MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2014
Hello again!
Based on feedback from playtesting the last version(B 1.01) in 6vs6 settings, both private and in the NSL gathers, I gathered enough information to make some quality updates to mineral. Beta version 1.02 is live on steam.
Mineral Beta 1.02 change log:
- Ventilation from Mineral Processing now goes into Generators.
- Ventilation from Loading Bay now goes into Storage.
- Completely rebuilt Pump Station. Makes movement through the area more fluid and it is now harder for marines to break the cyst chain there.
- Removed slope in Rupture due to rebuild of Pump Station.
- Pump Station is now controlled by only one Power Node.
- Moved Power Node in Pump Control to make it a bit harder for Marines to build.
- Scaled all human-sized doors a little to make them taller/wider depending on the area.
- Added lights to the ladders in Mineral Processing making them easier to see.
Edit: please play it during the SCC session on Sunday, that would make me happy!
Edit2: I forgot to edit the texture with map info in the readyroom so ignore the version statement on that.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2014
Yeah people, new update to Mineral(B 1.03) is live on the workshop!
Mineral Beta 1.03 Change log:
- Finished detailing Ready Room.
- Detailed Resource Node location in Transport.
- Rebuilt/Detailed Rupture.
- Fixed Onos stuck spot behind Tech Point in Drill Site.
- Added ladders to Drill Site, for marines to find their way up a little easier.
- Removed OP Alien hiding spot on the southern pillar in Automation.
New minimap, been a while since I posted one here:
There is one issue that I didn't really look into yet, but it has to do with cinematics. The ones that are included with the game don't show up in the level. Only the ones I edited and put in a "Mineral" folder along with the map works. Anyone know why this is happening? I will google around to figure it out as well, but any answers here would be very much appreciated!
Yeah people, new update to Mineral(B 1.03) is live on the workshop!
Mineral Beta 1.03 Change log:
- Finished detailing Ready Room.
- Detailed Resource Node location in Transport.
- Rebuilt/Detailed Rupture.
- Fixed Onos stuck spot behind Tech Point in Drill Site.
- Added ladders to Drill Site, for marines to find their way up a little easier.
- Removed OP Alien hiding spot on the southern pillar in Automation.
New minimap, been a while since I posted one here:
There is one issue that I didn't really look into yet, but it has to do with cinematics. The ones that are included with the game don't show up in the level. Only the ones I edited and put in a "Mineral" folder along with the map works. Anyone know why this is happening? I will google around to figure it out as well, but any answers here would be very much appreciated!
If it's not already the case: Test your map from the workshop. Not from the console command line. make a private server on your computer to test it like 'in real conditions'. The best way to solve that kind of issue (especially things added by yourself).
The surface Power Node is far to easy to bile, harass.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
edited October 2014
this is generally an awesome map. fun to play on, easy to get around, not too confusing
anyway I personally think that the connection from Loading Bay to Automation is... strange... confusing well I guess you know what I mean, especially as marine.
also there is this thing with the minimap between transport and storage. I guess you can fix that by playing a face below that gate. It should show as a connection on the minimap and since it's below, it's not blocking commander view.
oh and I had an occlusion geometry bug when walking from pump control to loading bay. couldn't make a screenshot because a skulk was on my ass but loading bay disappeared for me for a second
Team balance wasn't that great, and on the first round, marines didn't seem to know what to do, where to go, what to pressure. They should've never let aliens set up a mini base in Transport. Especially with a tunnel so close to Loading Bay. Not much I could deduce off of this game. No marines pressure on the alien natural RTs, which is pretty easy to do usually. And about lane-blocking, it was terrible sometimes. 3 guys in Automation, two spawners sent to Lockers, therefore their left side is undefended whereas it's the side they should have put pressure on.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Thanks for your comments guys. And specially thanks to TAW for playing Mineral last Thursday. I'm continuing work on Mineral nearly every day, fixing issues and detailing more rooms. My goal is a fully detailed map by end of semester(Dec. 20). Though, not fully polished.
