I ve just taken a look at the ns2bans website, some suggestions:
- I wouldn't show what ppl voted until the person looking at the entry has made his vote. You don't want to influence ppl. (neither admins nor the public, even tho their votings are more for show than anything)
- You should add a number to see how many ppl voted on each report (this is fine to be showed before voting - show in the list and in the detailed view), so ppl get an idea what entrys need attention to be voted on. (?)
- Also it would be nice to add an icon, color highlights or something so ppl quickly know if they have already voted on a report or not. (in the overview list)
- I would add a 2nd layer on the votes.
e.g. i click vote yes, it will asked me again - are you sure? so i need to click yes a 2nd time. You want to avoid missclicks, you also dont want to allow ppl to change their votes every other day or whatever.
Not sure:
- I would consider adding a "require more or better evidence button", so in case X admins click this, the voting gets frozen/maybe even reset? until more evidence is added. Maybe videos are clear enough so far, but that might not always be the case. You could highlight the report in some way and also send a notification to the reporters.
Not sure:
- I would consider adding a "require more or better evidence button", so in case X admins click this, the voting gets frozen/maybe even reset? until more evidence is added. Maybe videos are clear enough so far, but that might not always be the case. You could highlight the report in some way and also send a notification to the reporters.
Perhaps the "require more evidence" button simply counts as a no. But it's a more specific no. It's not saying "this is not a hacker" its just saying "we're not convinced this is a hacker."
Statistics so far
There Are 11 reported NS2ID's
Of those 11 , 8 were accepted into the list and 1 were rejected
There are still 2 ID's waiting to be voted on by Admins.
We have 15 Admins, they have cast 64 Admin votes
Admins have voted 47 times In favor and 17 times Not In favor
We have 125 registered users and 107 Votes have been cast by them
Registered users have voted In Favor 74 times, and NOT In Favor 33 times
there are currently 73 Servers Subscribed to our server Mod.
Some great ideas have been passed around and work on the project is always on going
*snip*
As mentioned above, these forums are not the place for witch hunts. That also means that it isn't the place to claim innocence.
- Mouse
i would suggest that this would be the perfect place to claim innocence, as there is very little recourse for those that believe they are falsely accused, and this thread is pretty high traffic, and on topic. I would also posit that avoiding highlighting specific individuals is to protect the individual from others, which is as it should be. But people should be able to highlight themselves if they are fully aware of the potential consequences. The site in question does not have a mechanism for lodging complaints, and in the absence of that, i would say that the thread discussing the site in question, or a new one, should host those complaints.
-It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer
You need to add more report reasons. As English isn't my native language i don't know what it's commonly called, but the exploit where you go into the walls and are able to attack without being attacked as an alien is a good example. That's something that UWE consider a reason good enough for banning. Pistol script would be another one you could add.
*snip*
As mentioned above, these forums are not the place for witch hunts. That also means that it isn't the place to claim innocence.
- Mouse
i would suggest that this would be the perfect place to claim innocence, as there is very little recourse for those that believe they are falsely accused, and this thread is pretty high traffic, and on topic. I would also posit that avoiding highlighting specific individuals is to protect the individual from others, which is as it should be. But people should be able to highlight themselves if they are fully aware of the potential consequences. The site in question does not have a mechanism for lodging complaints, and in the absence of that, i would say that the thread discussing the site in question, or a new one, should host those complaints.
-It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer
This isn't the place for that - we will eventually host a place for these kinds of posts.
the exploit where you go into the walls and are able to attack without being attacked as an alien
And because of that it should be ok? There's people who live and breathe this exploit now and they should be banned as any other cheater.
Feel free to report it. No one will be getting banned from 1 report of trolling using a map exploit but if we get 50 reports from the same steam id it might consider a look.
Also on a slight change of subject I feel there should be a limited time frame that the reports are viewable by the public. We have already got videos that don't show any proof of hacking (in my opinion) and if it goes by 10 or so days without the admins voting accept the report should be hidden from the public until another report for the same steam ID is made.
And because of that it should be ok? There's people who live and breathe this exploit now and they should be banned as any other cheater.
I'm fairly certain I didn't say it was "ok" - he asked what it was called.
Ah. I'm sorry for misunderstanding. Whenever i've mentioned this exploit before people who know about it have replied "It's only a map exploit" in means of putting the blame on UWE for not fixing their maps as opposed to putting the blame on the people who abuse it, as if its any less cheating just because the cheat is "built in" to the game.
There's people who live and breathe this exploit now and they should be banned as any other cheater.
Feel free to report it. No one will be getting banned from 1 report of trolling using a map exploit but if we get 50 reports from the same steam id it might consider a look.
