Stop talking about div 1 games. This thread isn't, nor has it ever been, about balance, which is the only case in which reference to those games would be relevant.
This thread is about whether or not it is enjoyable to be a skulk against a shotgun. Competitive players do not play for enjoyment or fun, not in competitive games. They would stare at a wall for 30 minutes if it was the most efficient way to win a game.
As for your explanation for skulks not dying: you are living in a utopia. One where the skulks, who let me remind you, attack for diversion, don't die. The very units who are meant to be getting shot at don't die. Ok, yes, and the princess married the prince and they lived happily ever after. In the games I play, units fulfill their roles. Skulks get shot, fades and lerks take the kills. If the skulks aren't getting shot, then screw them, I don't need them, because these marines evidently can't hit anything.
Well that's a ridiculous statement about competitive players tbh.
Also, many times you'll find it's the skulks getting the kills, not the lerk. The lerk specifically can act as a brilliant diversion unit, especially when you have 2 skulks with it nomming the marines' legs off. Again, you're generalising grossly and it's not really helping your argument. I am suggesting that this thread IS actually about balance to some degree. In an even match-up (ie balanced teams), skulks don't always die to shotgunners, and the force multiplier that's talked about a lot isn't really a factor. At least when the teams aren't badly stacked, I can honestly say that I don't share the view posted here that skulking isn't fun when shotguns come out. It just takes a bit of teamwork, but it so happens that I like teamwork anyway, so that suits me just fine.
All the time these skulks are alive, they're saving res for higher lifeforms. If you want to get that higher lifeform sooner, you take a little extra care not to get caught by a pair of shotgunning marines... it's not rocket science.
If skulks go about winning all the engagements against mid-late game marines, then what is the point in all these higher lifeforms? That's just going to turn into an alien roflstompfest.
I suspect that the true underlying issue here is that it's no fun to die as a melee unit against a ranged unit, especially when you got into melee distance and feel entitled to the kill. The same reason that losing as aliens is so much more painful than losing as marines. I get that. I'm not sure there's much that can be done to resolve that issue, but I contest that the shotgun is a symptom of different problems, rather than a problem in and of itself.
waaaahhhh waaahhhhh waahhhhhaaahhhhh dont take my shotgun whaaaaaaaa
Thats all i seem to be seeing. Must be nice to live inside a bubble known as Div 1, meanwhile outside the bubble .....
I'm a pub player, @piratedave. I'm just commenting on my observations from watching a lot of casted matches.
I personally don't find it unfun to play as aliens when marines have shotguns, unless the teams are badly stacked (in which case it's hardly fair to blame it on the shotgun, is it?). This has nothing to do with me wanting to keep the shotgun as it is for my marine play, it has to do with me not agreeing with the idea that it's unfun to play as aliens against shotgunners.
then answer this ! how often do comp players use the shotgun in comp games ? how often do they use FL or GL or EXO ? Its allways JP and Shotgun, they have no down sides, they are just flat out upgrades. The other guys are right on this, UWE need to do something about it.
then answer this ! how often do comp players use the shotgun in comp games ? how often do they use FL or GL or EXO ? Its allways JP and Shotgun, they have no down sides, they are just flat out upgrades. The other guys are right on this, UWE need to do something about it.
I totally agree that FL/GL and exo are massively underused at the moment, especially in comp play. UWE IS doing something about this, though... it's called the balance test mod!
Most marines are pretty terrible with a shotgun, like sinkingmist just admitted himself. If you claim its so easy to one shot skulk after skulk and that it should be nerfed...why aren't servers filled with comms researching sgs first and everyone buying one immediately?
If anything, the opposite happens on pubs. Marines play passive securing only one techpoint, only a few people get sgs and try to pressure, and 70% of the server is saving for that eventual dual exo they think they need. By then, aliens have 3 hives, the fades have been crushing your sg-less marines, and the game is pretty much over.
Usually the people buying the shotguns are the more experienced ones with it, know how to use it efficiently, and are willing to make the 20 res investment. Against any semi-competent alien team, a SGer still needs to stick with his team or he will easily be ambushed down and that p-res wasted.
Of course all that being said, my words were probably just wasted on you since at this point all you are capable of thinking is "omg my groundskulk methods aren't working again" and "its not me, its the gun".
Most marines are pretty terrible with a shotgun, like sinkingmist just admitted himself. If you claim its so easy to one shot skulk after skulk and that it should be nerfed...why aren't servers filled with comms researching sgs first and everyone buying one immediately?
If anything, the opposite happens on pubs. Marines play passive securing only one techpoint, only a few people get sgs and try to pressure, and 70% of the server is saving for that eventual dual exo they think they need. By then, aliens have 3 hives, the fades have been crushing your sg-less marines, and the game is pretty much over.
