i dont think the current version is anywhere close to being intuitive at all. no strafeaccel system ever can be and this has always been one of its drawbacks - are we really arguing about that now?
i never argued against depth so im not sure why you imply i do? what i mean about your claims being subjective is that you are looking at things from a certain angle, with your own ideas and ideology but the simple fact is that there is no ultimate right or wrong in these things. but by claiming people who hold differing opinions to yours as being irrational, you are trying to shut down the conversation because its not going entirely your way and thats not cool.
Having something that adds to the players skill of the game in the form of movement wanting to be removed with no alternatives by people who don't like it/can't do it is not cool either
i never argued against depth so im not sure why you imply i do? what i mean about your claims being subjective is that you are looking at things from a certain angle, with your own ideas and ideology but the simple fact is that there is no ultimate right or wrong in these things. but by claiming people who hold differing opinions to yours as being irrational, you are trying to shut down the conversation because its not going entirely your way and thats not cool.
It was actually an invitation for opponents of bunnyhopping to make valid arguments against it, not whatever it is you're trying to say in this post.
Compare: I claim that vaccines save lives. You argue that vaccines should be banned because you don't like needles. I'm going to dismiss that and say that it is a ridiculous argument without validity. That doesn't mean I'm trying to shut down the conversation, it simply means that the conversation is pointless if one side isn't arguing the point (in the case of this example, the point is saving lives).
The balance mod pseudo bunnyhop doesn't use strafeaccel. .
It does! but only slightly, it use to more but was removed so it could be more dependent on wall hopping! That's why you can get the skulk sounds by only strafing on the floor
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Really? It wasn't like that when I tested it a month or so ago, the speed gain was solely based on fall acceleration, but I guess it may have changed since then. I've edited the post in case my information is outdated.
If this mod ends up getting implemented I won't be playing NS2 anymore, simple as that.
I am not a competitive player. I do not play in competitive matches or have intentions to join a competitive team. I am a casual player, simply because I don't have the time to dedicate towards being razor sharp in my skill set. The vast majority of people also don't have the time to dedicate towards being competitive.
So by all means support "increasing the skill cap" by adding bhopping to the game. Force alien players to have to learn ridiculous movements (bhops) just to keep up with the rest of the field. In doing so the only thing you will achieve is the alienation of casual players - the majority of the players. In the end an otherwise great game will recede into the pages of history.
I really enjoy this game and I have the best intentions for it. It would really be a shame to see it ruined by people wanting to force ridiculous mechanics and rules onto casual players.
I've played the mod and enjoyed it. It's really good.
I also played NS1 for years and never b-hopped and did very well as skulk. You don't have to do it to do well, but if you can you have more options. I'd rather not see mechanics that make nearly no sense and are essentially hidden but at the same time it's not going to destroy the game.
Fighting is interesting, moving is not interesting, moving as a component of fighting is not very interesting, making one's skill at fighting be based heavily on one's ability to move using the fiddly movement system makes fighting, overall, less interesting.
bunnyhopping can only be intutitive if you remove the strafeacceleration and make it simply hold forward to accelerate but that kind of undermines the whole point of it imo. its only fun and skillful if its strafeaccel based. strafeaccel cannot be intuitive because it relies on bugged vector calculations - a bug is usually something 'wrong' in some way.
anyway, this discussion is probably best to have in the actual mod thread and seeing as the movement obviously needs more work and is getting new things added im sure it will continue.
but as is demonstrated in this thread and others, the consensus may not be as universal as you think and that there are mixed feelings and uncertainty about alot of things with this mod. it seemed to me that no was talking about these more general things instead treating the mod like it would be some kind of panacea for all NS2 problems.
Really? It wasn't like that when I tested it a month or so ago, the speed gain was solely based on fall acceleration, but I guess it may have changed since then. I've edited the post in case my information is outdated.
