Can we get some official statement on this from uwe? If they're still fine with the lack of a proper Allen vision. Their silence is just causing more frustration.
I'm happy with the default vision of aliens right now. I think that the new alien vision goes too far in the intentionally-useless direction - there should be some compromise. Right now I never use it, ever, except occasionally for finding doorways in pitch black rooms.
I've stopped playing NS2 because of this and the OP side jump, the game is just worst than he was during months before patch, I simply don't understand why UWE change things which were perfectly fine.
Yeah using AV now is just plain useless. Also, I loved the old one but I can understand why they changed it...
However now that theyre starting new projects, there wont be a stream of new players (there never really was anyways) so bring back the old AV for us veterans to use (as almost all of us want it back!)
I'm happy with the default vision of aliens right now. I think that the new alien vision goes too far in the intentionally-useless direction - there should be some compromise. Right now I never use it, ever, except occasionally for finding doorways in pitch black rooms.
Working as intended...
If you have problems with normal Alien vision, you are free to state your issues. I just dont understand why it is so bad to look at textured marines and environment and how that destroys your enjoyment of ns2.
I think it is also an entry barrier for newer players if there is this option that makes spotting players that much easier. It should not be press f to win. I'm exaggerating here, it was not that bad.
I'll admit I dislike the colour scheme of the new AV, but at the same time I disliked how much of a crutch the old one was. If the new one was changed to a more pleasing colour scheme (white on orange is awful) then I might like it more.
I would prefer tagged marines stand out a lot more after they have been hit with parasite. Tracking them during close combat is a pain because of the distance they can jump and the reduced field of vision some alien lifeforms have.
Alien vision is supposed to be a tool used under certain circumstances. Keeping it on the whole game means it is not implemented properly. I used to play with the old one on the entire game because it gave an edge the entire time.
If alien vision goes back to the old way marines should get night vision goggles they can keep on the whole game too.
Well at present it gets used a total of less than 0.01% of my time playing. In fact the true value might well be considerably lower than this... I flick it on and off again only if the lights have just gone out and I'm not 100% sure of my position within the room relative to props/scenery.
I turned off the old alien vision more than that...
But the main issue here is not even about the alien vision, it's about NORMAL ALIEN SIGHT. Textures + effects + overlays... there's too much visual clutter and it's bad. Even now I'm running at 120Hz/Lightboost and I can see so much more during fast combat, it's STILL painful on my eyes/headache-inducing, and makes CQC very tough against decent players (talking comp games here). Yeah sure in a pub it's not a problem, but that's a whole different game.
Enzyme + mucous membrane + textures + orange outlines + orange-coloured friendlies + orange outlined structures... not good.
Not totally loving the new AV but see what UWE is doing with it, and appreciate their change.
UWE is busy fixing the game, which I'd rather that happen than have them get too involved with this issue right now.
still haven't heard any reasonable argument that it should be reverted.
Not totally loving the new AV but see what UWE is doing with it, and appreciate their change.
UWE is busy fixing the game, which I'd rather that happen than have them get too involved with this issue right now.
still haven't heard any reasonable argument that it should be reverted.
?????? You understand UWE reasons????
Reasons... How about players preference? If you want to argue that you prefer it as it is then how about an option in the menu so everyone can be happy.
Now I will gladly debunk any reason you have to support the change to the new AV.
game devs do not have to do everything the players say to do. Some decisions are executive and it is their game to do that with if so they choose. This title has had so much player input and people seem to be getting a tad out if control...the sense of entitlment on these boards is getting disgusting.
BTW, I too can debunk all your claims, and do it in my sleep.
Really my claim for having old AV back was that it made NS a more comfortable enjoyable game. So go ahead and prove that players don't want AV back.
Sure they don't have to do anything, but they do promote their player involvement and continue to ask to be supported. As such asking WHY? Is not inappropriate.
So yeah, we all know (in our hearts) that AV was changed because of aesthetic marketability. They release a patch with bio dome and all the new textures and such exclaiming how beautiful and detailed the game is. Low and behold the option to declutter is removed. Oh and look at the picture for build 256, turns out the ugly orange looks cool as a screenshot (as long as your not moving the motion sickness and eyestrain don't kick in immediately)
comfortable in today's world has become synonymous with the following: effortless, lazy, non-skilled and unable to cope.
The AV is supposed to be a bit abrasive so you don't want to keep it on all the time and it is not supposed to be used in lit rooms for the obvious advantage it used to give. Currently it works as it is fully intended to. It can always be tweaked to make it not so nauseous, but fundamentally I think it should stay pretty much how it is. It forces me to use it tactfully and with purpose instead of always keeping it on and making the game more effortless and less challenging which has no place in any game about "working for the win" and "competition".
