Just to clarify a little bit, at the moment UWE is planning on moving forward with implementing the Balance Mod into Vanilla NS2 in some form, unless there is a huge outcry, which at the moment there does not seem to be. And as Hugh points out, this is a massive undertaking, and does come with a lot of risks. What has been more up in the air is the release date for that, and which features are going to make the final cut, and that is where we are trying to solicit as much feedback from the community as possible.
So I think the best thing to do is assume that we are going to incorporate a large amount of the mod into the game at some point soon, and if you want to have a say, play it. And play it a lot, not just a single game before passing judgement. And please don't just read the changelog before passing judgement, either.
Yep, when I first played the mod my opinion was, this is different. After hours and hours of it I've grown to love it 2x more than the default game, heck it's the reason I launch up ns2 most of the time.. to hop into a bt server;
A lot does change, but not everything. I've had no issues seamlessly going from BT to vanilla game, because essentially it's the same CORE mechanic, nothing is changing there. Just how you GET there is what's changing, aka progression of the match. Just a quick 10 minute explanation to someone commanding BT for the first time will immediately understand, as for the movements those take a little while to grasp but adapting to them felt seamless and quite easy
The plot should just be burned - play the mod, offer honest feedback after playing it. There's no reason to speculate on what will or will not be implemented, its pointless. If they decided to implement the entire thing or nothing that's their choice... Your only role in this is to offer feedback on what does and does not work... not to debate their reasoning behind doing XYZ.
play the mod, offer honest feedback after playing it.
this is 100% the most effective way to affect the course of the future of the mod/ns2. If you disagree (or agree!) with something, the movement, whatever - play the mod and then post about it here. Andi will read your feedback.
(just remember to be constructive about it and avoiding phrases like "this sucks" etc)
but just like Fana said: over 20 years and there's still no other fun movement mechanics invented.
Okay this sentiment has been put forward a lot, but I have to take issue with this specifically.
In the last 20 years, there have been only a handful of games pitting ranged humanoids versus wall-walking creatures that fight mainly with melee.
Of this handful of games, there are very few that are played seriously in competition. NS1 and NS2, I would wager.
NS1 as we all know inherited Bhop from HL. As a mod, it made sense to go with bhop. It worked well for its time.
To my admittedly non-omnipotent knowledge, there have been no sincere efforts to create a new skill-based movement mechanic for a game involving wall-walking melee units versus ranged floor-based units.
This is a very important distinction. At no point in the last 20 years has anyone had the NEED to work on such a thing, as the vast majority of games have not been truly asymmetric, have not involved full 3D motion (as opposed to floor walking marines vs terrorists etc).
So I repeat my plea for originality and idea-making. There is no good reason why we should be hide-bound by past engines' foibles. What is needed, absolutely, is a skill-based movement system to keep the game fresh and competitive. But the argument that no-one has come up with anything better than an accidental bug in the HL engine is not really valid: they haven't had the need to try.
I argue that, with some thought, some modding, some trial and error, it should be perfectly possible for this community to develop one or two ideas - perhaps very different ideas - that can satisfy all of the criteria that people here are clamouring for.
There seems to be a lack of communication in the UW office as both Hughs and Cory's post seem to contradict each other. That is worrying.
Just how many people need to take part in this "outcry"? I am worried about a lot of the changes in BT as are many others. I posted ages ago about the dangers of catering mainly for the vocal forum minority and comp scene. This will alienate the majority of players and NS2 will end up like NS1 did. A few servers with elitist players who spend every round shouting abuse and scaring off all apart from their select little crowd from "their" game (this is why I stopped playing NS1).
Dont forget devs, that the majority are on the servers playing the game and the new players are trying hard to get to grips with it as it is. Most players never come to the forums as they are happy as it stands now.
There has been a lot of changes over the last three years. Some I agreed with and others I did not. The only really bad decision was giving the Lerk bile bomb and I have always trusted Charlie with every aspect of development as lead, especially balance and wish he still was in complete control of it.
If you and many others are concerned, post in the balance mod thread about the specifics of what concerns you... I don't understand why people will post that they dislike the mod, but offer not even a hint about what they dislike? Have you even played a couple honest games on the BT mod to see how it plays?
As for the skulk movement, where have you been for the past 3 years? We have gone through so many iterations of skulk movement that even I have lost count, and I have played probably every single build of NS2 since alpha. Also, the bhop offer such a small benefit that its use is really a very small part of the movement picture, probably 5% at best.
If you and many others are concerned, post in the balance mod thread about the specifics of what concerns you... I don't understand why people will post that they dislike the mod, but offer not even a hint about what they dislike? Have you even played a couple honest games on the BT mod to see how it plays?
As for the skulk movement, where have you been for the past 3 years? We have gone through so many iterations of skulk movement that even I have lost count, and I have played probably every single build of NS2 since alpha. Also, the bhop offer such a small benefit that its use is really a very small part of the movement picture, probably 5% at best.
I have over 1000 hours in the last 3 years (as I said in my post) and I have also played since the start, and am aware of the many changes (as I also stated in the last part of my post). I have also already stated what I do not like in the BT.
A lot of players are maybe not really interested in the BT and tbh I wonder how many of them even know about it. A fraction of any games community come on the forums. A lot of players are in for a massive shock if the majority of the test appears in game. They wont come here to complain, they will just stop playing.
If you and many others are concerned, post in the balance mod thread about the specifics of what concerns you... I don't understand why people will post that they dislike the mod, but offer not even a hint about what they dislike? Have you even played a couple honest games on the BT mod to see how it plays?
