so.... all i see are "balances" that only nerf aliens...? drifters are rarely used in pubs (although more are catching on), why would they mess with them now that they are slower and have less armor? were crags too OP? I missed that somewhere while playing the game.. and reading what people that have already posted. Can a playtester help me out on this one?
"Players didn't use them in public play so they weren't OP". No. You DO NOT, EVER, balance around player ignorance. You balance around game play as intended, if people don't know how to play like that, that's their problem. Learn to play correctly.
And now you're saying that you want no more balance changes?
*WOOPS! The weirdest thing happened. I swore in my post and found it mod edited. And a warning ended up on my account. No more swearing now!*
OH DEAR, Hugh doesn't know what a forum censor is. If you have an issue with swearing, you make it delete the word entirely instead of just making it **** it and then complaining about people saying things the forum let them say. Hugh, I know you're a mod (or admin, w/e) but you can't punish people for swearing when it's already been censored, especially when you could have stopped it appearing at all. In fact I'd go so far as to say you can't punish anyone for posting anything unless it's abusing another person directly or spreading illegal information, or misinformation. Everything else is opinion which you are not right to squash. If you'd really had a problem with JUST the swearing in my post, you'd have removed the *'s ONLY and left the rest of the sentence where it was. That was a really low move and speaks volumes about your opinion of freedom of speech.
so.... all i see are "balances" that only nerf aliens...? drifters are rarely used in pubs (although more are catching on), why would they mess with them now that they are slower and have less armor? were crags too OP? I missed that somewhere while playing the game.. and reading what people that have already posted. Can a playtester help me out on this one?
"Players didn't use them in public play so they weren't OP". No. You DO NOT, EVER, balance around player ignorance. You balance around game play as intended, if people don't know how to play like that, that's their problem. Learn to play correctly.
And now you're saying that you want no more balance changes?
I have no idea where you got that from, as I am one of the few people who actually would like the game to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch because it's in such an awful state of balance right now.
As far saying "L2P" it's not trash, you can't say "oh I never use mucous or rarely do so it's not OP and shouldn't be nerfed. If people had been using them as much as they were able to then you wouldn't have an issue. You don't just leave it there out of good faith that "na, no way he'd spam mucous everywhere, that'd be really OP and unfair". This isn't about people being unskilled, this is about not balancing AROUND the unskilled.
OK so I take that as don't balance for ''unskilled'' players I.e. pubs and only for those skilled? again, retention issues and elitism.
There are two problems with balancing for "player retention". The first is that if a player actually hangs around because of it, when they finally begin to understand the game they'll begin to see the hundreds of flaws it has and resent the game because of it. Trust me, been there. It's better to have a good game to start with and stick around anyway in the long run. In fact, all "balancing for player retention" would do is retain players for a little longer, not indefinitely, as they'll begin to hate the game and leave. At least if it was a good game anyway, you may have lost some players near the beginning, but the ones that stayed are going to stay around a looong time.
The other issue is it completely ruins long term play, ie. competitive or higher level pub play.
You cannot balance for bad players / unskilled players.
I"ll give you an extremley simplistic example...
Assumption: Engagement of 1 LMG (0 armour / 0 weapons) vs Vanilla Skulk
1. Player plays NS2 for the first time
2. As a marine, player finds it difficult to kill a vanilla skulk using all 50 of the LMG bullets to kill 1 skulk
3. The game is currently balanced for this type of engagement where a marine needs 50 bullets to kill a skulk
4. After 2 months, that same player is able to kill the skulk in 25 bullets, leaving another 25 bullets for a second skulk. Effectively killing 2 skulks with 1 LMG clip. The game is now unbalanced in marine favour
If the game was balanced assuming players needed the whole clip to kill a skulk, but there was a group of players who were far and beyond their ability its affectively balanced for bad players but as soon as you attain any skill the game becomes unbalanced.
Player retention is effectivly void as the game is broken as soon as your skill level increases. The more it increases the more imbalance occurs.
You can only balance from the top down... Balancing from the bottom up assuming players are bad / do the wrong thing does not work. You need to balance assuming people are playing the game with all its features, strategies and game knowledge.
FYI: Starcraft / Quake have always been balanced from top down rather than bottom up.
Yep. UWE can't go a single update without making alien khammander more and more garbage and boring to play. I kind of wonder do they have balance tests with lemmings on the marines and Div1 players on the Alien team or something.
Why not just remove aliens from the game and make it marine versus marine? It'll end up that way in several months at this rate. Hard enough to find someone who wants to command on aliens as is, and it's only going to get worse -Every- single "Balance" patch.
Call me negative if you want, but i'd like to direct you to take a look at every single notable balance patch. marines have had like 4 nerfs in the past 10 balance patches compared to the aliens 30+. and the only ones worth noting for marines would be shotguns(depending on how you look at it) and nano shield(which really should be removed from the game)
Unless your a div 1 / premier player, do you really think your in a position to make a call on balance? Every single div 1 player who I have spoken to hates the mass heal, pve, drifter meta game at the moment. So go figure...
