Marines use it all the time. Its unfair because it means both the marine and skulk have great evasion, but the marine gets ranged attacks and can easily kill a skulk.
And I agree it does look ridiculous. Strafe jumping is mostly just useful when you go by yourself, and I have said it many times that marines are SUPPOSED to be slow and are supposed to move TOGETHER.
Jetpacks are enough mobility for late game (fuel still needs to be nerfed) and exos should revert to being slow moving tanks.
I think the objective should be to make the game "feel" fair. Right now, not so much when you have a skulk trying to attack a marine, and through the magic of strafe jumping the marine gets further and further away from the skulk. In this case, it -is- a LTP issue, but not the right way: most new players, playing as skulks, can't understand how they are supposed to win against marines, get frustrated, and never play the game again. I don't think this is the consequence UWE was going for. The LTP aspect comes around in that in order to keep up, you have to learn how to be as exploitative as everyone else.
My nerfs to jumping would include:
1. Refining jump distance so that the distance traveled is proportionate to the direction: the furthest distance possible coming from jumping while running directly forward, the smallest distance coming from walking backwards. Right now, it "feels" like jumping sideways is about the equivalent of jumping forwards.
2. Removing air control from a jumping marine (without jet pack). How are these marines violating the laws of physics?
3. Implementing an accuracy adjustment for non-axe weapons: if you're jumping, you shouldn't be as accurate (I'd also give an accuracy bonus to crouching marines).
lol i love these forums, thanks for reminding me why i never post on here anymore. 7-8 speed from a walking strafe jump, really? Are you trying to make yourself look like a fool by just making up numbers? Maybe from a sprinting strafe jump, but considering it takes like 1-2 seconds to reach full sprinting speed, I hardly see how thats sudden 'burst' speed that a marine got.
Sure the comparison to a walljump is mostly crap, but its still a burst speed gain, and +1 m/s is hardly a huge burst speed gain.
Skulks have more air control than marines, the same acceleration and a higher base speed. If a marine is dodging your skulk in close range combat, he is outplaying you.
I will return to not posting anymore, its clear nothing has changed.
Being a good alien once you close that gap on the marine (whether you sneak up or you come walljump flying in at them) is all about landing your bites. And the way to land your bites is to successfully predict where that marine is going to move and their aim.
I was fairly good at dodging and being unpredictable as a marine before strafe jump while still maintaining good aim. Strafe jump just added an additional and visually different move that can be very hard to predict as an alien. Coupled with the rather bad collision mechanics in this game and lost momentum from colliding with a marine can make this lower, farther jump even more frustrating to play against.
I was personally happy with trying to dodge bites with just the normal jump and using my marine position to win battles, and not sure why another dodge method had to be introduced into the game. I think it probably has to do with how UWE seems to try and address a problem using new features rather than tweak existing mechanics to address the root cause. "Oh marine turtles are the problem. Let's add this contaminate feature so people can echo in whips to break a turtle." There is some serious flawed logic in that. But I digress.
It's funny that so many people mention "Marine having early game, and aliens having mid game creating a 50/50 ratio" as a BAD thing.
Whoa! Marines can beat us 1 on1! Dude, maybe we should hit them in groups early game until we tech up?! Whoa, I have to change my game play depending on the resources available at my disposal, and, AND, this change in game progress magically achieves a near even win ratio?! Crazy, isn't it?
All I'm hearing is "I don't want to coordinate as a team and want to COD marines as a skulk; obviously its the developer's fault for achieving match balance, instead of engagement balance. Changing the way I attack things, depending on how the current match is progressing, is confusing and scary - AND, I want to be able to run at marines and laugh as they 'turret' me."
Imagine if there was a way that you could double (or more) your points of attack on a marine and reduce the space they have to work with while (theoretically) doubling your damage output! Wouldn't it be amazing if the devs added something like this? Too bad they can't because its called teamwork and it is entirely player based. Sorry. This is an advanced L2P issue that goes beyond wall jumping and predicting movements that is probably still separating clans from div 3 and div 2 (mine included).
lol i love these forums, thanks for reminding me why i never post on here anymore. 7-8 speed from a walking strafe jump, really? Are you trying to make yourself look like a fool by just making up numbers? Maybe from a sprinting strafe jump, but considering it takes like 1-2 seconds to reach full sprinting speed, I hardly see how thats sudden 'burst' speed that a marine got.
