It's all this tinkering with "air maneuverability" and other such over-complicated concepts/mechanics that creates complexity for the sake of complexity (in a vain attempt to create depth) which leads to the abysmal player retention of this game.
Please explain how turning while in mid air is over-complicated. Moving your mouse is a fairly easy task to pick up. You can already do it as a skulk... you just happen to lose all your speed while doing it.
I was talking in generalities rather than specifics. It is a sad state of affairs that I have to actually type out that my selection of "air maneuverability", followed shortly thereafter by the phrase "and other such mechanics" was to use air maneuverability and other such mechanics as an example about excessive tinkering of this game. But that really is what we have come to.
Although your question wouldn't have been asked if you had basic reading comprehension skills, I will elaborate by asking you how it can be possible for an object that has left the ground from one point at one time on one particular trajectory, to turn around whilst keeping the same momentum, which would in effect mean that moving the mouse while mid-air goes back in time and changes your lift-off point to somewhere else. If you want to move around at speed in the air, evolve to lerk.
Just reduce rine acceleration and air speed or add big recoil in the air or add jump slowing bites ... Ive got a lot of ideas. Wanna more? Disable starfe jump, make it possible only forward, replace it with some dodge move, add for rines stamina bar, disable shooting while jumping, and so on ... There are so many options for that wierd strafe jumps It makes me crazy while playing skulk. No fun at all.
With strafe-jumping in place it feels much more balanced, but again, that is without playing against someone with sick tracking skills, so for the sake of comp balance, is strafe-jumping OP in comp play?
Even in pubs with comp players it gets dumb. Here's the thing, the win rates are still up in the air around 50/50. That's not because skulk v marine is balanced though, marines have a ton of early game power and aliens have a ton of mid game power, in skulk v marine in early game it's really not balanced. Past early game skulk v marine gets worse and worse for the skulk until they get leap and that doesn't help much. Against good players that jump will always give them enough time to kill you before finishing them if they aim well and react fast.
So when we talk about balance it's important to note if we're talking overall balance (win rate) or specific variable balance (alien unit versus marine unit). A game can be really really poorly balanced and random and have a win rate of 50/50.
You're putting everything so well. This is something I have tried to argue before - overall balance does not mean sectional balance.
The game is horribly balanced against aliens in the very early game. ...
TL;DR - the marine should have the advantage in ranged battle with a skulk; the skulk the advantage in melee. As it stands, the marine has the advantage in both cases.
What? Then how is it that aliens stomp marines at not just the early game, but at all times in the game, both in my own experience and in the ns2stats? Perhaps you should start playing NS2 before commenting, because you surely can't be playing the same game as everyone else.
Agreed. I'd like to see an accel increase or a bit more air control for skulks tested before the marine buff is reduced again, though.
It's all this tinkering with "air maneuverability" and other such over-complicated concepts/mechanics that creates complexity for the sake of complexity (in a vain attempt to create depth) which leads to the abysmal player retention of this game.
Hello fellow NS2 player! I am here to help you think! You totally missed the point. I clearly make a point about skulk v marine engagements and you refer to the meta game by saying which side wins?!?!?!!?! That is about as "missing the point" as one could ever get...
As for "everyone else" - sorry but most people seem to be against keeping the marine jumping as it currently is..which means what exactly? It means "everyone else" disagrees with you and agrees with me! In any case I hardly think the logical fallacy of "appeal to the masses" is necessarily going to get you far...
Keep the jump, with working collision its not half so bad and skulks would be grossly OP if marines did not receive some buff in exchange for working collision.
Since so many people seem to have a problem with the strafe jump, i wonder how many people actually understand how it works... Anyone care to prove me wrong?
Also as an FYI, both skulk and marine have the same acceleration constant.
dragon here to ruin the day with SCIENCE! (and maybe a little bit of romance)
The problem with the current strafe jumping is it made it way too easy for marines to dodge a skulk. If you say it's a L2P issue, it goes both ways. Marines relying on the current strafe jump to win encounters usually don't have to rely on positioning as much as they used to unless they are strafe jumping into a wall. This makes it much easier for marines who are bad-average at positioning/aim to kill skulks without having to practice aiming or learn positioning.