Usually the people buying the shotguns are the more experienced ones with it, know how to use it efficiently, and are willing to make the 20 res investment. Against any semi-competent alien team, a SGer still needs to stick with his team or he will easily be ambushed down and that p-res wasted.
Of course all that being said, my words were probably just wasted on you since at this point all you are capable of thinking is "omg my groundskulk methods aren't working again" and "its not me, its the gun".
So you're saying that noobs never rush shotguns as quickly as they possibly can?
Well, I don't like to completely disregard everything said in a post, but you've really given me no other option.
What? Where in that post does it say anything about noobs or rushing shotguns? Also, what does a SG rush even have anything to do with the balance around it? If you straight up rush SG, you get a group of squishy marines with 0 pres, wielding a mediocre power SG that is very unforgiving if you cannot aim. That strat is easily crushed.
Well, I don't like to completely disregard everything said in a post
If that's the case, then maybe you should have read the post before posting a reply. Your comment is nothing but rude and inflammatory while making it clear that you either didn't actually read the post, or you read it and went out of your way to make some hyperbolic point from it that is a clear misunderstanding of the point they are trying to make.
saying "Why isn't this everywhere" =/= "This never happens"
Usually the people buying the shotguns are the more experienced ones with it, know how to use it efficiently, and are willing to make the 20 res investment.
This is the single most inaccurate statement I have ever seen.
A fairer comparison would be 3 marines, 2 with a1/w1 shotguns, taking on 2 skulks and a lerk with carapace. From what I've seen of top level competitive play, and from what I've played at lower levels in competition, public gather, and public servers, this is a pretty even match up on average.
Even match up? Sure, why not.
In fact, I wouldn't say its fair. I would say its kind of in favor of the aliens. Not because the aliens will definitely win, but because the aliens can run away if they're losing. By "aliens", I of course mean the Lerk, and so we get to the problem which has been stated over and over again.
Those 2 skulks will die every time. Even in victory, they will die, and the Lerk will flap around like a hero. Hoorah.
There comes a point in every game where a useful skulk will spend 80% of his time respawning. I don't want to be that skulk. Do you?
Go and take a look at some div 1 games where this situation happens a lot. You'll see very often the skulks don't die in this scenario (and in some of the cases of course they do). Denying an aggressive marine push is a major win for the aliens, especially if they ensure that the marines cannot get back to reclaim the shotguns.
I for one really enjoy these tense moments where, seemingly against the odds, a nice piece of teamwork gets you the engagement win.
When you say that the skulks die every time, it's ridiculous hyperbole, and a gross generalisation. I'm really trying to avoid responding with generalisations (like 'only rambos complain about shotguns being OP'), because such arguments are equally sweeping and ridiculous, but there IS some ring of truth behind that particular statement: where teamwork and coordination is required, ie taking down shotgun marines, and that teamwork is not present, there's a tendency for people to blame the problem on the shotgun. My assertion is that this blame on the shotgun is often misplaced, and instead players would do better to focus on teamplay, communication and coordination. I accept there is a degree of generalisation to that sentiment, but it's considerably less than most of the arguments in this thread against the current implementation of the shotgun.
I pretty sure Imbalanxd is not even worth responding to anymore. You made some good points and his response is just ridiculous. Kinda remind me of that guy strofix who tends to hijack what could be meaningful discussions as well.
However, I am going to respond to him anyways (curse me).
Imbalanxd, maybe you should consider trying to play NS2 as an objective-based team game...
But please let's continue the discussion revolving around the thought process of "i can't 1v1 this sger right now in hub for no reason with my skulk so it must be broken"
Said it before, but I'll say it again. If a single skulk can't take on a single marine, yet marines have a superior force multiplier... I'll let you figure out where this is going.
I guess i have to spell this out for you. If NS2 was purely a deathmatch game played in an empty box with equal numbers where one group of marines had sgs and one group were skulks, then yes that "superior force multiplier" would be relevant (and i'm disregarding the research cost and pres cost of shotguns just to entertain your logic).
But NS2 is not a a deathmatch game in an empty box.
Marines typically need almost 2x the economy to keep pace with necessary upgrades (aliens can happily sit on 3 harvesters while marines need at least 5-6 extractors at the same time) to be prepared for fades. Marines are slow and have to build every structure, while aliens are mobile, can climb walls, use vents and harass/move/respond around the map much easier. Oh and did I mention aliens don't have to hold e to build anything.
So basically you only role as skulks is to stop your one or two harvesters outside base early game from dying enough so that a lerk or 2 can hatch and secure that second hive location (which you probably already have anyways). Bonus points if you are smart enough to use vents and bypass marines to get to their backline extractors and harass and bite those down, in effect slowing down any additional pressure on your harvesters.
Meanwhile, marines are still trying to set up their infastructure while building and trying to hold those 5+ extractors. You might have armor 1 by now, but prob not since u needed phasegates or your marines will just rambo off to random locations by themselves. And god forbid, if the aliens mass expand with more than 2 harvesters outside hive, then killing those harvesters is even more important.