I'm sorry, I failed to read your mind when you wanted the answer of how strong strafe jump, you meant only a walking strafe jump. I'm such an idiot then, must be since you are having fits and leaving the forums.
there is a solution to make strafejump obsolete in the first place: HIT-DETECTION!
if a marine could easily kill three skulks with one clip (like in good old ns1)
it wouldnt be a problem to not have strafejump in.
its not about the bad aim of the ppl or the low dpm of the guns,
its because 60% of your bullets go to curt cobain, right into the nirvana, /dev/NULL, the internet, heaven, hell, peace, freedom, happiness, or what ever you wanna call the impossible :P
Like I've always said : if you can provide video evidence of actual hit registration issues you will win front page credits, a copy of the game, and some other goodies from me. (video must be 720p 30 fps minimum, h264 compression, and net_stats enabled)
Until then, my guess is you are either missing the tight hit boxes, or experiencing high latency /low tick rate.
And because its you.. i'll add on top of that a personal $50 US dollars.
Now go provide a video backing up your allegations so that everyone can believe you, and the problem can be solved - if in fact it actually exists.
/derailment
I think it's as simple as the speed gain. I also have fond memories of trying to juke Skulks in previous builds, and like some others have said in here, I felt that I had earned my last-ditch desperation play that usually left me with 10 health and an empty pistol. The Skulk was faster, but if you could chain some jumps and sail off a railing or something, you might lose them. Now it's quite literally laughable as the poor aliens try and keep up with my Michael Jordan moves.
The Skulk needs to be equal speed or faster, period. Watching a marine jump backwards away from you and gain ground is just going to be weak no matter how you play it or say "hurr teamplay, durrr!" That's really an insult to about everyone who's played the game longer than 10 minutes. You attack in groups. WE KNOW. But there are *gasp* situations where 1 skulk is forced to engage 1 or several marines. Shocking, sure, but when you're playing as a team sometimes it means taking the bad 1v1s to buy time, save a higher lifeform, etc... That's when the true hideousness of this mechanic rears it's head, and the countless times where you pull off a successful ambush, land 2 bites, then get blasted as the jedi marine leaps completely out of your FOV and puts a few into your dome.
It just felt and played more balanced in previous builds. I never had a problem as a marine, but what has happened is they've listened to crying players who actually DID need to L2P, but now we have the opposite where the SJ that started out of L2P in the first place is defended with more L2P. If you ever were a good marine, you didn't need this SJ business anyway.. engagements used to be about careful positioning, 360 security, a tight aim, and the most obvious, teamplay.
How do you say this encourages teamplay when it motivates marines to go rambo? It lopsides the teamplay just like, apparently, the skulk used to be. That isn't a fix, but I'm being hypothetical because I don't think it needed adjustment anyway. I appreciated the challenge as the marine and it felt as it should be, now it's hands down my most hated aspect of this game, and the early game marine experience is totally different. It's not scary anymore, not as atmospheric, not as immersive, and reeks of arcade jackassery. Like the mechanic or not, that's a fact no matter how you look at it. I'm hardly afraid of Fades anymore.
You know what I fear now? Running into a Gorge. Skulks are just laughable cannon fodder now, like what happened to the Aliens in the AvP movies.
The ability for humans to jump ridiculous heigts is a relic form the ancient fps days (Quake 1). UWE needs to let go of this ancient concept if it wants to move forwards, IMO. Marines jumping around like fairies is never a good thing.
The ability for humans to jump ridiculous heigts is a relic form the ancient fps days (Quake 1). UWE needs to let go of this ancient concept if it wants to move forwards, IMO. Marines jumping around like fairies is never a good thing.
I'd take Quake 1 over Call of Duty 37 any. day. of the week.
The ability for humans to jump ridiculous heigts is a relic form the ancient fps days (Quake 1). UWE needs to let go of this ancient concept if it wants to move forwards, IMO. Marines jumping around like fairies is never a good thing.
I'd take Quake 1 over Call of Duty 37 any. day. of the week.
Me too, it's just that the concepts that worked for 15 year old arena shooters might not be a good fit for a game that tries to create a believable atmosphere.
