I have one question to ask: What is the purpose of that "hold space to bounce" mechanic? I haven't seen any difference in doing it and normally jumping when you hit the ground, other than it feels awkward and unnatural.
So, any ideas why it was even implemented when it really has no apparent purpose?
If you master it you get perfect walljump timings with it and therefore best speeds with the correct angle.
If you do not jump as soon as you touch the ground, you cannot preserve your speed because of ground friction. Hold space to bounce does 2 things
1) Eliminates the need for a jump macro, or scroll wheel jumping etc. These things are not accessible for new players. Sure you can still jump macro, but there's really not much need to do so.
2) Makes jumping more accessible and easier for new players to master, so they can focus on more interesting and important things. Basically, removing 'skill' where it is deemed unhealthy, unintuitive, and unnecessary.
Lovin the new patch btw .. bit confussing when you go alien commander for the first cpl of times
It's not obvious where to upgrade alien abilities (bilebomb etc) .. and I dont think there's an obvious 'you're researched level 1 regen+carapace!' when you drop a shell (or lvl 2, lvl 3(max) regen+carapace) etc.
I could fully understand a new alien commander going a full game without having researched anything properly (my first time using new patch, I did manage to .. although it was only by chance that I saw it when I dropped a craig)
The game feels much more like team deathmatch now, with strategic decisions and victories (like securing a tech point) mattering less.
"We just lost that battle which might be crucial in 249? Whatever, we'll just do something else. Let's just get a Ninja PG somewhere instead... or wait for our one base Exo train."
It's more like TDM with added buildings now.
Especially the Alien side seems more linear. Hive upgrade choice matters less, Crags/Shifts/Shades don't even need an upgraded Hive, the strange layered evolutions (nobody ever said "oh no, we only have carapace level 2, we need carapace level 3 fast!"), the biomass slow scaling. The biggest choice the Alien comm has is to decide which upgrades to get when money is low (otherwise they just get them in order the biomass allows them). Everything else is up to how players fight and organize.
It's not hard to see how this lack of "discrete" differences makes the game bubble along more homogenously, instead of showing notable differences (like you immediately noticed when Skulks got fast Carapace or something).
Maybe this is what UWE mean when they said "NS1 was a RTS first, NS2 will be an FPS first"?
You vs. more than 2 Marines ? Better run away. A jetpacker with SG? Better run away. Exos? GTFO (unless you have tons of support and can overrun a group of Marines).
They just die so fast now, you have to be ultra careful.
They are hardly useful for base sieges as they get focused and then you have a dead Onos for nothing.
I wouldn't know a situation where I think the new Onos is worth the res - 2 evolutions for 76 res (standard)? 84 res for Onos with everything? What for? Not worth it! Maybe when you have 3 of them to prevent focusing...
An Exo with 2+ Marines is a notable group and can advance on an Alien position nicely. An Onos with a heal Gorge and maybe 2 Skulks? The Onos gets focused down quickly, and that's it.
You can't have a melee tank unit that does not work as a tank
Evolutions are now scaled (not available or 3 levels depending on number of shells/spurs/veils), and evolutions cost money for players (except Skulk).
So: why does getting a level 1 evolution cost as much as a level 3 evolution? The price should be less for lower levels.
Related: why can't one mix upgrade spots? Choose "2 Celerities and one Adrenaline" for the Spur spot?
I think the entire layered evolution thing makes no sense, to be honest. Either you have one, or you don't.
For example, what is the difference between level 1 Phantom and level 3 Phantom? I certainly can't say.
Does anybody notice the difference between level 2 Celerity and level 3 Celerity?
Why do Aliens lose their evolutions when the upgrade structure dies? What was wrong with the old system (evos stay, but are no longer available for new evolves)?
What's the consideration behind the new system?
Exos are TOO fast.
When even the welding Marine can't keep up with the Exo, something is fishy.
I've read somewhere that supply limit would scale with number of bases built. But it's constant. And it's really bad, it means doesn't matter how much of the map you own, you are going to have only such amount of armories and arcs to support a push. I'm not even talking about pushes from 2 sides here.
You vs. more than 2 Marines ? Better run away. A jetpacker with SG? Better run away. Exos? GTFO (unless you have tons of support and can overrun a group of Marines).
