Sorry didn't think I said they did, they do without cara...and given a SG does instagib once w3 is up...I know I often choose regen over cara late game.
Aliens dont always have cara as an optional upgrade...depends on hive choices...marines can always get full armour upgrades as they are not by tech points or hive types...just res (which is also a limit for aliens).
well, if you want to use uncaraed life forms as a metric to compare against weapons... you're only weakening your own argument. the point being, aliens have recourse against mines... no recourse against a well aimed shotgun. I think that was the point you were trying to argue. so leave mines out of this.
Sorry didn't think I said they did, they do without cara...and given a SG does instagib once w3 is up...I know I often choose regen over cara late game.
Aliens dont always have cara as an optional upgrade...depends on hive choices...marines can always get full armour upgrades as they are not by tech points or hive types...just res (which is also a limit for aliens).
well, if you want to use uncaraed life forms as a metric to compare against weapons... you're only weakening your own argument. the point being, aliens have recourse against mines... no recourse against a well aimed shotgun. I think that was the point you were trying to argue. so leave mines out of this.
Happy to, dont really see it as much of an issue...carapace becomes redundant late game as a skulk anyway.
I do see it though as a way to instagib a skulk as he spawns, marines spawn with armour upgrades aliens dont.
I have gone and edited the post
To counter Xao's statement that SG is needed to counter higher lifeforms I simply say why could the SG not do different levels of damage to different life forms?
If it did half the current damage to skulks, 75% on lerks and about the same to onos and fade it would help address the main issue of it being OP'd against almost every alien lifeform and remove 1 instagib from the marine arsenal (still leaving GL's, rail guns as methods of instagibbing skulks..and some other lifeforms)
SGs already do do different damage to different lifeforms don't they? Aren't they light damage type therefore do less damage to armour? Or am I misinformed? Maybe it was changed at some point I dunno?
Anyway, light damage does less damage to armour. Each lifeform has a different makeup of armour to health. I assume the way it works at the moment is that damage effects both armour and health simultaneously as does healing (though that's a guess), meaning you always have the same % health as you do armour as alien (I only assume that's the way it works because otherwise each bullet may do different amounts of damage depending on whether damage is being reduced from armour or health). Therefore for a light damage type, an alien with a lower ratio of armour to health will receive more damage from light type guns than a alien with a higher ratio of armour to health. I don't remember all of the exact hp/armour values at the moment, but skulks appear to have 70/10 and 70/30 with carapace, so a pretty low ratio, meaning they are effected by shotgun bullets more than an onos (which has a higher ratio I think). Therefore what you're thinking of can be achieved by modifying health/armour values so that skulks have more armour and less health to compensate i think. I don't know if that would break other aspects of the game though, and personally I'm fine with shotguns being powerful against skulks (you still need aim).
Of course there's the shotgun spread to consider. I don't know if you can hit a skulk with all of your bullets, or how many it takes to instakill them. But you will naturally hit a smaller lifeform with less bullets, so there's that to consider too. So even though I think skulks/lerks have the low armour/health ratios, fades have mid amour/health ratios, and onoses/gorges have high armour/health ratios, Because onoses are really large they'll always take all your shotgun shells unless they're really far away or your aim is really off, therefore receiving more bullets but getting less damage from them. Skulks/lerks recieve less bullets (unless they're right in your face) and get more damage from them. Fades are middle of the road on both regards. Gorges on the other hand are laughing all the way to the bank, being both small (comparitively to the fade and onos), and having a large armour/health ratio - although that's fine as they have less ability to defend themselves or speed to increase their distance from the shotgunner.
Apologies for my terrible terrible writing (not exactly sure if my point was all that coherent ), and if I posted any misinformation on the topic at hand. My memory's fuzzy on how a few things work (e.g. if shotguns are light damage type still).
On the base topic - I think shotguns are fine against skulks. Still rewards good aim (and tbh I think it's harder to land a hit in ns2, although maybe I just suck), but lower speed than ns1 meaning you can get swarmed much more easily. I don't think a shotgun should 2-shot a fade though.
To counter Xao's statement that SG is needed to counter higher lifeforms I simply say why could the SG not do different levels of damage to different life forms?
If it did half the current damage to skulks, 75% on lerks and about the same to onos and fade it would help address the main issue of it being OP'd against almost every alien lifeform and remove 1 instagib from the marine arsenal (still leaving GL's, rail guns as methods of instagibbing skulks..and some other lifeforms)
SGs already do do different damage to different lifeforms don't they? Aren't they light damage type therefore do less damage to armour? Or am I misinformed? Maybe it was changed at some point I dunno?
Anyway, light damage does less damage to armour. Each lifeform has a different makeup of armour to health. I assume the way it works at the moment is that damage effects both armour and health simultaneously as does healing (though that's a guess), meaning you always have the same % health as you do armour as alien (I only assume that's the way it works because otherwise each bullet may do different amounts of damage depending on whether damage is being reduced from armour or health). Therefore for a light damage type, an alien with a lower ratio of armour to health will receive more damage from light type guns than a alien with a higher ratio of armour to health. I don't remember all of the exact hp/armour values at the moment, but skulks appear to have 70/10 and 70/30 with carapace, so a pretty low ratio, meaning they are effected by shotgun bullets more than an onos (which has a higher ratio I think). Therefore what you're thinking of can be achieved by modifying health/armour values so that skulks have more armour and less health to compensate i think. I don't know if that would break other aspects of the game though, and personally I'm fine with shotguns being powerful against skulks (you still need aim).
Of course there's the shotgun spread to consider. I don't know if you can hit a skulk with all of your bullets, or how many it takes to instakill them. But you will naturally hit a smaller lifeform with less bullets, so there's that to consider too. So even though I think skulks/lerks have the low armour/health ratios, fades have mid amour/health ratios, and onoses/gorges have high armour/health ratios, Because onoses are really large they'll always take all your shotgun shells unless they're really far away or your aim is really off, therefore receiving more bullets but getting less damage from them. Skulks/lerks recieve less bullets (unless they're right in your face) and get more damage from them. Fades are middle of the road on both regards. Gorges on the other hand are laughing all the way to the bank, being both small (comparitively to the fade and onos), and having a large armour/health ratio - although that's fine as they have less ability to defend themselves or speed to increase their distance from the shotgunner.
Apologies for my terrible terrible writing (not exactly sure if my point was all that coherent ), and if I posted any misinformation on the topic at hand. My memory's fuzzy on how a few things work (e.g. if shotguns are light damage type still).
On the base topic - I think shotguns are fine against skulks. Still rewards good aim (and tbh I think it's harder to land a hit in ns2, although maybe I just suck), but lower speed than ns1 meaning you can get swarmed much more easily. I don't think a shotgun should 2-shot a fade though.
About as clear as I think my posts often are...so I didn't have an issue reading it.
Its my understanding that it comes down to armour and HP of the lifeform as oppossed to the weapon doing more or less damage (as this would be seen as a hidden modifier).
So lerks, fades and Onos have more armour and HP than a skulk...so they can take more hits...but the potential damage being dealt remains the same.
The amount of damage a lifeform takes is a factor of the weapon hitting them (their lifeform is not relevant), the amount of damage/shots required to kill them is based on the armour and HP values.
If you are point blank all lifeforms should take same damage..but each lifeform can take more or less damage depending on their armour and HP.