Unless your a div 1 / premier player, do you really think your in a position to make a call on balance? Every single div 1 player who I have spoken to hates the mass heal, pve, drifter meta game at the moment. So go figure...
As much as we shouldn't be balancing for bad players, and that I agree that most balance changes that benefit the comp scene is usually good for the pub scene too, I do think that just because you're not a pro, doesn't mean your opinion is invalid (although if someone is legit making comments like "this thing shouldn't have been nerfed because I don't use it (properly)" then maybe their opinion is invalid). I do agree with all of those things though.
However, I do find it ironic that PVE is so frowned upon by pros on the topic of whips, but the comp scene so heavily endorsed structure walling that it lost it's stigma as an exploit from ns1 and became a 'legit' tactic. I argued endlessly against it at the early stages when it was becoming adopted more and more and felt like I was taking crazy pills after seeing how much support it had. I suppose it has become less and less relevant in the metagame (if i'm using that word correctly), so it doesn't really matter thaaat much.
edit: I do agree that. mucous can b op but I really only see mucous being an issue in comp problem. either way, they nerfed drifters when the issues were drifters being in the way they and op mucous. lowering speed and armor doesn't address the real drifter issues.
It would seem that the devs opinion is not that mucous in and of itself is OP, but that there was little risk/reward mechanics going on. Because drifters can be hard to hit sometimes due to their spazzy movement, and also the fact it's using mucous on itself constantly, they very rarely die in teamfights. In my experience it can be very easy to have a drifter stay alive the entire match, and just micro it around winning ALL the engagements.
But now at least it's a little smoother on the movement side and thus easier to hit, and because it has 0 armour, it can't constantly mucous itself to immortality
Date: 11/22/13
Time: 06:15:37:
Build 260
Windows 7 64-bit (build 7601)
Connected to Steam servers
Web server running at localhost:80
Downloading mods
VAC Enabled
Finished downloading and installing mods
Mounting mod from /game_servers/Current_Servers/ns2co/mods/m5f35045_1381216139/
**********************************
**********************************
CombatMod Mod Active Setting is: activated
CombatMod Player Threshold is 0 players.
CombatMod Last Map ended with 0 players.
CombatMod is now: activated
CombatMod Time Limit is now: 25 minutes.
CombatMod Overtime is now: activated
CombatMod Power Point Damage is now: activated
CombatMod Default Winner is now: Aliens
CombatMod Comp Mode is now: deactivated
It ONLY occurs WHEN RUNNING COMBAT MOD. However, it apparently has nothing to do with combat mod. So I have been told that basically UWE has to fix this or combat mod will not work. I do not understand how this is but please fix this in the next build b/c apparently nothing other than a new build can fix this.
This post has not much to do with the current fixes, patch 260 is a good patch, apart from balance changes arguably. Good job there.
You can only balance from the top down...
And here is the flaw: Normally the interests of casual player more or less in coincide with those of a comp player. But hell not in this game, the opinions are drifting apart.
It's beeing balanced for what 6v6, 8v8? However all puplic servers that are constantly full are 10v10 or higher. The comp compliant servers stay void. Also a lot of atmosphere elements are lost, no sounds in hiveroom, no music, Marines mutate to kangoroo. Features become useless fillers (Babblers, Craig, Web, ... ). It all became a 0815 shooter / chopper on steroids, where only superaggressiv or superlucky playstyle pays out.
And you wonder why the player count goes down?
Normally the interests of casual player more or less in coincide with those of a comp player. But hell not in this game, the opinions are drifting apart.
How so? Gimme specifics and back up this statement. Where is balance being addressed for comp players that doesn't have a positive effect on pub balance?
Normally the interests of casual player more or less in coincide with those of a comp player. But hell not in this game, the opinions are drifting apart.
How so? Gimme specifics and back up this statement. Where is balance being addressed for comp players that doesn't have a positive effect on pub balance?
The no res for commanders. Does anyone seriously think that this effects balance in pubs? I understand why it is needed in a pro environment but not in pubs where it just makes things less exciting.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2013
@zeroibis
Yes it does.
Its even easier in pubs for a gorge commander to step out of the hive and go build his own expansions / RTs without the help of any other team mates - effectively allowing the entire team to purely be an offensive force and not assist in building or conquering the map. This is because the average pub marine team is not going to be as aggressive or offensive in regards to putting early game pressure on those harvesters.. allowing the commander gorge to build without concern.
Which obviously has its balance downsides given the fact that this game is about map control, obviously..
@zeroibis
Yes it does.
Its even easier in pubs for a gorge commander to step out of the hive and go build his own expansions / RTs without the help of any other team mates - effectively allowing the entire team to purely be an offensive force and not assist in building or conquering the map. This is because the average pub marine team is not going to be as aggressive or offensive in regards to putting early game pressure on those harvesters.. allowing the commander gorge to build without concern.
Which obviously has its balance downsides given the fact that this game is about map control, obviously..
Pub balance is always considered.