They just die so fast now, you have to be ultra careful.
They are hardly useful for base sieges as they get focused and then you have a dead Onos for nothing.
I wouldn't know a situation where I think the new Onos is worth the res - 2 evolutions for 76 res (standard)? 84 res for Onos with everything? What for? Not worth it! Maybe when you have 3 of them to prevent focusing...
An Exo with 2+ Marines is a notable group and can advance on an Alien position nicely. An Onos with a heal Gorge and maybe 2 Skulks? The Onos gets focused down quickly, and that's it.
You can't have a melee tank unit that does not work as a tank
Yeh I'm finding exos and onos seem to of switched places a little bit. Pre 250 onos was clearly a big win, exos were a little bit meh unless you could mass them up. Post 250 exos are much better but onos a bit meh unless you mass them up. I think all that needs fixing is to increase the exo cost again, marines can reach a point where losing exos isn't that big of a deal anymore because they're so much cheaper.
Evolutions are now scaled (not available or 3 levels depending on number of shells/spurs/veils), and evolutions cost money for players (except Skulk).
So: why does getting a level 1 evolution cost as much as a level 3 evolution? The price should be less for lower levels.
Related: why can't one mix upgrade spots? Choose "2 Celerities and one Adrenaline" for the Spur spot?
I think the entire layered evolution thing makes no sense, to be honest. Either you have one, or you don't.
For example, what is the difference between level 1 Phantom and level 3 Phantom? I certainly can't say.
Does anybody notice the difference between level 2 Celerity and level 3 Celerity?
I think for someone from NS1 the new upgrade system makes sense (because it's the same as NS1!), but I like the idea of paying for each level and being able to mix it up. You would have to reduce the upgrade costs about 1/3 but being able to pick and mix upgrades would be a lot of fun.
Why do Aliens lose their evolutions when the upgrade structure dies? What was wrong with the old system (evos stay, but are no longer available for new evolves)?
What's the consideration behind the new system?
Don't marines lose their upgrades if all the arms labs are taken out? If they do then I think this is fair.
The game feels much more like team deathmatch now, with strategic decisions and victories (like securing a tech point) mattering less.
"We just lost that battle which might be crucial in 249? Whatever, we'll just do something else. Let's just get a Ninja PG somewhere instead... or wait for our one base Exo train."
It's more like TDM with added buildings now.
Especially the Alien side seems more linear. Hive upgrade choice matters less, Crags/Shifts/Shades don't even need an upgraded Hive, the strange layered evolutions (nobody ever said "oh no, we only have carapace level 2, we need carapace level 3 fast!"), the biomass slow scaling. The biggest choice the Alien comm has is to decide which upgrades to get when money is low (otherwise they just get them in order the biomass allows them). Everything else is up to how players fight and organize.
It's not hard to see how this lack of "discrete" differences makes the game bubble along more homogenously, instead of showing notable differences (like you immediately noticed when Skulks got fast Carapace or something).
It's less about gaining/losing tech points for marines, as it is about denying tech points for aliens.
Single exos aren't terribly effective. If aliens have the whole map, they'll have the res to drop onos eggs to storm the base like b249, whips to stop sneaky marines/exo pushes, biomass for more HP to storm the base... Marine's strategic decisions are now a hell of a lot more offensive.
For example you noted that there are 3 shells. Each shell now costs 20 instead of 15(and 15 for the cara upgrade) so you can do even more damage to the aliens resources by killing them! Also by killing them their lifeforms lose carapace/regen but maybe you want to kill their crags so they lose bilebomb, or perhaps you're going on a routine resource tower genocide to screw the alien economy over.
People need to realise that for marines, it's not about getting 2 tech points and turtling until you have dual exos + A3 + W3 + JPs and everything else. It has always been the case that you pressure early to disrupt the alien economy, upgrades, hive expansions etc etc.
Aliens are not more linear. Sure hive choice doesn't restrict crag/shift/shade, but these buildings are still expensive! So you'll see them being used sparingly/cleverly and if they die, that can be a big blow in terms of resources.
The layered evolutions was to stop the 1 minute omg so strong skulks and to scale them through the game. It is also to give a little bit more of a res sink to aliens because they had such a lower cost tech tree than marines.