Yep, strafing actually was a major gain in speed; however it was lowered so it could be based more on the wall jump mechanic, you also gain speed from fall acceleration (which is why upward wall hops give a "boost")
Actually now that I think about it, everyone's issues with the movement being hard to learn/having trouble with motor skills is lessened greatly, because you can gain speed the same exact ways in vanilla. Heck I'm going to make a thread on it now with video proof to put this to rest, so discussion can continue about actual balance and not movement
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
The movement is basically the same as in vanilla, but with the ability to maintain the speed more. Really all these tears from the usual suspects are fucking hilarious.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I think the problem is the word 'bhop' which seems to have become an euphemism for 'pubstomping' in the eyes of more casual players. This is yet another good example of the desperate need for some form of organized sorting of players by skill in NS2. 99% of these problems/concerns would be either eliminated or greatly reduced if we stopped regularly putting rookies and pros in the same servers.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Don't have the player base or any meaningful sorting system to be able to do that.
Half the problem is the self elected newbie crusaders such as a res and that lawenforcement guy causing problems by stating that everything is a problem. They're just having a big cry for no reason other than that they are too far invested in their wrong views that to admit otherwise would hurt their ego too much.
Ignore them and move on, or bait them and have a laugh.
90% of the changes in the BT test mod are things the core-community have been asking for since the early days of beta. That they only now decide to take steps to bring the game closer to what the hardcore fans wanted all along is perhaps regrettable, but anyone who takes a good look at the proposed changes and tries them out for himself will find that they add some much needed depth and variety to the game.
So by all means support "increasing the skill cap" by adding bhopping to the game. Force alien players to have to learn ridiculous movements (bhops) just to keep up with the rest of the field. In doing so the only thing you will achieve is the alienation of casual players - the majority of the players. In the end an otherwise great game will recede into the pages of history.y
I'm sorry but this is absolute nonsense. If you don't bunnyhop your movement is not going to be any worse than it is in NS 2 vanilla at the moment. Walljumping to gain and hold momentum in the current build is WAY harder (and more frustrating) a mechanic than bunnyhopping will ever be.
The skill floor is not being increased, if anything it's being lowered in addition to the skill ceiling being increased.
I think an ideal movement system probably reduces pubstomping if anything. It means that players of equal skill are actually able to compete with each other rather than the skilled player on marines just getting way more out of his skill than his alien counterpart. Without a properly scaling skills on alien side, a skilled marine is going to pubstomp regardless if the aliens have equally good individual or two.
Also, providing equal skill challenges on both teams means that the skilled players are having an equally meaningful experience on aliens, which then again loeads to the skill levels between teams being spread out more evenly. The same goes for skulking itself: the more meaningful challenges skulking provides, the more you're going to see skilled players playing skulks rather than always rushing for that high impact lifeform.
Really? It wasn't like that when I tested it a month or so ago, the speed gain was solely based on fall acceleration, but I guess it may have changed since then. I've edited the post in case my information is outdated.
Really? It wasn't like that when I tested it a month or so ago, the speed gain was solely based on fall acceleration, but I guess it may have changed since then. I've edited the post in case my information is outdated.
In the current version the speed gain from fall acceleration on level ground is almost negligible. Even bunny hopping isn't terribly effective since the acceleration is capped (in fact it's only non-zero for skulks in my experience).
The main method to gain speed is still wall jumping (just like in vanilla!), while the main use of bunny hopping is to avoid losing speed when making turns. And this is why threads like these are so ridiculous.
The #1 reason to me why bunnyhop is a waste of time in NS2 is because the maps are designed around wall jump and not bhop, you don't have wide open areas or hallway centric maps that need to be bhopped down in to get good speeds, in saying that tho since 24x killed off wall jumping I'll settle for the skulk having any kind of movement mechanic than the jumping brick mode.
I think you are m8, wall jumping has been nerfed about 5 times because of the ridiculous speed gain skulks used to make criss crossing walls in certain areas of the map, BT mod is soon to be enabling this same "higher level" of movement instead gaining speed on the floor until you hit the doorway, getting one last bhop off a wall and landing onto some marine that used to be 2+ seconds away now in half a second...pub players aren't going to find it very fun or interesting that people are now capable of doing this to them or that it might be necessary in some areas to pull off effective ganks.
That's why you can get the skulk sounds by only strafing on the floor
Like the part you bingled in your own tutorial video? (@4:15 onwards, skulk basic) And what's the point of starting a hop like that when it seems skulk sprinting only exists to auto start level 1 noise on the hop, they've introduced "bunny hopping" but because it's so simplified and dumbed down it's not actually possible to reliably start it by strafe keys alone so they added a sprint key to the game and now ctrl is the new walk.
far invested in their wrong views that to admit otherwise would hurt their ego too much.