The other side of the sword is that marine commander can keep buying mines... Also that is a good amount of time for the alien com to be out of the hive is there really nothing else for him to be doing in there?
I am not really saying this is a major problem but something that I do not see as a needed change in pubs compared to the other balance changes over the last year. This is the only balance change I can point to and say that in a pub environment it will not effect the outcome of the game.
On another note does anyone know how to stop that error message I reported or how to suppress error messages?
Normally the interests of casual player more or less in coincide with those of a comp player. But hell not in this game, the opinions are drifting apart.
How so? Gimme specifics and back up this statement. Where is balance being addressed for comp players that doesn't have a positive effect on pub balance?
uhhh look at the entire thread. it has people agreeing with you and disagreeing with you. and somehow we've stayed reasonably friendly lol sorta odd I say
The no res for commanders. Does anyone seriously think that this effects balance in pubs? I understand why it is needed in a pro environment but not in pubs where it just makes things less exciting.
Tbh, I think that no res for commanders is both a detriment to both pub and competitive play. I would be legitimately interested to hear somebody explain the logic behind introducing this in the first place (I assume something to do with gorge walls?). Regardless, you think it doesn't effect pub balance then at least it's not having a negative effect (although the way I posed my question said positive, damnit).
uhhh look at the entire thread. it has people agreeing with you and disagreeing with you. and somehow we've stayed reasonably friendly lol sorta odd I say
Wut.
I didn't even write anything to agree or disagree with. I merely asked a question. I'm not even sure what this comment means. If you are somehow confused with the concept of backing up blanket statements with intelligent thought, then perhaps this isn't the place for you.
The no res for commanders. Does anyone seriously think that this effects balance in pubs? I understand why it is needed in a pro environment but not in pubs where it just makes things less exciting.
Tbh, I think that no res for commanders is both a detriment to both pub and competitive play. I would be legitimately interested to hear somebody explain the logic behind introducing this in the first place (I assume something to do with gorge walls?). Regardless, you think it doesn't effect pub balance then at least it's not having a negative effect (although the way I posed my question said positive, damnit).
uhhh look at the entire thread. it has people agreeing with you and disagreeing with you. and somehow we've stayed reasonably friendly lol sorta odd I say
Wut.
I didn't even write anything to agree or disagree with. I merely asked a question. I'm not even sure what this comment means. If you are somehow confused with the concept of backing up blanket statements with intelligent thought, then perhaps this isn't the place for you.
maybe I said it was friendly too early. I made the assumption that you had an opinion by how you said what you said. and your question has been discussed in this entire thread...
maybe I said it was friendly too early. I made the assumption that you had an opinion by how you said what you said. and your question has been discussed in this entire thread...
You already disagreed with my post before I wrote my reply, which was just a question and contained no actual opinionated comment to disagree with. So if you initially thought it was a friendly question, then why did you disagree? (I don't even know why somebody would click agree).
I do have an opinion - people should back up generalized comments about game issues with facts and present them in an intelligent way (that outlines problems that are actually representative of how the game works) or be prepared to have people assume that such statements are unfounded if challenged on this. I see the discussion in the rest of the thread - but I was specifically asking the person I quoted to back up their comments. Having seen your comments in this thread earlier, I already know that you don't have anything intelligent to say. I was hoping that he did.
Tbh, I think that no res for commanders is both a detriment to both pub and competitive play. I would be legitimately interested to hear somebody explain the logic behind introducing this in the first place (I assume something to do with gorge walls?). Regardless, you think it doesn't effect pub balance then at least it's not having a negative effect (although the way I posed my question said positive, damnit).
I don't love the change either, but the reasoning for it was to lessen the impact of the fadeball which up until reinforced was an insta-gg in most competitive settings. At that point it was typical for comp teams to have their comm go gorge so they could have 1 lerk and 4 fades. By removing the possibility of having the comm gorge the hope was that most teams would have a player go gorge, reducing the number of fades that ultimately showed up
Of course sewlek nerfed the fades to hell in Reinforced anyway so it ended up being somewhat redundant
maybe I said it was friendly too early. I made the assumption that you had an opinion by how you said what you said. and your question has been discussed in this entire thread...
You already disagreed with my post before I wrote my reply, which was just a question and contained no actual opinionated comment to disagree with. So if you initially thought it was a friendly question, then why did you disagree? (I don't even know why somebody would click agree).
I do have an opinion - people should back up generalized comments about game issues with facts and present them in an intelligent way (that outlines problems that are actually representative of how the game works) or be prepared to have people assume that such statements are unfounded if challenged on this. I see the discussion in the rest of the thread - but I was specifically asking the person I quoted to back up their comments. Having seen your comments in this thread earlier, I already know that you don't have anything intelligent to say. I was hoping that he did.
lol and the insults continue.. next I may flag you as a troll! *shudders*
Removing commander res and placing a no-res for a minute nerf on commanders is a terrible bandaid fix to a problem they should PROBABLY devote some actual time to. If the khammander can place harvesters across the map, gorge, then run around and get those harvesters up as well as drop and link tunnels. Then that beyond a doubt shows how unimportant the alien khammander really is. If running around as a gorge is more helpful than actually being in the hive. What does that say about khammanding? I'm going to let that sink in.