Biomass hp scaling wasn't supposed to be game breaking by making aliens super strong, it's to give slight additional health in response to relatively large weapons upgrades of the marines. It's also an incentive for marines to deny these tech points (marine decisions?? crucial b249 engagements??). It's also another res sink.
For the most part of the game, it is about how players fight and organize. It's an rts / FPS (FIRST PERSON SHOOTER) hybrid. You've literally gone and said "This new pizza is simple, you have a base made up of a different dough and a different stuffed crust. Everything else that makes this pizza is up to the toppings."
"bubble along more homogenously" - I don't think you know what this word means, correct me if I'm wrong but I think you mean to say that the changes makes the game scale more flowingly. This is good in terms of balance because you don't want to see these 1 minute 100% carapace skulks owning the early game forcing a quick arms lab to get that armor/weapons upgrades out early. You want to open all tech routes!!
It's less about gaining/losing tech points for marines, as it is about denying tech points for aliens.
Yes, but that has been like this since 240. Aliens usually held 2 TP and the game was often "decided" whether they were strong enough to get the 3rd one.
If aliens have the whole map, they'll have the res to drop onos eggs to storm the base like b249, whips to stop sneaky marines/exo pushes, biomass for more HP to storm the base... Marine's strategic decisions are now a hell of a lot more offensive.
When they already won, they can do all kinds of nice stuff. Problem is before that point, like with the Exos.
For example you noted that there are 3 shells. Each shell now costs 20 instead of 15(and 15 for the cara upgrade) so you can do even more damage to the aliens resources by killing them! Also by killing them their lifeforms lose carapace/regen but maybe you want to kill their crags so they lose bilebomb, or perhaps you're going on a routine resource tower genocide to screw the alien economy over.
Ok, more stuff for Marines to kill to damage Aliens.
People need to realise that for marines, it's not about getting 2 tech points and turtling until you have dual exos + A3 + W3 + JPs and everything else. It has always been the case that you pressure early to disrupt the alien economy, upgrades, hive expansions etc etc.
Aliens are not more linear. Sure hive choice doesn't restrict crag/shift/shade, but these buildings are still expensive! So you'll see them being used sparingly/cleverly and if they die, that can be a big blow in terms of resources.
You can't really defend them. Either you put them next to the Hive for safety, or they can easily die on the frontline (like Crags) and "saving" them would essentially mean wining a battle you just lost.
So basically it's another res sink.
The layered evolutions was to stop the 1 minute omg so strong skulks and to scale them through the game. It is also to give a little bit more of a res sink to aliens because they had such a lower cost tech tree than marines.
Biomass hp scaling wasn't supposed to be game breaking by making aliens super strong, it's to give slight additional health in response to relatively large weapons upgrades of the marines. It's also an incentive for marines to deny these tech points (marine decisions?? crucial b249 engagements??). It's also another res sink.
For the most part of the game, it is about how players fight and organize. It's an rts / FPS (FIRST PERSON SHOOTER) hybrid. You've literally gone and said "This new pizza is simple, you have a base made up of a different dough and a different stuffed crust. Everything else that makes this pizza is up to the toppings."
"bubble along more homogenously" - I don't think you know what this word means, correct me if I'm wrong but I think you mean to say that the changes makes the game scale more flowingly. This is good in terms of balance because you don't want to see these 1 minute 100% carapace skulks owning the early game forcing a quick arms lab to get that armor/weapons upgrades out early. You want to open all tech routes!!
I think there are too many choices with too few real consequences. If you say, maybe go for the Harvester, maybe kill an evo building, or maybe get that Crag, that's a bit too arbitrary. There should be a "right" strategic choice for each situation.
For me, it seems now it's "just cost them money, whatever way you like, shoot lifeforms, doesn't matter really much" which is what I meant by "bubble along homogenously". Or on the defending side, "just defend our stuff so I don't have to replace it".
The main thing the Khamm can do wrong now is "waste money" instead of getting more upgrades/biomass/whatever.
From the games I played, NS2 now seems to be less about strategy than before (like: "let's hold this part of the map and pressure this thing here, I'll get you quick bile bomb/adren/whatever", or risk something and get a Shift somewhere and spam expensive eggs), and is more like fancy TDM with buildings and upgrades and a resource system.
