ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
People seem to fixating on "trolling", which was probably not the best term for me to use. I view aimbotting/wall hacking/speed hacking a form of trolling (especially if you stream it), but I'm mostly concerned about the aimbotting/wall hacking/speed hacking. I don't expect and wouldn't support ns2bans being used for anything but the most egregiously disruptive behavior.
People seem to fixating on "trolling", which was probably not the best term for me to use. I view aimbotting/wall hacking/speed hacking a form of trolling (especially if you stream it), but I'm mostly concerned about the aimbotting/wall hacking/speed hacking. I don't expect and wouldn't support ns2bans being used for anything but the most egregiously disruptive behavior.
+1 to this.
But to add my own thoughts IMO this whole thing needs to build community trust. Getting things off on a good foot is important. I don't see this as becoming a way to sensor play but simply a way to catch and ban hackers. That is the single reason I support it. Right now I have zero intention on voting to ban any one for reasons other then hacking at the moment. The system is too new to do any thing else.....
Yeah the idea is a Noble one, but global ban lists have way too much potential for abuse of power. I've already seen too many instances of players accusing others of hacking when they clearly weren't. Most of the time it's just a skilled vet or map knowledge, but once the comments start, it turn into a case of "Burn the witch".
Not to mention the problems of lag and player animations and how it plays out in spectate.
I've yet to encounter ANYONE in game who I believe was legitimately cheating. So it looks to me that server admins are doing a fine job on their own without costing innocents the price of a new game key.
Yeah the idea is a Noble one, but global ban lists have way too much potential for abuse of power. I've already seen too many instances of players accusing others of hacking when they clearly weren't. Most of the time it's just a skilled vet or map knowledge, but once the comments start, it turn into a case of "Burn the witch".
Not to mention the problems of lag and player animations and how it plays out in spectate.
I've yet to encounter ANYONE in game who I believe was legitimately cheating. So it looks to me that server admins are doing a fine job on their own without costing innocents the price of a new game key.
Yeah the idea is a Noble one, but global ban lists have way too much potential for abuse of power. I've already seen too many instances of players accusing others of hacking when they clearly weren't. Most of the time it's just a skilled vet or map knowledge, but once the comments start, it turn into a case of "Burn the witch".
Not to mention the problems of lag and player animations and how it plays out in spectate.
I've yet to encounter ANYONE in game who I believe was legitimately cheating. So it looks to me that server admins are doing a fine job on their own without costing innocents the price of a new game key.
I'm not sure there is even a way to comment. All I saw yesterday when I watched a few videos and voted was a steam id, a link to a video and a yes or no button. I think if the people are chosen properly you won't have a case of follow the leader. I didn't even see a way to see what the vote count was.
As for "lag" and player animations displaying in spectate that really is almost of zero importance when watching the videos. The spectate system is good enough atm for this. The stuff that gets you banned will be as obvious as obvious gets. There isn't room to speculate when you hit the "yes he's hacking" button when that could result in them not being able to play in dozens of ns2 servers (potentially).
It's good you havnt run across any yet, they tend to ruin the servers they are in. At least they do when they have aimbot. From what I've seen in videos the aimbots are very very obvious for this game. I've seen only about 6 so far personally in-game since the gorgeous update. Sure it's not a daily thing but enough of a issue given the small community imo. Question is say we only ever catch 1 hacker (which is already not the case) would you tell people who participated you wasted your time or would you say thanks and if you agree with the video yourself add him to your ban list on your server? I would hope the 2nd option
Yeah the idea is a Noble one, but global ban lists have way too much potential for abuse of power. I've already seen too many instances of players accusing others of hacking when they clearly weren't. Most of the time it's just a skilled vet or map knowledge, but once the comments start, it turn into a case of "Burn the witch".
Not to mention the problems of lag and player animations and how it plays out in spectate.
I've yet to encounter ANYONE in game who I believe was legitimately cheating. So it looks to me that server admins are doing a fine job on their own without costing innocents the price of a new game key.