Pot this is kettle, out of your 2 thousand hours played scatter m8 you reckon you played about 20 hours without 3-4 of ur Srs (clan) girlfriends in mumble to make you look good, maybe 30 hours? Australia hasn't even had a running BT mod server for at least a week (closer to a month) and I haven't seen the server being played in a month and neither has anyone else I know, if you and male fatalities could fuck up and stop pretending you both extensively play this mod every single night that would go a long way to having some sort of non biased discussion about BT.
90% of the changes in the BT test mod are things the core-community have been asking for since the early days of beta.
The skill floor is not being increased, if anything it's being lowered in addition to the skill ceiling being increased.
Then why is every BT mod server empty? I can only find 3 in my ping range from Australia and they're empty 24/7, I would have already been 'trolling' numerous other people if I could ever find one full yet I can't. And the skill ceiling is being increased for the select few who want to spend a few hours fucking around dropping off things and tapping spacebar while moving in a mostly straight line to find the best way to hit res capping marines at high speed.
I think you are m8, wall jumping has been nerfed about 5 times because of the ridiculous speed gain skulks used to make criss crossing walls in certain areas of the map, BT mod is soon to be enabling this same "higher level" of movement instead gaining speed on the floor until you hit the doorway, getting one last bhop off a wall and landing onto some marine that used to be 2+ seconds away now in half a second...pub players aren't going to find it very fun or interesting that people are now capable of doing this to them or that it might be necessary in some areas to pull off effective ganks.
que? i was talking about the dude who said movement is not interesting.. idk what you're trying to say. I didn't say that the new 'bhop' mechanic is good, i just said that if all you enjoy is the fighting and not the movement, then you're probably playing the wrong game.. ns2 is almost like tribes in the way that movement is nearly as important as your ability to aim.
Pot this is kettle, out of your 2 thousand hours played scatter m8 you reckon you played about 20 hours without 3-4 of ur Srs (clan) girlfriends in mumble to make you look good, maybe 30 hours? Australia hasn't even had a running BT mod server for at least a week (closer to a month) and I haven't seen the server being played in a month and neither has anyone else I know, if you and male fatalities could fuck up and stop pretending you both extensively play this mod every single night that would go a long way to having some sort of non biased discussion about BT.
Most of my accrued hours haven't been in srs m8 which you should know, but don't let truth get in the way of an amusing insult.
How can we have a non-biased discussion when you don't even know what is going on and saying "yes how about Sewlek make it so that celerity doesn't deactivate in combat" which was one of the first changes that happened 2 months ago when this mod was created. LMAO
No one plays the BT mod in Australia, I wonder why that is. Average pub players don't know about it, comp players don't want to invest time in learning the new mechanics if they aren't finalised and the big reason is that ns2 is on life support in Australia. But in Xao's world it's because no one likes it. I would love to play it but until there is critical mass and momentum to support playing it (ie being released by UWE) it wont catch on.
Don't have the player base or any meaningful sorting system to be able to do that.
And we never will unless we tackle the issue as its probably the #2 problem driving new players away.
Also, it doesn't take a huge playerbase to make a workable system. I'd also expect its success in better matching player skill would build upon itself via improving player retention. I don't think its a coincidence that many of the games that are big successes have some sort of built-in skill sorting/matchmaking system.
Don't have the player base or any meaningful sorting system to be able to do that.
And we never will unless we tackle the issue as its probably the #2 problem driving new players away.
Also, it doesn't take a huge playerbase to make a workable system. I'd also expect its success in better matching player skill would build upon itself via improving player retention. I don't think its a coincidence that many of the games that are big successes have some sort of built-in skill sorting/matchmaking system.
Well it might be a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Not really sure how much of an impact it has on player counts, a lot do you think ?
Don't have the player base or any meaningful sorting system to be able to do that.
And we never will unless we tackle the issue as its probably the #2 problem driving new players away.
Also, it doesn't take a huge playerbase to make a workable system. I'd also expect its success in better matching player skill would build upon itself via improving player retention. I don't think its a coincidence that many of the games that are big successes have some sort of built-in skill sorting/matchmaking system.