Pfttt there was an entire thread on the armory change and a 4 pres welder is the best we got. Now most of those people are already gone. IN MY OPINION (just putting that in since many here consider their opinion facts and get flustered when someone disagrees) I played a few games and have been browsing the forum enough to know that if your feedback does not align with the goal and vision of the mod it will not be considered.
Considering that the armory change is still a topic that is brought up alot still means its not set in stone. Just because you dont see changes to the mod that instantly change something you disagree with doesn't mean your feedback isn't being considered. Considering the mods goal and purpose you quite often see massive changes just to experiment with specific features - swinging from massively OP to useless and all other kinds of in between - case in point with the armory change was that there was an upgrade for quite some time where your armor slowly regenerated out of combat, which was researchable by the commander.
but just like Fana said: over 20 years and there's still no other fun movement mechanics invented.
Okay this sentiment has been put forward a lot, but I have to take issue with this specifically.
In the last 20 years, there have been only a handful of games pitting ranged humanoids versus wall-walking creatures that fight mainly with melee.
Of this handful of games, there are very few that are played seriously in competition. NS1 and NS2, I would wager.
NS1 as we all know inherited Bhop from HL. As a mod, it made sense to go with bhop. It worked well for its time.
To my admittedly non-omnipotent knowledge, there have been no sincere efforts to create a new skill-based movement mechanic for a game involving wall-walking melee units versus ranged floor-based units.
This is a very important distinction. At no point in the last 20 years has anyone had the NEED to work on such a thing, as the vast majority of games have not been truly asymmetric, have not involved full 3D motion (as opposed to floor walking marines vs terrorists etc).
So I repeat my plea for originality and idea-making. There is no good reason why we should be hide-bound by past engines' foibles. What is needed, absolutely, is a skill-based movement system to keep the game fresh and competitive. But the argument that no-one has come up with anything better than an accidental bug in the HL engine is not really valid: they haven't had the need to try.
I argue that, with some thought, some modding, some trial and error, it should be perfectly possible for this community to develop one or two ideas - perhaps very different ideas - that can satisfy all of the criteria that people here are clamouring for.
I treat his statement more as hyperbole because there have been some fun movement mechanics developed recently. Specifically, the hunter leaping in l4d1/2.
It really does remind me of the NS1 trickjumping videos. I just never really got into l4d1/2 much more than as a casual pubber.
I haven't been around much in the past few weeks due to a combination of final exams and my disappointment in the balance mod. As is obvious by Cory's post, the balance mod will be largely forced upon all NS2 players over the coming month(s). I think that is a mistake and I've lost most all confidence in NS2 growing beyond a few hundred player niche community in the long term.
To explain it succinctly, let me quote Colt (All-In) from earlier in the thread:
I for one hope the balance mod stays just that, a mod.
I gave it a try. Not a fan of ice-skating.
That said, I think it's worthy of serious consideration that sweeping game-wide changes at this point will alienate much of the new to semi-new audience. The game's already got a steep learning curve, you go in and assassinate movement mechanics and demand an all new set of learning challenges, you're going to lose players.
It isn't a matter of "It isn't better". I could be persuaded to think that the balance mod has a lot of good changes, but these good changes and sweeping design differences aren't going to bring in a new audience, but they WILL 100% scare away some players; the number can be argued, whether 2%, 10%, or 30% of the playerbase, but anything that has zero guaranteed gain or attraction to a wider scope, and 100% guaranteed loss, should be very carefully thought about before implementing.
Two cents.
-Colt
I think that Sewlek has done a good job with many aspects of the balance mod. Without getting bogged down in specifics, the balance mod is an overall improvement to vanilla NS2. But after 30-60 hours of play and many more hours of discussion, I can't get behind it. The balance mod has a few very controversial changes which ruin the overall experience for me.
I'm disappointed that the balance mod will disenfranchise a non-trivial portion of its already dwindling player base and further raise the barrier of entry to new players.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I read both posts as "We will slowly implement a few changes, perhaps 1 at a time in live ns2. If this goes well we will keep doing this untill a large part of the balance mod may be live ns2".
If you read it like that then hugh is right in saying they will not port BT over. They wont, they do perhaps a change or 2.
If you read it like that then Sqeel is also right for saying in the long run they want to implement BT.
As for the person who suggested the dash movement.
If it includes bunnyhop it includes a gazilion keys simultanously and will not help folk like me who are maxed on motor skill control.
I haven't been around much in the past few weeks due to a combination of final exams and my disappointment in the balance mod. As is obvious by Cory's post, the balance mod will be largely forced upon all NS2 players over the coming month(s). I think that is a mistake and I've lost most all confidence in NS2 growing beyond a few hundred player niche community in the long term.
I think that Sewlek has done a good job with many aspects of the balance mod. Without getting bogged down in specifics, the balance mod is an overall improvement to vanilla NS2. But after 30-60 hours of play and many more hours of discussion, I can't get behind it. The balance mod has a few very controversial changes which ruin the overall experience for me.
I'm disappointed that the balance mod will disenfranchise a non-trivial portion of its already dwindling player base and further raise the barrier of entry to new players.
Your phrased what I think as well. Sure the mod has a few changes that are good so you cannot say the entire thing is horribly bad for the game but it does not take many changes to ruin the game for some. In my case the skulk changes in 240 severely lowered enjoyability for me and that was just one change. The BT mod has a handful of similar changes that I can never get behind because like you said there are a few controversial changes that can ruin the experience for individuals. No point in getting into them because arguing about it comes down to subjective opinions most of the time that turns into petty arguments. So it is pretty much up to UWE or whoever makes the final choice to decide what is best for the game in the end so I hope it all works out.