What I am talking about would be SG's doing less damage against skulks and more against fades/onos on a per shot basis.
So the maximum damage a SG can do (assuming point blank) is lower if your a skulk as oppossed to a fade or onos.
Would not have thought this was coded any other way..given the resistance to hidden modifiers (which this in effect would be).
I think a lot of the fuss over shot gun being op is, for the most part, brought on due to alien players not being able to effectively dodge their shot-gun wielding opponents.
Skulks that leap and bounce off walls certainly are more difficult to kill than ones that run on the floor.
Fades that can shadow-step/blink effectively are damn near impossible to hit, even with a shot gun.
I practiced for an hour or so just last night over and over again trying to kill a fade trying to kill me with 1 weap 2 armor upgrade using a shotgun and I was still getting cut down at least 85% of the time. (That might be because I suck at aiming) but I believe dodging and moving in unpredictable ways is core to alien play.
The problem with that whole theory: Movement speed/options are limited, sensitivity is not.
No matter how good you are at dodging, there will always be somebody who's so good at aiming/timing that he's able to completely counter your dodging skills.
And that doesn't even go into the issue of scaling due to playernumbers. 3-4 Marines with Shotguns, that do not suck horribly at aiming, are basically a walking wall of lead that's instagibbing anything, short of an Onos, coming close to them.
A marine with 3/3 upgrades usually indicates aliens have been behind all game. Should a skulk really be able to compete with a 3/3 marine that far into the end game?
A marine with 3/3 upgrades indicates only one thing, that the round has arrived in late-game. It says nothing at all about the quality of the Kharaa team in that situation. That's the main reason why a Skulks should still be able to compete, all basic units should be able to compete trough all phases of the round.
It's one of the NS design goals because it's an logical one. Using your same logic would mean that LMG Marines (regardless of upgrades) shouldn't be able to compete with 3 Hive Kharaa. Yet every NS player with half a clue knows that 3 Hive Kharaa are not really that big of an threat, except for the option to drop Onos-Egg from Tres.
To add something to this discussion: I still believe that Kharaa should receive an inherit armor bonus with every additional Hive they have. That way there is way more room to balance around the shotgun issue and prevent too much One-Shotting. It would also give Kharaa the so much needed scaling for late-game.
For example:
1 Hive Skulk vs W0 Shotgunner = No 1-Shot
1 Hive Skulk vs W1 Shotgunner = 1-Shot
1 Hive Cara-Skulk vs W1 Shotgunner = No 1-Shot
2 Hive Skulk vs W1 Shotgunner = No 1-Shot
2 Hive Skulk vs W2 Shotgunner = 1-Shot
2 Hive Cara-Skulk vs W2 Shotgunner = No 1-Shot
3 Hive Skulk vs W2 Shotgunner = No-1Shot
3 Hive Skulk vs W3 Shotgunner = 1-Shot
3 Hive Cara-Skulk vs W3 Shotgunner = No-1Shot
Maybe there even is room for armor scaling beyond the third Hive, could make it easier to break those "1 CP Marine Turtles". But I'm not too sure on that one..
This way the basic Skulk unit is still able to compete in late-game, as long as the Kharaa team keeps up with the Marines in terms of tech-level. Of course a change like this would require rebalancing of quite a few other damage values on the Marine side. But i still think it's an valid approach that also worked in NS1.
A marine with 3/3 upgrades indicates only one thing, that the round has arrived in late-game. It says nothing at all about the quality of the Kharaa team in that situation. That's the main reason why a Skulks should still be able to compete, all basic units should be able to compete trough all phases of the round.
It's one of the NS design goals because it's an logical one. Using your same logic would mean that LMG Marines (regardless of upgrades) shouldn't be able to compete with 3 Hive Kharaa. Yet every NS player with half a clue knows that 3 Hive Kharaa are not really that big of an threat, except for the option to drop Onos-Egg from Tres.
Why is this inherently true? There are a lot of things a late-game skulk can do that a late-game marine cannot, but that doesn't include combat. Why cannot the role of the skulk change from combat to harassment during mid- to late-game without it being automatically labeled as 'not being able to compete'? Why does a class always have to be able to kill something for it to be seen as useful?
I'm waiting for someone to declare the commander underpowered because he cannot directly kill anyone from the comm view.
Skulks and Marines don't need to be able to do the same things, but they should stay viable units throughout the whole game. And for most units "viable" more or less boils down to "should have a chance to kill". Getting 1-Shot, regardless of your upgrade choices or the tech-progress of your team, prevents that chance most of the time.
The Skulk is more or less forced into the role of an harasser/distracter anyway, due to Marines getting increasingly better Armor/Damage. But an harasser/distracter that can be One-Shot is not really a useful harasser/distracter.
The other issue being that Skulks damage-output stays the same throughout the whole round and he has no options to compensate for that. Same story with Skulk defense, he has exactly one option to increase it: Carapace
Besides that the Skulk has no options if he wants to keep up with the steadily improving vanilla Marine. This alone leads to a role change for the Skulk.
But an all out fight between 3/3 LMG Marines and 3 Hive Skulks the balancing ground should be "even". The Skulks should not need additional p.res lifeforms just to stay competitive in that scenario. Unless Marines bring an p.res investment on their own. At least imho!
One interesting thing tho: So many people have argued against having Devour on the NS2 Onos. Because it's a "cheap" mechanic as it "1 Shots people that can't do anything against it". Yet nobody seems to have a problem when a basic Marine unit can do the very same thing, without a cooldown, at just the fraction of the p.res costs.
Either 1-Shoting is legitimate, then we could have devour Onos.
Or 1-Shoting is wrong, then we need to get the Shotgun in line.
Yes, the skulk is forced into a harasser, so you seem to agree with me. But my point was: why is that a bad thing? Why can't people play a mid- to late-game skulk as a pure harasser and stay out of combat completely until they have resources to get a higher lifeform? Why, in your opinion, does 'viability' equal 'having a chance to kill'? The best harasser skulk is one who the marines never even see, so getting the best of them in combat is not necessary. And if you start buffing skulks to be as good in combat as a W3A3 marine, you're throwing the balance of this game right out of the window. The aliens are supposed to be reliant on higher lifeforms later in the game, it's how the game works and has worked since the days of NS1. Higher lifeforms are the alien equivalents of marine upgrades. The only problem here, and what this thread has been all about, is that playing the skulk is, in the opinion of some people, not enjoyable because of stronger marine counterparts and, namely, the shotgun. This raises the question of why is only combat enjoyable, why can't those players enjoy a role other than combat?
Yes, the skulk is forced into a harasser, so you seem to agree with me. But my point was: why is that a bad thing? Why can't people play a mid- to late-game skulk as a pure harasser and stay out of combat completely until they have resources to get a higher lifeform? Why, in your opinion, does 'viability' equal 'having a chance to kill'? The best harasser skulk is one who the marines never even see, so getting the best of them in combat is not necessary. And if you start buffing skulks to be as good in combat as a W3A3 marine, you're throwing the balance of this game right out of the window. The aliens are supposed to be reliant on higher lifeforms later in the game, it's how the game works and has worked since the days of NS1. Higher lifeforms are the alien equivalents of marine upgrades. The only problem here, and what this thread has been all about, is that playing the skulk is, in the opinion of some people, not enjoyable because of stronger marine counterparts and, namely, the shotgun. This raises the question of why is only combat enjoyable, why can't those players enjoy a role other than combat?
