so.... all i see are "balances" that only nerf aliens...? drifters are rarely used in pubs (although more are catching on), why would they mess with them now that they are slower and have less armor? were crags too OP? I missed that somewhere while playing the game.. and reading what people that have already posted. Can a playtester help me out on this one?
"Players didn't use them in public play so they weren't OP". No. You DO NOT, EVER, balance around player ignorance. You balance around game play as intended, if people don't know how to play like that, that's their problem. Learn to play correctly.
so.... all i see are "balances" that only nerf aliens...? drifters are rarely used in pubs (although more are catching on), why would they mess with them now that they are slower and have less armor? were crags too OP? I missed that somewhere while playing the game.. and reading what people that have already posted. Can a playtester help me out on this one?
Probably for comp.
Drifters are OP, pubs are just too stupid and don't know how to use most new abilities they have, and even some old ones...
so.... all i see are "balances" that only nerf aliens...? drifters are rarely used in pubs (although more are catching on), why would they mess with them now that they are slower and have less armor? were crags too OP? I missed that somewhere while playing the game.. and reading what people that have already posted. Can a playtester help me out on this one?
"Players didn't use them in public play so they weren't OP". No. You DO NOT, EVER, balance around player ignorance. You balance around game play as intended, if people don't know how to play like that, that's their problem. Learn to play correctly.
I think you don't realize how people have a difficult time with the learning curve in this game; which, lowers player retention. I may be wrong.
Learn to play correctly? Really? Are you talking about me or people in general? If me, thanks for the insult. Either way, you're making comp players seem even cooler when you STILL talk trash to people about L2P. I have been using drifters quite often. I just played a few rounds (anecdotal, I know) and my drifters were going down like crazy. Eventually it became a tres issue. I know how to use drifters. Maybe the other players should have covered them better or taken more advantage of storm. Either way, what made them OP before? I haven't seen any complaints on the forums (I could be wrong on that one).
And now you're saying that you want no more balance changes? Have you ever had a complaint about the balances instead of "..balance around game play as intended".... have you ever had an issue with a "balance" change? Perhaps putting words in your mouth. If so, I apologize.
Another thing... reducing the range of slap for whips? They are an upgrade chamber now... I don't see them holding off 2 marines (unless spam at end-game (enough res)). I see most of this only affecting comp players TBH... but if I continue down that path I'll come off as you..
Either way, what made them OP before? I haven't seen any complaints on the forums (I could be wrong on that one).
Another thing... reducing the range of slap for whips? They are an upgrade chamber now... I don't see them holding off 2 marines (unless spam at end-game (enough res)). I see most of this only affecting comp players TBH... but if I continue down that path I'll come off as you..
Mucous was really, really OP. The instant armor healing made any engagements where mucous was used incredibly alien favored. It's almost like an AOE version of NanoShield, which was also recently nerfed.
The slap range on whips was also pretty insane.. they could hit you from like half a room away. It was WAY longer than the actual length of the whip is.
so.... all i see are "balances" that only nerf aliens...? drifters are rarely used in pubs (although more are catching on), why would they mess with them now that they are slower and have less armor? were crags too OP? I missed that somewhere while playing the game.. and reading what people that have already posted. Can a playtester help me out on this one?
"Players didn't use them in public play so they weren't OP". No. You DO NOT, EVER, balance around player ignorance. You balance around game play as intended, if people don't know how to play like that, that's their problem. Learn to play correctly.
And now you're saying that you want no more balance changes?
*WOOPS! The weirdest thing happened. I swore in my post and found it mod edited. And a warning ended up on my account. No more swearing now!*
OH DEAR, Hugh doesn't know what a forum censor is. If you have an issue with swearing, you make it delete the word entirely instead of just making it **** it and then complaining about people saying things the forum let them say. Hugh, I know you're a mod (or admin, w/e) but you can't punish people for swearing when it's already been censored, especially when you could have stopped it appearing at all. In fact I'd go so far as to say you can't punish anyone for posting anything unless it's abusing another person directly or spreading illegal information, or misinformation. Everything else is opinion which you are not right to squash. If you'd really had a problem with JUST the swearing in my post, you'd have removed the *'s ONLY and left the rest of the sentence where it was. That was a really low move and speaks volumes about your opinion of freedom of speech.
so.... all i see are "balances" that only nerf aliens...? drifters are rarely used in pubs (although more are catching on), why would they mess with them now that they are slower and have less armor? were crags too OP? I missed that somewhere while playing the game.. and reading what people that have already posted. Can a playtester help me out on this one?