Considering that the armory change is still a topic that is brought up alot still means its not set in stone. Just because you dont see changes to the mod that instantly change something you disagree with doesn't mean your feedback isn't being considered. Considering the mods goal and purpose you quite often see massive changes just to experiment with specific features - swinging from massively OP to useless and all other kinds of in between - case in point with the armory change was that there was an upgrade for quite some time where your armor slowly regenerated out of combat, which was researchable by the commander.
The armor regen thing was a token gesture that I am glad to see go. The end result is what matters. So I guess it is a waiting game to see what the final product will be if you say it is still up for debate. With the huge list of changes some will never even be properly discussed so I am just waiting to see what makes it in to have a clearer view of what exactly is going on.
I treat his statement more as hyperbole because there have been some fun movement mechanics developed recently. Specifically, the hunter leaping in l4d1/2.
It really does remind me of the NS1 trickjumping videos. I just never really got into l4d1/2 much more than as a casual pubber.
From that video, it looks like a poor version of the movement in the hl1 vampire slayer mod.
Tane, who played competitive l4d between ns1 and ns2, has previously told me that the movement in l4d was stunted and boring compared to ns1, so yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that this example proves my point rather than yours.
I invite you to prove my claim wrong, though, I would be delighted to discover an actual piece of valuable innovation in movement mechanics.
As for my supposed hyperbole, let me show you what hyberbole really looks like:
I'm disappointed that the balance mod will disenfranchise a non-trivial portion of its already dwindling player base and further raise the barrier of entry to new players.
Changes to game mechanics disenfranchising players, oh my!
As for the repeated assertions that "balance mod will kill ns2!" from certain individuals in this thread: Somehow I don't think doing nothing while watching the player population steadily dwindle towards zero has a greater likelyhood of keeping the community afloat, than a significant update with exciting new features.
I think that Sewlek has done a good job with many aspects of the balance mod. Without getting bogged down in specifics, the balance mod is an overall improvement to vanilla NS2. But after 30-60 hours of play and many more hours of discussion, I can't get behind it. The balance mod has a few very controversial changes which ruin the overall experience for me.
If a few controversial changes, most of which don't alter the fundamentals of the game other than to add more options, is enough to drive you away from the game, I'm gonna go ahead and say that you didn't like it that much to begin with. I'm tempted to suggest that your threats of quitting the game is just a petulant tantrum, essentially translating to "either we play by my rules or we don't play at all!".
I've seen you argue vigorously against any change to armory armor heal, alien base movement, fade blink/shadowstep, medpacks, well, actually, I've seen you argue vigorously against pretty much any change to the game at all. At this point I don't think there's anything I can say to argue against you, because you've already made up your mind that any change is by definition bad. That being the case, the only reasonable action to take is simply to ignore you, as you are acting as a roadblock, preventing any progress.
Its only in the anarchy of the Internet where random guys who are talking about things they really have no clue about. There's no respect for authority. Even in random hobby clubs in Real World people respect more experienced people, let alone those globally recognized.
Wouldn't it be funny if some random dude started arguing about ice hockey mechanics with Wayne Gretzky.
That is what this when I see Fana, Tane or b1 talk with you about these things.
Too many people have ego investment in their opinions and can't just say: "okay I'm not skilled enough to talk about these things". There's no shame, even I trust their judgement over mine because they are better, and more achieved players than I am. I have come to learn this, sometimes the hard way in NS1 when I played with them.
I must say I'm delighted by NS2 devs pushing for some form of skill-based movement. UWE, as small studio have done many smart things that many big companies fail to do. By pushing for skill-based movement they are going against the flow of mainstream games and investing in something that can pay off. Its refreshing. I will not lie, and I will say there are risks associated. I think the bigger risks do not come from bhop itself but the fact that the better the game gets, bigger the skill gap between best and the worst, and thus more stomp games unless there is some kind of system that takes care of uneven teams. This was underrated problem in NS1. Someone like Tane in NS1 could slaughter a team of noobs alone.
But I repeat what I said before, getting awesome game is never about getting one thing right. Its about getting many, many things right. NS1 was awesome because it happened to get so many things right. In my opinion, listen to people like Fana, who in more efficient world should be charging a hourly rate for all this advice, and NS2 will be a better game. It is the most simplest yet most effective advice I could give. Since something is happening, maybe you already are, so don't take this the wrong way.
It would be shame if skill-based movement would be dropped because any of these inane arguments in this thread. NS1 stayed alive super long because it had so much competitive depth compared to what else was on the market. Even the public players need to understand this. Failing to understand these things will result in AVP3 scenario.
I think too many people get stuck in this "competitive vs public" thing and think its a zero-sum game, when in fact its not. There are many things that benefit everyone even though it does not seem so prima facie.
Roobubba: Even ranged vs ranged benefits from skill-based movement. Warsow is a great example. In my opinion it adds depth to any FPS game. In fact, to compete with the greats of the past such as Q3CPMA, you need to have a skill-based movement. The lack of skill-based movement is reason why most modern FPS'es are boring.
ScardyBob: I think I talked with Tane some time ago about skill-based movements and L4D2 came up. He said that its pretty decent but not much compared to bhop.
jiriki - warsow and cpma are great games, but they both experienced alot of difficulty in attracting players and growing a scene beyond a very small hardcore. its not worth turning NS2 into the same thing - especially because those that want to can indulge themselves with the mod can without forcing it on others.
I treat his statement more as hyperbole because there have been some fun movement mechanics developed recently. Specifically, the hunter leaping in l4d1/2.
It really does remind me of the NS1 trickjumping videos. I just never really got into l4d1/2 much more than as a casual pubber.
From that video, it looks like a poor version of the movement in the hl1 vampire slayer mod.