I can count multiple instances where I should have died as a marine but strafe jumping allowed me to hop around to a new position, or gave me enough time to reload and kill a skulk, or allowed me to dodge a skulk even though I had piss poor reaction time, or gave me an extra second to kill a skulk even though I missed them on the approach, or allowed me to launch myself 5 yards away from an ambusher because I didn't check the room before entering it.
Don't remove it completely, at most just reduce it a little bit. Removing it completely just brings us to the same alien dominance that we had for months.
I still think the main problem is not the strafe jumping itself, but rather the lack of an alien vision that truly distinguishes marines from the background. Combined with the strafe jumping this results in an extremely difficult situation for skulks at close range.
Please explain how turning while in mid air is over-complicated. Moving your mouse is a fairly easy task to pick up. You can already do it as a skulk... you just happen to lose all your speed while doing it.
5000dpi + default ingame sens + windows sens >6
What 95% of the playerbase uses either through stubbornness or ignorance. GL trying to do anything with that nevermind proper strafe/elevation jumping while still shooting/killing.
After playing enough of the build, I would suggest making the strafe-jump holster your weapon, and to compensate, tweak the jump to be slightly lower so you land and therefore recover your weapon faster.
Furthermore, I would also add a Shadow-step type of decelerated momentumat the end of the jump. Right now, the speed is almost constant.
If Shadow-Step's momentum recovery could be explained as 'Fast-Slow,' I would put the Marine strafe-jump in the same category. Right now, strafe-jump momentum recovery is almost 'Fast-Fast' to the point where there's almost total momentum conservation.
Make the strafe-jump a risky, but rewarding situational-based move like Shadow-Step. Right now it's a bit out of hand.
Most importantly, with this being a strafe-jump with your gun holstered, have the 'Special movement' activate the strafe jump combined with whatever movement key you're currently pressing.
So this for example: holding left+strafe and tapping 'Special Movement (sprint,shadow-step key)' would initiate strafe-jump dodge (with gun holstered).
This prevents mixing regular strafe jumping with your gun out with the actual dodge mechanic. But I think we're heading in an exciting direction as far as Marine juking. Now it just needs tweaking.
Please explain how turning while in mid air is over-complicated. Moving your mouse is a fairly easy task to pick up. You can already do it as a skulk... you just happen to lose all your speed while doing it.
5000dpi + default ingame sens + windows sens >6
What 95% of the playerbase uses either through stubbornness or ignorance. GL trying to do anything with that nevermind proper strafe/elevation jumping while still shooting/killing.
yeah because we should have to rely on gaming mice and windows tweaks to make the game mechanics playable. right.
Please explain how turning while in mid air is over-complicated. Moving your mouse is a fairly easy task to pick up. You can already do it as a skulk... you just happen to lose all your speed while doing it.
5000dpi + default ingame sens + windows sens >6
What 95% of the playerbase uses either through stubbornness or ignorance. GL trying to do anything with that nevermind proper strafe/elevation jumping while still shooting/killing.
yeah because we should have to rely on gaming mice and windows tweaks to make the game mechanics playable. right.
I think he was just giving an example of the typical way people set up their mice.. in my experience, nearly everyone I've talked to that has never been part of a competitive community tend to use a higher mouse sensitivity. I know I certainly did until the benefits of lower sensitivity were explained to me.
Lol these forums... Marines that use a strafe jump (that is a jump while only holding A or D) have less total jump height than a standard jump. Marines also are slowed when landing after jumping, which further reduces any additional jumps in both height and speed. So anyone else care to post more misinformation about the mechanic? Does anyone here actually understand the difference between a standard jump and the marine 'strafe jump' that is in NS2 currently?
Lol these forums... Marines that use a strafe jump (that is a jump while only holding A or D) have less total jump height than a standard jump. Marines also are slowed when landing after jumping, which further reduces any additional jumps in both height and speed. So anyone else care to post more misinformation about the mechanic? Does anyone here actually understand the difference between a standard jump and the marine 'strafe jump' that is in NS2 currently?