Well it might be a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Not really sure how much of an impact it has on player counts, a lot do you think ?
I'd put it second only to performance in driving away players. Its also a self-fulfilling prophecy; rookies leave because their getting pubstomped by vets, which increases the chance of the remaining rookies getting pubstomped by pros, rinse and repeat. Same thing happened in NS1 where the last few years was mostly vets vs vets.
So a game mode that no one wants to play voluntarily is going to take off once it's forced on others, tell me more about this wondrous logic scatter m80, the only 2 other semi active clans didn't play BT mod because they thought it was shit, one is dead and the other should have died already but nezz is white knuckling atm. If 2/3 of the active comp scene in Aus had no interest in BT mod why would the general public?
Kind of ironically the only clan signed up to the upcoming BT tourney is neither yours nor nova so I guess ausns can look forward to syphilitic phallus in pub a little longer.
que? i was talking about the dude who said movement is not interesting.. idk what you're trying to say. I didn't say that the new 'bhop' mechanic is good, i just said that if all you enjoy is the fighting and not the movement, then you're probably playing the wrong game.. ns2 is almost like tribes in the way that movement is nearly as important as your ability to aim.
And he's saying that tying in the already uninteresting aspect of the game (moving as a brick skulk) to your success in fighting as a skulk (assuming offensive bhopping) is going to drag down the appeal of attacking as well since not many people will probably master it. I'm saying that what the BT bhopping achieves at high speeds was already done before many patches ago in the form of wall jumping, speeds of 15+ were not uncommon going down data core into vent, it wasn't very fun to play against (for various modeling reasons as well as 15+ speed skulks in general) and caused a lot of angst and nerfs to wall jumping to what it is now.
So select few try hards master certain areas in certain maps in terms of bhopping into rooms at stupidly high speed, in turn everyone else either has to learn to bhop and try and achieve the same results but also learn to counter it via their positioning/aim as rine, the bhop system itself is pretty wank, everyone now has to learn a wanky system to be relevant in NS2 and we should be ecstatic that we were chosen for this experiment, people all over the world will crash the steam content servers as NS2 is re-installed in the thousands as Scatter and other assorted competitive players drag us kicking and screaming into the promised lands of high skill based movement and interesting tech tree paths for both sides, Balance Test Mod, coming to an NS2 server near you.
So a game mode that no one wants to play voluntarily is going to take off once it's forced on others, tell me more about this wondrous logic scatter m80, the only 2 other semi active clans didn't play BT mod because they thought it was shit, one is dead and the other should have died already but nezz is white knuckling atm. If 2/3 of the active comp scene in Aus had no interest in BT mod why would the general public?
Kind of ironically the only clan signed up to the upcoming BT tourney is neither yours nor nova so I guess ausns can look forward to syphilitic phallus in pub a little longer.
I pretty much covered the reasoning why people aren't playing it which you seem to have ignored. Unsure why. I have very little interest in investing significant (comparable to vanilla) time in the mod until it becomes official and feature set because it requires momentum to get people to divert from vanilla to bt and then sustain it such that people play it by default. CBF.
As for the BT tournament, it was only announced the other day and lately I've been busy at uni as have many others. We can barely be bothered playing the ENSL and CG finals as it has become a chore and there is a general dislike/hatred/boredom for ns2 permeating the community where the only thing looked forward to is the bt mod.
It definitely isn't a case of the BT mod being bad and thus no one wanting to play it. Infact, it is literally the only thing keeping me and a large number of other people remotely interested in the game. If it fails to generate interest and a renewed community then I and a few others will move on to another game. ATM pub play is rock bottom so there is literally nothing to lose by bringing this out even if it loses some pub players.
Comments
Having something that adds to the players skill of the game in the form of movement wanting to be removed with no alternatives by people who don't like it/can't do it is not cool either
Compare: I claim that vaccines save lives. You argue that vaccines should be banned because you don't like needles. I'm going to dismiss that and say that it is a ridiculous argument without validity. That doesn't mean I'm trying to shut down the conversation, it simply means that the conversation is pointless if one side isn't arguing the point (in the case of this example, the point is saving lives).