Tane, who played competitive l4d between ns1 and ns2, has previously told me that the movement in l4d was stunted and boring compared to ns1, so yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that this example proves my point rather than yours.
I invite you to prove my claim wrong, though, I would be delighted to discover an actual piece of valuable innovation in movement mechanics.
I'd agree with Tane for all special infected except the hunter for these reasons:
I'm disappointed that the balance mod will disenfranchise a non-trivial portion of its already dwindling player base and further raise the barrier of entry to new players.
Changes to game mechanics disenfranchising players, oh my!
As for the repeated assertions that "balance mod will kill ns2!" from certain individuals in this thread: Somehow I don't think doing nothing while watching the player population steadily dwindle towards zero has a greater likelyhood of keeping the community afloat, than a significant update with exciting new features.
I think that Sewlek has done a good job with many aspects of the balance mod. Without getting bogged down in specifics, the balance mod is an overall improvement to vanilla NS2. But after 30-60 hours of play and many more hours of discussion, I can't get behind it. The balance mod has a few very controversial changes which ruin the overall experience for me.
If a few controversial changes, most of which don't alter the fundamentals of the game other than to add more options, is enough to drive you away from the game, I'm gonna go ahead and say that you didn't like it that much to begin with. I'm tempted to suggest that your threats of quitting the game is just a petulant tantrum, essentially translating to "either we play by my rules or we don't play at all!".
I've seen you argue vigorously against any change to armory armor heal, alien base movement, fade blink/shadowstep, medpacks, well, actually, I've seen you argue vigorously against pretty much any change to the game at all. At this point I don't think there's anything I can say to argue against you, because you've already made up your mind that any change is by definition bad. That being the case, the only reasonable action to take is simply to ignore you, as you are acting as a roadblock, preventing any progress.
I know some ex NS1 vets that played l4d1 competitively and neither of them had much good to say about the game in terms of skill based movement. The survivors were generally regarded as being too strong because of the lack of options as the SI, leaving it to configs to change the game into something actually playable.
From the stuff I had seen I would almost say there was more skill in playing a really good tank (always hitting rocks) than a hunter.
thelawenforcer, yeah I get what you mean but you have to realize a lot of NS1 players tested NS2 it came out and quite because of performance or gameplay problems. I won't lie, competitively NS2 was a joke back then. Only by going to direction of NS1, it finally became better competitively.
I don't think bringing skill-based movement will bring in players, but who knows, maybe with right marketing. My honest, and maybe pessimist view is that most of the damage is already done. It is hard to bring back players even if you fix the game to be many times better. Unfortunately.
I think skill-based movement and other cool stuff would have payed biggest dividends if they had been part of the game from day one. But it was just one issue among many others.
Personally, aliens are horridly boring without skill-based movement. Same goes for L4D2 although I consider it more of a party game.
My advice here is to trust judgement of players of better skill than yourself. We're poisoned with biases. I have meta-level concerns about most disagreements. This is rationality based on Bayes' theorem.
I treat his statement more as hyperbole because there have been some fun movement mechanics developed recently. Specifically, the hunter leaping in l4d1/2.
It really does remind me of the NS1 trickjumping videos. I just never really got into l4d1/2 much more than as a casual pubber.
From that video, it looks like a poor version of the movement in the hl1 vampire slayer mod.
Tane, who played competitive l4d between ns1 and ns2, has previously told me that the movement in l4d was stunted and boring compared to ns1, so yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that this example proves my point rather than yours.
I invite you to prove my claim wrong, though, I would be delighted to discover an actual piece of valuable innovation in movement mechanics.
As for my supposed hyperbole, let me show you what hyberbole really looks like:
I'm disappointed that the balance mod will disenfranchise a non-trivial portion of its already dwindling player base and further raise the barrier of entry to new players.
Changes to game mechanics disenfranchising players, oh my!
As for the repeated assertions that "balance mod will kill ns2!" from certain individuals in this thread: Somehow I don't think doing nothing while watching the player population steadily dwindle towards zero has a greater likelyhood of keeping the community afloat, than a significant update with exciting new features.
I think that Sewlek has done a good job with many aspects of the balance mod. Without getting bogged down in specifics, the balance mod is an overall improvement to vanilla NS2. But after 30-60 hours of play and many more hours of discussion, I can't get behind it. The balance mod has a few very controversial changes which ruin the overall experience for me.
If a few controversial changes, most of which don't alter the fundamentals of the game other than to add more options, is enough to drive you away from the game, I'm gonna go ahead and say that you didn't like it that much to begin with. I'm tempted to suggest that your threats of quitting the game is just a petulant tantrum, essentially translating to "either we play by my rules or we don't play at all!".
I've seen you argue vigorously against any change to armory armor heal, alien base movement, fade blink/shadowstep, medpacks, well, actually, I've seen you argue vigorously against pretty much any change to the game at all. At this point I don't think there's anything I can say to argue against you, because you've already made up your mind that any change is by definition bad. That being the case, the only reasonable action to take is simply to ignore you, as you are acting as a roadblock, preventing any progress.
There's no tantrum or hyperbole in my post. I simply posted my opinion. I'm aware that you can not comprehend why someone might disagree with you so I will decline a multiquote debate. I've seen enough outdated 9l links and fana self quotes to last me a lifetime.
Links to several L4D hunter videos (edited out because quote would be enormous, click link above to see post).
After watching those vids, it does seem more interesting than it looked like from the first vid, and not at all like the vampire slayer mod. I'm not sure if I'd call this a new movement mechanic, since it's basically a variation of walljumping, which has been around for a long time, but it does seem like an interesting implementation. It also has some potential applicability to ns2; I think the skulk leap could be cool if it was changed to be more like the l4d hunter from these videos, which would also further differentiate it from fade blink.