Here's a sneak peak of what I'm doing with Pump Control(wip):
I will be continuing work on Pump Control tomorrow morning at 09:00AM CET on my stream. I stream all the work I do on Mineral and have done so since I started up after the summer. Not sure when, but there will be a new version some time during this week.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Mineral Beta 1.04 is out on the workshop now.
Change log:
- Updated level information material.
- Made all entrances to Mineral Processing larger so they can not be armory blocked too easily.
- Moved Power Node between Mineral Processing and Generators due to making Mineral Processing entrances larger.
- Added ladder models to pillars in Automation to make them more obvious.
- Fixed Occlusion bug when going from Pump Control to Loading Bay. It turned out that an occlusion face had been accidentally moved into the playable area.
- Copied used original cinematics to my own Mineral folder to make them show up in-game when the map is launched via Steam Workshop.(not sure why they won’t display when using their original path, any input on this will be appreciated!)(increases mod file size by 22kb so far)
- Detailed Pump Control.
- Detailed corridor/stairway between Loading Bay and Pump Control.
- Tried to fix stuck issue in ventilation entrance from Pump Station towards Drill Site.
- Fixed missing piece of overview in Transport.
- Deleted some excessive props throughout the level.
- Removed collision that was unnecessary for some props.
- Removed some unnecessary props from Commander view.
Played this map on a random pub the other day, and I really must say I love it!
I was able to get this on an 8v8 server with some skilled players, and a trend tends to be showing.
If you are simply balancing for 6v6, then I'm not sure this is useful, but the right side seems to be extremely marine friendly, and I've yet to see a game in pubs where aliens win with Mineral start. It just seems to easy to harrass, and hold Generators.
Overall, it's been quote marine sided, but I attribute some of that to aliens learning the map.
Another comment made in a generic sense is that the LoS for much of the map is too open, and there needs to be more structure blocking, similar to what Courtyard does in Docking. \
I really, really enjoy this map, and hope to see it much more often in our rotation, but wanted to point out a few things we're noticed.
1 issue spotted :
-The vent (& shortcuts) from "Pump Station" to "Drill site" are way too powerful. A Lerk can literally looks like he used a PG to get there so fast (ignoring Fracture loop). It's like a straight line to the hive.
A JP can also use this in Ninja mode. It's doomsday for upgrades in the hive. GL-ing from a distance is easy. But it's even more easy to get there without being noticed from far away.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2014
Beta version 1.05 of Mineral is out on the Workshop!
Change log:
- Redesigned routing between Security, Automation and Loading Bay.
- Added ventilation between Automation and Security. Added for the purpose of easier Alien counter to ARCS in in Security.
- Slightly reworked some detailing in Transfer.
- Fixed a pathing issue in Transport(stairs).
- Changed a small detail in Generators.
- Generators in Generators are now commander invisible.
- Redesigned/Detailed Production.
Enjoy!
Also @UncleCrunch - I checked the timings with a Lerk flying from Mineral Processing to Drill site, both through the vent and through Rupture. The timings are pretty much exactly the same. Sure it's a nice ninja route, but jetpacks are late game and this is to be expected. Many other maps have the same kind of "issue". So I don't really see a problem with what you're commenting on.
It's not a lerk vs JP you should compare. It's Walking/running vs flying.
As the Lerk come up earlier than a JP, it's Lerk vs Marine walking you should compare.
I do think the gap between the 2 is bigger than in other maps.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
I didn't compare anything. I timed Lerk flight from Mineral Processing to Drill Site, either through the vent or through Rupture and the timing for both flights were nearly 100% identical. A Lerk flying compared to walking/running will be faster in any map, between any two points. It's not the map's fault that Lerks are faster than Marines.
1 issue spotted :
-The vent (& shortcuts) from "Pump Station" to "Drill site" are way too powerful. A Lerk can literally looks like he used a PG to get there so fast (ignoring Fracture loop). It's like a straight line to the hive.
A JP can also use this in Ninja mode. It's doomsday for upgrades in the hive. GL-ing from a distance is easy. But it's even more easy to get there without being noticed from far away.