So how do I counter your lerks and your 3+ harvesters? We delay more arms labs upgrades and use our p-res on shotguns to hopefully put some pressure on the alien economy and make you respond to it. Hopefully we didn't walk by a drifter so you aren't already set up with 3-4 skulks at the harvester I am trying to kill. I am hoping some stupid "hero" skulk trys to 1v1 me on the way and jumps out at my sg. Just means one less for the ambush later.
Lets look at a realistic example on ns2_tram. 2 SGers and one rifle pushing mezzanine harvester versus one lerk and 3 skulks. Marines have spent 40 pres (plus tres for sgs) versus 30 pres (plus tres for carapace). Who wins this? I would bet on aliens, especially if lerk sits back and chips away, makes comm drop meds, marines have less/no armor. Time an ambush at right time when one or more marines are reloading after shooting the harvester and you may not even lose one skulk.
tl;dr stop pretending this is a deatchmatch game, aliens have the ability to easily counter sgs on pubs since marines are required to do so much more to win the game. stop playing skulk like a retard and use teamwork.
Usually the people buying the shotguns are the more experienced ones with it, know how to use it efficiently, and are willing to make the 20 res investment.
This is the single most inaccurate statement I have ever seen.
I must clearly be imagining half my team saving for exos every game in pubs then. I think Imbalanxd has come up with something novel. Fast research SG and everyone buys at 1 minute mark. SG Rush = game over 100% of the time = no counter available = SG is broken guys. I hope my sarcasm is thick enough for you.
On a more serious note, I would suggest installing NS2 and playing on a pub and/or learning anything about the strategy of this game before posting again please.
Those 2 skulks will die every time. Even in victory, they will die, and the Lerk will flap around like a hero. Hoorah.
There comes a point in every game where a useful skulk will spend 80% of his time respawning. I don't want to be that skulk. Do you?
This is the single most ridiculous and uninformed thing I've seen posted about this game on these forums.
In a situation where there are 3 marines vs 2 skulks and a lerk, the lerk is the one that's most likely to die. The reason for this being that the lerk is a 30pres life form, while the skulks do not cost anything. Any decent team of marines is going to focus fire the lerk first. They will only shoot the skulks when they have to/after the lerk is dead. Losing a lerk is a big deal, losing 2 shotguns not so much.
I don't know where people get the idea that a shotgun is a straight upgrade... it's not. At all. It's only an upgrade in melee range. Granted, that's the range the aliens have to be in while attacking, but if the aliens are going up against a decent marine with an LMG they'll be dead before the even get a chance to close the distance. The best shooters on my team use LMGs, and won't even bother picking up a shotgun till fades come out.
Lets look at a realistic example on ns2_tram. 2 SGers and one rifle pushing mezzanine harvester versus one lerk and 3 skulks. Marines have spent 40 pres (plus tres for sgs) versus 30 pres (plus tres for carapace).
The problem with this, as has been said in almost every other SG thread is that if the aliens require 4 aliens to counter 3 marines, in an 8v8 game, that leaves 2 marines who can do what they want while the 8 aliens are countering 2 groups of 3 marines. Eventually, you hit a point where you just physically don't have enough aliens to counter marines. This is a design flaw in the current game. You can't just "build" more aliens like in standard RTS's, you only have a finite number to work with.
Usually the people buying the shotguns are the more experienced ones with it, know how to use it efficiently, and are willing to make the 20 res investment.
This is the single most inaccurate statement I have ever seen.
I must clearly be imagining half my team saving for exos every game in pubs then. I think Imbalanxd has come up with something novel. Fast research SG and everyone buys at 1 minute mark. SG Rush = game over 100% of the time = no counter available = SG is broken guys. I hope my sarcasm is thick enough for you.
On a more serious note, I would suggest installing NS2 and playing on a pub and/or learning anything about the strategy of this game before posting again please.
do you even read the comments before replying them.
Lets look at a realistic example on ns2_tram. 2 SGers and one rifle pushing mezzanine harvester versus one lerk and 3 skulks. Marines have spent 40 pres (plus tres for sgs) versus 30 pres (plus tres for carapace).
The problem with this, as has been said in almost every other SG thread is that if the aliens require 4 aliens to counter 3 marines, in an 8v8 game, that leaves 2 marines who can do what they want while the 8 aliens are countering 2 groups of 3 marines. Eventually, you hit a point where you just physically don't have enough aliens to counter marines. This is a design flaw in the current game. You can't just "build" more aliens like in standard RTS's, you only have a finite number to work with.
it works because when you put more people in a fight the framerate goes to crap so the relative power of the skulk increases substantially
SG's are op'd...there is no way you can honestly deny that.