Because marines get weapons upgrades on their base unit to keep it viable late game..instead of being relegated to harassing harvestors...yet aliens dont...and are somehow expected to win without attacking.
Almost every alien lifeform can die to 1 or 2 shots from a SG...even these higher lifeforms they are meant to rely on.
Given the whole need to close into melee range means most of the time taking damage in doing so and the fact that once dead your res is lost (and lerks/fades are not cheap) you have 1 side who are all in on their res investment and another side thats not (as your fellow marines can pick up that GL, SG, FT etc).
You talk about balance yet are wanting to maintain one of the biggest issues in asymmetry...and arguing that its balanced.
Marines can have w3 a3 with 1 tech point and 0 map control outside of their last base...how is that balanced?
NS1 aliens had focus as a buff to increase damage and return the number of bites to kill a marine back to what it was at the start of the game...didn't break ns1...wouldn't break ns2.
If the disparity in scalability of aliens and marines remain this game will sadly head in the wrong direction with player numbers.
Win loss ratios for each side is not as important as ensuring both sides have fun playing throughout a game...regardless of how long it goes for.
hmmmmm.....lets see here. I'll just toss out a few things I've noticed and have considered. Point 1, I've been on both sides of the coin several times, be it with or against shoties, I've seen marines kill left and right with them and see them brutally murdered. I've been mostly brutally murdered but have forced a fade or two back with a shotgun.
Point 2. I believe that the asymmetrical scaling with marines teching is that of higher lifeforms, so when one loses said lifeform, it is not only a serious blow but is the basic equivalent of losing your only arms lab except its for the sole alien instead of the entire team. Would we say that point is correct? Unless the commander drops a new egg or you have enough res you will be forced to play with an alien less suited to mid to late game combat.
Point 3, It seems everyone is fine with the shotgun being reduced to a viable option instead of simply the better option, is that correct? Someone stated before that the shotgun gives away alot of distance that an lmg might have already killed something with, so what could we change knowing that we exchanged distance for power with the shotgun? Also as a personal opinion I would like to be able to take maybe 1 or 2 more hits from a shotgun as a fade
Point 4, Not everyone enjoys the fact that as aliens, losing a higher lifeform really limits you in the sense that by the time your able to be a fade again your team has either already won or marines are generally way more powerful that they were beforehand. As an alien with a higher lifeform survival must be a high priority whereas with marines its not quite so harsh.
Point 5, If you find you are not having fun in the mid-late game as a skulk biting rts or ambushing/assisting with pushes, what would make the skulk more fun without removing the asymmetry of higher lifeforms equates to higher lvl upgrades.
Did I get anything wrong? If so feel free to let me know. I'm just trying to clarify and bring about some fruit in this tree of creativity.
Your first sentence is my entire point: marines are stronger (than skulks) but cannot easily harass harvesters. Skulks are weaker (than late-tech marines) but can easily harass extractors and even phase gates. I don't find anything problematic about this. You are not expected to win without attacking, you are expected to assign the roles so that the combat-effective lifeforms do the combat and the skulks do the harassment.
And you seem to be hell-bent in saying that even lerks and fades can die to 2 shots of the shotgun. While this is true on paper, it's not true in the field. I challenge you; get a shotgun and go out with only 2 shells with you. You won't get a single fade killed, I can promise you, probably not even if those are walker fades taking their baby steps. Scoring full hits constantly is rare even for pro players and gets rarer and rarer the better the fade is. The shotgun is entirely fine against higher lifeforms, and this is shown in the fact that aliens usually start dominating at the point they get fades, both public and competitive, assuming roughly equal performance by both teams up to that point. The fact that most naysayers against the shotgun use arguments like "fades can be two-shotted" and "skulks are cannon fodder" should mean that when they themselves get a shotgun, they should be killing fades left and right and mowing skulks down with one hand. Does this happen? I doubt it.
NS1 aliens had focus as a buff to increase damage and return the number of bites to kill a marine back to what it was at the start of the game...didn't break ns1...wouldn't break ns2.
It would if introduced to the current game. Take into account that in NS1 the jetpacks were much more mobile and the marines had HMGs, along with a myriad of other differences.
The next argument has been thrown around a lot, but I haven't seen a SINGLE counter-argument for it, so please @hakenspit , I beg you to answer this: how, if the shotgun is as powerful as you people claim it to be, is it possible that marines in competitive games don't start dominating the game right after they get shotguns? How is it possible that fades stay alive and kill shotgunners continuously when the skill difference between the teams is minimal? Likewise, how is it possible that aliens still win most games on public servers (sources: ns2stats.org and anecdotal evidence, not perfect, I know), if such a low-tech weapon as the shotgun is powerful enough to almost instagib everything?
Skulks are awesome harassers late-game, so I don't see the problem with this role. You're trying not to die = saving res for later lifeforms. Your structure DPS is higher than a Fades/Lerks = Fades and Lerks freed to do important stuff. You don't cost anything, so you can take any kind of risk to try destroy something.
Yes, it's boring and sucks, but nobody told you to get your Lerk/Fade killed so soon! xP
Personally, considering how EFFIN' HARD it is to get people to harass RT's instead of fragging, it's a relief to be able to argue that you're SUPPOSED to do it after a certain point.
lol I never forget that fact Ghosthree3, I know when I've done something stupid as a Fade when I'm dead XD The thing I need to learn is tactical judgement, which only comes in through experience sadly, so I'll probably be doomed to die much, much more as a Fade untill I learn whether or not I should attack or retreat. Recently I've taken the idea of the Fade being an Assassin to heart and only attack marines who don't know I'm coming and usually from behind or above, and usually only when they are alone.
Yes, the skulk is forced into a harasser, so you seem to agree with me. But my point was: why is that a bad thing? Why can't people play a mid- to late-game skulk as a pure harasser and stay out of combat completely until they have resources to get a higher lifeform? Why, in your opinion, does 'viability' equal 'having a chance to kill'? The best harasser skulk is one who the marines never even see, so getting the best of them in combat is not necessary. And if you start buffing skulks to be as good in combat as a W3A3 marine, you're throwing the balance of this game right out of the window. The aliens are supposed to be reliant on higher lifeforms later in the game, it's how the game works and has worked since the days of NS1. Higher lifeforms are the alien equivalents of marine upgrades. The only problem here, and what this thread has been all about, is that playing the skulk is, in the opinion of some people, not enjoyable because of stronger marine counterparts and, namely, the shotgun. This raises the question of why is only combat enjoyable, why can't those players enjoy a role other than combat?
Let's say that your team got unlucky and lost most of their high lifeforms (happens all the time), but you were able to take out most of the SGs in the process. If the skulk is only a harassing unit late-game and can't do well in combat, what do you do when the entire 3/3 marine team with LMGs (assuming they didn't reclaim their SGs) comes knocking on your hive? Are the skulks supposed to bite all the RTs while their hive dies since they're useless? No. Skulks need to be adequate combat units in the late-game (not the best, but adequate) since that is what you revert to when you die. Atm, it would be like if every marine, when they died, lost all their weapon/armor upgrades and had to fight as 0/0.