From a development perspective you can see the obvious as to why they changed it to what it is today. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do that math.
Asking why is not inappropriate, you are correct in that. However there are some people that try to make the dev team look like A-holes because they have not responded... that is very silly.
Whatever happened to asymmetric warfare? People telling aliens that old AV was easy mode, continuing to say that people should become "skilled" to play aliens, why shouldn't we accept the opposite argument: That marines should have to "get skilled," to counter the old Alien sight advantage? Beyond that the new AV doesn't make sense in any known context of predidation.
comfortable in today's world has become synonymous with the following: effortless, lazy, non-skilled and unable to cope.
The AV is supposed to be a bit abrasive so you don't want to keep it on all the time and it is not supposed to be used in lit rooms for the obvious advantage it used to give. Currently it works as it is fully intended to. It can always be tweaked to make it not so nauseous, but fundamentally I think it should stay pretty much how it is. It forces me to use it tactfully and with purpose instead of always keeping it on and making the game more effortless and less challenging which has no place in any game about "working for the win" and "competition".
From a development perspective you can see the obvious as to why they changed it to what it is today. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do that math.
Asking why is not inappropriate, you are correct in that. However there are some people that try to make the dev team look like A-holes because they have not responded... that is very silly.
Well I'm still getting headaches from alien NORMAL sight, and I essentially never use alien vision. So if that's how you define 'working as intended', it is far from silly to ask UWE why they intended that I should have to get headaches while playing alien, where beforehand I didn't; not to mention why they intended that alien vision should never, ever be used.
120Hz/lightboost has helped with the headaches somewhat, but not completely. During the old alien vision builds, I didn't get headaches at all (for 600h+ of game time) and I was on 60Hz then as well.
Again, I'm not trying to stop you using whatever vision mode you want. I have asked for and will continue to ask for the OPTION to run something with less visual clutter and tuneable colours both for normal alien sight and alien vision. That needs to sit alongside whatever default UWE chooses.
@ Tova: The point is that it makes it too easy the old way, and there is a huge difference between effort and effortless. A game should not be an enabler of under achievers and more importantly, consensus is not a fact based exercise regarding the "why it should be reverted" in this particular instance and does not make it "right".
@ RooBubba: There could be some cleaning up of it and it can be toned down... I never said that it should not. It is a tad abrasive as I have stated before however, it does at this time properly implement the mechanic that AV is supposed to have. Ultimately players are not supposed like having it on all the time as it is supposed to have a specific use... AV is a tool folks, not a player option. I think a lot of people are getting confused with this concept. It is not the same as "atmospherics on/off"
AV is a tool folks, not a player option. I think a lot of people are getting confused with this concept. It is not the same as "atmospherics on/off"
Tools are meant to be used though, to make a situation easier than without. This is the problem with the new AV. There are no situations where its use is better than without. The only time it even comes close, which is really a tie, is before the emergency lights come on.
AV is a tool folks, not a player option. I think a lot of people are getting confused with this concept. It is not the same as "atmospherics on/off"
Tools are meant to be used though, to make a situation easier than without. This is the problem with the new AV. There are no situations where its use is better than without. The only time it even comes close, which is really a tie, is before the emergency lights come on.
And even then I DO NOT use alien vision as it's inferior to normal alien sight - ironically this is especially true in dark rooms which is in fact the only time you get the highlights without all the textural clutter on screen. I think I have turned on alien vision about 3 or 4 times in the last 50h of gameplay, and the first of those was just to try it out. It gets immediately turned off once I have my bearings in the room.
Old alien vision wasn't 'easy mode' - that's a gross oversimplification and actually devalues hard-won alien rounds against good marine teams. I don't argue that the new mode makes things harder for aliens, but the manner in which it makes things harder is to clutter the vision further and obfuscate unnecessarily. Highlights around marines and structures and friendlies further serves to confuse the visuals, especially so in the fast-paced CQC moments: precisely when you want clarity in an FPS game.
Just like with the new normal sight, players have to adapt, and of course we do. I adapt by taking painkillers before an NSL match to try to combat the eye strain in the (important) longer gaming sessions. This shouldn't be necessary, but it is.
If this is a nerf to aliens for balance reasons, the new alien sight is a terrible way to achieve that goal. If it's for aesthetic reasons, I don't agree with that either: I actually like the style of the old AV, and it's a shame that more people didn't appreciate its aesthetic value. The new alien sight is uglier: it doesn't have the stylised almost cartoony visuals of old AV, and it doesn't have the clean/clear marine-type vision due to the outlines around everything.