The entire "Aliens got these upgrades, we have to react specifically" part is reduced.
Maybe it's a bit too fluid to my liking.
And maybe this is exactly what UWE wanted, idk.
We'll see what the future brings I haven't decided 250 is bad or anything, just giving impressions.
I like the skulk movement. It's easy to pick up and pull off wall jumps, easy to keep speed up and be creative in jumping wall to wall in combat.
The lerk feels strange....like a fighter jet
Don't like fade movement one bit. Stopped playing it altogether now. I feel it's too restrictive in how you have to play it a certain way to be any use. Or maybe it's just there's no tutorial or even tool tips and I'm clueless :P
Gorge is nice to play, its heal spray can reach further which helps building. Babblers at 1 res per egg are too expensive for what they (don't) do.
I'm generally OK with the cost of units and items on both sides.
Have to say as a marine I find it easier than ever to kill skulks. They may be new players or it could be improved performance.
It's okay to dislike the changes, if you have actually tried them out and given them a fair chance. But so many of the people here are saying "I just played 30 minutes of 250 and it didn't work like it used to! I hate it! UWE killed this game!" You can't go into a drastically different build and expect to instantly understand anything.
I think the entire layered evolution thing makes no sense, to be honest. Either you have one, or you don't.
For example, what is the difference between level 1 Phantom and level 3 Phantom? I certainly can't say.
Does anybody notice the difference between level 2 Celerity and level 3 Celerity?
Level 1 Phantom is just camo, level 2 is camo and you aren't as loud, and level 3 you have camo and full blown silence.
I have noticed a speed difference between level 2 and 3 celerity, but with spurs the more obvious differences between levels is shown in adrenaline.
But I think it's fair to expect the devs to explain how to play the game once they've dramatically changed parts of it
Of course. I actually made a thread lamenting how terrible of a job UWE did of explaining these changes to the playerbase. If they had shown a little more effort we probably wouldn't have as many people complaining.
The new energy-efficient movement is jump, briefly Blink while in the air, then hold the jump key each time before you land again. Repeat the Blink boost as necessary.
You realize that SS isn't gone? They just switched places, alien comm needs to research SS now. And of course, to be a "complete" Fade, you need both... Fade wasn't complete without Blink in pre-250 either. So it pretty much evens out.
That new energy efficient efficient method is so obscure I would have never have figured it out without someone telling it to me. This is another thing wrong with 250. The devs just assume people will know these things right off the bat. Instead of making a critical method of movement natural they rely on a weird obscure method in an attempt to artificially inflate the skill curve. It's just like how bunnyhopping is really a logical error in physics code.
Pre-250 Fade was perfectly viable without Blink. Not having Blink made you less effective at dodging but you could still dodge most attacks with well timed Shadowsteps and Shadowstep jumps. Now you need to use Blink in order to dodge which burns through your energy in a snap.
As has been pointed out, you're using blink the wrong way. It was a viable option to go celerity fade before the patch and it still is. I never run out of energy, even without adren. Just tap blink every few seconds, bhop and don't engage in combat for longer than a few milliseconds until shadowstep is researched. Once SS is out the only thing the fade can't do anymore is double jump. Instead he's now much faster and much easier to maneuver around the map.
Also, because you had to throw in your (adorable, bet it was on a rookie server) K/D. Fade is anti-marine still, but not so much in the killing bussiness than in the wounding business now. When I play fade without SS I usualy blink in get one or two swipes in while the marines try to adjust their aim on me and let a skulk or lerk do the rest while the marines are distracted. So my K/D has gone down, but my overal effectiveness hasn't.
So what you're saying is that Fade is effectively useless. The whole point of a Fade was to be an assassin. Fades were the anti-personnel choice of the Aliens. Now all they are good at is slapping Marines around and wheezing around?
Don't even get me started about bunnyhopping. Bunnyhopping is a logical error in the physics code. It should not exist. Basing a core gameplay mechanic on a logical error is insane.
Yeah, most of the people there were rookies. If I had gone up against any proper opponents I would have died instantly. That was the point I was trying to make. Fade is useless now.