For one you can time a normal jump right after the strafe and retain most of your momentum for a higher jump to gain more distance and two height doesn't factor in to why the strafejump is problematic. Lastly in order to actually follow up on an ambush a skulk has to revert to ground speed or turn sharply at some point reducing their speed to walk speed, which neutralizes the mobility advantage of the skulk.
A good marine will strafejump at least after the second bite even from an ambush. This, combine with the skulk now being on the ground having lost all wallhop speed, puts enough distance between the two to give the marine enough time to kill the skulk before the 3rd bite. I've done this and had to done to me with and against competitive level players and I state that just to assure you this is not an L2P issue. It's absurdly easy to do and results in marines being potent at both melee and ranged.
If you don't land on an elevated surface the 2nd jump is still a lot slower. And if you're solo engaging a marine as a skulk in a position where he can easily chain elevated jumps then it was stupid to engage in the first place. The whole point is to not try and solo marines as a skulk, it's not supposed to work...
If you don't land on an elevated surface the 2nd jump is still a lot slower. And if you're solo engaging a marine as a skulk in a position where he can easily chain elevated jumps then it was stupid to engage in the first place. The whole point is to not try and solo marines as a skulk, it's not supposed to work...
Who or what gave you the impression that a skulk should not be able to solo a lone marine from ambush or otherwise closing the distance? A skulk is *absolutely* suppose to be able to solo a lone marine, marines are the ones that aren't suppose to wander by themselves because it was intended that they are more vunerable when alone than a solo skulk.
If you honestly think a skulk should not have the upper hand against a solo marine when ambushing or otherwise dodging to get get close, then you support the idea that skulks should have zero advantage in melee, and that's just not an idea I can understand or support, nor does it make any sense in the context of how the game is designed.
At all points throughout all balance changes solo attacking a marine as a skulk has been retarded if you're expecting to get a kill. Aliens have an incredible mobility and spawn advantage early game, if you're going for proper map control and forcing the marines into smaller groups, then group fights as aliens become much easier... this is why there are eggs instead of static spawn points. Death is irrelevant, you overwhelm them with ganks or turtle/harass, or some combo of both. 1v1 is either desperation or stupidity.
At all points throughout all balance changes solo attacking a marine as a skulk has been retarded if you're expecting to get a kill. Aliens have an incredible mobility and spawn advantage early game, if you're going for proper map control and forcing the marines into smaller groups, then group fights as aliens become much easier... this is why there are eggs instead of static spawn points. Death is irrelevant, you overwhelm them with ganks or turtle/harass, or some combo of both. 1v1 is either desperation or stupidity.
Nothing in this game is balanced for 1v1
You have an incredibly odd perception of the game that really isn't backed up by either design or actual play at any level. Aliens do not have a spawn advantage early game, for most of the game's life marines actually had a faster spawn rate and the IP's being fixed position is a trade off for how much more resiliant they are and for how they protect the person until spawn unlike eggs so I have no idea where you got that idea from or how it plays into why you think aliens should never 1v1 marines.
Second off if you honestly think aliens should never be able to 1v1 marines it provokes an incredibly obvious design flaw in map control. If one marine solo harassing requires a 2 skulk response then in a 6v6 game 2 marines harassing two different places would take 4 skulks to combat, leaving one skulk to deal with 3 marines on a third front. The concept doesn't work at all.
Third, currently the game isn't balanced for 1v1, and that's not a "feature" or an intelligent design choice, or a choice that is mutually exclusive with over all balance, it's just bad design. The entire concept is that on a unit per unit basis marines win at range and skulks win at melee, and strafe jump breaks that basic principle for no real reason.
So this marine that just strafejumps away and gains a ton of speed, exactly what is he doing? Because if you knew how the strafe jump worked, you would know that the gains from the jump are actually quite minimal, I would be surprised if anyone here knows the actual speed gain from a 'strafe jump'.
So this marine that just strafejumps away and gains a ton of speed, exactly what is he doing? Because if you knew how the strafe jump worked, you would know that the gains from the jump are actually quite minimal, I would be surprised if anyone here knows the actual speed gain from a 'strafe jump'.