As sad and illogical as that may be (would i.e. you wait for 50 reports of proven murder before you accused a person of it?), *snip*
The only way to stop cheaters is to set an example by being hard on them. It's not like my video is anything short of absolute proof of the use of exploits. That, and not 49 times more, should be enough to ban permanently. Those who disagree are as much a part of the problem as the cheaters themselves.
*Removed inaccurate rumors of UWE actions -Ironhorse*
*snip* We are only voting on evidence from what we see given to us through NS2Bans.com. If you have more evidence please report it.
And not to speak for the other admins but many view this ns2bans thing as away to remove hackers and the kind of trolls who act like it's their 2nd job to troll ns2 servers meaning they do it daily and in as many servers as possible. Your video doesn't have proof of either. Again, all reports are welcome but stuff like this that isn't clear aimbot/wallhack isn't going to be insta ban from one 30 second video submission. We need more evidence, it would be harsh to give that person a game wide ban for killing 1 arms lab outside the map no?
The idea is for us to stay out of the grey area, after all if people trust the system people will be getting banned from a lot of servers.
*Removed inaccurate rumors of UWE actions -Ironhorse*
The video is solid proof of the use of the exploit, and as much of a A-hole thing it is to do, it really should be left up to the server operators for one or two instances of it happening. I think most of the admins agree that when it comes to trolling, we are looking for the worst of the worst and repeated abusers. 50 is little exaggerated to get his point across - Personally I would think 3-4 would do the trick to show a pattern of abuse. Don't take that as me saying "yeah it's ok to go ahead and exploit the map", If I still ran my own server I might ban his @$$ from it with just that video, but we are dealing with more than just our single server. We are dealing with over 70 servers (at the moment) who are relying on us to make the right calls. Things like trolling videos CAN be taken out of context (not saying that was the case here), we get maybe a 30-60 second snap shot of what happened in that game. We just want to be THAT cautious when it comes to the troll submissions. Multiple submissions really seal the deal because you can point to the list and say, hey guess what? This dude wasn't just messing around with friends on the other team, he's continually ruining games...
The thing we really have to do, as a community, is play with some type of recording at the ready, because I know I have said, well crap I wish I could have just pushed (some button) and recorded that... for every video received, how many times did it happen and not get recorded and entered into our system?
Community participation is really key - how bad do YOU want to clean up the servers from abusive and cheating players?
But why do you even have a voting function in place if an accord for a ban is based on number of the times reported as opposed to the solidity of the evidence? It doesn't make any sense to me to let people vote on something that already is absolutely proven with a video, nor to give people several additional chances to destroy a match via cheating before you ban them.
*Snip*. While it's admirable that you're trying to do something, i hope that you've also considered the fact that just because an ID has been reported ten times it doesn't necessarily mean that the people who are to vote on the evidence provided will actually remember it from before. Thus they may keep hitting the "Not in favor" vote because, as per your policy, they're all supposed to judge each entry from the number of times it has been reported before and not on the evidence of the crime itself. You're setting yourself up for a lot of extra strain with a system like that, not to mention ridicule. You may have hundreds of entries not long from now, and each and every one of them must be reported several times more? Not even a mathematician genius could keep up with all those numbers.
And, if you agree that every server owner is supposed to make their own decision on the matter, what good is number of votes or anyone's decision anyway? If some will continue to refuse banning a definite cheater, why should they listen to the decision of the owners of the ban-list?
To answer Massasster's question; i want to clean up the servers from abuse and cheating a lot more than the people behind ns2bans.com, apparently.
*Removed inaccurate rumors of UWE actions -Ironhorse*
You seem to be confusing things. You are calling trolling/griefing cheating. Using exploits like the map exploit is trolling/griefing. It would be down right illogical to ban someone from tons of servers for 1 instance of a said event. However, they only require 1 instance of hacking for a ban.
They would receive far more ridicule, as you say, if they did ban for 1 instance of trolling/griefing.
I do agree with that fact that they should have a way to track how many times a steamid has been reported so that they can easily keep track, if they don't already.
We do have a way. Cases are sorted per steam id. There is a nifty page that shows the steam id, how many times it's been reported and a link to a page that shows every report on that ID.
But why do you even have a voting function in place if an accord for a ban is based on number of the times reported as opposed to the solidity of the evidence? It doesn't make any sense to me to let people vote on something that already is absolutely proven with a video, nor to give people several additional chances to destroy a match via cheating before you ban them.
*Snip*While it's admirable that you're trying to do something, i hope that you've also considered the fact that just because an ID has been reported ten times it doesn't necessarily mean that the people who are to vote on the evidence provided will actually remember it from before. Thus they may keep hitting the "Not in favor" vote because, as per your policy, they're all supposed to judge each entry from the number of times it has been reported before and not on the evidence of the crime itself. You're setting yourself up for a lot of extra strain with a system like that, not to mention ridicule. You may have hundreds of entries not long from now, and each and every one of them must be reported several times more? Not even a mathematician genius could keep up with all those numbers.