"Players didn't use them in public play so they weren't OP". No. You DO NOT, EVER, balance around player ignorance. You balance around game play as intended, if people don't know how to play like that, that's their problem. Learn to play correctly.
And now you're saying that you want no more balance changes?
I have no idea where you got that from, as I am one of the few people who actually would like the game to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch because it's in such an awful state of balance right now.
As far saying "L2P" it's not trash, you can't say "oh I never use mucous or rarely do so it's not OP and shouldn't be nerfed. If people had been using them as much as they were able to then you wouldn't have an issue. You don't just leave it there out of good faith that "na, no way he'd spam mucous everywhere, that'd be really OP and unfair". This isn't about people being unskilled, this is about not balancing AROUND the unskilled.
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Thanks, still doesn't look like a problem with combat itself. And in the future, only like the first few loops are needed as that's just 145,000 lines of the same error looping
so.... all i see are "balances" that only nerf aliens...? drifters are rarely used in pubs (although more are catching on), why would they mess with them now that they are slower and have less armor? were crags too OP? I missed that somewhere while playing the game.. and reading what people that have already posted. Can a playtester help me out on this one?
Probably for comp.
Drifters are OP, pubs are just too stupid and don't know how to use most new abilities they have, and even some old ones...
While I agree with this, I wouldn't have put it the same way.
@RapGod, drifters ARE super OP in pubs when people actually use them (they are hard to kill when micro-ed (because people can't aim), ridiculous turn speed, so great for scouting an area without dying), and Mucous, holy crap, the fades / oni are unstoppable when you spam that ability. As an example, on Minshaft, when I was Alien Comm, we rushed Deposit with 1 gorge 1 fade, 2 skulks head on (PG, sentry, CC, armory and SG marines), the near death fade after taking a few SG to the face early, was on full armor by the end of the engagement because I was spamming mucous membrane continuously. (I can see how it could be a problem in Comp (pubs too for those using it). So a nerf probably wasn't a bad thing. I have said this before and will say it again, these small balance changes when new patches are coming out are really good as they don't make huge changes to game play, and is a great way to slowly tweak the balance of the game to make it fun for more people.
Thanks, still doesn't look like a problem with combat itself. And in the future, only like the first few loops are needed as that's just 145,000 lines of the same error looping
The only mod running on the server is combat. Unless you count the map.
Also tested on a default map with only combat and you get the same error.
so.... all i see are "balances" that only nerf aliens...? drifters are rarely used in pubs (although more are catching on), why would they mess with them now that they are slower and have less armor? were crags too OP? I missed that somewhere while playing the game.. and reading what people that have already posted. Can a playtester help me out on this one?
Just because something is not used in public OFTEN doesn't mean it's not over powered. A couple of builds back no one really knew how strong babblers were until a little experimentation found out that babblers were being healed by mucous and the gorge heal making them tank all the bullets being fired on a skulk.
Wasn't used often in public, but stupidly over powered and needed to be fixed before everyone started doing it and ruining games and then the shouts for nerfs.
Mucous is overpowered.
Drifter micro in your face is a bit overpowered when you can't shoot it down and it's mucous spamming.
Whip echo instant slap was a bit unfair because if you had a high ping you could often get hit 2 times before seeing the actual whip.
Whip distance decreased because there's too much PvE in large rooms and I suppose UWE wants whips to be for choke points or something.
For those worrying about no performance improvements, Red Dog has mentioned that he has got a 10 to 15% FPS increase from this patch. I'm guessing there are plenty of little tweaks not mentioned in the log.
So, crag healing was nerfed again is that correct? :O
After the nerf right after 250 came out I have never used a crag for healing, the only situation in which I wouldn't go back to the hive would be if there was a gorge at the crag.
I presume they're just onos upgrade chambers now?
Oh, and if it's about them enforcing alien positions too good, why not just reduce their health, or structure healing a bit? The overall heal nerf seems quite unnecessary.