One other point. The alien's "marine killer" is the fade, it costs 50 pres. The marine's "alien killer" is the SG, it costs 20 pres. The SG can be picked up after the marine dies, and the marines are "supposed" to have more RTs, hence more pres income so they are able to buy more SGs than aliens can fades. The SG can 2 shot a fade while the fade requires 4-5 swipes to kill a marine. Marines can be med-packed, thus increasing their effective health while aliens have nothing similar. SGs excel at close range combat while also being able to do decent damage at range while the fades are always required to be in melee range and have absolutely nothing to attack the marines at range.
The current way the game is balanced is for the aliens to have a diverse team, composed of all of the different lifeforms, working together. The marine team can just have straight SGs and nothing else and still work perfectly fine. Where is the trade-off of the SG? This would be like allowing the entire alien team to go fade and fades not having piercing damage so they can slaughter the marine's base as well as the marines.
Sorry didn't think I said they did, they do without cara...and given a SG does instagib once w3 is up...I know I often choose regen over cara late game.
Aliens dont always have cara as an optional upgrade...depends on hive choices...marines can always get full armour upgrades as they are not by tech points or hive types...just res (which is also a limit for aliens).
Yes, the skulk is forced into a harasser, so you seem to agree with me. But my point was: why is that a bad thing? Why can't people play a mid- to late-game skulk as a pure harasser and stay out of combat completely until they have resources to get a higher lifeform? Why, in your opinion, does 'viability' equal 'having a chance to kill'? The best harasser skulk is one who the marines never even see, so getting the best of them in combat is not necessary. And if you start buffing skulks to be as good in combat as a W3A3 marine, you're throwing the balance of this game right out of the window. The aliens are supposed to be reliant on higher lifeforms later in the game, it's how the game works and has worked since the days of NS1. Higher lifeforms are the alien equivalents of marine upgrades. The only problem here, and what this thread has been all about, is that playing the skulk is, in the opinion of some people, not enjoyable because of stronger marine counterparts and, namely, the shotgun. This raises the question of why is only combat enjoyable, why can't those players enjoy a role other than combat?
Let's say that your team got unlucky and lost most of their high lifeforms (happens all the time), but you were able to take out most of the SGs in the process. If the skulk is only a harassing unit late-game and can't do well in combat, what do you do when the entire 3/3 marine team with LMGs (assuming they didn't reclaim their SGs) comes knocking on your hive? Are the skulks supposed to bite all the RTs while their hive dies since they're useless? No. Skulks need to be adequate combat units in the late-game (not the best, but adequate) since that is what you revert to when you die. Atm, it would be like if every marine, when they died, lost all their weapon/armor upgrades and had to fight as 0/0.
One other point. The alien's "marine killer" is the fade, it costs 50 pres. The marine's "alien killer" is the SG, it costs 20 pres. The SG can be picked up after the marine dies, and the marines are "supposed" to have more RTs, hence more pres income so they are able to buy more SGs than aliens can fades. The SG can 2 shot a fade while the fade requires 4-5 swipes to kill a marine. Marines can be med-packed, thus increasing their effective health while aliens have nothing similar. SGs excel at close range combat while also being able to do decent damage at range while the fades are always required to be in melee range and have absolutely nothing to attack the marines at range.
The current way the game is balanced is for the aliens to have a diverse team, composed of all of the different lifeforms, working together. The marine team can just have straight SGs and nothing else and still work perfectly fine. Where is the trade-off of the SG? This would be like allowing the entire alien team to go fade and fades not having piercing damage so they can slaughter the marine's base as well as the marines.
I just don't understand how this is balanced...
If you lost most of your higher lifeforms while marines have teched up to W3A3, you're playing badly, and unless you've aquired enough map control by then to drop tres eggs, losing the game is the only normal consequence. You shouldn't be able to hold off a W3A3 marine push with just skulks, unless the opposing team is severely lacking in skill. Imagine if that was possible, if skulks were strong enough to counter W3A3 shotgun marines in direct combat. How do you imagine balance would look like then?
Anyway, I can understand the frustration of getting one-shotted, and personally I wouldn't mind seeing some damage/shot traded off for ROF, but nevertheless, you'll have to live with the fact that skulks will always see their combat efficiency reduced the longer the game progresses. You can't really change much about that.
that will prevent no-skill random oneshots, that is the most disgusting one.
There's no such thing as a no skill one shot kill. Even herpaderps can sometimes land a shot they were trying to. Whether they usually get accurate shots or not, doesn't mean that the shot they killed you with wasn't skilful. It did hit, after all in those cases where you walked in front of a shotgun that killed you 'accidentally', you can't really blame the shotgunner...!
I've gotten a no skill rail kill once. I spammed a corner while my team was building and got a skulk before either of us knew. bwuahhahaha. he probably would have accused me of wall hacks except for the.10 shots before and after that kill.
I've gotten a no skill rail kill once. I spammed a corner while my team was building and got a skulk before either of us knew. bwuahhahaha. he probably would have accused me of wall hacks except for the.10 shots before and after that kill.
I think that's what the insurance industry calls an "Act of God."
Your first sentence is my entire point: marines are stronger (than skulks) but cannot easily harass harvesters. Skulks are weaker (than late-tech marines) but can easily harass extractors and even phase gates. I don't find anything problematic about this. You are not expected to win without attacking, you are expected to assign the roles so that the combat-effective lifeforms do the combat and the skulks do the harassment.
And you seem to be hell-bent in saying that even lerks and fades can die to 2 shots of the shotgun. While this is true on paper, it's not true in the field. I challenge you; get a shotgun and go out with only 2 shells with you. You won't get a single fade killed, I can promise you, probably not even if those are walker fades taking their baby steps. Scoring full hits constantly is rare even for pro players and gets rarer and rarer the better the fade is. The shotgun is entirely fine against higher lifeforms, and this is shown in the fact that aliens usually start dominating at the point they get fades, both public and competitive, assuming roughly equal performance by both teams up to that point. The fact that most naysayers against the shotgun use arguments like "fades can be two-shotted" and "skulks are cannon fodder" should mean that when they themselves get a shotgun, they should be killing fades left and right and mowing skulks down with one hand. Does this happen? I doubt it.
NS1 aliens had focus as a buff to increase damage and return the number of bites to kill a marine back to what it was at the start of the game...didn't break ns1...wouldn't break ns2.
It would if introduced to the current game. Take into account that in NS1 the jetpacks were much more mobile and the marines had HMGs, along with a myriad of other differences.
The next argument has been thrown around a lot, but I haven't seen a SINGLE counter-argument for it, so please @hakenspit , I beg you to answer this: how, if the shotgun is as powerful as you people claim it to be, is it possible that marines in competitive games don't start dominating the game right after they get shotguns? How is it possible that fades stay alive and kill shotgunners continuously when the skill difference between the teams is minimal? Likewise, how is it possible that aliens still win most games on public servers (sources: ns2stats.org and anecdotal evidence, not perfect, I know), if such a low-tech weapon as the shotgun is powerful enough to almost instagib everything?
I am not hell bent on doing anything that bringing facts to the table.
Deny it all you want about things being "only on paper"...you clearly dont play against people who can shoot and now how to time shots.
I have personally 2 shotted a fade (blinked into room...hit him once as he came in...then as he tried to leave), was in part of a last base turtle and took 2 down in that one round.
