adding together all the concepts you've learned to win a game against AI aliens. You have a choice whether you want to command or be an on-field marine or do both. Marine AI allies.
Alien Campaign:
level 1 teaches you how to move and use a skulk and gorge.
level 2 teaches you how to use a lerk and fade and onos.
level 3-4 teaches you how to command.
level 5 is basically a conclusion, adding together all the concepts you've learned to win a game against AI marines. You have a choice whether you want to command or be an on-field alien or do both. Alien AI allies.