Basically what you're saying here is that the vent and shortcuts from Pump Station to Drill Site is too powerful because a Lerk can get between the two in seemingly "phase-gate" speed. You also say "ignoring the Fracture loop", where I'm assuming you mean Rupture because there is no location in Mineral called "Fracture"(Fracture is another map). Also that vents are "powerful" for jetpacks is irrelevant because that will be the case in any map.
I then respond to you that I have timed Lerk flight from Mineral Processing to Drill Site(which obviously goes through Pump Station), using either the vents or going through Rupture). This timing of the Lerk flight gave me the conclusion that it doesn't matter where a Lerk flies to get from Pump Station to Drill site as the timing will be the exact same number of seconds(+/- some milliseconds). I also timed this when taking off from Pump Station's entrance to Rupture(both routes) and that gave me a timing of 3 seconds through both routes. So to put this in clear text:
Pump Station -> Rupture -> Drill Site = 3 seconds
Pump Station -> Vent -> Drill Site = 3 seconds
So no matter which route was taken it would apparently seem that the Lerk would be going in "phase gate" speed. In other words it doesn't impact the game what so ever which way the Lerk flies.
You also say that the vent is "a straight line into the hive". This is not the case, even though it may look like it on the minimap. If you ever used the vent that is there you would know that it goes upwards at a point(IE, Not straight).
It's not a lerk vs JP you should compare. It's Walking/running vs flying.
As the Lerk come up earlier than a JP, it's Lerk vs Marine walking you should compare.
I do think the gap between the 2 is bigger than in other maps.
As stated above, I didn't compare anything other than which route was faster when going from Pump Station to Drill Site as a Lerk(because that was the "issue that you spotted"). The conclusion is also stated above.
It also doesn't make any sense to compare Lerk speed vs Marine walk/run from Pump Station to Drill Site because the Lerk will always be faster no matter what you do. This is the same for any map, between any two locations. You also say that "the gap between the two(I'm assuming Lerks and Marines) is bigger than in other maps". Which is just not possible. Marines will always use more time than a Lerk, that's how the game works. I can't change that with my map unless I add a mod that increses Marine run speed or decreases Lerk flight speed.
Even if I were to change the vent so that it's longer somehow that wouldn't solve anything. It wouldn't make sense to make the vent so much longer that the time difference between going through it or Rupture. If anything that would make the vent obsolete and completely ruin its function.
Another thing to note is that the entire northern area of the map is something I'd like to call "native Alien terrirtory"(because both possible Alien spawns are in the north). This means that this area should be a little more powerful for Aliens than Marines. You can see the same thing in Veil. Aliens can pretty much get freely from Sub to Pipeline using vents via Cargo etc. So why this would be such a much bigger problem in Mineral than in any other map is something I fail to understand.
I've had plenty of playtests with competitive players(which the map is aimed for) and not a single one of them has ever voiced an opinion about the vent from Pump Station to Drill Site. In fact one of the things that people was complaining about earliest with Mineral was the LACK of a vent from Pump Station to Drill Site. Since it was added I haven't heard a word about it for almost 6 months.
At this point I'd like to consider this matter closed as I've clearly voiced my opinion about it and provied you with some numbers and very reasonable arguments why the vent isn't a problem. Let's get this thread back on track.
Plus, the map is now enough Marines friendly for the vent to be almost essential to aliens. The Map used to be big, it isn't now, the marines can easily spawn and quickly get into aliens territory (i.e Pump Control/Stations). I find it hard enough for aliens to not really have safe zones, so removing a vent is not a good idea.
@MasterG : I have one complaint about a vent though. I've been thinking about it for some time, wondering what could be done, but not finding a solution.
Your vent from Mineral to Gen is too long. When you have marines in The Bitch that Kills You, they'll hear you.
So here are a few ideas. I'll explain later, I gotta eat. I'll edit my post
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
@MauvaisVitrier I completely agree with the vent there being too long. Though Marines in the **** that kills you will hear you in either of those examples so I won't base an eventual new vent around that.
Having entrances to three locations from that vent is something I think will be too powerful. But making the vent shorter to travel is something that is needed. Not sure how to do it(IE where to place the vent entrance in Mineral), but I'm sure I'll figure something out.