Those that have played against me as a marine know I am far from the worlds best shot.
If you dont believe the SG is able to chew up fades and skulks then I dare say you play against a lower calibre player base...there has been a very passionate core group of players from oz through out the beta...including the likes of mf, who can easily take on 4+ skulks, a couple of lerks and fades.
Give him a JP and a comm that med's and nano's and he easily takes on multiple fades, lerks and or skulks.
Your total lack of undertanding about balance amazes me....HMG's and JP mobility have nothing to do with whether or not focus would make the game balanced or not.
There are no more a myriad of differences between ns1 and ns2 as there has been when looking at the different versions of NS1 itself.
Comp games are a terrible example for any sort of balance due to the fact they are 6v6, UWE has stated they intended this game to be played at much higher player counts but server performance has made that hard to do during the beta (as the only stable 24 player server with 30 tick rate was in aus (Monash)).
The balance shifts significantly once marines have 9 or more a side and lone marines are less common.
Couple that with the fact that most people dont play competitively (in fact you need a much larger casual player base than comp...simple fact again) and your argument about comp games loses any relevance at all.
I am of the belief that the comp scene (and the 6v6 legacy from ns1) has hampered the balance of this game and resulted in many new players being turned off.
Its been a long time (would say 7+ years) since the 12 player server size has been common and sought after.
Due to improvements in source engine, the popularity of the BF series the gaming community has for a long time seen 24 as the new 12 player.
There are a few reasons for this, besides bigger player numbers being more fun, 1 good player on the other team does not dictate victory (as it did with CS, TFC, DoD etc).
The fact that the NS2 comp scene has remained at only 12 player is part legacy and part practical (due to lack of servers that offer decent tick rates at higher player counts).
But in no way shape or form should it be seen as a good example of how the game plays.
Marines are much weaker with lower player counts...the damage multiplier of multiple marines is far superior to that of aliens...due to ranged v melee and the ability to have marines move around in larger groups.
There needs to be more to an argument than "but I dont see that happening in comp games" as only a small fraction of the community plays comp games.
If we want to have a community in the next few years we need to ensure new players, who seek out larger servers, are not turned off the game due to it being balanced for servers half the size of what they are playing.
Comp scene means nothing to anyone besides comp players (been one myself over many games..over many years...but no longer have the time/desire to dedicate) and when the comp scene plays at player counts so different to those of the general public it clouds the issue.
Now I know all too well how much the comp scene was behind the push to have NS2 made...I am not saying they have not given a lot to this game...but the game itself has moved on and the issues that new players encounter are worlds apart from those that the comp players see.
This game is meant to be easy to learn...yet hard to master...currently thats only true for marines...for aliens its hard to learn and even harder to master.
As new player spend half their game time (in theory) playing both sides...they get turned of very quickly as its only enjoying playing one side is detrimental to their experience...and they wont invest the time in learning how to play aliens (as its too unforgiving...reminds me of games back in the 80's).
I shall "tip my hat" and say "good day sir" at this point as I dont see you being willing to concede any of the above points and dont see any value in repeating myself or being drawn into tangents.
I just hope UWE are smart enough to remember that they themselves said a game should be fun to play for both sides rather than both sides having an even chance of winning (paraphrased).
They have remembered this on occasions in the past and set about making skulk play more enjoyable and accessible, the SG though is the current blight on that...having taken over from the underslung GL.
It does need to be fixed or we will continue to see the community struggle to grow.
that will prevent no-skill random oneshots, that is the most disgusting one.
There's no such thing as a no skill one shot kill. Even herpaderps can sometimes land a shot they were trying to. Whether they usually get accurate shots or not, doesn't mean that the shot they killed you with wasn't skilful. It did hit, after all in those cases where you walked in front of a shotgun that killed you 'accidentally', you can't really blame the shotgunner...!
trying is one thing, being capable enough to be more successfull at your attempts is another. that is called skill, that what diffrentiates a noob from a pro
everyone tries to aim at a lighting speed skulk with rifle but only few can hit such a skulk. because rifle is highly dependant on your aiming skills.
the noober you are, the less bullets hit the target. thats why a noob stands no chance against a veteran skulk who is capable of evasive movement.
thats not the case with the shotgun, there is a huge circle of death and anything gets within is doomed. success of one attempt with shotgun gives the marine overall success . while success of one attempt with rifle is only a 1 bullet "10 dmg" and a single part of overall success.
by saying there is no accidental kills AT ALL you are just lying to yourself. and less credible you get with each sentence you write.
that will prevent no-skill random oneshots, that is the most disgusting one.
There's no such thing as a no skill one shot kill. Even herpaderps can sometimes land a shot they were trying to. Whether they usually get accurate shots or not, doesn't mean that the shot they killed you with wasn't skilful. It did hit, after all in those cases where you walked in front of a shotgun that killed you 'accidentally', you can't really blame the shotgunner...!
trying is one thing, being capable enough to be more successfull at your attempts is another. that is called skill, that what diffrentiates a noob from a pro
everyone tries to aim at a lighting speed skulk with rifle but only few can hit such a skulk. because rifle is highly dependant on your aiming skills.
the noober you are, the less bullets hit the target. thats why a noob stands no chance against a veteran skulk who is capable of evasive movement.
thats not the case with the shotgun, there is a huge circle of death and anything gets within is doomed. success of one attempt with shotgun gives the marine overall success . while success of one attempt with rifle is only a 1 bullet "10 dmg" and a single part of overall success.
by saying there is no accidental kills AT ALL you are just lying to yourself. and less credible you get with each sentence you write.
Wait, you're comparing the time it takes to shoot 1 bullet against the time it takes to shoot 1 shotgun shell, and you're calling me not credible? The bottom line is that a well aimed shot with a shotgun, or a burst of 10 shots from a well aimed rifle have about the same cooldown to shoot. To say that someone who achieves either of those things doesn't deserve it because they're but good enough a player in your view just smacks of poor loser syndrome.
If you're trying to tell me that a veteran skulk against a noob lmger always leads to the skulk win, but once the noob has a shotgun the vet has no chance (which is what you wrote), then you're just exaggerating to convince yourself that you have a valid argument. You do have a valid argument buried in there, which is that you don't find it fun to play against shotgunners. I'm not trying to deny you that point, as it's your right to hold that opinion. I just don't happen to share it myself, that's all.
You dodged my question pretty well, only by saying that anything in 6vs6 shouldn't be taken into account because of the game not being designed with that player count in mind and then going totally off tracks and blaming the comp community for the problems this game is experiencing. We're talking about the strength of the shotgun in combat here, so the argument of 6vs6 (whether correct or not, I shan't address it here) is not relevant. I'm talking about situations where a fade takes on one, two or three shotgunners, and those situations happen whether the game is 6vs6 or 12vs12. I brought up comp play because of the lack of skill difference; the marines are extremely good shots and the fades are immensely capable, so you can't put a shotgun not eviscerating a fade on bad play. You know this, but you side-tracked your own argument by copping out of answering me with a dubious "nothing in 6vs6 matters" claim.
If you dont believe the SG is able to chew up fades and skulks then I dare say you play against a lower calibre player base
Well, I do play in NSL EU division 1, so I can pretty safely say that I've been playing against some pretty amazing shotgunners. And my fade can still hold its own. Also, if you carefully read my posts, you can see that I've never said that skulks can effectively compete against shotguns. You should do some re-reading.