While you are correct that such a system has great potential for abuse of power, that's why it's been set up as it has been set up. Every report must have a video. Every report must be voted on from 3-5 (idk what was decided) times by the admins behind it. And the reports are public so anyone can see it and watch the video if they think it's iffy. Furthermore, this system is entirely optional. I dunno how many times it's been said. If a server owner has problems with the system, they don't have to subscribe to it.
I met my first confirmed hacker/troller pair two days ago. Around 370 hours with no confirmed incidents and suddenly, here they were. I was indeed dismayed, but I switched to spectate and started the film rolling. In my report I just said they were charged with "hacking" and that the video speaks for itself.
So I think this crowd is up for the challenge of separating the players sore over a loss to a extreme veteran, and those that actually have found a cheater.
Public votes are now online - they work basically like a vote of no-confidence , if the majority of the public votes that they don't agree the video will be set up for a re-vote by the admins.
Please - take the time for yourselves and see what YOU think of the videos and submissions, and vote how YOU think.
Yeah the idea is a Noble one, but global ban lists have way too much potential for abuse of power. I've already seen too many instances of players accusing others of hacking when they clearly weren't. Most of the time it's just a skilled vet or map knowledge, but once the comments start, it turn into a case of "Burn the witch".
Not to mention the problems of lag and player animations and how it plays out in spectate.
I've yet to encounter ANYONE in game who I believe was legitimately cheating. So it looks to me that server admins are doing a fine job on their own without costing innocents the price of a new game key.
They exist and have been causing multiple problems across several servers. The intent of ns2bans is to give server admins the tools to prevent mass NS2 griefing by people who simply hop from server to server after being banned. One off incidents are easily and usually handled by individual server admins, but there have been a few who seem to make it their mission to grief as many NS2 servers as they can with hacking, cheating, DDoSing, etc.
Just been playing on a server with several people who obviously had some form of aid - if not aimbot, then modded textures and such. You can recognize it by the way they move, they excercise absolutely no caution, yet hit everyone with the very bullet, on the ceiling, in shadow among crates, in a vent - no matter, they know where you are. sv_stats did not provide Steam ID, I don't know why. The server had random on, so I could not even spectate.
Just been playing on a server with several people who obviously had some form of aid - if not aimbot, then modded textures and such. You can recognize it by the way they move, they excercise absolutely no caution, yet hit everyone with the very bullet, on the ceiling, in shadow among crates, in a vent - no matter, they know where you are. sv_stats did not provide Steam ID, I don't know why. The server had random on, so I could not even spectate.
I was playing on the same server as Kamamura a while ago, and he was accusing plainly good and even mediocre players of cheating. After he left, everybody laughed his opinions off.
This is the kind of attitude that will get good players with good intentions banned if they're given any weight.
Just been playing on a server with several people who obviously had some form of aid - if not aimbot, then modded textures and such. You can recognize it by the way they move, they excercise absolutely no caution, yet hit everyone with the very bullet, on the ceiling, in shadow among crates, in a vent - no matter, they know where you are. sv_stats did not provide Steam ID, I don't know why. The server had random on, so I could not even spectate.
I was playing on the same server as Kamamura a while ago, and he was accusing plainly good and even mediocre players of cheating. After he left, everybody laughed his opinions off.
This is the kind of attitude that will get good players with good intentions banned if they're given any weight.
Yeah he seems to be one of those people that thinks that everyone who is playing better than him must be cheating. Just saw him bitch and complain on a 156 server today.
Honestly if there is voting it should be treated as a jury system where as it must be a unanimous decision otherwise acquittal of the accusations, that is by far the safest measure to help combat abuse even if it may seem troublesome at times.
10 min ago i played 2 rounds as marine in summit on a server that i don't want comment , and i was kicked and banned because i don't died in that rounds. While the last round was near finish, i saw 7 spectators looking at me, and BAM, KICKED.
The project is fine, but must be done carefully to be successful, or innocent people will be injured.
I was playing since NS1, and was Constellation, 400 hours in NS2 but if i get some nice rounds all the "Cheats paranoia" begin.
Well, to my defence, back in the days of Counter Strike, I had a colleague who was a highly ranked Counter Strike player in Czech league, but he was a cheater none the less, I have been doing night shifts with him, and I saw him playing with wallhacks. Nevertheless, he has been fooling the pro players for quite some time. He has been eventually caught and banned from competitive play, but before that, I have read people swearing on his honesty, saying it's all "skillz".