What I meant is that with a much shorter vent (working on where the entrance and exit are) you would actually be able to sneak without getting bored or loosing too much time. The interesting thing about this vent is that you can get out of base safe and unoticed if you need to. If the vent is too long and you have to run in order to be fast and reactive, you're being loud and counter productive.
Also, the vent from Pump Control to Gen is essential, it counters the lack of connectivity between east and west on the north part of the map. I think it's the most used vent, mostly because the map is relatively small and that you need to be able to cover both sides quickly (since marines can easily pressure both sides at the same time.
I also use the Loading Bay/Storage vent a lot, provides great cover, then you have to go through Storage and that corridor to get to DRill Site. It's useful but not too powerfull. You have a nice balance here.
The vent from Security to Automation is nice too, I haven't used it yet, but I've seen people use it.
Maybe one more suggestion. I don't know how that would work.
But maybe adding a short vent from Lounge to Prod could be cool. Res bitting is fine from what I've seen so far. But maybe you need some secondary paths for aliens to avoid marines. Nothing too powerful, just a short vent in which marines can go (without having to boost each other) on the lounge side, just to check if something is in it. Think of Supply Lines in Jambi. That kind of vent, not too hard to counter for marines
I'm talking about not only the vent but the whole route combined to the strength of the room entry point.
Comparing the vent and the whole route are 2 different things as the vent is close to the TP location (drill site). But it's not only the time to get there it's the strength of the entry point in the TP location. This location is a refuge to any flying thing.
Comp play testers obviously didn't use that route in their tests (which is clearly not impossible as the map is rather new and not known like the back of the hand). OR they just didn't have to use it depending on how goes the game.
Proper testing isn't only playing games. It also playing "rooms" which I've never seen in NS2. Basically you test the room with different assault strategies and different upgrades/lifeforms.
But lets get back to it :
Once you know the vent, any ok player will use and abuse it in many ways. Count me in! Lerk, skulk then gorge (bile), JP... name it. It's just like a sure shot that the opponent won't be able to see coming. Not even talking about harassment (headache for commanders).
Using this route; you don't have turn 90° left or right. Controlling the eight is part of Lerk attributes and as long as walls exist part of the skulk attributes. It doesn't really matters.
This "Drill site" room is a big room (height).
-On Alien side : a Lerk can kill or annoy from a distance. Without being noticed sometimes.
-On Marine side : A JP/GL coming out that vent exit would; to the very least; kill something (100% sure) belonging to the aliens. Also using ricochet for grenade launchers. Or the "Touch and Go" technique (like planes).
-The room has many "perchs" which will help save fuel/adrenaline... Or using catwalk as a shield. It gives time to escape.
We know now that big rooms can be an issue in NS2. Docking, refinery, tram, mineshaft... need i say more ?
But lets get back to the numbers :
We may not have the same stopwatch. Starting from here (practically never turn) and going to Drill site:
Marine : JP 9 sec
No celerity : Skulk : 8~9 secs, Lerk 6 sec,
Celerity : Skulk 7.5 sec, Lerk 4.9 sec
Marine running and using Rupture then stops at door step of the hive: 13 sec minimum.
This means :
On the tactical layer :
If you want to "defuse" the "annoying Lerk in the vent" you need at least 2 guys and 2 really godlike aim marines to cover the weakest segments of this route. I know one lerk or two that just gonna be collecting marine meat with this strong position.
Entry points :
Having the higher ground is always better. Walking marine enters trough the doors on the ground. Anything that is using the vent to get to Drill site is in a far better position than any other opponent in the room.
My opinion is that "combo" is far too strong (numbers can't lie). I don't think you should redo the entire area; just change it to avoid having this combo. It is reachable easily.
All of this for a stupid tiny vent ?
I think the Mineral/Gen vent is a far more important issue atm.
About the DRill Site vent, I've almost never used it because it's kind of useless in most cases. The line of sight between pump stations and rupture is short enough for the lerk or fade to be able to escape anyway.