Not to mention if the khammander really wanted to, he could just buy a gorge egg. it'd be cheaper than purchasing 2 drifters, not to mention you'd be able to expand faster since you could help build up the cysts, which drifters don't do.
Removing commander res and placing a no-res for a minute nerf on commanders is a terrible bandaid fix to a problem they should PROBABLY devote some actual time to. If the khammander can place harvesters across the map, gorge, then run around and get those harvesters up as well as drop and link tunnels. Then that beyond a doubt shows how unimportant the alien khammander really is. If running around as a gorge is more helpful than actually being in the hive. What does that say about khammanding? I'm going to let that sink in.
Not to mention if the khammander really wanted to, he could just buy a gorge egg. it'd be cheaper than purchasing 2 drifters, not to mention you'd be able to expand faster since you could help build up the cysts, which drifters don't do.
Pretty much every balance move that's been done in the last 11 builds has been to band-aid the problems caused by having an alien khamander. If you were to remove him, you could balance the game much more quickly and easily I guarentee it. Time to get disagreed with by a bunch of people with hardons for huge amounts of useless tres and imbalance.
EDIT: The kham means no pres sink for aliens and an infinite supply of useless shit from the tres bank. Make gorges have to drop harvesters and hives and I guarantee you can start making life forms more powerful and bringing back skilled pvp play.
lol and the insults continue.. next I may flag you as a troll! *shudders*
Oh no! Flagged as a troll by a threadshitter :O I'm going to have to rent a storage locker to put all of these fucks I give. I simply don't have enough room in my house to keep them all.
The only thing insulting I said was that you had nothing intelligent to say. This can easily be proven incorrect by actually saying something intelligent.
I don't love the change either, but the reasoning for it was to lessen the impact of the fadeball which up until reinforced was an insta-gg in most competitive settings. At that point it was typical for comp teams to have their comm go gorge so they could have 1 lerk and 4 fades. By removing the possibility of having the comm gorge the hope was that most teams would have a player go gorge, reducing the number of fades that ultimately showed up
Of course sewlek nerfed the fades to hell in Reinforced anyway so it ended up being somewhat redundant
Ah ok. With that reasoning it does actually make sense that (going back to my initial question) this particular balance change benefits competitive balance but not pubs - purely because there's more players per team, and thus you can still have the khamm in the hive, and a gorge while still maintaining a pretty sizeable fadeball.
Although there are still counterpoints to the assertion that pub balance suffers as a result of this. You're right that the fade nerf makes it a little redundant, and G3's right that you can just drop an egg anyway. Also the comparitive effectiveness of mass fading is lower in a balanced pub game than it is in a competitive one, due to the fact that there's simply less coordination (greater chance that individual fades are off doing their own thing).
I guess although it's hiiighly debatable that it's even relevant enough, it's nice to actually see a kinda legit example of balancing for comp negatively effecting pubs rather than "I don't use mucous membrane so I'm irrationally pissed off that it has been nerfed. UWE doesn't care about casuals". I'm still of the opinion that usually balancing for the higher tiers is a good thing for the pub scene, but I was interested in playing devils advocate to prove myself wrong -as well as calling out the dude that was critical to actually add reasoning to his complaints, in the hopes that he does actually have some too. However, you and ZERO already covered it nicely (and I thank you for your input, as well as Iron for his counterpoints) - although I welcome any additional and informed discussion from him that might shed some light on other issues where competitive balance changes are detrimental to pubs.
And yeah Ghost I totally agree that the existence of alien khamm causes glaring issues to to the lack of a pres sink for field units. Whilst a relevant point, it's here to stay even if we have to suffer these bandaid fixes because of it - so let's not add that to the circlejerk or else we'll be here all day
And yeah Ghost I totally agree that the existence of alien khamm causes glaring issues to to the lack of a pres sink for field units. Whilst a relevant point, it's here to stay even if we have to suffer these bandaid fixes because of it - so let's not add that to the circlejerk or else we'll be here all day
No, let's. I don't understand why we should have to just sit back and accept that. Yeah you're right it probably isn't going to get changed, but I'm sure as hell not going to stop complaining about it until it's somehow made balanced without also ruining the game, and I really can't think of a way to do that.
After just skimming through the discussion, why doesnt UWE create 2 separate game balances. One for Public Play and one for competetive play like in L4D2 where you have CONFOGL that the competitive scene uses. Or the competitive scene could unite under one balance mod like CONFOGL and use that for the competitive scene. UWE can then focus on the Public scene of the game and balance for that.
Or is that something that has been discussed already at an earlier point?