I admit I could have been wrong, and yes, I was probably wrong today, since I was incredibly frustrated, but the fact stays that you can be as wrong as I about who cheats and who does not. The "head-in-the-sand" attitude will lead to a predictable outcome - the honest players will eventually leave.
Voting isn't even needed. Lists should be curated by specific people pulling from the big pile. Let's say a well respected person called BLERBLES has a list, and he only carefully selects those that he is 100% sure of the players cheating. Most server admins agree with him, and subscribes to his list.
Another guy, BLARBLAH, hates trolls and fills his personal list of anyone who could even remotely be a troll. Only two server admins are as stringent as he is and subscribes to BLARBLAH's list.
No more Orwellian predictions of doom with a master list.
Voting isn't even needed. Lists should be curated by specific people pulling from the big pile. Let's say a well respected person called BLERBLES has a list, and he only carefully selects those that he is 100% sure of the players cheating. Most server admins agree with him, and subscribes to his list.
Another guy, BLARBLAH, hates trolls and fills his personal list of anyone who could even remotely be a troll. Only two server admins are as stringent as he is and subscribes to BLARBLAH's list.
No more Orwellian predictions of doom with a master list.
I'm not sure exactly what you just said - but it sounded like your in favor of a random twitter ban list. Subscribe to my twiban to get all my latest bans!
Honestly if there is voting it should be treated as a jury system where as it must be a unanimous decision otherwise acquittal of the accusations, that is by far the safest measure to help combat abuse even if it may seem troublesome at times.
Getting a 100% participation 100% of the time is unrealistic - so I've worked a weighted system , the weight will be moved depending on the number of registered admins - I was thinking 80%-85% being more realistic.
- if any one received a "banned" message earlier - that was my fault - sorry - fixed
10 min ago i played 2 rounds as marine in summit on a server that i don't want comment , and i was kicked and banned because i don't died in that rounds. While the last round was near finish, i saw 7 spectators looking at me, and BAM, KICKED.
The project is fine, but must be done carefully to be successful, or innocent people will be injured.
I was playing since NS1, and was Constellation, 400 hours in NS2 but if i get some nice rounds all the "Cheats paranoia" begin.
I've also played a couple matches where I had insane amounts of kills vs 0 deaths, IIRC I was also called a hacker by some person, but no one took him seriously as there was wiser players among.
If you assigned people to individual cases at random it would solve the issue of unavailability as you just move onto the next "backup" if someone is unable to review the evidence in a given amount of time. Additionally might I add. The admin (or individual) who brings forth any hacking accusation should never actually have an actual vote on banning said individual. As the accuser you bring forth the role of prosecuter. not judge and jury. This should also help alleviate some of the potential for abuse.
If you assigned people to individual cases at random it would solve the issue of unavailability as you just move onto the next "backup" if someone is unable to review the evidence in a given amount of time. Additionally might I add. The admin (or individual) who brings forth any hacking accusation should never actually have an actual vote on banning said individual. As the accuser you bring forth the role of prosecuter. not judge and jury. This should also help alleviate some of the potential for abuse.
Agreed - I was actually in the process of blocking said admin from being allowed to "officially" vote - but allow them to vote on the public vote
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Don't even bother, that's so easy to side step.
From a different registered name to something like me saying to @flux : hey submit this guy for me.
Etc
Don't even bother, that's so easy to side step.
From a different registered name to something like me saying to @flux : hey submit this guy for me.
Etc
Comments
And if we give someone a global ban for someone else going "what a dick" on them, public NS will die.
+1 to this.
But to add my own thoughts IMO this whole thing needs to build community trust. Getting things off on a good foot is important. I don't see this as becoming a way to sensor play but simply a way to catch and ban hackers. That is the single reason I support it. Right now I have zero intention on voting to ban any one for reasons other then hacking at the moment. The system is too new to do any thing else.....