Dragon.. it's not about this overall speed gain. It's about the burst speed to create teflon compensated marines, and how it works with crap like shotgun.
At all points throughout all balance changes solo attacking a marine as a skulk has been retarded if you're expecting to get a kill. Aliens have an incredible mobility and spawn advantage early game, if you're going for proper map control and forcing the marines into smaller groups, then group fights as aliens become much easier... this is why there are eggs instead of static spawn points. Death is irrelevant, you overwhelm them with ganks or turtle/harass, or some combo of both. 1v1 is either desperation or stupidity.
Nothing in this game is balanced for 1v1
You have an incredibly odd perception of the game that really isn't backed up by either design or actual play at any level. Aliens do not have a spawn advantage early game, for most of the game's life marines actually had a faster spawn rate and the IP's being fixed position is a trade off for how much more resiliant they are and for how they protect the person until spawn unlike eggs so I have no idea where you got that idea from or how it plays into why you think aliens should never 1v1 marines.
Second off if you honestly think aliens should never be able to 1v1 marines it provokes an incredibly obvious design flaw in map control. If one marine solo harassing requires a 2 skulk response then in a 6v6 game 2 marines harassing two different places would take 4 skulks to combat, leaving one skulk to deal with 3 marines on a third front. The concept doesn't work at all.
Third, currently the game isn't balanced for 1v1, and that's not a "feature" or an intelligent design choice, or a choice that is mutually exclusive with over all balance, it's just bad design. The entire concept is that on a unit per unit basis marines win at range and skulks win at melee, and strafe jump breaks that basic principle for no real reason.
Wow a team based game is not based around 1v1 engagements... How shocking... Also if the marine is smart he/she most likely knows every "ambush" spot on the map. You won't be able to surprise him unless you come from where he's not looking or if he's focused on say another skulk (flanking anyone). The game has and I hope will always require team effort to win. Your answers and replies about 6v6 suggests you've never played 6v6 competitively. You never engage 1v1 in competitive rounds. It's always a 2v1 or a 3v2 or something like that. This did not just start in build 253 it's been this way since the beginning.
Ok burst speed, the problem is you gain 1 m/s from a strafe jump... only 1. It doesnt reset your velocity so you cant just instantly change directions with it either. You cant chain them for larger gains, I still fail to see how 1 m/s of a gain is a problem, hell you get more then that from a single walljump and no one says thats a problem.
Wow a team based game is not based around 1v1 engagements... How shocking... Also if the marine is smart he/she most likely knows every "ambush" spot on the map. You won't be able to surprise him unless you come from where he's not looking or if he's focused on say another skulk (flanking anyone). The game has and I hope will always require team effort to win. Your answers and replies about 6v6 suggests you've never played 6v6 competitively. You never engage 1v1 in competitive rounds. It's always a 2v1 or a 3v2 or something like that. This did not just start in build 253 it's been this way since the beginning.
If you're just going to spout "L2P" and pretend that one, you're a better player than everyone here, and two, that that even has a bearing on one's ability to perceive imbalance, then there's not much of a point in us conversing as I don't believe either of those things are true.
Wow a team based game is not based around 1v1 engagements... How shocking... Also if the marine is smart he/she most likely knows every "ambush" spot on the map. You won't be able to surprise him unless you come from where he's not looking or if he's focused on say another skulk (flanking anyone). The game has and I hope will always require team effort to win. Your answers and replies about 6v6 suggests you've never played 6v6 competitively. You never engage 1v1 in competitive rounds. It's always a 2v1 or a 3v2 or something like that. This did not just start in build 253 it's been this way since the beginning.
If you're just going to spout "L2P" and pretend that one, you're a better player than everyone here, and two, that that even has a bearing on one's ability to perceive imbalance, then there's not much of a point in us conversing as I don't believe either of those things are true.
No I'm not saying anything like that. This is a slight L2P but its also a little too imbalanced at the moment. Too much acceleration and speed boost. It needs to be adjusted not taken out entirely like most would have it. I was simply giving my experience saying it doesn't seem as OP as most would have you believe in this forum. I was also saying that no this game should never be balanced around 1v1 because this is a team based game. There should never be 1v1 engagements unless 2 people are doing it wrong.