Comments
There are two problems with balancing for "player retention". The first is that if a player actually hangs around because of it, when they finally begin to understand the game they'll begin to see the hundreds of flaws it has and resent the game because of it. Trust me, been there. It's better to have a good game to start with and stick around anyway in the long run. In fact, all "balancing for player retention" would do is retain players for a little longer, not indefinitely, as they'll begin to hate the game and leave. At least if it was a good game anyway, you may have lost some players near the beginning, but the ones that stayed are going to stay around a looong time.
The other issue is it completely ruins long term play, ie. competitive or higher level pub play.
I"ll give you an extremley simplistic example...
Assumption: Engagement of 1 LMG (0 armour / 0 weapons) vs Vanilla Skulk
1. Player plays NS2 for the first time
2. As a marine, player finds it difficult to kill a vanilla skulk using all 50 of the LMG bullets to kill 1 skulk
3. The game is currently balanced for this type of engagement where a marine needs 50 bullets to kill a skulk
4. After 2 months, that same player is able to kill the skulk in 25 bullets, leaving another 25 bullets for a second skulk. Effectively killing 2 skulks with 1 LMG clip. The game is now unbalanced in marine favour
If the game was balanced assuming players needed the whole clip to kill a skulk, but there was a group of players who were far and beyond their ability its affectively balanced for bad players but as soon as you attain any skill the game becomes unbalanced.
Player retention is effectivly void as the game is broken as soon as your skill level increases. The more it increases the more imbalance occurs.
You can only balance from the top down... Balancing from the bottom up assuming players are bad / do the wrong thing does not work. You need to balance assuming people are playing the game with all its features, strategies and game knowledge.
FYI: Starcraft / Quake have always been balanced from top down rather than bottom up.
Why not just remove aliens from the game and make it marine versus marine? It'll end up that way in several months at this rate. Hard enough to find someone who wants to command on aliens as is, and it's only going to get worse -Every- single "Balance" patch.
Call me negative if you want, but i'd like to direct you to take a look at every single notable balance patch. marines have had like 4 nerfs in the past 10 balance patches compared to the aliens 30+. and the only ones worth noting for marines would be shotguns(depending on how you look at it) and nano shield(which really should be removed from the game)
Isn't modding kind of, well, cheating?
As much as we shouldn't be balancing for bad players, and that I agree that most balance changes that benefit the comp scene is usually good for the pub scene too, I do think that just because you're not a pro, doesn't mean your opinion is invalid (although if someone is legit making comments like "this thing shouldn't have been nerfed because I don't use it (properly)" then maybe their opinion is invalid). I do agree with all of those things though.
However, I do find it ironic that PVE is so frowned upon by pros on the topic of whips, but the comp scene so heavily endorsed structure walling that it lost it's stigma as an exploit from ns1 and became a 'legit' tactic. I argued endlessly against it at the early stages when it was becoming adopted more and more and felt like I was taking crazy pills after seeing how much support it had. I suppose it has become less and less relevant in the metagame (if i'm using that word correctly), so it doesn't really matter thaaat much.
It would seem that the devs opinion is not that mucous in and of itself is OP, but that there was little risk/reward mechanics going on. Because drifters can be hard to hit sometimes due to their spazzy movement, and also the fact it's using mucous on itself constantly, they very rarely die in teamfights. In my experience it can be very easy to have a drifter stay alive the entire match, and just micro it around winning ALL the engagements.
But now at least it's a little smoother on the movement side and thus easier to hit, and because it has 0 armour, it can't constantly mucous itself to immortality
Time: 06:15:37:
Build 260
Windows 7 64-bit (build 7601)
Connected to Steam servers
Web server running at localhost:80
Downloading mods
VAC Enabled
Finished downloading and installing mods
Mounting mod from
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CombatMod Mod Active Setting is: activated
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CombatMod is now: activated
CombatMod Time Limit is now: 25 minutes.