I hate to nitpick, but to me this change is just plain annoying as hell. Why did they have to add a (rather loud) waterfall sound?? Seems like such a complete waste of time and effort.
I've started waiting until the map is loading before putting on my headphones. lol
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited November 2013
It was my "wasted time and effort", and yes, it IS a little loud, it needs fixed again anyways because that tree and grass looks silly. Was definitely not that loud when I put it in, nor was the grass like that...
New patch. NIce! Thanks UWE and SamusDroid. We will see how the changes play out. @MoFo Give "Fast Load Menu" mod a try. I was never fond of the Biodome menu. This one is my favorite: Fastload Main Menu [Veil] by aeroripper
*WOOPS! The weirdest thing happened. I swore in my post and found it mod edited. And a warning ended up on my account. No more swearing now!*
This made me laugh. I want to give that mod an awesome.
About crags. I don't thing the nerf of heal wave is a very pressing issue, but I suggest buffing the normal heal slightly (~5-15%). They heal just a bit too slow to be more viable than running back to a hive.
Thanks @Samusdroid and @Sewlek! (not forgetting anyone else at UWE who worked on it and the unloved PTs, too).
This is a huge list of bug fixes which I can only imagine has taken quite some considerable time and effort to track down and correct. Awesome job.
Drifters and in particular mucous membrane needed nerfing HARD. Mucous spam pretty much ruins comp play at the moment, as it blocks vision, massively heals armour instantly and provides yet another PvE target for marines to have to deal with.
That said, we never managed to get our early crag hive gameplay working as well as early shift, but other clans have really got on top of this much better than we did, and it becomes nigh on impossible to break during those first engagements when it's most crucial to win map control.
Very welcome changes, and looking forward to future additional fixes in 261!
Comments
"Players didn't use them in public play so they weren't OP". No. You DO NOT, EVER, balance around player ignorance. You balance around game play as intended, if people don't know how to play like that, that's their problem. Learn to play correctly.
Drifters are OP, pubs are just too stupid and don't know how to use most new abilities they have, and even some old ones...
I think you don't realize how people have a difficult time with the learning curve in this game; which, lowers player retention. I may be wrong.
Learn to play correctly? Really? Are you talking about me or people in general? If me, thanks for the insult. Either way, you're making comp players seem even cooler when you STILL talk trash to people about L2P. I have been using drifters quite often. I just played a few rounds (anecdotal, I know) and my drifters were going down like crazy. Eventually it became a tres issue. I know how to use drifters. Maybe the other players should have covered them better or taken more advantage of storm. Either way, what made them OP before? I haven't seen any complaints on the forums (I could be wrong on that one).
And now you're saying that you want no more balance changes? Have you ever had a complaint about the balances instead of "..balance around game play as intended".... have you ever had an issue with a "balance" change? Perhaps putting words in your mouth. If so, I apologize.
Another thing... reducing the range of slap for whips? They are an upgrade chamber now... I don't see them holding off 2 marines (unless spam at end-game (enough res)). I see most of this only affecting comp players TBH... but if I continue down that path I'll come off as you..
Can't wait for your next nice post...
Mucous was really, really OP. The instant armor healing made any engagements where mucous was used incredibly alien favored. It's almost like an AOE version of NanoShield, which was also recently nerfed.
The slap range on whips was also pretty insane.. they could hit you from like half a room away. It was WAY longer than the actual length of the whip is.
*WOOPS! The weirdest thing happened. I swore in my post and found it mod edited. And a warning ended up on my account. No more swearing now!*
OH DEAR, Hugh doesn't know what a forum censor is. If you have an issue with swearing, you make it delete the word entirely instead of just making it **** it and then complaining about people saying things the forum let them say. Hugh, I know you're a mod (or admin, w/e) but you can't punish people for swearing when it's already been censored, especially when you could have stopped it appearing at all. In fact I'd go so far as to say you can't punish anyone for posting anything unless it's abusing another person directly or spreading illegal information, or misinformation. Everything else is opinion which you are not right to squash. If you'd really had a problem with JUST the swearing in my post, you'd have removed the *'s ONLY and left the rest of the sentence where it was. That was a really low move and speaks volumes about your opinion of freedom of speech.
Original sentence said, minus the "swearing":
I have no idea where you got that from, as I am one of the few people who actually would like the game to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch because it's in such an awful state of balance right now.