Comp players would stare at a wall for 30 min if you could win by doing so...dont insult comp players by claiming otherwise.
If there is a way to win...they will use it...I have spent large parts of games (DoD, Bf:V, BF2 etc) holding single strategic points...with only the occasional skirmish...simply because letting the other team hold that point would cause us to lose.
I see many competitive players using SG's and JP's...but rarely see them using GL or FT.
Heck most will avoid using exo's due to the inherent limitations that they come with (no beacon, slow movement etc).
When you have almost every alien lifeforms that can be killed in 1-2 shots from a w3 shotgun the level of fun for alien game play takes a massive hit.
I have voiced my concern about the whole easier to kill aliens as time goes on v harder to kill marines for many many months.
Part of the reason we see new players not hanging around is that its really not fun playing aliens for the most part.
Sure some highly talented players can own with every life form...but most players spend the majority of their time as a skulk.
If they do spend their res on a lerk or fade they find it dies almost as quickly as a skulk...and they now have wasted 30-50 res.
The only alien lifeform that offers any real improvement from a survivability standpoint is the Onos.
There is not a single alien attack that can kill a marine with 1 hit...not even 3rd hive abilities such as xeno (lets not run the bs line of "but if marines dont have any armour upgrades they can...").
Yet marines have multiple weapons that can do this.
The shotgun is a straight out upgrade...especially if you can shoot....then add in teh fact that if you die someone else can use your res investment and you have even more of a balance issue.
Limiting a weapon to only 1 owner would help address part of this issue from a balance perspective but does nothing to address the impact the weapon has on gameplay.
The SG is very much like the underslung GL....great fun as a marine...awesome gun to use...but totally sucky to play against.
The whole case of things being fun seems to have been overlooked...and its not a surprise that we have struggled to retain new players when you have 1 side thats very much un-fun to play.
If its not fun most people wont invest the time in a game...they will instead go and play a game thats fun to play regardless of the side they are on.
If we want to see the player base continue to stagnate and decline over time then leave the SG as it is.
Overall win loss ratios mean nothing...marines last base turtles happen largely due to the fact that its still fun for marines even when your being over-run.
Aliens are far from fun to play for new players....issues like being 1 shotted compound the issue.
The only time it is easy to kill a shotgunner is when they have armor 0 or when said shotgunner gets swarmed in numbers.
As they get armor 1 and above and/or jetpacks, that is when the real power of the shotgun appears.
The reason is because it allows them more time to get that 1-2 shots off that kills every lifeform except for Onos.
The fact that shotgun is the only weapon comp players use is proof enough that it is overpowered OR you could make the argument that the other guns are underpowered.
Oh shi! I've been backtraced.
Its my brother, I swear.
Anyway, in response to the post about this not being a deathmatch box:
You don't seem to be catching on with regards to the force multiplier, so I will continue.
Lets say 1 marine is equal to one skulk. Do you think 2 marines are equal to 2 skulks? Due to the aforementioned force multiplier, I think they are not. I won't go into the details, because it has been done to death, but it has a lot to do with marines being able to deal damage from range, while skulks must occupy a very limited number of possible locations in order to deal damage.
Because of this, I would say 2 marines are equal to 2.5 skulks. That is to say that, 2 marines will almost always win against 2 skulks, while winning infrequently against 3 skulks, but still enough times for it to be worth noting.
So now we move to the shotgun. Lets be modest and say that 1 shotgun marine is worth 1.5 skulks. Lets also be modest and say that 2 shotgun marines are only worth 3.5. What about 3 shotgun marines? I guess they would be worth something like 5 or so skulks?
So I think its easy to see that quite rapidly you get to a situation where a small group of about 4 marines can be "worth more" than the entire alien team as skulks combined. Obviously you get alien lifeforms which are equal to or greater than a shotgun, but they never have the same force multiplier. Either way, lets ignore that (admittedly sizable) factor for now, in order to get to the main point.
So what does that mean? I guess aliens just outright lose, right? If the marine team is worth more than the alien team in a single fight, then that is GG.
No. As has been said, aliens have mobility. Aliens can get to a fight quickly. Everyone knows the primary way you stop a big shotgun rush or ARC push is by knowing in advance, and hitting them hard on the way. What the aliens have been made to excel at, through what I would call bad design choices, is attrition.
If you ever played the infantry general in C&C generals zero hour, you would know how fun this can be from an RTS perspective. Your enemy is teching up and getting big powerful units, and you just send wave after wave after wave of crappy cheap units at them, and it works really great. You see this prominently in NS2 as well, especially in the early part of the game. The whole complaint that was going on about aliens not having to manually build, so they can just permanently rush the marine spawn over and over again.