If you lose your higher lifeforms and aren't capable of replacing them, you lose the game. I don't see why skulks should be made into capable killing machines just because your team was not capable of keeping their actual combat lifeforms alive. Also, stop comparing raw numbers between the marines and the aliens and basing your argument on those, since there is much more to the game than that. The sole fact that an alien lifeform can lose a fight but not die whereas the marines will always die if they lose makes up for a lot of those perceived imbalances.
Comments
well, if you want to use uncaraed life forms as a metric to compare against weapons... you're only weakening your own argument. the point being, aliens have recourse against mines... no recourse against a well aimed shotgun. I think that was the point you were trying to argue. so leave mines out of this.
Happy to, dont really see it as much of an issue...carapace becomes redundant late game as a skulk anyway.
I do see it though as a way to instagib a skulk as he spawns, marines spawn with armour upgrades aliens dont.
I have gone and edited the post
SGs already do do different damage to different lifeforms don't they? Aren't they light damage type therefore do less damage to armour? Or am I misinformed? Maybe it was changed at some point I dunno?
Anyway, light damage does less damage to armour. Each lifeform has a different makeup of armour to health. I assume the way it works at the moment is that damage effects both armour and health simultaneously as does healing (though that's a guess), meaning you always have the same % health as you do armour as alien (I only assume that's the way it works because otherwise each bullet may do different amounts of damage depending on whether damage is being reduced from armour or health). Therefore for a light damage type, an alien with a lower ratio of armour to health will receive more damage from light type guns than a alien with a higher ratio of armour to health. I don't remember all of the exact hp/armour values at the moment, but skulks appear to have 70/10 and 70/30 with carapace, so a pretty low ratio, meaning they are effected by shotgun bullets more than an onos (which has a higher ratio I think). Therefore what you're thinking of can be achieved by modifying health/armour values so that skulks have more armour and less health to compensate i think. I don't know if that would break other aspects of the game though, and personally I'm fine with shotguns being powerful against skulks (you still need aim).
Of course there's the shotgun spread to consider. I don't know if you can hit a skulk with all of your bullets, or how many it takes to instakill them. But you will naturally hit a smaller lifeform with less bullets, so there's that to consider too. So even though I think skulks/lerks have the low armour/health ratios, fades have mid amour/health ratios, and onoses/gorges have high armour/health ratios, Because onoses are really large they'll always take all your shotgun shells unless they're really far away or your aim is really off, therefore receiving more bullets but getting less damage from them. Skulks/lerks recieve less bullets (unless they're right in your face) and get more damage from them. Fades are middle of the road on both regards. Gorges on the other hand are laughing all the way to the bank, being both small (comparitively to the fade and onos), and having a large armour/health ratio - although that's fine as they have less ability to defend themselves or speed to increase their distance from the shotgunner.
Apologies for my terrible terrible writing (not exactly sure if my point was all that coherent
On the base topic - I think shotguns are fine against skulks. Still rewards good aim (and tbh I think it's harder to land a hit in ns2, although maybe I just suck), but lower speed than ns1 meaning you can get swarmed much more easily. I don't think a shotgun should 2-shot a fade though.
Its my understanding that it comes down to armour and HP of the lifeform as oppossed to the weapon doing more or less damage (as this would be seen as a hidden modifier).
So lerks, fades and Onos have more armour and HP than a skulk...so they can take more hits...but the potential damage being dealt remains the same.
The amount of damage a lifeform takes is a factor of the weapon hitting them (their lifeform is not relevant), the amount of damage/shots required to kill them is based on the armour and HP values.
If you are point blank all lifeforms should take same damage..but each lifeform can take more or less damage depending on their armour and HP.
What I am talking about would be SG's doing less damage against skulks and more against fades/onos on a per shot basis.
So the maximum damage a SG can do (assuming point blank) is lower if your a skulk as oppossed to a fade or onos.
Would not have thought this was coded any other way..given the resistance to hidden modifiers (which this in effect would be).
The problem with that whole theory: Movement speed/options are limited, sensitivity is not.
No matter how good you are at dodging, there will always be somebody who's so good at aiming/timing that he's able to completely counter your dodging skills.
And that doesn't even go into the issue of scaling due to playernumbers. 3-4 Marines with Shotguns, that do not suck horribly at aiming, are basically a walking wall of lead that's instagibbing anything, short of an Onos, coming close to them.
A marine with 3/3 upgrades indicates only one thing, that the round has arrived in late-game. It says nothing at all about the quality of the Kharaa team in that situation. That's the main reason why a Skulks should still be able to compete, all basic units should be able to compete trough all phases of the round.
It's one of the NS design goals because it's an logical one. Using your same logic would mean that LMG Marines (regardless of upgrades) shouldn't be able to compete with 3 Hive Kharaa. Yet every NS player with half a clue knows that 3 Hive Kharaa are not really that big of an threat, except for the option to drop Onos-Egg from Tres.
To add something to this discussion: I still believe that Kharaa should receive an inherit armor bonus with every additional Hive they have. That way there is way more room to balance around the shotgun issue and prevent too much One-Shotting. It would also give Kharaa the so much needed scaling for late-game.
For example:
1 Hive Skulk vs W0 Shotgunner = No 1-Shot
1 Hive Skulk vs W1 Shotgunner = 1-Shot
1 Hive Cara-Skulk vs W1 Shotgunner = No 1-Shot
2 Hive Skulk vs W1 Shotgunner = No 1-Shot
2 Hive Skulk vs W2 Shotgunner = 1-Shot
2 Hive Cara-Skulk vs W2 Shotgunner = No 1-Shot
3 Hive Skulk vs W2 Shotgunner = No-1Shot
3 Hive Skulk vs W3 Shotgunner = 1-Shot
3 Hive Cara-Skulk vs W3 Shotgunner = No-1Shot
Maybe there even is room for armor scaling beyond the third Hive, could make it easier to break those "1 CP Marine Turtles". But I'm not too sure on that one..
This way the basic Skulk unit is still able to compete in late-game, as long as the Kharaa team keeps up with the Marines in terms of tech-level. Of course a change like this would require rebalancing of quite a few other damage values on the Marine side. But i still think it's an valid approach that also worked in NS1.
Why is this inherently true? There are a lot of things a late-game skulk can do that a late-game marine cannot, but that doesn't include combat. Why cannot the role of the skulk change from combat to harassment during mid- to late-game without it being automatically labeled as 'not being able to compete'? Why does a class always have to be able to kill something for it to be seen as useful?
I'm waiting for someone to declare the commander underpowered because he cannot directly kill anyone from the comm view.
The Skulk is more or less forced into the role of an harasser/distracter anyway, due to Marines getting increasingly better Armor/Damage. But an harasser/distracter that can be One-Shot is not really a useful harasser/distracter.
The other issue being that Skulks damage-output stays the same throughout the whole round and he has no options to compensate for that. Same story with Skulk defense, he has exactly one option to increase it: Carapace
Besides that the Skulk has no options if he wants to keep up with the steadily improving vanilla Marine. This alone leads to a role change for the Skulk.
But an all out fight between 3/3 LMG Marines and 3 Hive Skulks the balancing ground should be "even". The Skulks should not need additional p.res lifeforms just to stay competitive in that scenario. Unless Marines bring an p.res investment on their own. At least imho!
