Classic Mod

xDragon

With the release of the NS1 source code, there is an opportunity to refine certain parts of the gameplay/balance in Classic to be even more similar to NS1. The main purpose of this thread is see what interest (if any!) is left, and to get an idea of what improvements people might like to see.

Also, I had been considering making a 'combat' version of classic, which would function similarly to the original combat in NS1. This would be integrated into classic itself and wouldn't be a separate mod.

Oh, as as an FYI for anything that are not sure what classic is, this is a link to the original thread - http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/121482

Nazo

Just thought I'd stop by to say im one of the couple who is still interested in this mod (and thankful you have been keeping it up-to-date) I join the server from time to time to try and attract some other people or join when theres only about 4 people

Also I think "Classic Combat" would be a great way for people who may not have played NS1 to slowly get into a "NS1 mindset" for normal Classic

(in the mod(s) you may want to make a small popup list of whats different [if that is possible]}

SamusDroid

I heard most of the complains about classic was the movement wasn't very good

xDragon

Well, movement is unfortunately subjective so its difficult to balance, but I do think the movement in classic is decent. It does lack a good bit of the precision that HL1 had, but a majority of that I think comes from having to simulate at 30hz instead of 60. I do think that some of the recent changes I have made have given me enough overhead to actually push the servers to 60hz, so I am hoping to continue to improve on that feel.

DC_Darkling

I keep a eye on it but its server is almost always empty or stacked with folk who for some reason dont wanna play classic.

Jekt

Haven't played this in so long.

I'd agree that movement is the biggest complaint from the uninitiated. People join and have no clue how to use the skulk and fade. It's not like vanilla NS2 is different in that aspect however. People also freak out when they can't sprint.

2 problems I have with classic atm is how finicky it is to place things on walls and ceilings as the gorge. Spamming jump and click generally lets you place it eventually.

Also how funny the HA looks. If it's possible to replace the gun viewmodels I would just say to use the exosuit assets in place of the original HA model. But then the aliens would see a minigun exo even if they have a shotgun I guess.

Would really like to play this with people who have a clue. Whenever I've seen a full server its been with rookie greens and commanders who wouldn't even drop a medpack in a regular game of ns2, let alone drop shotguns and HMGS.

ZEROibis

Well maybe if they can wiggle walk in place of the sprint they will be happy and we can enjoy ns1 movement as it was lol.

xDragon

Hmm what do you mean by finicky to place? Where it wont turn green allowing you to place? Or you just cant get it to turn green?

I'm going to double the placement range for all buildings but the hive in the next version, I lowered the range specifically because you could sorta 'throw' hives across the room before.

I might just make the HA use the standard marine model(s) with a green nanoshield like effect, The HA model causes some problems when it ragdolls.

coolitic

MUST. HAVE.

Im just worried if people will develop it right.

OnosFactory

Dude, removing the ability to throw Onos ragdolls around the map killed NS2, please, let the HAs bounce!

Jekt

xDragon wrote: »

Hmm what do you mean by finicky to place? Where it wont turn green allowing you to place? Or you just cant get it to turn green?

I'm going to double the placement range for all buildings but the hive in the next version, I lowered the range specifically because you could sorta 'throw' hives across the room before.

I might just make the HA use the standard marine model(s) with a green nanoshield like effect, The HA model causes some problems when it ragdolls.

Green nanoshield is a great idea I think.

Also here is what I meant about the placement being finnicky. Some areas where you think you should be able to place you can't, other times it swaps between red and green state really quick. You can generally place it by spamming space and clicking which is what I do in the video to get those incorrect orientations.

Maybe look at Scatters no commanders mod. You can place marine structures on walls and stuff in that and I didn't notice any problems trying it out last week. Maybe it has the same problems.

xDragon

Yea originally I had wanted to prevent people from placing buildings on walls/ceilings, so that people wouldnt hide shades in some random spot that's hard to find. So the gorge actually ends up using the commander build logic which is why its sometimes awkward. I will probably change that back which will allow you to build all over again.

xDragon

Ok I updated classic for B263. I would have posted it earlier as it didnt take me long to finish that part, but I was halfway through adding a combat mod to classic also, so I decided to wait a little longer to finish a rough initial version of that. The mechanics of it and some other stuff will most likely change, but the basics are there. Patch notes below:

NS2c Patch 16

Big Features:
- Added 'Combat' mode similar to NS1's combat. By default this activates on any map with co_ in its name. Mode can also be manually changed by server admins using sv_gamemode. (This is an initial version, so is subject to further tweaks/refinement).
- Added support for B263.

Changes
- Change many marine structures to be fully animated client side.
- Reworked alien upgrades system so that upgrades do not need to be repurchased each time you evolve.
- Disabled 'HeavyArmor' standin model, added green nanoshield effect to standard marines to signify heavy armor.
- Added hit knockback and viewpunch, modeled after NS1.
- Implemented AirMove cap from NS1, caps speed when over 3x base move speed.
- Hive type can now be voted for once hive has been dropped, and can be selected before hive has finished building.
- Changed default move rate for Classic to 60/s.
- Jetpack takeoff clears any slows.

Bug Fixes
- Fixed alien spectator not recieving updates on time remaining before spawning.
- Fixed issue with grenades not being able to detonate right away.
- Fixed issue with bilebomb and acid rocket causing them to detonate in your face, or not detonate at all.
- Fixed upgrade replacement penalty time not applying.
- Changed gorge building placement for Crag, Shift, Shade, Whip and Hydra back to allowing placement on wall/ceilings.
- Lowered Fade Carapace down to 220 from 250.
- Tweaked alien upgrade HUD icons to better align with actual upgrade status.
- Fixed issue with landing impact not being calculated correctly.
- Fixed issue with web model rendering incorrectly during placement.