While this tactic is a lot of fun from an RTS perspective, with mindless AI paying the ultimate price, it is boring as hell for actual players to perform. So if the marines send 5 shotgunners, and you need 13 skulk equivalent to beat them, and you only have 7 players, what do you do? You keep sending them in. Over and over again, until all the marines are dead. The marines will be left saying "DAMN, DID YOU SEE THAT? I GOT 3 BEFORE THEY GOT ME!", while the aliens are saying "jesus christ I had to die 3 times and spend 45 seconds respawning just to kill them".
A worthy sacrifice to make, to be sure. A necessary sacrifice. A competitive player would make it time and time again without saying a thing, because they must in order to win.
Me? I spend far less time respawning in DotA 2, thanks.
It may be a shallow, boring and skilless game, but at least I get to click more often than I get to wait.
Funny how your description doesnt fit my experience of the game at all...
I have been part of quite a few skulk attacks on marine squads that had the same number of marine players or more marine players than our own force. In some situations we were able to suprise the enemy by pushing in from opposite sides, making their fire less effective and focused. In some cases it was enough for one of us to sit in a vent and chuckle all day so most marines in that group would look that way, giving our team time to sneak behind them and take the first bites. Once you are at their feet, especially if you are initially behind them, you are in an advantegous position. You can focus on one marine at a time and bite them down quickly while they still have to decide on the right target. It is easy for a bunch of skulks to follow their leader and bite the same marine, but figuring out which alien your teammates are aiming at in the middle of the fray can be hard.
Funny how your description doesnt fit my experience of the game at all...
I have been part of quite a few skulk attacks on marine squads that had the same number of marine players or more marine players than our own force. In some situations we were able to suprise the enemy by pushing in from opposite sides, making their fire less effective and focused. In some cases it was enough for one of us to sit in a vent and chuckle all day so most marines in that group would look that way, giving our team time to sneak behind them and take the first bites. Once you are at their feet, especially if you are initially behind them, you are in an advantegous position. You can focus on one marine at a time and bite them down quickly while they still have to decide on the right target. It is easy for a bunch of skulks to follow their leader and bite the same marine, but figuring out which alien your teammates are aiming at in the middle of the fray can be hard.
The key mistake most skulk players make is focusing the same target. When you do that, the marines now have an Onos sized skulk mass to shoot at, rather than a small evasive single target. All the missed shots just go straight into the skulk behind the target.
You could very well be right that my premise is incorrect, however, anecdotal evidence and personal experience will not convince me of this. I too have experienced the exact same scenario you explained above. I've also experienced the opposite, where one marine takes out 3 skulks. I've killed 3 shotgunners with a single skulk. I've even killed a shotgunner with a gorge. Of course, none of that means anything.
This is where theory is useful, because it applies to the ideal situation, which is the only one that matters. Provide a plausible theoretical premise as to why marines are not superior in greater numbers, and I will consider it.
4 shotgun marines cost 100 res including research, at w0/a0, too. To compare them against only skulks is ridiculous. Throw in a lerk or two, or a fade, and in res terms you're closer... And hey presto, you're also closer to a very tight fight.
It's such a ridiculous argument.
The argument about fun is valid: that's a subjective thing. I personally don't share this view since I learned how to combat shotguns, but I do accept that it is likely to be an issue for new players who are getting stomped by better players. However, the balance test goes a long way to increase the usefulness of the exos, the gl and the ft: this is great progress and should help to alleviate the problems that are being attributed (unfairly, I think) to the shotgun. UWE has already stated they're planning to implement parts of the balance test. What more, precisely, do people think uwe should be doing about the shotgun? A reactionary nerf would considerably unbalance the game... In practice, getting people to work together is the best solution: not only do they learn how to combat shotguns, but they get all the additional benefits of better teamplay .
Incidentally, I'm inclined to believe strofix's claim that imba is his brother. There is a difference in the way they write (strofix has a penchant for massive posts filled with numbers in between the conjecture).
The argument about fun is valid: that's a subjective thing. I personally don't share this view since I learned how to combat shotguns, but I do accept that it is likely to be an issue for new players who are getting stomped by better players.
Considering that after 800 hours of play, I still know of no method of combating a shotgun as a skulk that doesn't involve a very high probability of death, yes, I would think it is a very valid and relevant argument.
what I had wanted to state was that jumping into the fray-dieing-rinse and repeat is not my experience of the norm. even if we attack marines directly we can win with a direkt approach instead of taking one bite tzen dying and having to repeat this multiple times to kill one or two lousy marines.
Beside that, as I might have mentioned in a previous comment, in mid to lategame it is more important as a skulk to harrass the enemy behind his frontlines. Bite extractors,try to force beacons and the like. If you engage the enemy direcly you are supposed to do so with higher lifeforms backing you (well its actually you backing them, but yeah...). Situations where no player in the alien team has a higher lifeform or can at least afford one is uncommon unless your team is completely incompetent. Heck, if all else fails the alien commander can still drop lerk/fade eggs.