One interesting thing tho: So many people have argued against having Devour on the NS2 Onos. Because it's a "cheap" mechanic as it "1 Shots people that can't do anything against it". Yet nobody seems to have a problem when a basic Marine unit can do the very same thing, without a cooldown, at just the fraction of the p.res costs.
Either 1-Shoting is legitimate, then we could have devour Onos.
Or 1-Shoting is wrong, then we need to get the Shotgun in line.
Double-standards much?
Because marines get weapons upgrades on their base unit to keep it viable late game..instead of being relegated to harassing harvestors...yet aliens dont...and are somehow expected to win without attacking.
Almost every alien lifeform can die to 1 or 2 shots from a SG...even these higher lifeforms they are meant to rely on.
Given the whole need to close into melee range means most of the time taking damage in doing so and the fact that once dead your res is lost (and lerks/fades are not cheap) you have 1 side who are all in on their res investment and another side thats not (as your fellow marines can pick up that GL, SG, FT etc).
You talk about balance yet are wanting to maintain one of the biggest issues in asymmetry...and arguing that its balanced.
Marines can have w3 a3 with 1 tech point and 0 map control outside of their last base...how is that balanced?
NS1 aliens had focus as a buff to increase damage and return the number of bites to kill a marine back to what it was at the start of the game...didn't break ns1...wouldn't break ns2.
If the disparity in scalability of aliens and marines remain this game will sadly head in the wrong direction with player numbers.
Win loss ratios for each side is not as important as ensuring both sides have fun playing throughout a game...regardless of how long it goes for.
Point 2. I believe that the asymmetrical scaling with marines teching is that of higher lifeforms, so when one loses said lifeform, it is not only a serious blow but is the basic equivalent of losing your only arms lab except its for the sole alien instead of the entire team. Would we say that point is correct? Unless the commander drops a new egg or you have enough res you will be forced to play with an alien less suited to mid to late game combat.
Point 3, It seems everyone is fine with the shotgun being reduced to a viable option instead of simply the better option, is that correct? Someone stated before that the shotgun gives away alot of distance that an lmg might have already killed something with, so what could we change knowing that we exchanged distance for power with the shotgun? Also as a personal opinion I would like to be able to take maybe 1 or 2 more hits from a shotgun as a fade
Point 4, Not everyone enjoys the fact that as aliens, losing a higher lifeform really limits you in the sense that by the time your able to be a fade again your team has either already won or marines are generally way more powerful that they were beforehand. As an alien with a higher lifeform survival must be a high priority whereas with marines its not quite so harsh.
Point 5, If you find you are not having fun in the mid-late game as a skulk biting rts or ambushing/assisting with pushes, what would make the skulk more fun without removing the asymmetry of higher lifeforms equates to higher lvl upgrades.
Did I get anything wrong? If so feel free to let me know.
Your first sentence is my entire point: marines are stronger (than skulks) but cannot easily harass harvesters. Skulks are weaker (than late-tech marines) but can easily harass extractors and even phase gates. I don't find anything problematic about this. You are not expected to win without attacking, you are expected to assign the roles so that the combat-effective lifeforms do the combat and the skulks do the harassment.
And you seem to be hell-bent in saying that even lerks and fades can die to 2 shots of the shotgun. While this is true on paper, it's not true in the field. I challenge you; get a shotgun and go out with only 2 shells with you. You won't get a single fade killed, I can promise you, probably not even if those are walker fades taking their baby steps. Scoring full hits constantly is rare even for pro players and gets rarer and rarer the better the fade is. The shotgun is entirely fine against higher lifeforms, and this is shown in the fact that aliens usually start dominating at the point they get fades, both public and competitive, assuming roughly equal performance by both teams up to that point. The fact that most naysayers against the shotgun use arguments like "fades can be two-shotted" and "skulks are cannon fodder" should mean that when they themselves get a shotgun, they should be killing fades left and right and mowing skulks down with one hand. Does this happen? I doubt it.
Very well, thank you. I don't really see how this is relevant.
It would if introduced to the current game. Take into account that in NS1 the jetpacks were much more mobile and the marines had HMGs, along with a myriad of other differences.
The next argument has been thrown around a lot, but I haven't seen a SINGLE counter-argument for it, so please @hakenspit , I beg you to answer this: how, if the shotgun is as powerful as you people claim it to be, is it possible that marines in competitive games don't start dominating the game right after they get shotguns? How is it possible that fades stay alive and kill shotgunners continuously when the skill difference between the teams is minimal? Likewise, how is it possible that aliens still win most games on public servers (sources: ns2stats.org and anecdotal evidence, not perfect, I know), if such a low-tech weapon as the shotgun is powerful enough to almost instagib everything?
Yes, it's boring and sucks, but nobody told you to get your Lerk/Fade killed so soon! xP
Personally, considering how EFFIN' HARD it is to get people to harass RT's instead of fragging, it's a relief to be able to argue that you're SUPPOSED to do it after a certain point.
Let's say that your team got unlucky and lost most of their high lifeforms (happens all the time), but you were able to take out most of the SGs in the process. If the skulk is only a harassing unit late-game and can't do well in combat, what do you do when the entire 3/3 marine team with LMGs (assuming they didn't reclaim their SGs) comes knocking on your hive? Are the skulks supposed to bite all the RTs while their hive dies since they're useless? No. Skulks need to be adequate combat units in the late-game (not the best, but adequate) since that is what you revert to when you die. Atm, it would be like if every marine, when they died, lost all their weapon/armor upgrades and had to fight as 0/0.
One other point. The alien's "marine killer" is the fade, it costs 50 pres. The marine's "alien killer" is the SG, it costs 20 pres. The SG can be picked up after the marine dies, and the marines are "supposed" to have more RTs, hence more pres income so they are able to buy more SGs than aliens can fades. The SG can 2 shot a fade while the fade requires 4-5 swipes to kill a marine. Marines can be med-packed, thus increasing their effective health while aliens have nothing similar. SGs excel at close range combat while also being able to do decent damage at range while the fades are always required to be in melee range and have absolutely nothing to attack the marines at range.
The current way the game is balanced is for the aliens to have a diverse team, composed of all of the different lifeforms, working together. The marine team can just have straight SGs and nothing else and still work perfectly fine. Where is the trade-off of the SG? This would be like allowing the entire alien team to go fade and fades not having piercing damage so they can slaughter the marine's base as well as the marines.
I just don't understand how this is balanced...
No they don't if you run full speed over them.
If you lost most of your higher lifeforms while marines have teched up to W3A3, you're playing badly, and unless you've aquired enough map control by then to drop tres eggs, losing the game is the only normal consequence. You shouldn't be able to hold off a W3A3 marine push with just skulks, unless the opposing team is severely lacking in skill. Imagine if that was possible, if skulks were strong enough to counter W3A3 shotgun marines in direct combat. How do you imagine balance would look like then?
Anyway, I can understand the frustration of getting one-shotted, and personally I wouldn't mind seeing some damage/shot traded off for ROF, but nevertheless, you'll have to live with the fact that skulks will always see their combat efficiency reduced the longer the game progresses. You can't really change much about that.