The ability for humans to jump ridiculous heigts is a relic form the ancient fps days (Quake 1). UWE needs to let go of this ancient concept if it wants to move forwards, IMO. Marines jumping around like fairies is never a good thing.
I'd take Quake 1 over Call of Duty 37 any. day. of the week.
Me too, it's just that the concepts that worked for 15 year old arena shooters might not be a good fit for a game that tries to create a believable atmosphere.
Ah, well, because of the Spark engine I'm required to play this game on graphics settings that vaguely resemble those of Quake 1, so sometimes I forget that they're trying to create a believable atmosphere with this game, lol.
At least for me, I always prioritize gameplay over visuals, realism, immersion, etc. and I happen to think marine strafe jump has improved the way this game plays, so I'm all for it... But I can see how it gets in the way of that stuff
The ability for humans to jump ridiculous heigts is a relic form the ancient fps days (Quake 1). UWE needs to let go of this ancient concept if it wants to move forwards, IMO. Marines jumping around like fairies is never a good thing.
I'd take Quake 1 over Call of Duty 37 any. day. of the week.
Me too, it's just that the concepts that worked for 15 year old arena shooters might not be a good fit for a game that tries to create a believable atmosphere.
Ah, well, because of the Spark engine I'm required to play this game on graphics settings that vaguely resemble those of Quake 1, so sometimes I forget that they're trying to create a believable atmosphere with this game, lol.
At least for me, I always prioritize gameplay over visuals, realism, immersion, etc. and I happen to think marine strafe jump has improved the way this game plays, so I'm all for it... But I can see how it gets in the way of that stuff
lol i love these forums, thanks for reminding me why i never post on here anymore. 7-8 speed from a walking strafe jump, really? Are you trying to make yourself look like a fool by just making up numbers? Maybe from a sprinting strafe jump, but considering it takes like 1-2 seconds to reach full sprinting speed, I hardly see how thats sudden 'burst' speed that a marine got.
Sure the comparison to a walljump is mostly crap, but its still a burst speed gain, and +1 m/s is hardly a huge burst speed gain.
Skulks have more air control than marines, the same acceleration and a higher base speed. If a marine is dodging your skulk in close range combat, he is outplaying you.
I will return to not posting anymore, its clear nothing has changed.
Well dragon, i would agree that in top competitive level, strafe jump is largely irrelevant as a balance issue - up there, i would think it's more of a flavour issue of 'whether i like the mechanic or not'. But it still continues to be a problem as far as i can see in every single skill level under that.
As for the burst speed thing, it's obviously more helpful to frame it in terms of relative screen movement. +1 m/s on a marine for a skulk might as well be the same as +5 m/s on a skulk for a marine (i'm not being exact obviously, so don't hit me with the dragon science hammer). In the same way that the moon travelling incredibly fast does not appear to move very fast at all due to distance. I don't think it's entirely fair to say +1 m/s = hardly a huge burst speed when you arn't considering context. We both know skulks can no longer do crazy walljumping and cross marine screen space horizontally/diagonally with huge sudden speed boosts for a reason, and when that was the case way back, there was indeed alot of complaining from people who understood why it was a bad thing for that to be happening.
*edit*
I understand that most of what is causing strafe long jump to be percieved as very fast is actually high accel from the strafe leading up to a long jump. The two mechanics here are not very compatible (too high synergy), and i would rather have the high accel than the strafe long jump personally.
At the least, i was hoping meds would be put up to 2 tres and nanoshield removed with this strafe long jump being in, but that hasn't been done. With these tradeoffs, i would be more than happy to shut the hell up about why i think strafe jump is bad and just bite the bullet.
Also think it's worth noting that skulk +m/s bursts will usually always occur outside of marine vision from map speed buildup. And on the walljump approach if any, it's usually in a straightish line causing not much relative screen movement for the marine. That would be partly why you don't hear the 'unwashed forum masses' complaining about ~+1 m/s from walljump being big or whatever.
--
Maybe marines do need extra movement strength over what they have currently (minus the strafe long jump). I just don't think strafe long jump is a good answer mechanically to fill that hole. If that makes sense.