Comments
Thats all i seem to be seeing. Must be nice to live inside a bubble known as Div 1, meanwhile outside the bubble .....
Well that's a ridiculous statement about competitive players tbh.
Also, many times you'll find it's the skulks getting the kills, not the lerk. The lerk specifically can act as a brilliant diversion unit, especially when you have 2 skulks with it nomming the marines' legs off. Again, you're generalising grossly and it's not really helping your argument. I am suggesting that this thread IS actually about balance to some degree. In an even match-up (ie balanced teams), skulks don't always die to shotgunners, and the force multiplier that's talked about a lot isn't really a factor. At least when the teams aren't badly stacked, I can honestly say that I don't share the view posted here that skulking isn't fun when shotguns come out. It just takes a bit of teamwork, but it so happens that I like teamwork anyway, so that suits me just fine.
All the time these skulks are alive, they're saving res for higher lifeforms. If you want to get that higher lifeform sooner, you take a little extra care not to get caught by a pair of shotgunning marines... it's not rocket science.
If skulks go about winning all the engagements against mid-late game marines, then what is the point in all these higher lifeforms? That's just going to turn into an alien roflstompfest.
I suspect that the true underlying issue here is that it's no fun to die as a melee unit against a ranged unit, especially when you got into melee distance and feel entitled to the kill. The same reason that losing as aliens is so much more painful than losing as marines. I get that. I'm not sure there's much that can be done to resolve that issue, but I contest that the shotgun is a symptom of different problems, rather than a problem in and of itself.
I'm a pub player, @piratedave. I'm just commenting on my observations from watching a lot of casted matches.
I personally don't find it unfun to play as aliens when marines have shotguns, unless the teams are badly stacked (in which case it's hardly fair to blame it on the shotgun, is it?). This has nothing to do with me wanting to keep the shotgun as it is for my marine play, it has to do with me not agreeing with the idea that it's unfun to play as aliens against shotgunners.
So shoot me...
So you're saying that noobs never rush shotguns as quickly as they possibly can?
Well, I don't like to completely disregard everything said in a post, but you've really given me no other option.
If that's the case, then maybe you should have read the post before posting a reply. Your comment is nothing but rude and inflammatory while making it clear that you either didn't actually read the post, or you read it and went out of your way to make some hyperbolic point from it that is a clear misunderstanding of the point they are trying to make.
saying "Why isn't this everywhere" =/= "This never happens"
This is the single most inaccurate statement I have ever seen.
I pretty sure Imbalanxd is not even worth responding to anymore. You made some good points and his response is just ridiculous. Kinda remind me of that guy strofix who tends to hijack what could be meaningful discussions as well.
However, I am going to respond to him anyways (curse me).
I guess i have to spell this out for you. If NS2 was purely a deathmatch game played in an empty box with equal numbers where one group of marines had sgs and one group were skulks, then yes that "superior force multiplier" would be relevant (and i'm disregarding the research cost and pres cost of shotguns just to entertain your logic).
But NS2 is not a a deathmatch game in an empty box.
Marines typically need almost 2x the economy to keep pace with necessary upgrades (aliens can happily sit on 3 harvesters while marines need at least 5-6 extractors at the same time) to be prepared for fades. Marines are slow and have to build every structure, while aliens are mobile, can climb walls, use vents and harass/move/respond around the map much easier. Oh and did I mention aliens don't have to hold e to build anything.
So basically you only role as skulks is to stop your one or two harvesters outside base early game from dying enough so that a lerk or 2 can hatch and secure that second hive location (which you probably already have anyways). Bonus points if you are smart enough to use vents and bypass marines to get to their backline extractors and harass and bite those down, in effect slowing down any additional pressure on your harvesters.
Meanwhile, marines are still trying to set up their infastructure while building and trying to hold those 5+ extractors. You might have armor 1 by now, but prob not since u needed phasegates or your marines will just rambo off to random locations by themselves. And god forbid, if the aliens mass expand with more than 2 harvesters outside hive, then killing those harvesters is even more important.
So how do I counter your lerks and your 3+ harvesters? We delay more arms labs upgrades and use our p-res on shotguns to hopefully put some pressure on the alien economy and make you respond to it. Hopefully we didn't walk by a drifter so you aren't already set up with 3-4 skulks at the harvester I am trying to kill. I am hoping some stupid "hero" skulk trys to 1v1 me on the way and jumps out at my sg. Just means one less for the ambush later.
Lets look at a realistic example on ns2_tram. 2 SGers and one rifle pushing mezzanine harvester versus one lerk and 3 skulks. Marines have spent 40 pres (plus tres for sgs) versus 30 pres (plus tres for carapace). Who wins this? I would bet on aliens, especially if lerk sits back and chips away, makes comm drop meds, marines have less/no armor. Time an ambush at right time when one or more marines are reloading after shooting the harvester and you may not even lose one skulk.
tl;dr stop pretending this is a deatchmatch game, aliens have the ability to easily counter sgs on pubs since marines are required to do so much more to win the game. stop playing skulk like a retard and use teamwork.