It does! but only slightly, it use to more but was removed so it could be more dependent on wall hopping!
I am not a competitive player. I do not play in competitive matches or have intentions to join a competitive team. I am a casual player, simply because I don't have the time to dedicate towards being razor sharp in my skill set. The vast majority of people also don't have the time to dedicate towards being competitive.
So by all means support "increasing the skill cap" by adding bhopping to the game. Force alien players to have to learn ridiculous movements (bhops) just to keep up with the rest of the field. In doing so the only thing you will achieve is the alienation of casual players - the majority of the players. In the end an otherwise great game will recede into the pages of history.
I really enjoy this game and I have the best intentions for it. It would really be a shame to see it ruined by people wanting to force ridiculous mechanics and rules onto casual players.
I also played NS1 for years and never b-hopped and did very well as skulk. You don't have to do it to do well, but if you can you have more options. I'd rather not see mechanics that make nearly no sense and are essentially hidden but at the same time it's not going to destroy the game.
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24106130.jpg
I think you're playing the wrong game, buddy.
*Edited so your pic is a link only - Ironhorse *
anyway, this discussion is probably best to have in the actual mod thread and seeing as the movement obviously needs more work and is getting new things added im sure it will continue.
but as is demonstrated in this thread and others, the consensus may not be as universal as you think and that there are mixed feelings and uncertainty about alot of things with this mod. it seemed to me that no was talking about these more general things instead treating the mod like it would be some kind of panacea for all NS2 problems.
Yep, strafing actually was a major gain in speed; however it was lowered so it could be based more on the wall jump mechanic, you also gain speed from fall acceleration (which is why upward wall hops give a "boost")
Actually now that I think about it, everyone's issues with the movement being hard to learn/having trouble with motor skills is lessened greatly, because you can gain speed the same exact ways in vanilla. Heck I'm going to make a thread on it now with video proof to put this to rest, so discussion can continue about actual balance and not movement
@chris0132
@Minimum
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/130380/omg-balance-test-skulk-im-quitting-ns2-forever
Half the problem is the self elected newbie crusaders such as a res and that lawenforcement guy causing problems by stating that everything is a problem. They're just having a big cry for no reason other than that they are too far invested in their wrong views that to admit otherwise would hurt their ego too much.
Ignore them and move on, or bait them and have a laugh.
- Fana 2013
I'm sorry but this is absolute nonsense. If you don't bunnyhop your movement is not going to be any worse than it is in NS 2 vanilla at the moment. Walljumping to gain and hold momentum in the current build is WAY harder (and more frustrating) a mechanic than bunnyhopping will ever be.
The skill floor is not being increased, if anything it's being lowered in addition to the skill ceiling being increased.
Also, providing equal skill challenges on both teams means that the skilled players are having an equally meaningful experience on aliens, which then again loeads to the skill levels between teams being spread out more evenly. The same goes for skulking itself: the more meaningful challenges skulking provides, the more you're going to see skilled players playing skulks rather than always rushing for that high impact lifeform.
It really doesn't, at all.
The main method to gain speed is still wall jumping (just like in vanilla!), while the main use of bunny hopping is to avoid losing speed when making turns. And this is why threads like these are so ridiculous.
I think you are m8, wall jumping has been nerfed about 5 times because of the ridiculous speed gain skulks used to make criss crossing walls in certain areas of the map, BT mod is soon to be enabling this same "higher level" of movement instead gaining speed on the floor until you hit the doorway, getting one last bhop off a wall and landing onto some marine that used to be 2+ seconds away now in half a second...pub players aren't going to find it very fun or interesting that people are now capable of doing this to them or that it might be necessary in some areas to pull off effective ganks.
Like the part you bingled in your own tutorial video? (@4:15 onwards, skulk basic) And what's the point of starting a hop like that when it seems skulk sprinting only exists to auto start level 1 noise on the hop, they've introduced "bunny hopping" but because it's so simplified and dumbed down it's not actually possible to reliably start it by strafe keys alone so they added a sprint key to the game and now ctrl is the new walk.