There's no tantrum or hyperbole in my post. I simply posted my opinion. I'm aware that you can not comprehend why someone might disagree with you so I will decline a multiquote debate. I've seen enough outdated 9l links and fana self quotes to last me a lifetime.
A new variation of GORGEous' favorite argument, repeated ad nauseum every time anyone suggests that there might be something to learn from past experiences: "this is ns2, if you say anything about ns1 I will put my fingers in my ears and start singing until you shut up", this time in the form of "outdated".
I'm sorry that you can't comprehend that there's a difference between acknowledging differences of opinion and not accepting what you're doing, which is essentially brick walling every gameplay mechanic discussion with different versions of "nope I don't like changes".
i never said anything about myself - but this is bound to happen to a certain extent. and it will have an impact that i thought it would be worth discussing.
theoretically, it's not bad to reward additional skill... but if you actually want to play games it is a disaster for small communities
quake / warsow / NS all have the problem of making fair teams, and are inactive primarily because that task is impossible given the realities of the player base and skill gap.
that isn't the bad thing though, because theoretical design vs. practicality is an opinion
the bad thing is random people who have a hidden agenda and want to include or exclude mechanics in order to gain an edge.
it's like all the traditional RTS games... whenever there's a balance patch and noobs start crying.
instead of saying "I relied on using X because I'm bad and it was overpowered. I don't like that you nerfed it"
they say "you're taking skill out of the game. stop designing for the noobs"
whether people are for or against skill-based movement doesn't matter... it's hard to take anyone seriously when they really just think in terms of "how would this game change so that I could be better at it?"
it's fine to think that way, but not everyone is honest about their motivations
still, it's ridiculous to think skill exists in isolation. if you reward one skill, you make another one less important.
it's zero sum... it's not like you're giving skulks a choice between hopping and something else and pleasing everyone
The people claiming that these changes are too big for the NS community to endure are being ridiculous. Natural Selection has a long and proud history of major releases with sweeping changes to game mechanics. NS 2.0 made arguably bigger changes to the game in about the same time frame after release, and the game did better than ever. Off the top of my head:
- Alien res system completely replaced - no longer did perma-gorges have a dedicated res pool, instead most of the team had to temp-gorge to drop structures
- Alien abilities completely re-worked. Lerk went from Bite/Spikes/Spores/Umbra to Spikes/Spores/Umbra/Primal Scream IIRC, Fade replaced teleport Blink with flying Blink, Onoses got devour, Gorges got bile bomb I think.
- Big JP and HMG nerfs
- Electrified structures
- Lots of tech tree changes
- Skulk bunnyhopping officially endorsed
And god knows what else. Turns out the community liked big changes. They liked it again in 3.0 and 3.1 and 3.2. NS2 has had its launch day media blitz, the transient casual players have come and gone, now it's time to do what's best for the game because it's best for the game. Rather than the fearful design-by-committee movement that's starting to grow on the forums, the devs just need to make the best game they can and have faith that the fans will stick around.
As for the person who suggested the dash movement.
If it includes bunnyhop it includes a gazilion keys simultanously and will not help folk like me who are maxed on motor skill control.
I like how open you are to the idea.
It's possible to do a dash jump with your mouse or keyboard alone. Effective use requires you to press one button and pogo jump (easy Q3 style jump timing) after that. I'd make the worst drummer in the world and I could execute the mechanical part with one hand behind my back and only being allowed to use two (or three, depending on the implementation) fingers to execute the jump. That's how motorically demanding the basic use is. I could teach it to my five year old nephew in two minutes.
If you expect to be top notch - yes, it's going to be hard unless you're willing to work a bit on your motor skills. I can't see many games where such stuff wouldn't be the case.
Should post this in the balance test thread but too lazy to switch on my icrap.
So i will repeat some stuff i said on the ensl forums be aware that this reflects my own experience and point of view.
1/ Movement
At the moment i don't really enjoy skulking on vanilla in term of map movement (point A to point BH is just this, a mean for skulks to move faster and sometimes* engage faster.
I like it but it feels broken, the walljumping especially. Wallhoping was allready a part of ns1, and i only saw the top of the top (ie: 10ish skulks at most) being able to use it with effectiveness in matches vods.
*it is VERY easy to track a bhopping skulk coming at you, and most players would switch to fast AD strafes when up close to burst bite you after a parasite.
So imo bhop wont really make pro skulks invincible. Keep in mind that bhopping takes a portion of your gamesense out since you move faster and focus on your jump timing, making you easily ambushed.
The fading to me didn't feel broken in term of movements and i feel and understand the frustration of really good fades, the ones capable of fighting jps sgs without blink, since they took the time to master shadow stepping.
Blink in ns2 is much easier and this makes the lifeform laughable to me when anyone can easily dominate a jp with it, making the fade explosion so viable in competitive games.
So putting the easymode movement as the first up for this lifeform is to me more a downgrade than an upgrade in term of skill ceiling.
I agree with jiriki and for the things i dont know or didn't test i ask experienced players about it, so as for the lerk Fana, king-yo, eissfeldt, gliss or other top lerks would give better info.
King told me that it feels kind of sluggish atm.
For marines i like the better jetpacks, but still hate the sprint wich really is useless in term of gameplay in ns2.
Upping a lil bit the base running speed and implementing a walk key would please me so much and would give much more depth to the first minutes of the rounds with marines sneaking and out-braining skulks.
2/ strategy
This is were i start disliking the balance mod.
I see a big fuss made about the different strats viable in it, well of all the rounds i played aliens still got cara first and the game was basically the same, defend 2 rts to lerks to fade explosion.