That new energy efficient efficient method is so obscure I would have never have figured it out without someone telling it to me. This is another thing wrong with 250. The devs just assume people will know these things right off the bat. Instead of making a critical method of movement natural they rely on a weird obscure method in an attempt to artificially inflate the skill curve. It's just like how bunnyhopping is really a logical error in physics code.
As obscure as shadowstepping and jumping before you lose the momentum so it ignores air friction? Unlikely.
Psst. It's not bunnyhopping. You don't gain speed by using air acceleration (ie bhop), you merely hop to avoid ground friction.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2013
@hozz lessening the rts impact has been a popular request that I agree with and historically a topic that pops up in these forums about 3 times a month. Many problems arise from rts elements having too large of an impact. (most notably being able to tell who will win in the first 4 minutes, and then being unable to change it .)
That new energy efficient efficient method is so obscure I would have never have figured it out without someone telling it to me. This is another thing wrong with 250. The devs just assume people will know these things right off the bat. Instead of making a critical method of movement natural they rely on a weird obscure method in an attempt to artificially inflate the skill curve. It's just like how bunnyhopping is really a logical error in physics code.
As obscure as shadowstepping and jumping before you lose the momentum so it ignores air friction? Unlikely.
Psst. It's not bunnyhopping. You don't gain speed by using air acceleration (ie bhop), you merely hop to avoid ground friction.
You do gain speed, not via air acceleration, but via A/D strafing that you do while bunnyhopping. It's quite easy to notice as a Fade, works with Skulks too, but it's ridiculously small for them. (Making it way hard to learn unfortunately.)
I'm just wondering what Shadowstep is for right now? I mean sure it's great for, hmm, back and forth swiping passes against an SG marine, maybe...? Then again it's 15 res the comm can use on something else...
That new energy efficient efficient method is so obscure I would have never have figured it out without someone telling it to me. This is another thing wrong with 250. The devs just assume people will know these things right off the bat. Instead of making a critical method of movement natural they rely on a weird obscure method in an attempt to artificially inflate the skill curve. It's just like how bunnyhopping is really a logical error in physics code.
As obscure as shadowstepping and jumping before you lose the momentum so it ignores air friction? Unlikely.
Psst. It's not bunnyhopping. You don't gain speed by using air acceleration (ie bhop), you merely hop to avoid ground friction.
You do gain speed, not via air acceleration, but via A/D strafing that you do while bunnyhopping. It's quite easy to notice as a Fade, works with Skulks too, but it's ridiculously small for them. (Making it way hard to learn unfortunately.)
I'm just wondering what Shadowstep is for right now? I mean sure it's great for, hmm, back and forth swiping passes against an SG marine, maybe...? Then again it's 15 res the comm can use on something else...
Just checked on fade with debug speed and you are right but the gain is meager at best. It worked out to about a .15 gain is speed every strafe jump and if you are using just that to gain speed you are doing it wrong. With blink you can instantly jump to 15ish and with just timed jumps (no A/D strafe or mouse movements) you can hold 14+ easily. I'd still say calling this bunnyhop is disingenuous. /shrug
edit: Even with A/D strafe jumping + blink you will never outpace the top speed given by blink. (this is all sans celerity)
Yeah, I know. Will still do it to maintain speed without blinks, though.
I didn't know you can't beat the blink max speed with strafe. That's really dumb to be honest. The whole business with A/D strafing smells just like walljumping pre 250 did - a bordering useless feature that's just there to be there but way too scary to be made anything useful out of.
Start ns2, from the main menu type map ns2_summit in the console (~ key)
When you're in the ready room type cheats 1 in the console
Then type J2 and then fade, and finally type debugspeed.
Now.. try to only tap blink and use the spacebar around the map.. you'll notice ~14.5- 15.5 speeds
Now try to beat those speeds by consistently holding even 1 point faster, 16.5 (which btw would only be a 6% gain) using A/D strafing.
Maybe i just suck at it, but i can't even accomplish holding said measly 6% gain in speed... so i have a hard time when people make it sound like strafing is needed for speed in the new movement system. :-/
Yeah, I know. Will still do it to maintain speed without blinks, though.
I didn't know you can't beat the blink max speed with strafe. That's really dumb to be honest. The whole business with A/D strafing smells just like walljumping pre 250 did - a bordering useless feature that's just there to be there but way too scary to be made anything useful out of.