Ok burst speed, the problem is you gain 1 m/s from a strafe jump... only 1. It doesnt reset your velocity so you cant just instantly change directions with it either. You cant chain them for larger gains, I still fail to see how 1 m/s of a gain is a problem, hell you get more then that from a single walljump and no one says thats a problem.
You and I both know that comparison is full of smelly cheese holes.
*If skulks had assault rifles, then we might be onto something. Otherwise not so much.
So this marine that just strafejumps away and gains a ton of speed, exactly what is he doing? Because if you knew how the strafe jump worked, you would know that the gains from the jump are actually quite minimal, I would be surprised if anyone here knows the actual speed gain from a 'strafe jump'.
7-8 speed easily when the base speed of a Skulk is 7. Can you tell me how moving faster than the melee class is quite minimal? This confuses me.
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So why is it op even the top tier skulks are having large amounts of trouble with dealing with top tier marines? COuld it be because they suck? :O
I NEVER KNEW.
People can be so damn asinine sometimes when it comes to this game. The level of entitlement of some of the more hardcore folks leaves a such a bad taste in my mouth it makes me want to spit. Not everyone can be as pr0 as you.
Comments
I was talking in generalities rather than specifics. It is a sad state of affairs that I have to actually type out that my selection of "air maneuverability", followed shortly thereafter by the phrase "and other such mechanics" was to use air maneuverability and other such mechanics as an example about excessive tinkering of this game. But that really is what we have come to.
Although your question wouldn't have been asked if you had basic reading comprehension skills, I will elaborate by asking you how it can be possible for an object that has left the ground from one point at one time on one particular trajectory, to turn around whilst keeping the same momentum, which would in effect mean that moving the mouse while mid-air goes back in time and changes your lift-off point to somewhere else. If you want to move around at speed in the air, evolve to lerk.
Hello fellow NS2 player! I am here to help you think! You totally missed the point. I clearly make a point about skulk v marine engagements and you refer to the meta game by saying which side wins?!?!?!!?! That is about as "missing the point" as one could ever get...
As for "everyone else" - sorry but most people seem to be against keeping the marine jumping as it currently is..which means what exactly? It means "everyone else" disagrees with you and agrees with me! In any case I hardly think the logical fallacy of "appeal to the masses" is necessarily going to get you far...
dragon here to ruin the day with SCIENCE! (and maybe a little bit of romance)
I can count multiple instances where I should have died as a marine but strafe jumping allowed me to hop around to a new position, or gave me enough time to reload and kill a skulk, or allowed me to dodge a skulk even though I had piss poor reaction time, or gave me an extra second to kill a skulk even though I missed them on the approach, or allowed me to launch myself 5 yards away from an ambusher because I didn't check the room before entering it.
I still think the main problem is not the strafe jumping itself, but rather the lack of an alien vision that truly distinguishes marines from the background. Combined with the strafe jumping this results in an extremely difficult situation for skulks at close range.
5000dpi + default ingame sens + windows sens >6
What 95% of the playerbase uses either through stubbornness or ignorance. GL trying to do anything with that nevermind proper strafe/elevation jumping while still shooting/killing.
When I am able to easily take on 2-3 skulks at a time and win on a regular basis, that's proof that Marines are OP with strafe jump.
Furthermore, I would also add a Shadow-step type of decelerated momentumat the end of the jump. Right now, the speed is almost constant.
If Shadow-Step's momentum recovery could be explained as 'Fast-Slow,' I would put the Marine strafe-jump in the same category. Right now, strafe-jump momentum recovery is almost 'Fast-Fast' to the point where there's almost total momentum conservation.
Make the strafe-jump a risky, but rewarding situational-based move like Shadow-Step. Right now it's a bit out of hand.
Most importantly, with this being a strafe-jump with your gun holstered, have the 'Special movement' activate the strafe jump combined with whatever movement key you're currently pressing.
So this for example: holding left+strafe and tapping 'Special Movement (sprint,shadow-step key)' would initiate strafe-jump dodge (with gun holstered).