TL;DR: Obfuscation is a terrible mechanic for balance. Alien sight now looks worse than it did before due to cluttered outlines. In addition, AV is totally useless now (without exaggeration, I actually mean this). There is literally no argument I have yet seen that justifies or validates these changes... And still no word from UWE.
When you take an engine apart you don't use one tool the entire time, you have to use many. Each tool is supposed to be used under a certain circumstance. In this case the dark room is the only intended place to use such a tool as AV. Why is that people think it is supposed to be active all the time... most puzzling
When you take an engine apart you don't use one tool the entire time, you have to use many. Each tool is supposed to be used under a certain circumstance. In this case the dark room is the only intended place to use such a tool as AV. Why is that people think it is supposed to be active all the time... most puzzling
a) it's useless even in a dark room compared to normal vision, I never use it unless for some reason I don't have my bearings at the moment the lights go out - extremely rare. In fact I have never used it in a combat situation in the dark or otherwise, as it's simply inferior in every way, see my comments above
b) I'm not really talking about AV, I'm talking about the normal sight - that's the main issue here
c) Have you even calculated the length of time that an alien is in the dark in this game? It's going to be < 0.1% - and by a long way less than that. Turning off the old AV made it easier to see flashlights, and this got used MUCH more frequently than the current AV-on.
In this case, to dismantle the engine you have to beat your head against it repeatedly. This results in one broken engine, and one sore head. The alternative tool provided is a limp partly-inflated mallet which does have a use, but only in entertaining children, not in dismantling engines.
@seevee if I could take an engine apart with 1 tool I would. As a mechanical engineer when I design a part the number 1 rule is simple design, this includes minimising the tool kit needed for assembly/repair.
To that end the old AV had disadvantages; shorter rendering range, invisible flashlights, and a loss of perspective (that corner your hiding in us not as dark as you think). As such turning off the old AV did have advantages.
As for comfort sure siting in a lazy-boy is comfortable, but not having my thumb slammed in a door is comfortable as well.
I have also contended that the OLD AV both raised the skill floor and lowered the skill ceiling. Thus providing beginner players a smoother transition into a new play still, and encouraging competitive players to limit its use. This results in the ability for the casual gamer to play and prevents it from becoming OP in the hands of the pub-stomping pro.
Look, I totally agree that vision obfuscation is a bad thing but it is even harder on the marines. The aliens getting rid of all the diversions by tapping a button just isn't fair, especially when you have other performance issues you have to deal with additionally.
Let's face it. You are shitstorming because UWE has yet again changed a feature. They did that a lot in the process of making NS2. Hell I'm still not convinced why we have an alien commander but bitching about it with "it is useless because i dont like it" arguments is not gonna help. Instead, you could try to come up with ways to improve the new alien vision and/or alter it in a way so your eyes dont hurt.
Hell I'm still not convinced why we have an alien commander but bitching about it with "it is useless because i dont like it" arguments is not gonna help. Instead, you could try to come up with ways to improve the new alien vision and/or alter it in a way so your eyes dont hurt.
The argument isn't "it is useless because i dont like it" it's "it is useless because it is useless." I don't mind having AV being a hinderance when used in the light, it's supposed to be like night vision anyway so it makes sence, but make it clearly advantagous when it's dark or with emergency lighting so there's a point in turning it on. Otherwise, why bother even having it?
No, we are "shitstorming" UWE because they are outright ignoring a portion of the community. UWE is producing a product, just like the design and sale of any any product the consumer happiness is absolutely fundamental in success. So arguing "I don't like it" as a consumer should be a huge red flag to the producer.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
What's your argument to me, a fellow player/consumer, who has wanted NO ALIEN VISION AT ALL since day 0?
I'm super happy with the changes, and while I'm ok with the alien flashlight part of it, I'd rather aliens be simply unnaffected by the lights going out.
But I think even the outline is too much help for aliens. I think it's all a silly handicap that aliens simply don't need and moreover, shouldn't have.
Look, I totally agree that vision obfuscation is a bad thing but it is even harder on the marines. The aliens getting rid of all the diversions by tapping a button just isn't fair, especially when you have other performance issues you have to deal with additionally.
Let's face it. You are shitstorming because UWE has yet again changed a feature. They did that a lot in the process of making NS2. Hell I'm still not convinced why we have an alien commander but bitching about it with "it is useless because i dont like it" arguments is not gonna help. Instead, you could try to come up with ways to improve the new alien vision and/or alter it in a way so your eyes dont hurt.