CombatMod Overtime is now: activated
CombatMod Power Point Damage is now: activated
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CombatMod Comp Mode is now: deactivated
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Error: lua/Utility.lua:1949: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'num' (a nil value)
[Server] Script Error #1: lua/Utility.lua:1949: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'num' (a nil value)
Call stack:
#1: round lua/Utility.lua:1949
num = nil
idp = nil
mult = 1
#2: SetTotalKills lua/ScoringMixin.lua:253
self = ReadyRoomPlayer-2987 {activeWeaponId=-1, alive=true, animateAngles=false, animateDistance=false, animatePosition=false, animateYOffset=false, animationBlend=0.20000000298023, animationGraphIndex=42, animationGraphNode=12, animationSequence2=-1, animationSequence=0, animationSpeed2=1, animationSpeed=1, animationStart2=0, animationStart=54.737155914307, armor=0, baseYaw=0, blockPersonalResources=false, bodyYaw=0, bodyYawRun=0, cameraDistance=0, clientIndex=1, collisionRep=0, communicationStatus=1, countingDown=false, crouching=false, currentOrderId=-1, darwinMode=false, desiredCameraAngles=cdata, desiredCameraDistance=0, desiredCameraPosition=cdata, desiredCameraYOffset=0, flinchIntensity=0, followingTransition=false, fov=90, frozen=false, fullPrecisionOrigin=cdata, gameEffectsFlags=0, gameStarted=false, giveDamageTime=0, gravityTrigger=0, health=100, healthIgnored=false, isMale=false, isMoveBlocked=false, isOnEntity=false, isUsing=false, jumpHandled=false, jumping=false, layer1AnimationBlend=0, layer1AnimationGraphNode=134, layer1AnimationSequence2=-1, layer1AnimationSequence=-1, layer1AnimationSpeed2=1, layer1AnimationSpeed=1, layer1AnimationStart2=0, layer1AnimationStart=0, locationId=1, maxArmor=0, maxHealth=100, mode=1, modeTime=-1, modelIndex=66, moveButtonPressed=false, moveTransition=false, onGround=true, physicsGroup=8, physicsGroupFilterMask=0, physicsType=1, playerLevel=0, playerSkill=0, primaryAttackLastFrame=false, processMove=true, pushImpulse=cdata, pushTime=0, quickSwitchSlot=1, reinforcedTierNum=0, resetMouse=0, resources=0, runningBodyYaw=0, secondaryAttackLastFrame=false, shoulderPadIndex=0, slowAmount=0, standingBodyYaw=0, startCameraAngles=cdata, startCameraDistance=0, startCameraPosition=cdata, startCameraYOffset=0, stepAmount=0, stepStartTime=0, syncHealth=false, teamNumber=0, teamResources=0, techId=43, timeGroundAllowed=0, timeGroundTouched=0, timeLastHealed=0, timeLastMenu=0, timeOfCrouchChange=0, timeOfLastJump=0, timeOfLastPhase=0, timeOfLastUse=0, timeOfLastWeaponSwitch=0, timeUntilResourceBlock=0, transitionDuration=0, transitionStart=0, tweeningFunction=1, upgrade10=1, upgrade1=1, upgrade2=1, upgrade3=1, upgrade4=1, upgrade5=1, upgrade6=1, upgrade7=1, upgrade8=1, upgrade9=1, variant=2, velocity=cdata, velocityLength=0, velocityPitch=0, velocityYaw=0, viewModelId=582, viewPitch=-0, viewRoll=0, viewYaw=0, weaponsWeight=0 }
totalKills = nil
#3: lua/PlayerRanking.lua:314
playerUpdated = false
currentPlayerNum = 1
(for generator) = function
(for state) = {1=ReadyRoomPlayer-2987 {activeWeaponId=-1, alive=true, animateAngles=false, animateDistance=false, animatePosition=false, animateYOffset=false, animationBlend=0.20000000298023, animationGraphIndex=42, animationGraphNode=12, animationSequence2=-1, animationSequence=0, animationSpeed2=1, animationSpeed=1, animationStart2=0, animationStart=54.737155914307, armor=0, baseYaw=0, blockPersonalResources=false, bodyYaw=0, bodyYawRun=0, cameraDistance=0, clientIndex=1, collisionRep=0, communicationStatus=1, countingDown=false, crouching=false, currentOrderId=-1, darwinMode=false, desiredCameraAngles=cdata, desiredCameraDistance=0, desiredCameraPosition=cdata, desiredCameraYOffset=0, flinchIntensity=0, followingTransition=false, fov=90, frozen=false, fullPrecisionOrigin=cdata, gameEffectsFlags=0, gameStarted=false, giveDamageTime=0, gravityTrigger=0, health=100, healthIgnored=false, isMale=false, isMoveBlocked=false, isOnEntity=false, isUsing=false, jumpHandled=false, jumping=false, layer1AnimationBlend=0, layer1AnimationGraphNode=134, layer1AnimationSequence2=-1, layer1AnimationSequence=-1, layer1AnimationSpeed2=1, layer1AnimationSpeed=1, layer1AnimationStart2=0, layer1AnimationStart=0, locationId=1, maxArmor=0, maxHealth=100, mode=1, modeTime=-1, modelIndex=66, moveButtonPressed=false, moveTransition=false, onGround=true, physicsGroup=8, physicsGroupFilterMask=0, physicsType=1, playerLevel=0, playerSkill=0, primaryAttackLastFrame=false, processMove=true, pushImpulse=cdata, pushTime=0, quickSwitchSlot=1, reinforcedTierNum=0, resetMouse=0, resources=0, runningBodyYaw=0, secondaryAttackLastFrame=false, shoulderPadIndex=0, slowAmount=0, standingBodyYaw=0, startCameraAngles=cdata, startCameraDistance=0, startCameraPosition=cdata, startCameraYOffset=0, stepAmount=0, stepStartTime=0, syncHealth=false, teamNumber=0, teamResources=0, techId=43, timeGroundAllowed=0, timeGroundTouched=0, timeLastHealed=0, timeLastMenu=0, timeOfCrouchChange=0, timeOfLastJump=0, timeOfLastPhase=0, timeOfLastUse=0, timeOfLastWeaponSwitch=0, timeUntilReso... }