This prevents mixing regular strafe jumping with your gun out with the actual dodge mechanic. But I think we're heading in an exciting direction as far as Marine juking. Now it just needs tweaking.
yeah because we should have to rely on gaming mice and windows tweaks to make the game mechanics playable. right.
I think he was just giving an example of the typical way people set up their mice.. in my experience, nearly everyone I've talked to that has never been part of a competitive community tend to use a higher mouse sensitivity. I know I certainly did until the benefits of lower sensitivity were explained to me.
For one you can time a normal jump right after the strafe and retain most of your momentum for a higher jump to gain more distance and two height doesn't factor in to why the strafejump is problematic. Lastly in order to actually follow up on an ambush a skulk has to revert to ground speed or turn sharply at some point reducing their speed to walk speed, which neutralizes the mobility advantage of the skulk.
A good marine will strafejump at least after the second bite even from an ambush. This, combine with the skulk now being on the ground having lost all wallhop speed, puts enough distance between the two to give the marine enough time to kill the skulk before the 3rd bite. I've done this and had to done to me with and against competitive level players and I state that just to assure you this is not an L2P issue. It's absurdly easy to do and results in marines being potent at both melee and ranged.
Who or what gave you the impression that a skulk should not be able to solo a lone marine from ambush or otherwise closing the distance? A skulk is *absolutely* suppose to be able to solo a lone marine, marines are the ones that aren't suppose to wander by themselves because it was intended that they are more vunerable when alone than a solo skulk.
If you honestly think a skulk should not have the upper hand against a solo marine when ambushing or otherwise dodging to get get close, then you support the idea that skulks should have zero advantage in melee, and that's just not an idea I can understand or support, nor does it make any sense in the context of how the game is designed.
Nothing in this game is balanced for 1v1
You have an incredibly odd perception of the game that really isn't backed up by either design or actual play at any level. Aliens do not have a spawn advantage early game, for most of the game's life marines actually had a faster spawn rate and the IP's being fixed position is a trade off for how much more resiliant they are and for how they protect the person until spawn unlike eggs so I have no idea where you got that idea from or how it plays into why you think aliens should never 1v1 marines.
Second off if you honestly think aliens should never be able to 1v1 marines it provokes an incredibly obvious design flaw in map control. If one marine solo harassing requires a 2 skulk response then in a 6v6 game 2 marines harassing two different places would take 4 skulks to combat, leaving one skulk to deal with 3 marines on a third front. The concept doesn't work at all.
Third, currently the game isn't balanced for 1v1, and that's not a "feature" or an intelligent design choice, or a choice that is mutually exclusive with over all balance, it's just bad design. The entire concept is that on a unit per unit basis marines win at range and skulks win at melee, and strafe jump breaks that basic principle for no real reason.
Wow a team based game is not based around 1v1 engagements... How shocking... Also if the marine is smart he/she most likely knows every "ambush" spot on the map. You won't be able to surprise him unless you come from where he's not looking or if he's focused on say another skulk (flanking anyone). The game has and I hope will always require team effort to win. Your answers and replies about 6v6 suggests you've never played 6v6 competitively. You never engage 1v1 in competitive rounds. It's always a 2v1 or a 3v2 or something like that. This did not just start in build 253 it's been this way since the beginning.
If you're just going to spout "L2P" and pretend that one, you're a better player than everyone here, and two, that that even has a bearing on one's ability to perceive imbalance, then there's not much of a point in us conversing as I don't believe either of those things are true.
No I'm not saying anything like that. This is a slight L2P but its also a little too imbalanced at the moment. Too much acceleration and speed boost. It needs to be adjusted not taken out entirely like most would have it. I was simply giving my experience saying it doesn't seem as OP as most would have you believe in this forum. I was also saying that no this game should never be balanced around 1v1 because this is a team based game. There should never be 1v1 engagements unless 2 people are doing it wrong.
*If skulks had assault rifles, then we might be onto something. Otherwise not so much.
7-8 speed easily when the base speed of a Skulk is 7. Can you tell me how moving faster than the melee class is quite minimal? This confuses me.
I NEVER KNEW.