When you enter from drill site out in Pump as a lifeform you are quite vulnerable having no LoS out of the vent. You have to make a detour to get in it. Way easier to just go through rupture
Time travel :
Lerk :
- from Mineral to the entrance of Drill Site using vents : 8.6 sc (without celerity)
- with celerity : 7.5 sc
Skulk : still using vents (at least the problematic one)
- 13 sc without celerity
- 11 sc with celerity
The other way arround Drill to Mineral takes a little longer as a skulk because you have to wall run to get up in the vent, then up in pump too.
Time Travel without vents :
Lerk :
- 9.3 sc without celerity
- 8.3 sc with celerity
Skulk
- 12 sc without celerity
- 10.5 sc with celerity
If your concern is only about JP/GLs, MasterG just move the damn vent exit (drill site) way lower, under the elevated platform, behind the two pipes, like you did in Mineral.
Else than that, I don't think this is causing any issue. But let's test this during the SCC playtest, we'll see.
If you have marines in Rupture, you as a lerk use the vent but get out in drill site in the open. If they got the info or used a scan, that lerk is dead. If you decide to put the vent exit much more below, this will actually provide MORE cover to the escaping lifeform.
One last argument. you can do what ever you want in Cargo (Veil) when you have a jetpack and a GL, you can get out of or hide in two vents, get on structures up close to the ceiling and GL everything easily saving fuel or adrenaline.
Every map has small issues like that because you can't achieve perfect balance, (does perfect balance even exist ?) you has pros and cons to every single shit, prop design in a map.
For example, that Drill site vent : stays as it is, easy for JP to get out of there and get on the ceiling, but the issue is not the vent, they would have been able to do so, without the vent + it provides no cover whatsoever to lifeforms that get out of it, which is kind of a big deal. Move the vent further down, and it provides more cover to escaping lifeforms, but JPsGLs will have to fly up, so they won't use it, and snowball effect, this will again provide even more cover for lifeform who use that vent.
Look at the vent that goes from Sub Sector to Y Junction on Veil. It's the same vent. It allows you to skip one room and let's you out in the open. For what it's worth I find the Veil vent even more powerfull since it let's you skip System Waypointing which is a freaking important room for marines. The important room to control for marines on Mineral isn't Rupture, it's Pump Stations, and the Drill Site vent leads right into that Rump Stations room, so...
My point is, everything is there for a reason. and if you change something you have to think of the consequences.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2014
Nice screenshots @MauvaisVitrier. I did a test with illustrator/photoshop to give one of the images a washed out kind of look for loading screens. Seems to be fitting nicely with the load screens for official maps. It would be nice with 1080p images though. And in some of the shots it looks like not all graphic settings are on the highest?
@UncleCrunch if you would have worded your initial post like that you would have made more sense. The first post you wrote pretty much didn't say much other than the vent being powerful because Lerks are fast. This is why it was hard to even take it seriously.
About your times, yes sure they are different, but you are comparing different species. As for my 3 second time, that was from next to the doorway going into Rupture from Pump Station going through either the vent or Rupture(like I said) and going to the same spot on top of the platform in Drill Site. And only as a lerk. Again I can't change how movement speed works in this game. But I will look into the height issue you are talking about, because it makes sense.
MV's additions here also make sense, so there are a lot of things to consider even for such a small change, this is why I'm not taking this with a light heart and also getting a little fired up about it. I'll work on both the Drill Site vent and the Mineral/Gen vent for next version as well as other things that I feel like needs to change at the moment. Specifically I know I need to something with the route from Surface to Lockers for example.
Giving Marines Lockers and Security near free RTs including the natural expansion of Automation... then Aliens need to fight hard for their naturals. This alone is worth rage, since Aliens tend to be down 1-2 res the entire game because of how favorable the res is to Marines.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Out of all the games I've played/watched on Mineral since I redesigned most of the soth of the map, the only times I've seen alien resflow be worse than marines have been in games greater than 6vs6 wih seemingly inexperienced players. In competitive playtesting with both even and uneven skill the resource flow of the teams have been pretty much even with 4 rts active after 5 minutes.