Sensories are still not viable and mcs give you a speed boost that is negligeable since you can bhop.
The drifters building rts is really bad imo as again like the fade it tries to repair something that was not really broken.
To me the focus is too much on the meta and not enough on the microgame, the balance mod makes the 2 races play in the same way breaking slowly what made ns so fun: totally assymetrical gameplays.
3/ performance
And here we go my 1st point of concern for this game as a whole.
We got lag everywhere, fps drops against multiple enemies and in the mid game as the infestation progresses, input lag that gets very noticeable once the fps drop, lag compensation and low tickrate lagging the registration on your screen.
So at that point do we really want a faster gameplay with faster units when sometimes you fullface a skulk with your sg, see the blood on your screen + the death sound cue and still fucking die 1s later from the same skulk's bite?
I like the BT mod and what it tries to accomplish but to me it over complicates the gameplay and should focus more on basic stuff, like movements and upgrades than new abilities and swiss army knives drifters.
My critic isn't complete and i'll be sure to play it more to try giving feedback.
PS: keep the lerk nerfd as an anti arc | Fana strat.
Comments
Yep, when I first played the mod my opinion was, this is different. After hours and hours of it I've grown to love it 2x more than the default game, heck it's the reason I launch up ns2 most of the time.. to hop into a bt server;
@Hugh
A lot does change, but not everything. I've had no issues seamlessly going from BT to vanilla game, because essentially it's the same CORE mechanic, nothing is changing there. Just how you GET there is what's changing, aka progression of the match. Just a quick 10 minute explanation to someone commanding BT for the first time will immediately understand, as for the movements those take a little while to grasp but adapting to them felt seamless and quite easy
this is 100% the most effective way to affect the course of the future of the mod/ns2. If you disagree (or agree!) with something, the movement, whatever - play the mod and then post about it here. Andi will read your feedback.
(just remember to be constructive about it and avoiding phrases like "this sucks" etc)
Okay this sentiment has been put forward a lot, but I have to take issue with this specifically.
In the last 20 years, there have been only a handful of games pitting ranged humanoids versus wall-walking creatures that fight mainly with melee.
Of this handful of games, there are very few that are played seriously in competition. NS1 and NS2, I would wager.
NS1 as we all know inherited Bhop from HL. As a mod, it made sense to go with bhop. It worked well for its time.
To my admittedly non-omnipotent knowledge, there have been no sincere efforts to create a new skill-based movement mechanic for a game involving wall-walking melee units versus ranged floor-based units.
This is a very important distinction. At no point in the last 20 years has anyone had the NEED to work on such a thing, as the vast majority of games have not been truly asymmetric, have not involved full 3D motion (as opposed to floor walking marines vs terrorists etc).
So I repeat my plea for originality and idea-making. There is no good reason why we should be hide-bound by past engines' foibles. What is needed, absolutely, is a skill-based movement system to keep the game fresh and competitive. But the argument that no-one has come up with anything better than an accidental bug in the HL engine is not really valid: they haven't had the need to try.
I argue that, with some thought, some modding, some trial and error, it should be perfectly possible for this community to develop one or two ideas - perhaps very different ideas - that can satisfy all of the criteria that people here are clamouring for.
Just how many people need to take part in this "outcry"? I am worried about a lot of the changes in BT as are many others. I posted ages ago about the dangers of catering mainly for the vocal forum minority and comp scene. This will alienate the majority of players and NS2 will end up like NS1 did. A few servers with elitist players who spend every round shouting abuse and scaring off all apart from their select little crowd from "their" game (this is why I stopped playing NS1).
Dont forget devs, that the majority are on the servers playing the game and the new players are trying hard to get to grips with it as it is. Most players never come to the forums as they are happy as it stands now.
There has been a lot of changes over the last three years. Some I agreed with and others I did not. The only really bad decision was giving the Lerk bile bomb and I have always trusted Charlie with every aspect of development as lead, especially balance and wish he still was in complete control of it.
As for the skulk movement, where have you been for the past 3 years? We have gone through so many iterations of skulk movement that even I have lost count, and I have played probably every single build of NS2 since alpha. Also, the bhop offer such a small benefit that its use is really a very small part of the movement picture, probably 5% at best.
I have over 1000 hours in the last 3 years (as I said in my post) and I have also played since the start, and am aware of the many changes (as I also stated in the last part of my post). I have also already stated what I do not like in the BT.
A lot of players are maybe not really interested in the BT and tbh I wonder how many of them even know about it. A fraction of any games community come on the forums. A lot of players are in for a massive shock if the majority of the test appears in game. They wont come here to complain, they will just stop playing.
Pfttt there was an entire thread on the armory change and a 4 pres welder is the best we got. Now most of those people are already gone. IN MY OPINION (just putting that in since many here consider their opinion facts and get flustered when someone disagrees) I played a few games and have been browsing the forum enough to know that if your feedback does not align with the goal and vision of the mod it will not be considered.
It really does remind me of the NS1 trickjumping videos. I just never really got into l4d1/2 much more than as a casual pubber.
To explain it succinctly, let me quote Colt (All-In) from earlier in the thread:
I think that Sewlek has done a good job with many aspects of the balance mod. Without getting bogged down in specifics, the balance mod is an overall improvement to vanilla NS2. But after 30-60 hours of play and many more hours of discussion, I can't get behind it. The balance mod has a few very controversial changes which ruin the overall experience for me.
I'm disappointed that the balance mod will disenfranchise a non-trivial portion of its already dwindling player base and further raise the barrier of entry to new players.
If you read it like that then hugh is right in saying they will not port BT over. They wont, they do perhaps a change or 2.