Commander is totally OP. If you go up against a team with a com you have absolutely no chance unless you manage to get one too, and fast.
or change shotguns entirely. like rail exo where you have to charge your weapon for maximum effectiveness.
that will prevent no-skill random oneshots, that is the most disgusting one.
drifters are overpowered have you ever tried stacking 10 drifters early game?
boy you have to actually play the game before getting to sarcasm
There's no such thing as a no skill one shot kill. Even herpaderps can sometimes land a shot they were trying to. Whether they usually get accurate shots or not, doesn't mean that the shot they killed you with wasn't skilful. It did hit, after all
I think that's what the insurance industry calls an "Act of God."
Deny it all you want about things being "only on paper"...you clearly dont play against people who can shoot and now how to time shots.
I have personally 2 shotted a fade (blinked into room...hit him once as he came in...then as he tried to leave), was in part of a last base turtle and took 2 down in that one round.
Those that have played against me as a marine know I am far from the worlds best shot.
If you dont believe the SG is able to chew up fades and skulks then I dare say you play against a lower calibre player base...there has been a very passionate core group of players from oz through out the beta...including the likes of mf, who can easily take on 4+ skulks, a couple of lerks and fades.
Give him a JP and a comm that med's and nano's and he easily takes on multiple fades, lerks and or skulks.
Your total lack of undertanding about balance amazes me....HMG's and JP mobility have nothing to do with whether or not focus would make the game balanced or not.
There are no more a myriad of differences between ns1 and ns2 as there has been when looking at the different versions of NS1 itself.
Comp games are a terrible example for any sort of balance due to the fact they are 6v6, UWE has stated they intended this game to be played at much higher player counts but server performance has made that hard to do during the beta (as the only stable 24 player server with 30 tick rate was in aus (Monash)).
The balance shifts significantly once marines have 9 or more a side and lone marines are less common.
Couple that with the fact that most people dont play competitively (in fact you need a much larger casual player base than comp...simple fact again) and your argument about comp games loses any relevance at all.
I am of the belief that the comp scene (and the 6v6 legacy from ns1) has hampered the balance of this game and resulted in many new players being turned off.
Its been a long time (would say 7+ years) since the 12 player server size has been common and sought after.
Due to improvements in source engine, the popularity of the BF series the gaming community has for a long time seen 24 as the new 12 player.
There are a few reasons for this, besides bigger player numbers being more fun, 1 good player on the other team does not dictate victory (as it did with CS, TFC, DoD etc).
The fact that the NS2 comp scene has remained at only 12 player is part legacy and part practical (due to lack of servers that offer decent tick rates at higher player counts).
But in no way shape or form should it be seen as a good example of how the game plays.
Marines are much weaker with lower player counts...the damage multiplier of multiple marines is far superior to that of aliens...due to ranged v melee and the ability to have marines move around in larger groups.
There needs to be more to an argument than "but I dont see that happening in comp games" as only a small fraction of the community plays comp games.
If we want to have a community in the next few years we need to ensure new players, who seek out larger servers, are not turned off the game due to it being balanced for servers half the size of what they are playing.
Comp scene means nothing to anyone besides comp players (been one myself over many games..over many years...but no longer have the time/desire to dedicate) and when the comp scene plays at player counts so different to those of the general public it clouds the issue.
Now I know all too well how much the comp scene was behind the push to have NS2 made...I am not saying they have not given a lot to this game...but the game itself has moved on and the issues that new players encounter are worlds apart from those that the comp players see.
This game is meant to be easy to learn...yet hard to master...currently thats only true for marines...for aliens its hard to learn and even harder to master.
As new player spend half their game time (in theory) playing both sides...they get turned of very quickly as its only enjoying playing one side is detrimental to their experience...and they wont invest the time in learning how to play aliens (as its too unforgiving...reminds me of games back in the 80's).
I shall "tip my hat" and say "good day sir" at this point as I dont see you being willing to concede any of the above points and dont see any value in repeating myself or being drawn into tangents.
I just hope UWE are smart enough to remember that they themselves said a game should be fun to play for both sides rather than both sides having an even chance of winning (paraphrased).
They have remembered this on occasions in the past and set about making skulk play more enjoyable and accessible, the SG though is the current blight on that...having taken over from the underslung GL.
It does need to be fixed or we will continue to see the community struggle to grow.
edit: do you really think i don't know the limit for drifters?
your attitude, is just weird.. you are one of the few on this forum i find irritating. huge success =D>
trying is one thing, being capable enough to be more successfull at your attempts is another. that is called skill, that what diffrentiates a noob from a pro
everyone tries to aim at a lighting speed skulk with rifle but only few can hit such a skulk. because rifle is highly dependant on your aiming skills.
the noober you are, the less bullets hit the target. thats why a noob stands no chance against a veteran skulk who is capable of evasive movement.
thats not the case with the shotgun, there is a huge circle of death and anything gets within is doomed. success of one attempt with shotgun gives the marine overall success . while success of one attempt with rifle is only a 1 bullet "10 dmg" and a single part of overall success.
by saying there is no accidental kills AT ALL you are just lying to yourself. and less credible you get with each sentence you write.
Wait, you're comparing the time it takes to shoot 1 bullet against the time it takes to shoot 1 shotgun shell, and you're calling me not credible? The bottom line is that a well aimed shot with a shotgun, or a burst of 10 shots from a well aimed rifle have about the same cooldown to shoot. To say that someone who achieves either of those things doesn't deserve it because they're but good enough a player in your view just smacks of poor loser syndrome.
If you're trying to tell me that a veteran skulk against a noob lmger always leads to the skulk win, but once the noob has a shotgun the vet has no chance (which is what you wrote), then you're just exaggerating to convince yourself that you have a valid argument. You do have a valid argument buried in there, which is that you don't find it fun to play against shotgunners. I'm not trying to deny you that point, as it's your right to hold that opinion. I just don't happen to share it myself, that's all.
Considering I find almost all the opinions you've posted stupid I can say it doesn't bother me that I irritate you.
You dodged my question pretty well, only by saying that anything in 6vs6 shouldn't be taken into account because of the game not being designed with that player count in mind and then going totally off tracks and blaming the comp community for the problems this game is experiencing. We're talking about the strength of the shotgun in combat here, so the argument of 6vs6 (whether correct or not, I shan't address it here) is not relevant. I'm talking about situations where a fade takes on one, two or three shotgunners, and those situations happen whether the game is 6vs6 or 12vs12. I brought up comp play because of the lack of skill difference; the marines are extremely good shots and the fades are immensely capable, so you can't put a shotgun not eviscerating a fade on bad play. You know this, but you side-tracked your own argument by copping out of answering me with a dubious "nothing in 6vs6 matters" claim.
Well, I do play in NSL EU division 1, so I can pretty safely say that I've been playing against some pretty amazing shotgunners. And my fade can still hold its own. Also, if you carefully read my posts, you can see that I've never said that skulks can effectively compete against shotguns. You should do some re-reading.
@Samus1111111
If you lose your higher lifeforms and aren't capable of replacing them, you lose the game. I don't see why skulks should be made into capable killing machines just because your team was not capable of keeping their actual combat lifeforms alive. Also, stop comparing raw numbers between the marines and the aliens and basing your argument on those, since there is much more to the game than that. The sole fact that an alien lifeform can lose a fight but not die whereas the marines will always die if they lose makes up for a lot of those perceived imbalances.