(for control) = 1
_ = 1
player = ReadyRoomPlayer-2987 {activeWeaponId=-1, alive=true, animateAngles=false, animateDistance=false, animatePosition=false, animateYOffset=false, animationBlend=0.20000000298023, animationGraphIndex=42, animationGraphNode=12, animationSequence2=-1, animationSequence=0, animationSpeed2=1, animationSpeed=1, animationStart2=0, animationStart=54.737155914307, armor=0, baseYaw=0, blockPersonalResources=false, bodyYaw=0, bodyYawRun=0, cameraDistance=0, clientIndex=1, collisionRep=0, communicationStatus=1, countingDown=false, crouching=false, currentOrderId=-1, darwinMode=false, desiredCameraAngles=cdata, desiredCameraDistance=0, desiredCameraPosition=cdata, desiredCameraYOffset=0, flinchIntensity=0, followingTransition=false, fov=90, frozen=false, fullPrecisionOrigin=cdata, gameEffectsFlags=0, gameStarted=false, giveDamageTime=0, gravityTrigger=0, health=100, healthIgnored=false, isMale=false, isMoveBlocked=false, isOnEntity=false, isUsing=false, jumpHandled=false, jumping=false, layer1AnimationBlend=0, layer1AnimationGraphNode=134, layer1AnimationSequence2=-1, layer1AnimationSequence=-1, layer1AnimationSpeed2=1, layer1AnimationSpeed=1, layer1AnimationStart2=0, layer1AnimationStart=0, locationId=1, maxArmor=0, maxHealth=100, mode=1, modeTime=-1, modelIndex=66, moveButtonPressed=false, moveTransition=false, onGround=true, physicsGroup=8, physicsGroupFilterMask=0, physicsType=1, playerLevel=0, playerSkill=0, primaryAttackLastFrame=false, processMove=true, pushImpulse=cdata, pushTime=0, quickSwitchSlot=1, reinforcedTierNum=0, resetMouse=0, resources=0, runningBodyYaw=0, secondaryAttackLastFrame=false, shoulderPadIndex=0, slowAmount=0, standingBodyYaw=0, startCameraAngles=cdata, startCameraDistance=0, startCameraPosition=cdata, startCameraYOffset=0, stepAmount=0, stepStartTime=0, syncHealth=false, teamNumber=0, teamResources=0, techId=43, timeGroundAllowed=0, timeGroundTouched=0, timeLastHealed=0, timeLastMenu=0, timeOfCrouchChange=0, timeOfLastJump=0, timeOfLastPhase=0, timeOfLastUse=0, timeOfLastWeaponSwitch=0, timeUntilResourceBlock=0, transitionDuration=0, transitionStart=0, tweeningFunction=1, upgrade10=1, upgrade1=1, upgrade2=1, upgrade3=1, upgrade4=1, upgrade5=1, upgrade6=1, upgrade7=1, upgrade8=1, upgrade9=1, variant=2, velocity=cdata, velocityLength=0, velocityPitch=0, velocityYaw=0, viewModelId=582, viewPitch=-0, viewRoll=0, viewYaw=0, weaponsWeight=0 }
client = ServerClient { }
steamId = 5083745
playerData = {badges= {1="constellation" }, steamId=5083745 }
It ONLY occurs WHEN RUNNING COMBAT MOD. However, it apparently has nothing to do with combat mod. So I have been told that basically UWE has to fix this or combat mod will not work. I do not understand how this is but please fix this in the next build b/c apparently nothing other than a new build can fix this.
And here is the flaw: Normally the interests of casual player more or less in coincide with those of a comp player. But hell not in this game, the opinions are drifting apart.
It's beeing balanced for what 6v6, 8v8? However all puplic servers that are constantly full are 10v10 or higher. The comp compliant servers stay void. Also a lot of atmosphere elements are lost, no sounds in hiveroom, no music, Marines mutate to kangoroo. Features become useless fillers (Babblers, Craig, Web, ... ). It all became a 0815 shooter / chopper on steroids, where only superaggressiv or superlucky playstyle pays out.
And you wonder why the player count goes down?
At least spoiler tag your log, seriously.
How so? Gimme specifics and back up this statement. Where is balance being addressed for comp players that doesn't have a positive effect on pub balance?
Oh did not even notice we had that option, sorry about that.
The no res for commanders. Does anyone seriously think that this effects balance in pubs? I understand why it is needed in a pro environment but not in pubs where it just makes things less exciting.
Yes it does.
Its even easier in pubs for a gorge commander to step out of the hive and go build his own expansions / RTs without the help of any other team mates - effectively allowing the entire team to purely be an offensive force and not assist in building or conquering the map. This is because the average pub marine team is not going to be as aggressive or offensive in regards to putting early game pressure on those harvesters.. allowing the commander gorge to build without concern.
Which obviously has its balance downsides given the fact that this game is about map control, obviously..
Pub balance is always considered.
The other side of the sword is that marine commander can keep buying mines... Also that is a good amount of time for the alien com to be out of the hive is there really nothing else for him to be doing in there?