So this marine that just strafejumps away and gains a ton of speed, exactly what is he doing? Because if you knew how the strafe jump worked, you would know that the gains from the jump are actually quite minimal, I would be surprised if anyone here knows the actual speed gain from a 'strafe jump'.
Strafe jump will be used mostly to get away from ambushes. So marine aren't moving so much when they have to use it.
Standing (speed = 0) like in a waiting line, it is mostly a gain of a "basic 6.5" for beginners. You can usually reach 6.8 and 7.1 for a tiny tiny ms if you use "run". You can actually jump a techpoint length. You start at the left of techpoint and land on the right. So it is a huge acceleration, not "minimal".
At all points throughout all balance changes solo attacking a marine as a skulk has been retarded if you're expecting to get a kill. Aliens have an incredible mobility and spawn advantage early game, if you're going for proper map control and forcing the marines into smaller groups, then group fights as aliens become much easier... this is why there are eggs instead of static spawn points. Death is irrelevant, you overwhelm them with ganks or turtle/harass, or some combo of both. 1v1 is either desperation or stupidity.
Nothing in this game is balanced for 1v1
You have an incredibly odd perception of the game that really isn't backed up by either design or actual play at any level. Aliens do not have a spawn advantage early game, for most of the game's life marines actually had a faster spawn rate and the IP's being fixed position is a trade off for how much more resiliant they are and for how they protect the person until spawn unlike eggs so I have no idea where you got that idea from or how it plays into why you think aliens should never 1v1 marines.
Second off if you honestly think aliens should never be able to 1v1 marines it provokes an incredibly obvious design flaw in map control. If one marine solo harassing requires a 2 skulk response then in a 6v6 game 2 marines harassing two different places would take 4 skulks to combat, leaving one skulk to deal with 3 marines on a third front. The concept doesn't work at all.
Third, currently the game isn't balanced for 1v1, and that's not a "feature" or an intelligent design choice, or a choice that is mutually exclusive with over all balance, it's just bad design. The entire concept is that on a unit per unit basis marines win at range and skulks win at melee, and strafe jump breaks that basic principle for no real reason.
Wow a team based game is not based around 1v1 engagements... How shocking... Also if the marine is smart he/she most likely knows every "ambush" spot on the map. You won't be able to surprise him unless you come from where he's not looking or if he's focused on say another skulk (flanking anyone). The game has and I hope will always require team effort to win. Your answers and replies about 6v6 suggests you've never played 6v6 competitively. You never engage 1v1 in competitive rounds. It's always a 2v1 or a 3v2 or something like that. This did not just start in build 253 it's been this way since the beginning.
1vs1 never happens in comp ? if you say so. On my side i do believe that many situations can happen. But that's just me.
Your answer implies that the skulks can never take a marine alone, which implies you think they are underpowered... or marines are OP isn't it ?
The whole point that are making "skulks at heart" is: The guy didn't see you coming and he still can fly away easily... come on. Dumb should be penalized. Right now it is not.
After a succesful bite, marine movement should be reduced for a second.
This would allow strafe jumping to dodge an initial attack,
but make it harder for marines to magically jump out of range of further bites.
Just thinking, a researchable, low damage, bite and hold on mechanic could be a fun way to allow skulks to counter jet packs.
I like that idea ^ and let me just add here that no one brings up crouch-jumping, standard fare from the Source engine that adds overall clearance (not total height) to your jump.
True stroy, marines can literally crouch-jump and vault completely over a standing marine. I do it every ready room in between every match. You can jump, hit crouch at near when you would impact the other player, and land right on their heads. That gives a standing marine the ability to jump almost 6' straight up in the air. That's just insane for how slow the pre-celerity Skulk has become.
1vs1 never happens in comp ? if you say so. On my side i do believe that many situations can happen. But that's just me.
Your answer implies that the skulks can never take a marine alone, which implies you think they are underpowered... or marines are OP isn't it ?
The whole point that are making "skulks at heart" is: The guy didn't see you coming and he still can fly away easily... come on. Dumb should be penalized. Right now it is not.