And, if you agree that every server owner is supposed to make their own decision on the matter, what good is number of votes or anyone's decision anyway? If some will continue to refuse banning a definite cheater, why should they listen to the decision of the owners of the ban-list?
To answer Massasster's question; i want to clean up the servers from abuse and cheating a lot more than the people behind ns2bans.com, apparently. *Removed inaccurate rumors of UWE actions -Ironhorse*
this is to be used as a tool made and maintained by the community. its there to make server operators lives that much easier, who, frankly have better things to do with their time... like make money to buy more servers. I support the endeavor, I just think they need a way to discuss specific evidence native to the site. transparency, yay.
I think the thing we're getting to is a seperate "forum" on ns2bans.com for the discussions that don't work here (the whole naming and shaming being there, not here thing).
I'm very much in favor of keeping the UWE forum clean of witch hunts. Once something like that starts, it spreads like wildfire. Having a smaller board on NS2bans.com for appeals and discussion might be a good idea.
in the pipes is a comment system, each subbmission will be "commentable", to encourage discussion about specific submissions- keeping it out of the uwe forums is my target with that
But why do you even have a voting function in place if an accord for a ban is based on number of the times reported as opposed to the solidity of the evidence? It doesn't make any sense to me to let people vote on something that already is absolutely proven with a video, nor to give people several additional chances to destroy a match via cheating before you ban them.
I would ban this person on the servers I operate, but I wouldn't add them to the ns2bans list based on map exploiting alone. Map exploits, while a form of griefing, are something that UWE can and would solve by fixing the exploit. ns2bans is for banning people for actions that UWE and/or server admins can't easily fix and/or police, such as hacking or mass griefing. It should be used as a supplement rather than a replacement for proper server adminning.
You are weighting map expolit or pistol script as the same level as a speed hack or wall hack?
Since they're all often used with the very same intention in mind, and certainly have the same potential to completely ruin a match, i absolutely place them in the same category. I'm very surprised to see that there's people here who actually think it's ok to cheat just because it's not a hack.
I'm also surprised and a bit annoyed to see that a weird and frankly unfair split of the definition of cheating has prevailed here. To cheat in a game is to in any way give yourself and/or others an advantage via means unintended by the creators of that game. As both map exploits and pistol scripts are unintended, they are both just as much a cheat as any form of hacking is.
Comments
- I wouldn't show what ppl voted until the person looking at the entry has made his vote. You don't want to influence ppl. (neither admins nor the public, even tho their votings are more for show than anything)
- You should add a number to see how many ppl voted on each report (this is fine to be showed before voting - show in the list and in the detailed view), so ppl get an idea what entrys need attention to be voted on. (?)
- Also it would be nice to add an icon, color highlights or something so ppl quickly know if they have already voted on a report or not. (in the overview list)
- I would add a 2nd layer on the votes.
e.g. i click vote yes, it will asked me again - are you sure? so i need to click yes a 2nd time. You want to avoid missclicks, you also dont want to allow ppl to change their votes every other day or whatever.
Not sure:
- I would consider adding a "require more or better evidence button", so in case X admins click this, the voting gets frozen/maybe even reset? until more evidence is added. Maybe videos are clear enough so far, but that might not always be the case. You could highlight the report in some way and also send a notification to the reporters.
There Are 11 reported NS2ID's
Of those 11 , 8 were accepted into the list and 1 were rejected
There are still 2 ID's waiting to be voted on by Admins.
We have 15 Admins, they have cast 64 Admin votes
Admins have voted 47 times In favor and 17 times Not In favor
We have 125 registered users and 107 Votes have been cast by them
Registered users have voted In Favor 74 times, and NOT In Favor 33 times
there are currently 73 Servers Subscribed to our server Mod.
Some great ideas have been passed around and work on the project is always on going
i would suggest that this would be the perfect place to claim innocence, as there is very little recourse for those that believe they are falsely accused, and this thread is pretty high traffic, and on topic. I would also posit that avoiding highlighting specific individuals is to protect the individual from others, which is as it should be. But people should be able to highlight themselves if they are fully aware of the potential consequences. The site in question does not have a mechanism for lodging complaints, and in the absence of that, i would say that the thread discussing the site in question, or a new one, should host those complaints.
-It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer
This isn't the place for that - we will eventually host a place for these kinds of posts.
That's a map exploit
And because of that it should be ok? There's people who live and breathe this exploit now and they should be banned as any other cheater.
I'm fairly certain I didn't say it was "ok" - he asked what it was called.