As far saying "L2P" it's not trash, you can't say "oh I never use mucous or rarely do so it's not OP and shouldn't be nerfed. If people had been using them as much as they were able to then you wouldn't have an issue. You don't just leave it there out of good faith that "na, no way he'd spam mucous everywhere, that'd be really OP and unfair". This isn't about people being unskilled, this is about not balancing AROUND the unskilled.
http://www.ibisgaming.com/media/log-Server.zip
Over 145,000 lines of erros, pastebin was not having that.
On a serious note, though, hooray for fixes! Thanks for all the work Samus
While I agree with this, I wouldn't have put it the same way.
@RapGod, drifters ARE super OP in pubs when people actually use them (they are hard to kill when micro-ed (because people can't aim), ridiculous turn speed, so great for scouting an area without dying), and Mucous, holy crap, the fades / oni are unstoppable when you spam that ability. As an example, on Minshaft, when I was Alien Comm, we rushed Deposit with 1 gorge 1 fade, 2 skulks head on (PG, sentry, CC, armory and SG marines), the near death fade after taking a few SG to the face early, was on full armor by the end of the engagement because I was spamming mucous membrane continuously. (I can see how it could be a problem in Comp (pubs too for those using it). So a nerf probably wasn't a bad thing. I have said this before and will say it again, these small balance changes when new patches are coming out are really good as they don't make huge changes to game play, and is a great way to slowly tweak the balance of the game to make it fun for more people.
The only mod running on the server is combat. Unless you count the map.
Also tested on a default map with only combat and you get the same error.
COME AT ME G3!
Just because something is not used in public OFTEN doesn't mean it's not over powered. A couple of builds back no one really knew how strong babblers were until a little experimentation found out that babblers were being healed by mucous and the gorge heal making them tank all the bullets being fired on a skulk.
Wasn't used often in public, but stupidly over powered and needed to be fixed before everyone started doing it and ruining games and then the shouts for nerfs.
Mucous is overpowered.
Drifter micro in your face is a bit overpowered when you can't shoot it down and it's mucous spamming.
Whip echo instant slap was a bit unfair because if you had a high ping you could often get hit 2 times before seeing the actual whip.
Whip distance decreased because there's too much PvE in large rooms and I suppose UWE wants whips to be for choke points or something.
it end up being quicker to run all the way back to the hive to heal, especially for higher lifeforms.
At least make crags heal up armor fast or something.
at least we got this;
Added waterfall sound effect to the main menu
Reduced excessive tree sway in the main menu
finally! and more alien nerfs, lovely
After the nerf right after 250 came out I have never used a crag for healing, the only situation in which I wouldn't go back to the hive would be if there was a gorge at the crag.
I presume they're just onos upgrade chambers now?
Oh, and if it's about them enforcing alien positions too good, why not just reduce their health, or structure healing a bit? The overall heal nerf seems quite unnecessary.
Yes, now we get to see deep grass penetration into the tree....sigh.
Next patch might include newfound performance increases, may not. We still have to investigate it during PT.
I hate to nitpick, but to me this change is just plain annoying as hell. Why did they have to add a (rather loud) waterfall sound?? Seems like such a complete waste of time and effort.
I've started waiting until the map is loading before putting on my headphones. lol
@MoFo Give "Fast Load Menu" mod a try. I was never fond of the Biodome menu. This one is my favorite:
Fastload Main Menu [Veil] by aeroripper
This made me laugh. I want to give that mod an awesome.
About crags. I don't thing the nerf of heal wave is a very pressing issue, but I suggest buffing the normal heal slightly (~5-15%). They heal just a bit too slow to be more viable than running back to a hive.
This is a huge list of bug fixes which I can only imagine has taken quite some considerable time and effort to track down and correct. Awesome job.
Drifters and in particular mucous membrane needed nerfing HARD. Mucous spam pretty much ruins comp play at the moment, as it blocks vision, massively heals armour instantly and provides yet another PvE target for marines to have to deal with.
That said, we never managed to get our early crag hive gameplay working as well as early shift, but other clans have really got on top of this much better than we did, and it becomes nigh on impossible to break during those first engagements when it's most crucial to win map control.
Very welcome changes, and looking forward to future additional fixes in 261!