If you read it like that then Sqeel is also right for saying in the long run they want to implement BT.
As for the person who suggested the dash movement.
If it includes bunnyhop it includes a gazilion keys simultanously and will not help folk like me who are maxed on motor skill control.
Your phrased what I think as well. Sure the mod has a few changes that are good so you cannot say the entire thing is horribly bad for the game but it does not take many changes to ruin the game for some. In my case the skulk changes in 240 severely lowered enjoyability for me and that was just one change. The BT mod has a handful of similar changes that I can never get behind because like you said there are a few controversial changes that can ruin the experience for individuals. No point in getting into them because arguing about it comes down to subjective opinions most of the time that turns into petty arguments. So it is pretty much up to UWE or whoever makes the final choice to decide what is best for the game in the end so I hope it all works out.
The armor regen thing was a token gesture that I am glad to see go. The end result is what matters. So I guess it is a waiting game to see what the final product will be if you say it is still up for debate. With the huge list of changes some will never even be properly discussed so I am just waiting to see what makes it in to have a clearer view of what exactly is going on.
Tane, who played competitive l4d between ns1 and ns2, has previously told me that the movement in l4d was stunted and boring compared to ns1, so yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that this example proves my point rather than yours.
I invite you to prove my claim wrong, though, I would be delighted to discover an actual piece of valuable innovation in movement mechanics.
As for my supposed hyperbole, let me show you what hyberbole really looks like: Changes to game mechanics disenfranchising players, oh my!
As for the repeated assertions that "balance mod will kill ns2!" from certain individuals in this thread: Somehow I don't think doing nothing while watching the player population steadily dwindle towards zero has a greater likelyhood of keeping the community afloat, than a significant update with exciting new features.
If a few controversial changes, most of which don't alter the fundamentals of the game other than to add more options, is enough to drive you away from the game, I'm gonna go ahead and say that you didn't like it that much to begin with. I'm tempted to suggest that your threats of quitting the game is just a petulant tantrum, essentially translating to "either we play by my rules or we don't play at all!".
I've seen you argue vigorously against any change to armory armor heal, alien base movement, fade blink/shadowstep, medpacks, well, actually, I've seen you argue vigorously against pretty much any change to the game at all. At this point I don't think there's anything I can say to argue against you, because you've already made up your mind that any change is by definition bad. That being the case, the only reasonable action to take is simply to ignore you, as you are acting as a roadblock, preventing any progress.
Wouldn't it be funny if some random dude started arguing about ice hockey mechanics with Wayne Gretzky.
That is what this when I see Fana, Tane or b1 talk with you about these things.
Too many people have ego investment in their opinions and can't just say: "okay I'm not skilled enough to talk about these things". There's no shame, even I trust their judgement over mine because they are better, and more achieved players than I am. I have come to learn this, sometimes the hard way in NS1 when I played with them.
I must say I'm delighted by NS2 devs pushing for some form of skill-based movement. UWE, as small studio have done many smart things that many big companies fail to do. By pushing for skill-based movement they are going against the flow of mainstream games and investing in something that can pay off. Its refreshing. I will not lie, and I will say there are risks associated. I think the bigger risks do not come from bhop itself but the fact that the better the game gets, bigger the skill gap between best and the worst, and thus more stomp games unless there is some kind of system that takes care of uneven teams. This was underrated problem in NS1. Someone like Tane in NS1 could slaughter a team of noobs alone.
But I repeat what I said before, getting awesome game is never about getting one thing right. Its about getting many, many things right. NS1 was awesome because it happened to get so many things right. In my opinion, listen to people like Fana, who in more efficient world should be charging a hourly rate for all this advice, and NS2 will be a better game. It is the most simplest yet most effective advice I could give. Since something is happening, maybe you already are, so don't take this the wrong way.
It would be shame if skill-based movement would be dropped because any of these inane arguments in this thread. NS1 stayed alive super long because it had so much competitive depth compared to what else was on the market. Even the public players need to understand this. Failing to understand these things will result in AVP3 scenario.
I think too many people get stuck in this "competitive vs public" thing and think its a zero-sum game, when in fact its not. There are many things that benefit everyone even though it does not seem so prima facie.
Roobubba: Even ranged vs ranged benefits from skill-based movement. Warsow is a great example. In my opinion it adds depth to any FPS game. In fact, to compete with the greats of the past such as Q3CPMA, you need to have a skill-based movement. The lack of skill-based movement is reason why most modern FPS'es are boring.
ScardyBob: I think I talked with Tane some time ago about skill-based movements and L4D2 came up. He said that its pretty decent but not much compared to bhop.
touche
From the stuff I had seen I would almost say there was more skill in playing a really good tank (always hitting rocks) than a hunter.
I don't think bringing skill-based movement will bring in players, but who knows, maybe with right marketing. My honest, and maybe pessimist view is that most of the damage is already done. It is hard to bring back players even if you fix the game to be many times better. Unfortunately.
I think skill-based movement and other cool stuff would have payed biggest dividends if they had been part of the game from day one. But it was just one issue among many others.
Personally, aliens are horridly boring without skill-based movement. Same goes for L4D2 although I consider it more of a party game.
My advice here is to trust judgement of players of better skill than yourself. We're poisoned with biases. I have meta-level concerns about most disagreements. This is rationality based on Bayes' theorem.
L4d2 movies look boring, now lets go to defrag.
There's no tantrum or hyperbole in my post. I simply posted my opinion. I'm aware that you can not comprehend why someone might disagree with you so I will decline a multiquote debate. I've seen enough outdated 9l links and fana self quotes to last me a lifetime.