Feel free to report it. No one will be getting banned from 1 report of trolling using a map exploit but if we get 50 reports from the same steam id it might consider a look.
Also on a slight change of subject I feel there should be a limited time frame that the reports are viewable by the public. We have already got videos that don't show any proof of hacking (in my opinion) and if it goes by 10 or so days without the admins voting accept the report should be hidden from the public until another report for the same steam ID is made.
Ah. I'm sorry for misunderstanding. Whenever i've mentioned this exploit before people who know about it have replied "It's only a map exploit" in means of putting the blame on UWE for not fixing their maps as opposed to putting the blame on the people who abuse it, as if its any less cheating just because the cheat is "built in" to the game.
As sad and illogical as that may be (would i.e. you wait for 50 reports of proven murder before you accused a person of it?), *snip*
The only way to stop cheaters is to set an example by being hard on them. It's not like my video is anything short of absolute proof of the use of exploits. That, and not 49 times more, should be enough to ban permanently. Those who disagree are as much a part of the problem as the cheaters themselves.
*Removed inaccurate rumors of UWE actions -Ironhorse*
And not to speak for the other admins but many view this ns2bans thing as away to remove hackers and the kind of trolls who act like it's their 2nd job to troll ns2 servers meaning they do it daily and in as many servers as possible. Your video doesn't have proof of either. Again, all reports are welcome but stuff like this that isn't clear aimbot/wallhack isn't going to be insta ban from one 30 second video submission. We need more evidence, it would be harsh to give that person a game wide ban for killing 1 arms lab outside the map no?
The idea is for us to stay out of the grey area, after all if people trust the system people will be getting banned from a lot of servers.
*Removed inaccurate rumors of UWE actions -Ironhorse*
The thing we really have to do, as a community, is play with some type of recording at the ready, because I know I have said, well crap I wish I could have just pushed (some button) and recorded that... for every video received, how many times did it happen and not get recorded and entered into our system?
Community participation is really key - how bad do YOU want to clean up the servers from abusive and cheating players?
*Snip*. While it's admirable that you're trying to do something, i hope that you've also considered the fact that just because an ID has been reported ten times it doesn't necessarily mean that the people who are to vote on the evidence provided will actually remember it from before. Thus they may keep hitting the "Not in favor" vote because, as per your policy, they're all supposed to judge each entry from the number of times it has been reported before and not on the evidence of the crime itself. You're setting yourself up for a lot of extra strain with a system like that, not to mention ridicule. You may have hundreds of entries not long from now, and each and every one of them must be reported several times more? Not even a mathematician genius could keep up with all those numbers.
And, if you agree that every server owner is supposed to make their own decision on the matter, what good is number of votes or anyone's decision anyway? If some will continue to refuse banning a definite cheater, why should they listen to the decision of the owners of the ban-list?
To answer Massasster's question; i want to clean up the servers from abuse and cheating a lot more than the people behind ns2bans.com, apparently.
*Removed inaccurate rumors of UWE actions -Ironhorse*
You seem to be confusing things. You are calling trolling/griefing cheating. Using exploits like the map exploit is trolling/griefing. It would be down right illogical to ban someone from tons of servers for 1 instance of a said event. However, they only require 1 instance of hacking for a ban.
They would receive far more ridicule, as you say, if they did ban for 1 instance of trolling/griefing.
I do agree with that fact that they should have a way to track how many times a steamid has been reported so that they can easily keep track, if they don't already.
this is to be used as a tool made and maintained by the community. its there to make server operators lives that much easier, who, frankly have better things to do with their time... like make money to buy more servers. I support the endeavor, I just think they need a way to discuss specific evidence native to the site. transparency, yay.
I'm very much in favor of keeping the UWE forum clean of witch hunts. Once something like that starts, it spreads like wildfire. Having a smaller board on NS2bans.com for appeals and discussion might be a good idea. I imagine that's what you're getting at too.
For now though I think focusing on what we've got is a good thing. Don't spread too far too fast.
Thats a slippery slope. I seem to remember similar discussions regarding fade scripts and optimal binds/latency tweaks/interp in ns1....
If you read the thread, they are not.
I was only writing down what one of the mods told me.
He is.
Sorry for the confusion and having to edit your posts, and i appreciate your understanding.
Since they're all often used with the very same intention in mind, and certainly have the same potential to completely ruin a match, i absolutely place them in the same category. I'm very surprised to see that there's people here who actually think it's ok to cheat just because it's not a hack.
I'm also surprised and a bit annoyed to see that a weird and frankly unfair split of the definition of cheating has prevailed here. To cheat in a game is to in any way give yourself and/or others an advantage via means unintended by the creators of that game. As both map exploits and pistol scripts are unintended, they are both just as much a cheat as any form of hacking is.
Damn. That's unfortunate.