Yeah the idea is a Noble one, but global ban lists have way too much potential for abuse of power. I've already seen too many instances of players accusing others of hacking when they clearly weren't. Most of the time it's just a skilled vet or map knowledge, but once the comments start, it turn into a case of "Burn the witch".
Not to mention the problems of lag and player animations and how it plays out in spectate.
I've yet to encounter ANYONE in game who I believe was legitimately cheating. So it looks to me that server admins are doing a fine job on their own without costing innocents the price of a new game key.
I'm not sure there is even a way to comment. All I saw yesterday when I watched a few videos and voted was a steam id, a link to a video and a yes or no button. I think if the people are chosen properly you won't have a case of follow the leader. I didn't even see a way to see what the vote count was.
As for "lag" and player animations displaying in spectate that really is almost of zero importance when watching the videos. The spectate system is good enough atm for this. The stuff that gets you banned will be as obvious as obvious gets. There isn't room to speculate when you hit the "yes he's hacking" button when that could result in them not being able to play in dozens of ns2 servers (potentially).
It's good you havnt run across any yet, they tend to ruin the servers they are in. At least they do when they have aimbot. From what I've seen in videos the aimbots are very very obvious for this game. I've seen only about 6 so far personally in-game since the gorgeous update. Sure it's not a daily thing but enough of a issue given the small community imo. Question is say we only ever catch 1 hacker (which is already not the case) would you tell people who participated you wasted your time or would you say thanks and if you agree with the video yourself add him to your ban list on your server? I would hope the 2nd option
I met my first confirmed hacker/troller pair two days ago. Around 370 hours with no confirmed incidents and suddenly, here they were. I was indeed dismayed, but I switched to spectate and started the film rolling. In my report I just said they were charged with "hacking" and that the video speaks for itself.
So I think this crowd is up for the challenge of separating the players sore over a loss to a extreme veteran, and those that actually have found a cheater.
Public votes are now online - they work basically like a vote of no-confidence , if the majority of the public votes that they don't agree the video will be set up for a re-vote by the admins.
Please - take the time for yourselves and see what YOU think of the videos and submissions, and vote how YOU think.
On a more serious note, what a horrible, horrible idea this project is. At first I thought it was trolling, then I saw who the OP was.
I think its a great idea, but requires carefully thought out implementation.
I love how PunkBuster has the ability to serve streaming community banlists such as http://www.pbbans.com/
I was playing on the same server as Kamamura a while ago, and he was accusing plainly good and even mediocre players of cheating. After he left, everybody laughed his opinions off.
This is the kind of attitude that will get good players with good intentions banned if they're given any weight.
Yeah he seems to be one of those people that thinks that everyone who is playing better than him must be cheating. Just saw him bitch and complain on a 156 server today.
The project is fine, but must be done carefully to be successful, or innocent people will be injured.
I was playing since NS1, and was Constellation, 400 hours in NS2 but if i get some nice rounds all the "Cheats paranoia" begin.
I admit I could have been wrong, and yes, I was probably wrong today, since I was incredibly frustrated, but the fact stays that you can be as wrong as I about who cheats and who does not. The "head-in-the-sand" attitude will lead to a predictable outcome - the honest players will eventually leave.
Another guy, BLARBLAH, hates trolls and fills his personal list of anyone who could even remotely be a troll. Only two server admins are as stringent as he is and subscribes to BLARBLAH's list.
No more Orwellian predictions of doom with a master list.
I'm not sure exactly what you just said - but it sounded like your in favor of a random twitter ban list. Subscribe to my twiban to get all my latest bans!
Getting a 100% participation 100% of the time is unrealistic - so I've worked a weighted system , the weight will be moved depending on the number of registered admins - I was thinking 80%-85% being more realistic.
- if any one received a "banned" message earlier - that was my fault - sorry - fixed
I've also played a couple matches where I had insane amounts of kills vs 0 deaths, IIRC I was also called a hacker by some person, but no one took him seriously as there was wiser players among.
Agreed - I was actually in the process of blocking said admin from being allowed to "officially" vote - but allow them to vote on the public vote
From a different registered name to something like me saying to @flux : hey submit this guy for me.
Etc
well now, aren't you the little devious devil...
Offtopic, but here's a little something about pbbans.