I must clearly be imagining half my team saving for exos every game in pubs then. I think Imbalanxd has come up with something novel. Fast research SG and everyone buys at 1 minute mark. SG Rush = game over 100% of the time = no counter available = SG is broken guys. I hope my sarcasm is thick enough for you.
On a more serious note, I would suggest installing NS2 and playing on a pub and/or learning anything about the strategy of this game before posting again please.
Are you a wizard?
The problem with this, as has been said in almost every other SG thread is that if the aliens require 4 aliens to counter 3 marines, in an 8v8 game, that leaves 2 marines who can do what they want while the 8 aliens are countering 2 groups of 3 marines. Eventually, you hit a point where you just physically don't have enough aliens to counter marines. This is a design flaw in the current game. You can't just "build" more aliens like in standard RTS's, you only have a finite number to work with.
do you even read the comments before replying them.
it works because when you put more people in a fight the framerate goes to crap so the relative power of the skulk increases substantially
And both are retarded. I'm beginning to see the connection.
Comp players would stare at a wall for 30 min if you could win by doing so...dont insult comp players by claiming otherwise.
If there is a way to win...they will use it...I have spent large parts of games (DoD, Bf:V, BF2 etc) holding single strategic points...with only the occasional skirmish...simply because letting the other team hold that point would cause us to lose.
I see many competitive players using SG's and JP's...but rarely see them using GL or FT.
Heck most will avoid using exo's due to the inherent limitations that they come with (no beacon, slow movement etc).
When you have almost every alien lifeforms that can be killed in 1-2 shots from a w3 shotgun the level of fun for alien game play takes a massive hit.
I have voiced my concern about the whole easier to kill aliens as time goes on v harder to kill marines for many many months.
Part of the reason we see new players not hanging around is that its really not fun playing aliens for the most part.
Sure some highly talented players can own with every life form...but most players spend the majority of their time as a skulk.
If they do spend their res on a lerk or fade they find it dies almost as quickly as a skulk...and they now have wasted 30-50 res.
The only alien lifeform that offers any real improvement from a survivability standpoint is the Onos.
There is not a single alien attack that can kill a marine with 1 hit...not even 3rd hive abilities such as xeno (lets not run the bs line of "but if marines dont have any armour upgrades they can...").
Yet marines have multiple weapons that can do this.
The shotgun is a straight out upgrade...especially if you can shoot....then add in teh fact that if you die someone else can use your res investment and you have even more of a balance issue.
Limiting a weapon to only 1 owner would help address part of this issue from a balance perspective but does nothing to address the impact the weapon has on gameplay.
The SG is very much like the underslung GL....great fun as a marine...awesome gun to use...but totally sucky to play against.
The whole case of things being fun seems to have been overlooked...and its not a surprise that we have struggled to retain new players when you have 1 side thats very much un-fun to play.
If its not fun most people wont invest the time in a game...they will instead go and play a game thats fun to play regardless of the side they are on.
If we want to see the player base continue to stagnate and decline over time then leave the SG as it is.
Overall win loss ratios mean nothing...marines last base turtles happen largely due to the fact that its still fun for marines even when your being over-run.
Aliens are far from fun to play for new players....issues like being 1 shotted compound the issue.
As they get armor 1 and above and/or jetpacks, that is when the real power of the shotgun appears.
The reason is because it allows them more time to get that 1-2 shots off that kills every lifeform except for Onos.
The fact that shotgun is the only weapon comp players use is proof enough that it is overpowered OR you could make the argument that the other guns are underpowered.
Imbalanxd is strofix. He confirmed it himself in this thread - http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2116892/#Comment_2116892. They are using the same IP as well.
Haha makes my post earlier even funnier. It's nice to know his drivel is recognizable no mater what name he posts under.
Oh shi! I've been backtraced.
Its my brother, I swear.
Anyway, in response to the post about this not being a deathmatch box:
You don't seem to be catching on with regards to the force multiplier, so I will continue.
Lets say 1 marine is equal to one skulk. Do you think 2 marines are equal to 2 skulks? Due to the aforementioned force multiplier, I think they are not. I won't go into the details, because it has been done to death, but it has a lot to do with marines being able to deal damage from range, while skulks must occupy a very limited number of possible locations in order to deal damage.
Because of this, I would say 2 marines are equal to 2.5 skulks. That is to say that, 2 marines will almost always win against 2 skulks, while winning infrequently against 3 skulks, but still enough times for it to be worth noting.
So now we move to the shotgun. Lets be modest and say that 1 shotgun marine is worth 1.5 skulks. Lets also be modest and say that 2 shotgun marines are only worth 3.5. What about 3 shotgun marines? I guess they would be worth something like 5 or so skulks?