Aliens have as much access to resources in the north as marines have in the south. They are a bit more spread out in the north, but that's because aliens are faster so it made sense to me. It's up to the players to be able to protect their team res, and knowledge of the map plays a huge part. I assume most players don't know the map well enough to be able to protect their res sufficiently, on both tesms.
I'll need to see more games on the map to determine if anything needs to be done about it. Maybe some short vents in the south that are accessible to both teams could work, but like I said that needs to be determined through more testing.
Here is the video of the SCC playtest session from the 26.10.14, sorry for the crappy quality. OBS refuses to record NS2, and I didnt have time to figure out why not.
Comments
Based on feedback from playtesting the last version(B 1.01) in 6vs6 settings, both private and in the NSL gathers, I gathered enough information to make some quality updates to mineral. Beta version 1.02 is live on steam.
Mineral Beta 1.02 change log:
- Ventilation from Mineral Processing now goes into Generators.
- Ventilation from Loading Bay now goes into Storage.
- Completely rebuilt Pump Station. Makes movement through the area more fluid and it is now harder for marines to break the cyst chain there.
- Removed slope in Rupture due to rebuild of Pump Station.
- Pump Station is now controlled by only one Power Node.
- Moved Power Node in Pump Control to make it a bit harder for Marines to build.
- Scaled all human-sized doors a little to make them taller/wider depending on the area.
- Added lights to the ladders in Mineral Processing making them easier to see.
Edit: please play it during the SCC session on Sunday, that would make me happy!
Edit2: I forgot to edit the texture with map info in the readyroom so ignore the version statement on that.
Mineral Beta 1.03 Change log:
- Finished detailing Ready Room.
- Detailed Resource Node location in Transport.
- Rebuilt/Detailed Rupture.
- Fixed Onos stuck spot behind Tech Point in Drill Site.
- Added ladders to Drill Site, for marines to find their way up a little easier.
- Removed OP Alien hiding spot on the southern pillar in Automation.
New minimap, been a while since I posted one here:
There is one issue that I didn't really look into yet, but it has to do with cinematics. The ones that are included with the game don't show up in the level. Only the ones I edited and put in a "Mineral" folder along with the map works. Anyone know why this is happening? I will google around to figure it out as well, but any answers here would be very much appreciated!
If it's not already the case: Test your map from the workshop. Not from the console command line. make a private server on your computer to test it like 'in real conditions'. The best way to solve that kind of issue (especially things added by yourself).
The surface Power Node is far to easy to bile, harass.
Doesn't seem much different from marine start on veil, IMO.
anyway I personally think that the connection from Loading Bay to Automation is... strange... confusing well I guess you know what I mean, especially as marine.
also there is this thing with the minimap between transport and storage. I guess you can fix that by playing a face below that gate. It should show as a connection on the minimap and since it's below, it's not blocking commander view.
oh and I had an occlusion geometry bug when walking from pump control to loading bay. couldn't make a screenshot because a skulk was on my ass but loading bay disappeared for me for a second
http://www.twitch.tv/skyfishart/b/574205124
http://www.hitbox.tv/video/275403
Team balance wasn't that great, and on the first round, marines didn't seem to know what to do, where to go, what to pressure. They should've never let aliens set up a mini base in Transport. Especially with a tunnel so close to Loading Bay. Not much I could deduce off of this game. No marines pressure on the alien natural RTs, which is pretty easy to do usually. And about lane-blocking, it was terrible sometimes. 3 guys in Automation, two spawners sent to Lockers, therefore their left side is undefended whereas it's the side they should have put pressure on.
TAW gotta love them two or three onos.
Hey.. it mounted both custom maps, it shouldn't do that.. *goes to look*
Here's a sneak peak of what I'm doing with Pump Control(wip):
I will be continuing work on Pump Control tomorrow morning at 09:00AM CET on my stream. I stream all the work I do on Mineral and have done so since I started up after the summer. Not sure when, but there will be a new version some time during this week.
Change log:
- Updated level information material.
- Made all entrances to Mineral Processing larger so they can not be armory blocked too easily.
- Moved Power Node between Mineral Processing and Generators due to making Mineral Processing entrances larger.