You probably could on a downward slope. I was testing this in tram tunnel since it is the longest flat area where elevation changes wouldn't cause unnecessary speed drops. Just strafe jumping it took me the length of the tunnel to hit 11.25 speed which is super impractical.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2013
I think its a good thing strafing isn't required.. its best to keep input and controls simple, but the actual meta game/intricacies of moving and positioning as the important part .. this provides an easy to learn difficult to master mechanic imo.
A player should be focused on learning how to play the game, not the controls
Thanks for the guide, I would have asked for it in a moment.
I try not to sound like I'm making a point about what's needed and what's not. People just tend to push the discussion that way. I'm just interested about what is and what isn't. So yeah, the only benefit from occasional A/D strafing would be the occasional saved blink. Depending on how hard A/D strafing is, everyone can evaluate its worth on their own. (10% saved energy woot!) I'd just use it because it's fun.
Comments
If you master it you get perfect walljump timings with it and therefore best speeds with the correct angle.
1) Eliminates the need for a jump macro, or scroll wheel jumping etc. These things are not accessible for new players. Sure you can still jump macro, but there's really not much need to do so.
2) Makes jumping more accessible and easier for new players to master, so they can focus on more interesting and important things. Basically, removing 'skill' where it is deemed unhealthy, unintuitive, and unnecessary.
It's not obvious where to upgrade alien abilities (bilebomb etc) .. and I dont think there's an obvious 'you're researched level 1 regen+carapace!' when you drop a shell (or lvl 2, lvl 3(max) regen+carapace) etc.
I could fully understand a new alien commander going a full game without having researched anything properly (my first time using new patch, I did manage to .. although it was only by chance that I saw it when I dropped a craig)
He has a point.
The game feels much more like team deathmatch now, with strategic decisions and victories (like securing a tech point) mattering less.
"We just lost that battle which might be crucial in 249? Whatever, we'll just do something else. Let's just get a Ninja PG somewhere instead... or wait for our one base Exo train."
It's more like TDM with added buildings now.
Especially the Alien side seems more linear. Hive upgrade choice matters less, Crags/Shifts/Shades don't even need an upgraded Hive, the strange layered evolutions (nobody ever said "oh no, we only have carapace level 2, we need carapace level 3 fast!"), the biomass slow scaling. The biggest choice the Alien comm has is to decide which upgrades to get when money is low (otherwise they just get them in order the biomass allows them). Everything else is up to how players fight and organize.
It's not hard to see how this lack of "discrete" differences makes the game bubble along more homogenously, instead of showing notable differences (like you immediately noticed when Skulks got fast Carapace or something).
Maybe this is what UWE mean when they said "NS1 was a RTS first, NS2 will be an FPS first"?
You vs. more than 2 Marines ? Better run away. A jetpacker with SG? Better run away. Exos? GTFO (unless you have tons of support and can overrun a group of Marines).
They just die so fast now, you have to be ultra careful.
They are hardly useful for base sieges as they get focused and then you have a dead Onos for nothing.
I wouldn't know a situation where I think the new Onos is worth the res - 2 evolutions for 76 res (standard)? 84 res for Onos with everything? What for? Not worth it! Maybe when you have 3 of them to prevent focusing...
An Exo with 2+ Marines is a notable group and can advance on an Alien position nicely. An Onos with a heal Gorge and maybe 2 Skulks? The Onos gets focused down quickly, and that's it.
You can't have a melee tank unit that does not work as a tank
So: why does getting a level 1 evolution cost as much as a level 3 evolution? The price should be less for lower levels.
Related: why can't one mix upgrade spots? Choose "2 Celerities and one Adrenaline" for the Spur spot?
I think the entire layered evolution thing makes no sense, to be honest. Either you have one, or you don't.
For example, what is the difference between level 1 Phantom and level 3 Phantom? I certainly can't say.
Does anybody notice the difference between level 2 Celerity and level 3 Celerity?
What's the consideration behind the new system?
When even the welding Marine can't keep up with the Exo, something is fishy.
Yeh I'm finding exos and onos seem to of switched places a little bit. Pre 250 onos was clearly a big win, exos were a little bit meh unless you could mass them up. Post 250 exos are much better but onos a bit meh unless you mass them up. I think all that needs fixing is to increase the exo cost again, marines can reach a point where losing exos isn't that big of a deal anymore because they're so much cheaper.