I never said 1v1's never happen I said you never want to engage in 1v1. In competitive matches most of the time the marines know where the aliens are and the aliens where the marines are. If you want to insure the enemy is killed going into an engagement alone is not the smart tactic, because its too much of a 50/50 chance. You always want the odds in your favor and as aliens that means having more in the engagement or having higher life forms to assist. Marines always have the advantage in engagements because they still can get chip damage on you before you're in range. And the pub idea of ambushing (hiding above a doorway) doesn't work all the time in competitive games because the marines will likely expect it. If the marine is alone he will wait for back up and just lane block until they can push.
I'm not saying 1v1 engagements never occur, but it's always a risk for both players when they do. Unless one has the clear advantage of positioning they will not engage each other until the odds are tipped in ones favor (normally more bodies).
I'm not saying I like where SJ is or that it should even stay. I'm just arguing that we shouldn't balance around 1v1 engagements. 1 skulk vs. 1 marine is not what ns2 is about. The more team work you do as aliens (attacking in groups) the more likely the target is killed despite advantages like SJ and having a ranged weapon.
I thought I heard the problem with strafe jumping was a bug that allowed it to exceed the max acceleration set on it, which was allowing marines to outpace skulks. I think it was through moving diagonally and jumping, which kept the max acceleration in the x and y directions restricted but the overall acceleration was too great. Not sure where I heard this though. I think it might have been something Sewlek said regarding the BT mod changes. I will try and find the original source of that though.
Like I've always said : if you can provide video evidence of actual hit registration issues you will win front page credits, a copy of the game, and some other goodies from me. (video must be 720p 30 fps minimum, h264 compression, and net_stats enabled)
Until then, my guess is you are either missing the tight hit boxes, or experiencing high latency /low tick rate.
And because its you.. i'll add on top of that a personal $50 US dollars.
Now go provide a video backing up your allegations so that everyone can believe you, and the problem can be solved - if in fact it actually exists.
/derailment
I need to be much nicer to people in future. [Edit by Obraxis] I shall not tell the truth anymore. (or you will ban me ((((((( ) [Edit by derWalter]
After a succesful bite, marine movement should be reduced for a second.
This would allow strafe jumping to dodge an initial attack,
but make it harder for marines to magically jump out of range of further bites.
Just thinking, a researchable, low damage, bite and hold on mechanic could be a fun way to allow skulks to counter jet packs.
See, I think a year ago perhaps the marine movement didnt have the current SJ so it would probably have sucked a little too much for marines, but with the current marine SJ I would be 100% in favour of this mechanic.
What was peoples problem with the concept originally?
edit: to clarify I'm referring to restricting marine movement (like, reducing jump power to 20%/ bringing them down out of a jump on bite connect), and not a skill for bringing down jetpackers :P
I have 1263 hr's played on ns2 last time played is today,and i still think this strafe jump needs tweaked or removed.now days every rine cant shot down a skulk,i wonder where that come from.let's say u harass them or eat extractors now depends on where i eat it i have to run or engage in fight and that depends how many rines are coming in.
It's just exhausting for a skulk and looks dumb,really now, jumping jumping,spam space key and in the end it's not so hard to master at all looking around the srv's,but some of this people don't master the strafe jump i know when i see one that does cuz i know my angles as a skulk and that also depends if i have angles to work with.
Open spaces forget it only if u group up and also then u have 2 or 3 skulks dead.u took from the skulk any fighting chance against jetpacks i mean wth guys.the first time when i start playing this game i was in favor for marines since the alien comm could drop onos eggs very early in game and everybody was saying aliens op,etc.
Rines can overcome a onos so easy now,in and out,i get it and i need almost my whole team support if jetpacks are online?? or "sneak" my onos somehow in to they'r base..anyway and went off topic a lil' but what u did to the skulk for me it's unforgivable,love the game but hate the gameplay,i'm not demanding anything here,nor i want to care anymore for this game till u balance it.i'll check on here for updates,but i'm out had enough and i tell u this with the utmost respect.best to all of you,Cos
I think the objective should be to make the game "feel" fair. Right now, not so much when you have a skulk trying to attack a marine, and through the magic of strafe jumping the marine gets further and further away from the skulk. In this case, it -is- a LTP issue, but not the right way: most new players, playing as skulks, can't understand how they are supposed to win against marines, get frustrated, and never play the game again. I don't think this is the consequence UWE was going for. The LTP aspect comes around in that in order to keep up, you have to learn how to be as exploitative as everyone else.