I am not really saying this is a major problem but something that I do not see as a needed change in pubs compared to the other balance changes over the last year. This is the only balance change I can point to and say that in a pub environment it will not effect the outcome of the game.
On another note does anyone know how to stop that error message I reported or how to suppress error messages?
uhhh look at the entire thread. it has people agreeing with you and disagreeing with you. and somehow we've stayed reasonably friendly lol sorta odd I say
Tbh, I think that no res for commanders is both a detriment to both pub and competitive play. I would be legitimately interested to hear somebody explain the logic behind introducing this in the first place (I assume something to do with gorge walls?). Regardless, you think it doesn't effect pub balance then at least it's not having a negative effect (although the way I posed my question said positive, damnit).
Wut.
I didn't even write anything to agree or disagree with. I merely asked a question. I'm not even sure what this comment means. If you are somehow confused with the concept of backing up blanket statements with intelligent thought, then perhaps this isn't the place for you.
maybe I said it was friendly too early. I made the assumption that you had an opinion by how you said what you said. and your question has been discussed in this entire thread...
You already disagreed with my post before I wrote my reply, which was just a question and contained no actual opinionated comment to disagree with. So if you initially thought it was a friendly question, then why did you disagree? (I don't even know why somebody would click agree).
I do have an opinion - people should back up generalized comments about game issues with facts and present them in an intelligent way (that outlines problems that are actually representative of how the game works) or be prepared to have people assume that such statements are unfounded if challenged on this. I see the discussion in the rest of the thread - but I was specifically asking the person I quoted to back up their comments. Having seen your comments in this thread earlier, I already know that you don't have anything intelligent to say. I was hoping that he did.
I don't love the change either, but the reasoning for it was to lessen the impact of the fadeball which up until reinforced was an insta-gg in most competitive settings. At that point it was typical for comp teams to have their comm go gorge so they could have 1 lerk and 4 fades. By removing the possibility of having the comm gorge the hope was that most teams would have a player go gorge, reducing the number of fades that ultimately showed up
Of course sewlek nerfed the fades to hell in Reinforced anyway so it ended up being somewhat redundant
lol and the insults continue.. next I may flag you as a troll! *shudders*
Not to mention if the khammander really wanted to, he could just buy a gorge egg. it'd be cheaper than purchasing 2 drifters, not to mention you'd be able to expand faster since you could help build up the cysts, which drifters don't do.
Pretty much every balance move that's been done in the last 11 builds has been to band-aid the problems caused by having an alien khamander. If you were to remove him, you could balance the game much more quickly and easily I guarentee it. Time to get disagreed with by a bunch of people with hardons for huge amounts of useless tres and imbalance.
EDIT: The kham means no pres sink for aliens and an infinite supply of useless shit from the tres bank. Make gorges have to drop harvesters and hives and I guarantee you can start making life forms more powerful and bringing back skilled pvp play.
Oh no! Flagged as a troll by a threadshitter :O I'm going to have to rent a storage locker to put all of these fucks I give. I simply don't have enough room in my house to keep them all.
The only thing insulting I said was that you had nothing intelligent to say. This can easily be proven incorrect by actually saying something intelligent.
Ah ok. With that reasoning it does actually make sense that (going back to my initial question) this particular balance change benefits competitive balance but not pubs - purely because there's more players per team, and thus you can still have the khamm in the hive, and a gorge while still maintaining a pretty sizeable fadeball.
Although there are still counterpoints to the assertion that pub balance suffers as a result of this. You're right that the fade nerf makes it a little redundant, and G3's right that you can just drop an egg anyway. Also the comparitive effectiveness of mass fading is lower in a balanced pub game than it is in a competitive one, due to the fact that there's simply less coordination (greater chance that individual fades are off doing their own thing).
I guess although it's hiiighly debatable that it's even relevant enough, it's nice to actually see a kinda legit example of balancing for comp negatively effecting pubs rather than "I don't use mucous membrane so I'm irrationally pissed off that it has been nerfed. UWE doesn't care about casuals". I'm still of the opinion that usually balancing for the higher tiers is a good thing for the pub scene, but I was interested in playing devils advocate to prove myself wrong -as well as calling out the dude that was critical to actually add reasoning to his complaints, in the hopes that he does actually have some too. However, you and ZERO already covered it nicely (and I thank you for your input, as well as Iron for his counterpoints) - although I welcome any additional and informed discussion from him that might shed some light on other issues where competitive balance changes are detrimental to pubs.
And yeah Ghost I totally agree that the existence of alien khamm causes glaring issues to to the lack of a pres sink for field units. Whilst a relevant point, it's here to stay even if we have to suffer these bandaid fixes because of it - so let's not add that to the circlejerk or else we'll be here all day
No, let's. I don't understand why we should have to just sit back and accept that. Yeah you're right it probably isn't going to get changed, but I'm sure as hell not going to stop complaining about it until it's somehow made balanced without also ruining the game, and I really can't think of a way to do that.
Or is that something that has been discussed already at an earlier point?