Can't change AV for comp play: only mods to crosshairs are allowed. Otherwise I'd agree yes that is precisely what I would do
@mattji104 it would be better without the outlines than it currently is, I completely agree. I actually think it's less help having that outline there as it's yet more visual clutter to contend with and genuinely doesn't help at very close range in combat.
I'd rather have old AV back in addition, but at the very least the option to turn off the outlines would help enormously.
Comments
However now that theyre starting new projects, there wont be a stream of new players (there never really was anyways) so bring back the old AV for us veterans to use (as almost all of us want it back!)
If you have problems with normal Alien vision, you are free to state your issues. I just dont understand why it is so bad to look at textured marines and environment and how that destroys your enjoyment of ns2.
I think it is also an entry barrier for newer players if there is this option that makes spotting players that much easier. It should not be press f to win. I'm exaggerating here, it was not that bad.
I would prefer tagged marines stand out a lot more after they have been hit with parasite. Tracking them during close combat is a pain because of the distance they can jump and the reduced field of vision some alien lifeforms have.
If alien vision goes back to the old way marines should get night vision goggles they can keep on the whole game too.
I turned off the old alien vision more than that...
But the main issue here is not even about the alien vision, it's about NORMAL ALIEN SIGHT. Textures + effects + overlays... there's too much visual clutter and it's bad. Even now I'm running at 120Hz/Lightboost and I can see so much more during fast combat, it's STILL painful on my eyes/headache-inducing, and makes CQC very tough against decent players (talking comp games here). Yeah sure in a pub it's not a problem, but that's a whole different game.
Enzyme + mucous membrane + textures + orange outlines + orange-coloured friendlies + orange outlined structures... not good.
Still haven't heard from UWE
Still haven't heard any reasonable argument for the change.
Its not changing
The end
I want this thread to continue.
It needs to change.
Not the end.
UWE is busy fixing the game, which I'd rather that happen than have them get too involved with this issue right now.
still haven't heard any reasonable argument that it should be reverted.
?????? You understand UWE reasons????
Reasons... How about players preference? If you want to argue that you prefer it as it is then how about an option in the menu so everyone can be happy.
Now I will gladly debunk any reason you have to support the change to the new AV.
BTW, I too can debunk all your claims, and do it in my sleep.
Sure they don't have to do anything, but they do promote their player involvement and continue to ask to be supported. As such asking WHY? Is not inappropriate.
So yeah, we all know (in our hearts) that AV was changed because of aesthetic marketability. They release a patch with bio dome and all the new textures and such exclaiming how beautiful and detailed the game is. Low and behold the option to declutter is removed. Oh and look at the picture for build 256, turns out the ugly orange looks cool as a screenshot (as long as your not moving the motion sickness and eyestrain don't kick in immediately)
The AV is supposed to be a bit abrasive so you don't want to keep it on all the time and it is not supposed to be used in lit rooms for the obvious advantage it used to give. Currently it works as it is fully intended to. It can always be tweaked to make it not so nauseous, but fundamentally I think it should stay pretty much how it is. It forces me to use it tactfully and with purpose instead of always keeping it on and making the game more effortless and less challenging which has no place in any game about "working for the win" and "competition".
From a development perspective you can see the obvious as to why they changed it to what it is today. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do that math.
Asking why is not inappropriate, you are correct in that. However there are some people that try to make the dev team look like A-holes because they have not responded... that is very silly.
Well I'm still getting headaches from alien NORMAL sight, and I essentially never use alien vision. So if that's how you define 'working as intended', it is far from silly to ask UWE why they intended that I should have to get headaches while playing alien, where beforehand I didn't; not to mention why they intended that alien vision should never, ever be used.
120Hz/lightboost has helped with the headaches somewhat, but not completely. During the old alien vision builds, I didn't get headaches at all (for 600h+ of game time) and I was on 60Hz then as well.
Again, I'm not trying to stop you using whatever vision mode you want. I have asked for and will continue to ask for the OPTION to run something with less visual clutter and tuneable colours both for normal alien sight and alien vision. That needs to sit alongside whatever default UWE chooses.
@ RooBubba: There could be some cleaning up of it and it can be toned down... I never said that it should not. It is a tad abrasive as I have stated before however, it does at this time properly implement the mechanic that AV is supposed to have. Ultimately players are not supposed like having it on all the time as it is supposed to have a specific use... AV is a tool folks, not a player option. I think a lot of people are getting confused with this concept. It is not the same as "atmospherics on/off"
Tools are meant to be used though, to make a situation easier than without. This is the problem with the new AV. There are no situations where its use is better than without. The only time it even comes close, which is really a tie, is before the emergency lights come on.