I think for someone from NS1 the new upgrade system makes sense (because it's the same as NS1!), but I like the idea of paying for each level and being able to mix it up. You would have to reduce the upgrade costs about 1/3 but being able to pick and mix upgrades would be a lot of fun.
Don't marines lose their upgrades if all the arms labs are taken out? If they do then I think this is fair.
It's less about gaining/losing tech points for marines, as it is about denying tech points for aliens.
Single exos aren't terribly effective. If aliens have the whole map, they'll have the res to drop onos eggs to storm the base like b249, whips to stop sneaky marines/exo pushes, biomass for more HP to storm the base... Marine's strategic decisions are now a hell of a lot more offensive.
For example you noted that there are 3 shells. Each shell now costs 20 instead of 15(and 15 for the cara upgrade) so you can do even more damage to the aliens resources by killing them! Also by killing them their lifeforms lose carapace/regen but maybe you want to kill their crags so they lose bilebomb, or perhaps you're going on a routine resource tower genocide to screw the alien economy over.
People need to realise that for marines, it's not about getting 2 tech points and turtling until you have dual exos + A3 + W3 + JPs and everything else. It has always been the case that you pressure early to disrupt the alien economy, upgrades, hive expansions etc etc.
Aliens are not more linear. Sure hive choice doesn't restrict crag/shift/shade, but these buildings are still expensive! So you'll see them being used sparingly/cleverly and if they die, that can be a big blow in terms of resources.
The layered evolutions was to stop the 1 minute omg so strong skulks and to scale them through the game. It is also to give a little bit more of a res sink to aliens because they had such a lower cost tech tree than marines.
Biomass hp scaling wasn't supposed to be game breaking by making aliens super strong, it's to give slight additional health in response to relatively large weapons upgrades of the marines. It's also an incentive for marines to deny these tech points (marine decisions?? crucial b249 engagements??). It's also another res sink.
For the most part of the game, it is about how players fight and organize. It's an rts / FPS (FIRST PERSON SHOOTER) hybrid. You've literally gone and said "This new pizza is simple, you have a base made up of a different dough and a different stuffed crust. Everything else that makes this pizza is up to the toppings."
"bubble along more homogenously" - I don't think you know what this word means, correct me if I'm wrong but I think you mean to say that the changes makes the game scale more flowingly. This is good in terms of balance because you don't want to see these 1 minute 100% carapace skulks owning the early game forcing a quick arms lab to get that armor/weapons upgrades out early. You want to open all tech routes!!
So basically it's another res sink. I see. Most people would describe a pizza by the topping
For me, it seems now it's "just cost them money, whatever way you like, shoot lifeforms, doesn't matter really much" which is what I meant by "bubble along homogenously". Or on the defending side, "just defend our stuff so I don't have to replace it".
The main thing the Khamm can do wrong now is "waste money" instead of getting more upgrades/biomass/whatever.
From the games I played, NS2 now seems to be less about strategy than before (like: "let's hold this part of the map and pressure this thing here, I'll get you quick bile bomb/adren/whatever", or risk something and get a Shift somewhere and spam expensive eggs), and is more like fancy TDM with buildings and upgrades and a resource system.
The entire "Aliens got these upgrades, we have to react specifically" part is reduced.
Maybe it's a bit too fluid to my liking.
And maybe this is exactly what UWE wanted, idk.
We'll see what the future brings
The lerk feels strange....like a fighter jet
Don't like fade movement one bit. Stopped playing it altogether now. I feel it's too restrictive in how you have to play it a certain way to be any use. Or maybe it's just there's no tutorial or even tool tips and I'm clueless :P
Gorge is nice to play, its heal spray can reach further which helps building. Babblers at 1 res per egg are too expensive for what they (don't) do.
I'm generally OK with the cost of units and items on both sides.
Have to say as a marine I find it easier than ever to kill skulks. They may be new players or it could be improved performance.
Glad to read I'm not the only one feeling that way. Very sad how they killed fade.
The skulk movement is great. It's fixed my biggest gripe since 240.
Only had a small go at fade, certainly a lot of relearning to do there.