Balance Changes
- Adjusted jetpack fuel usage and reworked movement to be closer to NS1.
- Increased Catpack research time from 15 to 25 seconds.
- Increased Turret Factory upgrade time from 30 to 45 seconds.
- Increased sentry build time from 7 to 9 seconds.
- Increased SiegeCannon build time from 10 to 11 seconds.
- Lowered replacing upgrade penalty time from 6 to 4 seconds.
- Increased energy cost to drop structures from 5 to 10.
- Increased drop range of all structures but hive from 3 to 6.

Nazo

Bit of feedback:

There seems to be a bug with the shotgun where bullets wont travel if you try shooting looking at long distances (Example vid below)



Also aliens just seem overall slower (Airmove cap? / Edit -> Move rate change?)

And the main movement complaint i have heard from everyone (NS1 veteran and newbies to NS2C alike) movment feels much more "floaty."


The way I like to explane "floaty" is that every character seems to jump pretty high and you stay airborne a good bit (because gravity is too low maybe?)

Sewlek

my biggest problem was the skulk movement when touching a wall. it felt extremely weird and unexpected, maybe im just too used to ns2 and forgot how ns1 worked

xDragon

Shotgun in classic has a maximum range, so after a certain point that is normal. I dont think any movement speeds changed except for the fades slightly, the airmove cap really only affects jetpack, fades and leaping skulks. Gravity is probably a little low atm because I didnt scale it to match after I converted the values from NS1, so that's something I should take a look at, along with fade's base speed and possibly the marines.

Soul_Rider

The gravity in NS2 is very light and floaty. I discovered this myself in Proving Grounds, I had to greatly increase the gravity settings to get a realistic fall when jumping as when you remove the slow downs on jump, it becomes very apparent how unnatural the setting is in NS2.

xDragon

I published a small patch today to fix a couple issues, I had found that fade blink wasnt calculating energy drain correctly, so the moverate increase doubled the energy drain rate. I also increased gravity (still less than vanilla NS2), but the jump heights and timing more closely match NS1.

Fixed bug with Blink not being calculated independently from moverate, caused fade blink energy consumption to double with last patch.
Changed Gravity constant to match scaling values applied to other movement variables from NS1.
Increased marine and fade movement speeds slightly.
Fixed skulk crouching not disabling wallwalking.

Jekt

Tooltip for Ghost is saying something about dodging 50% damage. I thought this up was related to visibility on marine minimap.

xDragon

Nope i changed it, it basically allows you to dodge up to 50% of your HPs worth of damage from a single attack (basically soft shotgun counter).

CyberKun

I get that the mod is made to emulate the classic gameplay, but if you are going to mod it even once to make the game play better, there is one thing that should be done. Skulk movement should be using the current NS2 movement. They play and feeling horrible, and the average Marines are used to super fast zoom zoom Slulks. Even if the movement is only half NS1/NS2, it should work out much better.

Seeing the Aliens lose 7 times in a row regardless of who it gets is a bad sign. While one can say it is just not being used to the movement, it is not that alone.

xDragon

I'm pretty sure its people not used to the movement in all honesty, and playing the alien lifeforms. Skulk movement speed in classic is not much slower than ns2, probably less than 1 m/s.

CyberKun

It is not the speed, it is the mobility. Skulks play like bricks, and I do know how they are supposed to move in theory. How they move in practice is completely different.

Jekt

Have to agree that classic would be better received by most if it had the same standard NS2 alien movement.

xDragon

I have an idea regarding that which I thought of recently when fixing up a couple things so watermod would work, I might explore that option soon but need to make sure certain parts are reasonably possible, and possible without sacrificing too much performance... but it would let me switch between 'classic' and vanilla movement code easily (could be changed midgame even).

xDragon

Alright so I got most of this working, and decided (for now) to make it a client side toggle.
- Changed advancedmovement option to toggle between a re-created 'Vanilla' NS2 movement system, and the original 'Classic' movement system. This is something that can be toggled by each user independently currently.

Not everything is identical, but most things should feel pretty familiar. I am most concerned about how people feel about skulk/fade.

IeptBarakat

Being able to have Classic and Classic Combat on the same server is amazing, wish more people would play it.

Also I haven't seen it yet ingame but for"- Added hit knockback and viewpunch, modeled after NS1." There was also a bit of that for fall damage, including the fall damage sound.

Nazo

Not sure if this can be improved on much; The ability to switch between NS1 and NS2 movment is really nice, but I noticed (especially with the skulk) it seams you can move alot faster/gain more speed useing NS2 wall jumps than you can Bhop'ing (Not sure if you could increase momentum gained by bhop'ing slightly)

I tried to make an example video (I should probably remake it with debug speed on)

Also it seams alot easier to bhop as a marine in NS2C than in NS1

Im no master Bhop'er but the few times I get it right are pretty crazy (and those were just on flat surfaces)

xDragon

Yea there is an issue currently which is causing jumping along a flat surface to slow you (for skulk bhop). For Marine, I seem to have broken some of my impact calculations so I need to fix those also, so that you get slowed correctly for jumps.

xDragon

I fixed some of the issues with the movement resulting from the recent patch, and hopefully fixed the other major issues that were preventing the mod from being playable. There are still more improvements I want to make and I still need to fix the marine bhop issue.

NS-Soldier

in this mod do i get extra speed when i'm dry humping along the wall like ns1?