- Added ladder models to pillars in Automation to make them more obvious.
- Fixed Occlusion bug when going from Pump Control to Loading Bay. It turned out that an occlusion face had been accidentally moved into the playable area.
- Copied used original cinematics to my own Mineral folder to make them show up in-game when the map is launched via Steam Workshop.(not sure why they won’t display when using their original path, any input on this will be appreciated!)(increases mod file size by 22kb so far)
- Detailed Pump Control.
- Detailed corridor/stairway between Loading Bay and Pump Control.
- Tried to fix stuck issue in ventilation entrance from Pump Station towards Drill Site.
- Fixed missing piece of overview in Transport.
- Deleted some excessive props throughout the level.
- Removed collision that was unnecessary for some props.
- Removed some unnecessary props from Commander view.
I was able to get this on an 8v8 server with some skilled players, and a trend tends to be showing.
If you are simply balancing for 6v6, then I'm not sure this is useful, but the right side seems to be extremely marine friendly, and I've yet to see a game in pubs where aliens win with Mineral start. It just seems to easy to harrass, and hold Generators.
Overall, it's been quote marine sided, but I attribute some of that to aliens learning the map.
Another comment made in a generic sense is that the LoS for much of the map is too open, and there needs to be more structure blocking, similar to what Courtyard does in Docking. \
I really, really enjoy this map, and hope to see it much more often in our rotation, but wanted to point out a few things we're noticed.
Thanks!
-The vent (& shortcuts) from "Pump Station" to "Drill site" are way too powerful. A Lerk can literally looks like he used a PG to get there so fast (ignoring Fracture loop). It's like a straight line to the hive.
A JP can also use this in Ninja mode. It's doomsday for upgrades in the hive. GL-ing from a distance is easy. But it's even more easy to get there without being noticed from far away.
Change log:
- Redesigned routing between Security, Automation and Loading Bay.
- Added ventilation between Automation and Security. Added for the purpose of easier Alien counter to ARCS in in Security.
- Slightly reworked some detailing in Transfer.
- Fixed a pathing issue in Transport(stairs).
- Changed a small detail in Generators.
- Generators in Generators are now commander invisible.
- Redesigned/Detailed Production.
Enjoy!
Also @UncleCrunch - I checked the timings with a Lerk flying from Mineral Processing to Drill site, both through the vent and through Rupture. The timings are pretty much exactly the same. Sure it's a nice ninja route, but jetpacks are late game and this is to be expected. Many other maps have the same kind of "issue". So I don't really see a problem with what you're commenting on.
As the Lerk come up earlier than a JP, it's Lerk vs Marine walking you should compare.
I do think the gap between the 2 is bigger than in other maps.
Basically what you're saying here is that the vent and shortcuts from Pump Station to Drill Site is too powerful because a Lerk can get between the two in seemingly "phase-gate" speed. You also say "ignoring the Fracture loop", where I'm assuming you mean Rupture because there is no location in Mineral called "Fracture"(Fracture is another map). Also that vents are "powerful" for jetpacks is irrelevant because that will be the case in any map.
I then respond to you that I have timed Lerk flight from Mineral Processing to Drill Site(which obviously goes through Pump Station), using either the vents or going through Rupture). This timing of the Lerk flight gave me the conclusion that it doesn't matter where a Lerk flies to get from Pump Station to Drill site as the timing will be the exact same number of seconds(+/- some milliseconds). I also timed this when taking off from Pump Station's entrance to Rupture(both routes) and that gave me a timing of 3 seconds through both routes. So to put this in clear text:
Pump Station -> Rupture -> Drill Site = 3 seconds
Pump Station -> Vent -> Drill Site = 3 seconds
So no matter which route was taken it would apparently seem that the Lerk would be going in "phase gate" speed. In other words it doesn't impact the game what so ever which way the Lerk flies.
You also say that the vent is "a straight line into the hive". This is not the case, even though it may look like it on the minimap. If you ever used the vent that is there you would know that it goes upwards at a point(IE, Not straight).