Pot this is kettle, out of your 2 thousand hours played scatter m8 you reckon you played about 20 hours without 3-4 of ur Srs (clan) girlfriends in mumble to make you look good, maybe 30 hours? Australia hasn't even had a running BT mod server for at least a week (closer to a month) and I haven't seen the server being played in a month and neither has anyone else I know, if you and male fatalities could fuck up and stop pretending you both extensively play this mod every single night that would go a long way to having some sort of non biased discussion about BT.
Then why is every BT mod server empty? I can only find 3 in my ping range from Australia and they're empty 24/7, I would have already been 'trolling' numerous other people if I could ever find one full yet I can't. And the skill ceiling is being increased for the select few who want to spend a few hours fucking around dropping off things and tapping spacebar while moving in a mostly straight line to find the best way to hit res capping marines at high speed.
edit: fucking quotes and embeds.
que? i was talking about the dude who said movement is not interesting.. idk what you're trying to say. I didn't say that the new 'bhop' mechanic is good, i just said that if all you enjoy is the fighting and not the movement, then you're probably playing the wrong game.. ns2 is almost like tribes in the way that movement is nearly as important as your ability to aim.
Most of my accrued hours haven't been in srs m8 which you should know, but don't let truth get in the way of an amusing insult.
How can we have a non-biased discussion when you don't even know what is going on and saying "yes how about Sewlek make it so that celerity doesn't deactivate in combat" which was one of the first changes that happened 2 months ago when this mod was created. LMAO
No one plays the BT mod in Australia, I wonder why that is. Average pub players don't know about it, comp players don't want to invest time in learning the new mechanics if they aren't finalised and the big reason is that ns2 is on life support in Australia. But in Xao's world it's because no one likes it. I would love to play it but until there is critical mass and momentum to support playing it (ie being released by UWE) it wont catch on.
*Snip*
Also, it doesn't take a huge playerbase to make a workable system. I'd also expect its success in better matching player skill would build upon itself via improving player retention. I don't think its a coincidence that many of the games that are big successes have some sort of built-in skill sorting/matchmaking system.
Well it might be a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Not really sure how much of an impact it has on player counts, a lot do you think ?
Fun police, lol.
Kind of ironically the only clan signed up to the upcoming BT tourney is neither yours nor nova so I guess ausns can look forward to syphilitic phallus in pub a little longer.
And he's saying that tying in the already uninteresting aspect of the game (moving as a brick skulk) to your success in fighting as a skulk (assuming offensive bhopping) is going to drag down the appeal of attacking as well since not many people will probably master it. I'm saying that what the BT bhopping achieves at high speeds was already done before many patches ago in the form of wall jumping, speeds of 15+ were not uncommon going down data core into vent, it wasn't very fun to play against (for various modeling reasons as well as 15+ speed skulks in general) and caused a lot of angst and nerfs to wall jumping to what it is now.
So select few try hards master certain areas in certain maps in terms of bhopping into rooms at stupidly high speed, in turn everyone else either has to learn to bhop and try and achieve the same results but also learn to counter it via their positioning/aim as rine, the bhop system itself is pretty wank, everyone now has to learn a wanky system to be relevant in NS2 and we should be ecstatic that we were chosen for this experiment, people all over the world will crash the steam content servers as NS2 is re-installed in the thousands as Scatter and other assorted competitive players drag us kicking and screaming into the promised lands of high skill based movement and interesting tech tree paths for both sides, Balance Test Mod, coming to an NS2 server near you.
That's empty.
But not by choice.
I pretty much covered the reasoning why people aren't playing it which you seem to have ignored. Unsure why. I have very little interest in investing significant (comparable to vanilla) time in the mod until it becomes official and feature set because it requires momentum to get people to divert from vanilla to bt and then sustain it such that people play it by default. CBF.
As for the BT tournament, it was only announced the other day and lately I've been busy at uni as have many others. We can barely be bothered playing the ENSL and CG finals as it has become a chore and there is a general dislike/hatred/boredom for ns2 permeating the community where the only thing looked forward to is the bt mod.
It definitely isn't a case of the BT mod being bad and thus no one wanting to play it. Infact, it is literally the only thing keeping me and a large number of other people remotely interested in the game. If it fails to generate interest and a renewed community then I and a few others will move on to another game. ATM pub play is rock bottom so there is literally nothing to lose by bringing this out even if it loses some pub players.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/970018_10151466941024022_1015214459_n.jpg