And even then I DO NOT use alien vision as it's inferior to normal alien sight - ironically this is especially true in dark rooms which is in fact the only time you get the highlights without all the textural clutter on screen. I think I have turned on alien vision about 3 or 4 times in the last 50h of gameplay, and the first of those was just to try it out. It gets immediately turned off once I have my bearings in the room.
Old alien vision wasn't 'easy mode' - that's a gross oversimplification and actually devalues hard-won alien rounds against good marine teams. I don't argue that the new mode makes things harder for aliens, but the manner in which it makes things harder is to clutter the vision further and obfuscate unnecessarily. Highlights around marines and structures and friendlies further serves to confuse the visuals, especially so in the fast-paced CQC moments: precisely when you want clarity in an FPS game.
Just like with the new normal sight, players have to adapt, and of course we do. I adapt by taking painkillers before an NSL match to try to combat the eye strain in the (important) longer gaming sessions. This shouldn't be necessary, but it is.
If this is a nerf to aliens for balance reasons, the new alien sight is a terrible way to achieve that goal. If it's for aesthetic reasons, I don't agree with that either: I actually like the style of the old AV, and it's a shame that more people didn't appreciate its aesthetic value. The new alien sight is uglier: it doesn't have the stylised almost cartoony visuals of old AV, and it doesn't have the clean/clear marine-type vision due to the outlines around everything.
TL;DR: Obfuscation is a terrible mechanic for balance. Alien sight now looks worse than it did before due to cluttered outlines. In addition, AV is totally useless now (without exaggeration, I actually mean this). There is literally no argument I have yet seen that justifies or validates these changes... And still no word from UWE.
a) it's useless even in a dark room compared to normal vision, I never use it unless for some reason I don't have my bearings at the moment the lights go out - extremely rare. In fact I have never used it in a combat situation in the dark or otherwise, as it's simply inferior in every way, see my comments above
b) I'm not really talking about AV, I'm talking about the normal sight - that's the main issue here
c) Have you even calculated the length of time that an alien is in the dark in this game? It's going to be < 0.1% - and by a long way less than that. Turning off the old AV made it easier to see flashlights, and this got used MUCH more frequently than the current AV-on.
In this case, to dismantle the engine you have to beat your head against it repeatedly. This results in one broken engine, and one sore head. The alternative tool provided is a limp partly-inflated mallet which does have a use, but only in entertaining children, not in dismantling engines.
To that end the old AV had disadvantages; shorter rendering range, invisible flashlights, and a loss of perspective (that corner your hiding in us not as dark as you think). As such turning off the old AV did have advantages.
As for comfort sure siting in a lazy-boy is comfortable, but not having my thumb slammed in a door is comfortable as well.
I have also contended that the OLD AV both raised the skill floor and lowered the skill ceiling. Thus providing beginner players a smoother transition into a new play still, and encouraging competitive players to limit its use. This results in the ability for the casual gamer to play and prevents it from becoming OP in the hands of the pub-stomping pro.
Let's face it. You are shitstorming because UWE has yet again changed a feature. They did that a lot in the process of making NS2. Hell I'm still not convinced why we have an alien commander but bitching about it with "it is useless because i dont like it" arguments is not gonna help. Instead, you could try to come up with ways to improve the new alien vision and/or alter it in a way so your eyes dont hurt.
The argument isn't "it is useless because i dont like it" it's "it is useless because it is useless." I don't mind having AV being a hinderance when used in the light, it's supposed to be like night vision anyway so it makes sence, but make it clearly advantagous when it's dark or with emergency lighting so there's a point in turning it on. Otherwise, why bother even having it?
I'm super happy with the changes, and while I'm ok with the alien flashlight part of it, I'd rather aliens be simply unnaffected by the lights going out.
But I think even the outline is too much help for aliens. I think it's all a silly handicap that aliens simply don't need and moreover, shouldn't have.
What say you to me
Can't change AV for comp play: only mods to crosshairs are allowed. Otherwise I'd agree yes that is precisely what I would do
@mattji104 it would be better without the outlines than it currently is, I completely agree. I actually think it's less help having that outline there as it's yet more visual clutter to contend with and genuinely doesn't help at very close range in combat.
I'd rather have old AV back in addition, but at the very least the option to turn off the outlines would help enormously.