So I think its easy to see that quite rapidly you get to a situation where a small group of about 4 marines can be "worth more" than the entire alien team as skulks combined. Obviously you get alien lifeforms which are equal to or greater than a shotgun, but they never have the same force multiplier. Either way, lets ignore that (admittedly sizable) factor for now, in order to get to the main point.
So what does that mean? I guess aliens just outright lose, right? If the marine team is worth more than the alien team in a single fight, then that is GG.
No. As has been said, aliens have mobility. Aliens can get to a fight quickly. Everyone knows the primary way you stop a big shotgun rush or ARC push is by knowing in advance, and hitting them hard on the way. What the aliens have been made to excel at, through what I would call bad design choices, is attrition.
If you ever played the infantry general in C&C generals zero hour, you would know how fun this can be from an RTS perspective. Your enemy is teching up and getting big powerful units, and you just send wave after wave after wave of crappy cheap units at them, and it works really great. You see this prominently in NS2 as well, especially in the early part of the game. The whole complaint that was going on about aliens not having to manually build, so they can just permanently rush the marine spawn over and over again.
While this tactic is a lot of fun from an RTS perspective, with mindless AI paying the ultimate price, it is boring as hell for actual players to perform. So if the marines send 5 shotgunners, and you need 13 skulk equivalent to beat them, and you only have 7 players, what do you do? You keep sending them in. Over and over again, until all the marines are dead. The marines will be left saying "DAMN, DID YOU SEE THAT? I GOT 3 BEFORE THEY GOT ME!", while the aliens are saying "jesus christ I had to die 3 times and spend 45 seconds respawning just to kill them".
A worthy sacrifice to make, to be sure. A necessary sacrifice. A competitive player would make it time and time again without saying a thing, because they must in order to win.
Me? I spend far less time respawning in DotA 2, thanks.
It may be a shallow, boring and skilless game, but at least I get to click more often than I get to wait.
I have been part of quite a few skulk attacks on marine squads that had the same number of marine players or more marine players than our own force. In some situations we were able to suprise the enemy by pushing in from opposite sides, making their fire less effective and focused. In some cases it was enough for one of us to sit in a vent and chuckle all day so most marines in that group would look that way, giving our team time to sneak behind them and take the first bites. Once you are at their feet, especially if you are initially behind them, you are in an advantegous position. You can focus on one marine at a time and bite them down quickly while they still have to decide on the right target. It is easy for a bunch of skulks to follow their leader and bite the same marine, but figuring out which alien your teammates are aiming at in the middle of the fray can be hard.
The key mistake most skulk players make is focusing the same target. When you do that, the marines now have an Onos sized skulk mass to shoot at, rather than a small evasive single target. All the missed shots just go straight into the skulk behind the target.
You could very well be right that my premise is incorrect, however, anecdotal evidence and personal experience will not convince me of this. I too have experienced the exact same scenario you explained above. I've also experienced the opposite, where one marine takes out 3 skulks. I've killed 3 shotgunners with a single skulk. I've even killed a shotgunner with a gorge. Of course, none of that means anything.
This is where theory is useful, because it applies to the ideal situation, which is the only one that matters. Provide a plausible theoretical premise as to why marines are not superior in greater numbers, and I will consider it.
It's such a ridiculous argument.
The argument about fun is valid: that's a subjective thing. I personally don't share this view since I learned how to combat shotguns, but I do accept that it is likely to be an issue for new players who are getting stomped by better players. However, the balance test goes a long way to increase the usefulness of the exos, the gl and the ft: this is great progress and should help to alleviate the problems that are being attributed (unfairly, I think) to the shotgun. UWE has already stated they're planning to implement parts of the balance test. What more, precisely, do people think uwe should be doing about the shotgun? A reactionary nerf would considerably unbalance the game... In practice, getting people to work together is the best solution: not only do they learn how to combat shotguns, but they get all the additional benefits of better teamplay .
Incidentally, I'm inclined to believe strofix's claim that imba is his brother. There is a difference in the way they write (strofix has a penchant for massive posts filled with numbers in between the conjecture).
Considering that after 800 hours of play, I still know of no method of combating a shotgun as a skulk that doesn't involve a very high probability of death, yes, I would think it is a very valid and relevant argument.
Beside that, as I might have mentioned in a previous comment, in mid to lategame it is more important as a skulk to harrass the enemy behind his frontlines. Bite extractors,try to force beacons and the like. If you engage the enemy direcly you are supposed to do so with higher lifeforms backing you (well its actually you backing them, but yeah...). Situations where no player in the alien team has a higher lifeform or can at least afford one is uncommon unless your team is completely incompetent. Heck, if all else fails the alien commander can still drop lerk/fade eggs.