My nerfs to jumping would include:
1. Refining jump distance so that the distance traveled is proportionate to the direction: the furthest distance possible coming from jumping while running directly forward, the smallest distance coming from walking backwards. Right now, it "feels" like jumping sideways is about the equivalent of jumping forwards.
2. Removing air control from a jumping marine (without jet pack). How are these marines violating the laws of physics?
3. Implementing an accuracy adjustment for non-axe weapons: if you're jumping, you shouldn't be as accurate (I'd also give an accuracy bonus to crouching marines).
I agree with almost everything except accuracy adjustment. That probably will never happen, it also doesnt really fit the game
I also agree that onos and exo survive-ability has been nerfed way too much. Onos bone shield is rarely used in situations where it actaully matters and carapace doesnt help as much anymore. Increase base armor/hp but leave carapace how it is so that people will use regen. As for exo, un-nerf its health and un-buff it's speed to make it a slow moving tank again.
Comments
And I agree it does look ridiculous. Strafe jumping is mostly just useful when you go by yourself, and I have said it many times that marines are SUPPOSED to be slow and are supposed to move TOGETHER.
Jetpacks are enough mobility for late game (fuel still needs to be nerfed) and exos should revert to being slow moving tanks.
My nerfs to jumping would include:
1. Refining jump distance so that the distance traveled is proportionate to the direction: the furthest distance possible coming from jumping while running directly forward, the smallest distance coming from walking backwards. Right now, it "feels" like jumping sideways is about the equivalent of jumping forwards.
2. Removing air control from a jumping marine (without jet pack). How are these marines violating the laws of physics?
3. Implementing an accuracy adjustment for non-axe weapons: if you're jumping, you shouldn't be as accurate (I'd also give an accuracy bonus to crouching marines).
Sure the comparison to a walljump is mostly crap, but its still a burst speed gain, and +1 m/s is hardly a huge burst speed gain.
Skulks have more air control than marines, the same acceleration and a higher base speed. If a marine is dodging your skulk in close range combat, he is outplaying you.
I will return to not posting anymore, its clear nothing has changed.
I was fairly good at dodging and being unpredictable as a marine before strafe jump while still maintaining good aim. Strafe jump just added an additional and visually different move that can be very hard to predict as an alien. Coupled with the rather bad collision mechanics in this game and lost momentum from colliding with a marine can make this lower, farther jump even more frustrating to play against.
I was personally happy with trying to dodge bites with just the normal jump and using my marine position to win battles, and not sure why another dodge method had to be introduced into the game. I think it probably has to do with how UWE seems to try and address a problem using new features rather than tweak existing mechanics to address the root cause. "Oh marine turtles are the problem. Let's add this contaminate feature so people can echo in whips to break a turtle." There is some serious flawed logic in that. But I digress.
Whoa! Marines can beat us 1 on1! Dude, maybe we should hit them in groups early game until we tech up?! Whoa, I have to change my game play depending on the resources available at my disposal, and, AND, this change in game progress magically achieves a near even win ratio?! Crazy, isn't it?
All I'm hearing is "I don't want to coordinate as a team and want to COD marines as a skulk; obviously its the developer's fault for achieving match balance, instead of engagement balance. Changing the way I attack things, depending on how the current match is progressing, is confusing and scary - AND, I want to be able to run at marines and laugh as they 'turret' me."
Imagine if there was a way that you could double (or more) your points of attack on a marine and reduce the space they have to work with while (theoretically) doubling your damage output! Wouldn't it be amazing if the devs added something like this? Too bad they can't because its called teamwork and it is entirely player based. Sorry. This is an advanced L2P issue that goes beyond wall jumping and predicting movements that is probably still separating clans from div 3 and div 2 (mine included).
I'm sorry, I failed to read your mind when you wanted the answer of how strong strafe jump, you meant only a walking strafe jump. I'm such an idiot then, must be since you are having fits and leaving the forums.
if a marine could easily kill three skulks with one clip (like in good old ns1)
it wouldnt be a problem to not have strafejump in.
its not about the bad aim of the ppl or the low dpm of the guns,
its because 60% of your bullets go to curt cobain, right into the nirvana, /dev/NULL, the internet, heaven, hell, peace, freedom, happiness, or what ever you wanna call the impossible :P
And because its you.. i'll add on top of that a personal $50 US dollars.