The new jet pack is fast! fun to play that's for sure. It seemed to make life difficult for onii in a couple of rounds.
I think what is needed is more marketing to bring in all the people who left not long after Xmas sale due to performance.
that quote of yours is wrong, I never said any such thing.
Level 1 Phantom is just camo, level 2 is camo and you aren't as loud, and level 3 you have camo and full blown silence.
I have noticed a speed difference between level 2 and 3 celerity, but with spurs the more obvious differences between levels is shown in adrenaline.
Of course. I actually made a thread lamenting how terrible of a job UWE did of explaining these changes to the playerbase. If they had shown a little more effort we probably wouldn't have as many people complaining.
That new energy efficient efficient method is so obscure I would have never have figured it out without someone telling it to me. This is another thing wrong with 250. The devs just assume people will know these things right off the bat. Instead of making a critical method of movement natural they rely on a weird obscure method in an attempt to artificially inflate the skill curve. It's just like how bunnyhopping is really a logical error in physics code.
Pre-250 Fade was perfectly viable without Blink. Not having Blink made you less effective at dodging but you could still dodge most attacks with well timed Shadowsteps and Shadowstep jumps. Now you need to use Blink in order to dodge which burns through your energy in a snap.
So what you're saying is that Fade is effectively useless. The whole point of a Fade was to be an assassin. Fades were the anti-personnel choice of the Aliens. Now all they are good at is slapping Marines around and wheezing around?
Don't even get me started about bunnyhopping. Bunnyhopping is a logical error in the physics code. It should not exist. Basing a core gameplay mechanic on a logical error is insane.
Yeah, most of the people there were rookies. If I had gone up against any proper opponents I would have died instantly. That was the point I was trying to make. Fade is useless now.
As obscure as shadowstepping and jumping before you lose the momentum so it ignores air friction? Unlikely.
Psst. It's not bunnyhopping. You don't gain speed by using air acceleration (ie bhop), you merely hop to avoid ground friction.
You do gain speed, not via air acceleration, but via A/D strafing that you do while bunnyhopping. It's quite easy to notice as a Fade, works with Skulks too, but it's ridiculously small for them. (Making it way hard to learn unfortunately.)
I'm just wondering what Shadowstep is for right now? I mean sure it's great for, hmm, back and forth swiping passes against an SG marine, maybe...? Then again it's 15 res the comm can use on something else...
Just checked on fade with debug speed and you are right but the gain is meager at best. It worked out to about a .15 gain is speed every strafe jump and if you are using just that to gain speed you are doing it wrong. With blink you can instantly jump to 15ish and with just timed jumps (no A/D strafe or mouse movements) you can hold 14+ easily. I'd still say calling this bunnyhop is disingenuous. /shrug
edit: Even with A/D strafe jumping + blink you will never outpace the top speed given by blink. (this is all sans celerity)
I didn't know you can't beat the blink max speed with strafe. That's really dumb to be honest. The whole business with A/D strafing smells just like walljumping pre 250 did - a bordering useless feature that's just there to be there but way too scary to be made anything useful out of.
Start ns2, from the main menu type map ns2_summit in the console (~ key)
When you're in the ready room type cheats 1 in the console
Then type J2 and then fade, and finally type debugspeed.
Now.. try to only tap blink and use the spacebar around the map.. you'll notice ~14.5- 15.5 speeds
Now try to beat those speeds by consistently holding even 1 point faster, 16.5 (which btw would only be a 6% gain) using A/D strafing.
Maybe i just suck at it, but i can't even accomplish holding said measly 6% gain in speed... so i have a hard time when people make it sound like strafing is needed for speed in the new movement system. :-/
You probably could on a downward slope. I was testing this in tram tunnel since it is the longest flat area where elevation changes wouldn't cause unnecessary speed drops. Just strafe jumping it took me the length of the tunnel to hit 11.25 speed which is super impractical.
A player should be focused on learning how to play the game, not the controls
I try not to sound like I'm making a point about what's needed and what's not. People just tend to push the discussion that way. I'm just interested about what is and what isn't. So yeah, the only benefit from occasional A/D strafing would be the occasional saved blink. Depending on how hard A/D strafing is, everyone can evaluate its worth on their own. (10% saved energy woot!) I'd just use it because it's fun.