A new variation of GORGEous' favorite argument, repeated ad nauseum every time anyone suggests that there might be something to learn from past experiences: "this is ns2, if you say anything about ns1 I will put my fingers in my ears and start singing until you shut up", this time in the form of "outdated".
I'm sorry that you can't comprehend that there's a difference between acknowledging differences of opinion and not accepting what you're doing, which is essentially brick walling every gameplay mechanic discussion with different versions of "nope I don't like changes".
Concern troll is concerned.
quake / warsow / NS all have the problem of making fair teams, and are inactive primarily because that task is impossible given the realities of the player base and skill gap.
that isn't the bad thing though, because theoretical design vs. practicality is an opinion
the bad thing is random people who have a hidden agenda and want to include or exclude mechanics in order to gain an edge.
it's like all the traditional RTS games... whenever there's a balance patch and noobs start crying.
instead of saying "I relied on using X because I'm bad and it was overpowered. I don't like that you nerfed it"
they say "you're taking skill out of the game. stop designing for the noobs"
whether people are for or against skill-based movement doesn't matter... it's hard to take anyone seriously when they really just think in terms of "how would this game change so that I could be better at it?"
it's fine to think that way, but not everyone is honest about their motivations
still, it's ridiculous to think skill exists in isolation. if you reward one skill, you make another one less important.
it's zero sum... it's not like you're giving skulks a choice between hopping and something else and pleasing everyone
- Alien res system completely replaced - no longer did perma-gorges have a dedicated res pool, instead most of the team had to temp-gorge to drop structures
- Alien abilities completely re-worked. Lerk went from Bite/Spikes/Spores/Umbra to Spikes/Spores/Umbra/Primal Scream IIRC, Fade replaced teleport Blink with flying Blink, Onoses got devour, Gorges got bile bomb I think.
- Big JP and HMG nerfs
- Electrified structures
- Lots of tech tree changes
- Skulk bunnyhopping officially endorsed
And god knows what else. Turns out the community liked big changes. They liked it again in 3.0 and 3.1 and 3.2. NS2 has had its launch day media blitz, the transient casual players have come and gone, now it's time to do what's best for the game because it's best for the game. Rather than the fearful design-by-committee movement that's starting to grow on the forums, the devs just need to make the best game they can and have faith that the fans will stick around.
It's possible to do a dash jump with your mouse or keyboard alone. Effective use requires you to press one button and pogo jump (easy Q3 style jump timing) after that. I'd make the worst drummer in the world and I could execute the mechanical part with one hand behind my back and only being allowed to use two (or three, depending on the implementation) fingers to execute the jump. That's how motorically demanding the basic use is. I could teach it to my five year old nephew in two minutes.
If you expect to be top notch - yes, it's going to be hard unless you're willing to work a bit on your motor skills. I can't see many games where such stuff wouldn't be the case.
So i will repeat some stuff i said on the ensl forums be aware that this reflects my own experience and point of view.
1/ Movement
At the moment i don't really enjoy skulking on vanilla in term of map movement (point A to point
I like it but it feels broken, the walljumping especially. Wallhoping was allready a part of ns1, and i only saw the top of the top (ie: 10ish skulks at most) being able to use it with effectiveness in matches vods.
*it is VERY easy to track a bhopping skulk coming at you, and most players would switch to fast AD strafes when up close to burst bite you after a parasite.
So imo bhop wont really make pro skulks invincible. Keep in mind that bhopping takes a portion of your gamesense out since you move faster and focus on your jump timing, making you easily ambushed.
The fading to me didn't feel broken in term of movements and i feel and understand the frustration of really good fades, the ones capable of fighting jps sgs without blink, since they took the time to master shadow stepping.
Blink in ns2 is much easier and this makes the lifeform laughable to me when anyone can easily dominate a jp with it, making the fade explosion so viable in competitive games.
So putting the easymode movement as the first up for this lifeform is to me more a downgrade than an upgrade in term of skill ceiling.
I agree with jiriki and for the things i dont know or didn't test i ask experienced players about it, so as for the lerk Fana, king-yo, eissfeldt, gliss or other top lerks would give better info.
King told me that it feels kind of sluggish atm.
For marines i like the better jetpacks, but still hate the sprint wich really is useless in term of gameplay in ns2.
Upping a lil bit the base running speed and implementing a walk key would please me so much and would give much more depth to the first minutes of the rounds with marines sneaking and out-braining skulks.
2/ strategy
This is were i start disliking the balance mod.
I see a big fuss made about the different strats viable in it, well of all the rounds i played aliens still got cara first and the game was basically the same, defend 2 rts to lerks to fade explosion.
Sensories are still not viable and mcs give you a speed boost that is negligeable since you can bhop.
The drifters building rts is really bad imo as again like the fade it tries to repair something that was not really broken.
To me the focus is too much on the meta and not enough on the microgame, the balance mod makes the 2 races play in the same way breaking slowly what made ns so fun: totally assymetrical gameplays.
3/ performance
And here we go my 1st point of concern for this game as a whole.
We got lag everywhere, fps drops against multiple enemies and in the mid game as the infestation progresses, input lag that gets very noticeable once the fps drop, lag compensation and low tickrate lagging the registration on your screen.
So at that point do we really want a faster gameplay with faster units when sometimes you fullface a skulk with your sg, see the blood on your screen + the death sound cue and still fucking die 1s later from the same skulk's bite?
I like the BT mod and what it tries to accomplish but to me it over complicates the gameplay and should focus more on basic stuff, like movements and upgrades than new abilities and swiss army knives drifters.
My critic isn't complete and i'll be sure to play it more to try giving feedback.
PS: keep the lerk nerfd as an anti arc | Fana strat.