Now go provide a video backing up your allegations so that everyone can believe you, and the problem can be solved - if in fact it actually exists.
/derailment
The Skulk needs to be equal speed or faster, period. Watching a marine jump backwards away from you and gain ground is just going to be weak no matter how you play it or say "hurr teamplay, durrr!" That's really an insult to about everyone who's played the game longer than 10 minutes. You attack in groups. WE KNOW. But there are *gasp* situations where 1 skulk is forced to engage 1 or several marines. Shocking, sure, but when you're playing as a team sometimes it means taking the bad 1v1s to buy time, save a higher lifeform, etc... That's when the true hideousness of this mechanic rears it's head, and the countless times where you pull off a successful ambush, land 2 bites, then get blasted as the jedi marine leaps completely out of your FOV and puts a few into your dome.
It just felt and played more balanced in previous builds. I never had a problem as a marine, but what has happened is they've listened to crying players who actually DID need to L2P, but now we have the opposite where the SJ that started out of L2P in the first place is defended with more L2P. If you ever were a good marine, you didn't need this SJ business anyway.. engagements used to be about careful positioning, 360 security, a tight aim, and the most obvious, teamplay.
How do you say this encourages teamplay when it motivates marines to go rambo? It lopsides the teamplay just like, apparently, the skulk used to be. That isn't a fix, but I'm being hypothetical because I don't think it needed adjustment anyway. I appreciated the challenge as the marine and it felt as it should be, now it's hands down my most hated aspect of this game, and the early game marine experience is totally different. It's not scary anymore, not as atmospheric, not as immersive, and reeks of arcade jackassery. Like the mechanic or not, that's a fact no matter how you look at it. I'm hardly afraid of Fades anymore.
You know what I fear now? Running into a Gorge. Skulks are just laughable cannon fodder now, like what happened to the Aliens in the AvP movies.
I'd take Quake 1 over Call of Duty 37 any. day. of the week.
Me too, it's just that the concepts that worked for 15 year old arena shooters might not be a good fit for a game that tries to create a believable atmosphere.
Ah, well, because of the Spark engine I'm required to play this game on graphics settings that vaguely resemble those of Quake 1, so sometimes I forget that they're trying to create a believable atmosphere with this game, lol.
At least for me, I always prioritize gameplay over visuals, realism, immersion, etc. and I happen to think marine strafe jump has improved the way this game plays, so I'm all for it... But I can see how it gets in the way of that stuff
I wish I could make my game look like quake...
r_picmip 10 activate!
As for the burst speed thing, it's obviously more helpful to frame it in terms of relative screen movement. +1 m/s on a marine for a skulk might as well be the same as +5 m/s on a skulk for a marine (i'm not being exact obviously, so don't hit me with the dragon science hammer). In the same way that the moon travelling incredibly fast does not appear to move very fast at all due to distance. I don't think it's entirely fair to say +1 m/s = hardly a huge burst speed when you arn't considering context. We both know skulks can no longer do crazy walljumping and cross marine screen space horizontally/diagonally with huge sudden speed boosts for a reason, and when that was the case way back, there was indeed alot of complaining from people who understood why it was a bad thing for that to be happening.
*edit*
I understand that most of what is causing strafe long jump to be percieved as very fast is actually high accel from the strafe leading up to a long jump. The two mechanics here are not very compatible (too high synergy), and i would rather have the high accel than the strafe long jump personally.
At the least, i was hoping meds would be put up to 2 tres and nanoshield removed with this strafe long jump being in, but that hasn't been done. With these tradeoffs, i would be more than happy to shut the hell up about why i think strafe jump is bad and just bite the bullet.
Also think it's worth noting that skulk +m/s bursts will usually always occur outside of marine vision from map speed buildup. And on the walljump approach if any, it's usually in a straightish line causing not much relative screen movement for the marine. That would be partly why you don't hear the 'unwashed forum masses' complaining about ~+1 m/s from walljump being big or whatever.
--
Maybe marines do need extra movement strength over what they have currently (minus the strafe long jump). I just don't think strafe long jump is a good answer mechanically to fill that hole. If that makes sense.
Tadaaaa! (tested it, briefly)
Walking 5.2 ; running 6.25 (No Catalysts)
Strafe jump will be used mostly to get away from ambushes. So marine aren't moving so much when they have to use it.
Standing (speed = 0) like in a waiting line, it is mostly a gain of a "basic 6.5" for beginners. You can usually reach 6.8 and 7.1 for a tiny tiny ms if you use "run". You can actually jump a techpoint length. You start at the left of techpoint and land on the right. So it is a huge acceleration, not "minimal".
1vs1 never happens in comp ? if you say so. On my side i do believe that many situations can happen. But that's just me.
Your answer implies that the skulks can never take a marine alone, which implies you think they are underpowered... or marines are OP isn't it ?
The whole point that are making "skulks at heart" is: The guy didn't see you coming and he still can fly away easily... come on. Dumb should be penalized. Right now it is not.
After a succesful bite, marine movement should be reduced for a second.
This would allow strafe jumping to dodge an initial attack,
but make it harder for marines to magically jump out of range of further bites.
Just thinking, a researchable, low damage, bite and hold on mechanic could be a fun way to allow skulks to counter jet packs.
True stroy, marines can literally crouch-jump and vault completely over a standing marine. I do it every ready room in between every match. You can jump, hit crouch at near when you would impact the other player, and land right on their heads. That gives a standing marine the ability to jump almost 6' straight up in the air. That's just insane for how slow the pre-celerity Skulk has become.
I never said 1v1's never happen I said you never want to engage in 1v1. In competitive matches most of the time the marines know where the aliens are and the aliens where the marines are. If you want to insure the enemy is killed going into an engagement alone is not the smart tactic, because its too much of a 50/50 chance. You always want the odds in your favor and as aliens that means having more in the engagement or having higher life forms to assist. Marines always have the advantage in engagements because they still can get chip damage on you before you're in range. And the pub idea of ambushing (hiding above a doorway) doesn't work all the time in competitive games because the marines will likely expect it. If the marine is alone he will wait for back up and just lane block until they can push.
I'm not saying 1v1 engagements never occur, but it's always a risk for both players when they do. Unless one has the clear advantage of positioning they will not engage each other until the odds are tipped in ones favor (normally more bodies).
I'm not saying I like where SJ is or that it should even stay. I'm just arguing that we shouldn't balance around 1v1 engagements. 1 skulk vs. 1 marine is not what ns2 is about. The more team work you do as aliens (attacking in groups) the more likely the target is killed despite advantages like SJ and having a ranged weapon.
I need to be much nicer to people in future. [Edit by Obraxis]
I shall not tell the truth anymore. (or you will ban me
See, I think a year ago perhaps the marine movement didnt have the current SJ so it would probably have sucked a little too much for marines, but with the current marine SJ I would be 100% in favour of this mechanic.
What was peoples problem with the concept originally?
edit: to clarify I'm referring to restricting marine movement (like, reducing jump power to 20%/ bringing them down out of a jump on bite connect), and not a skill for bringing down jetpackers :P
That's not thesame idea of slowing marines down and/or reducing strafejump distance after a succesful bite.
It's just exhausting for a skulk and looks dumb,really now, jumping jumping,spam space key and in the end it's not so hard to master at all looking around the srv's,but some of this people don't master the strafe jump i know when i see one that does cuz i know my angles as a skulk and that also depends if i have angles to work with.
Open spaces forget it only if u group up and also then u have 2 or 3 skulks dead.u took from the skulk any fighting chance against jetpacks i mean wth guys.the first time when i start playing this game i was in favor for marines since the alien comm could drop onos eggs very early in game and everybody was saying aliens op,etc.
Rines can overcome a onos so easy now,in and out,i get it and i need almost my whole team support if jetpacks are online?? or "sneak" my onos somehow in to they'r base..anyway and went off topic a lil' but what u did to the skulk for me it's unforgivable,love the game but hate the gameplay,i'm not demanding anything here,nor i want to care anymore for this game till u balance it.i'll check on here for updates,but i'm out had enough and i tell u this with the utmost respect.best to all of you,Cos
I agree with almost everything except accuracy adjustment. That probably will never happen, it also doesnt really fit the game
EDIT: Lets try to get back on track.