As stated above, I didn't compare anything other than which route was faster when going from Pump Station to Drill Site as a Lerk(because that was the "issue that you spotted"). The conclusion is also stated above.
It also doesn't make any sense to compare Lerk speed vs Marine walk/run from Pump Station to Drill Site because the Lerk will always be faster no matter what you do. This is the same for any map, between any two locations. You also say that "the gap between the two(I'm assuming Lerks and Marines) is bigger than in other maps". Which is just not possible. Marines will always use more time than a Lerk, that's how the game works. I can't change that with my map unless I add a mod that increses Marine run speed or decreases Lerk flight speed.
Even if I were to change the vent so that it's longer somehow that wouldn't solve anything. It wouldn't make sense to make the vent so much longer that the time difference between going through it or Rupture. If anything that would make the vent obsolete and completely ruin its function.
Another thing to note is that the entire northern area of the map is something I'd like to call "native Alien terrirtory"(because both possible Alien spawns are in the north). This means that this area should be a little more powerful for Aliens than Marines. You can see the same thing in Veil. Aliens can pretty much get freely from Sub to Pipeline using vents via Cargo etc. So why this would be such a much bigger problem in Mineral than in any other map is something I fail to understand.
I've had plenty of playtests with competitive players(which the map is aimed for) and not a single one of them has ever voiced an opinion about the vent from Pump Station to Drill Site. In fact one of the things that people was complaining about earliest with Mineral was the LACK of a vent from Pump Station to Drill Site. Since it was added I haven't heard a word about it for almost 6 months.
At this point I'd like to consider this matter closed as I've clearly voiced my opinion about it and provied you with some numbers and very reasonable arguments why the vent isn't a problem. Let's get this thread back on track.
@MasterG : I have one complaint about a vent though. I've been thinking about it for some time, wondering what could be done, but not finding a solution.
Your vent from Mineral to Gen is too long. When you have marines in The Bitch that Kills You, they'll hear you.
So here are a few ideas. I'll explain later, I gotta eat. I'll edit my post
Having entrances to three locations from that vent is something I think will be too powerful. But making the vent shorter to travel is something that is needed. Not sure how to do it(IE where to place the vent entrance in Mineral), but I'm sure I'll figure something out.
Also, the vent from Pump Control to Gen is essential, it counters the lack of connectivity between east and west on the north part of the map. I think it's the most used vent, mostly because the map is relatively small and that you need to be able to cover both sides quickly (since marines can easily pressure both sides at the same time.
I also use the Loading Bay/Storage vent a lot, provides great cover, then you have to go through Storage and that corridor to get to DRill Site. It's useful but not too powerfull. You have a nice balance here.
The vent from Security to Automation is nice too, I haven't used it yet, but I've seen people use it.
Maybe one more suggestion. I don't know how that would work.
But maybe adding a short vent from Lounge to Prod could be cool. Res bitting is fine from what I've seen so far. But maybe you need some secondary paths for aliens to avoid marines. Nothing too powerful, just a short vent in which marines can go (without having to boost each other) on the lounge side, just to check if something is in it. Think of Supply Lines in Jambi. That kind of vent, not too hard to counter for marines
I'm talking about not only the vent but the whole route combined to the strength of the room entry point.
Comparing the vent and the whole route are 2 different things as the vent is close to the TP location (drill site). But it's not only the time to get there it's the strength of the entry point in the TP location. This location is a refuge to any flying thing.
Comp play testers obviously didn't use that route in their tests (which is clearly not impossible as the map is rather new and not known like the back of the hand). OR they just didn't have to use it depending on how goes the game.
Proper testing isn't only playing games. It also playing "rooms" which I've never seen in NS2. Basically you test the room with different assault strategies and different upgrades/lifeforms.
But lets get back to it :
Once you know the vent, any ok player will use and abuse it in many ways. Count me in! Lerk, skulk then gorge (bile), JP... name it. It's just like a sure shot that the opponent won't be able to see coming. Not even talking about harassment (headache for commanders).
Using this route; you don't have turn 90° left or right. Controlling the eight is part of Lerk attributes and as long as walls exist part of the skulk attributes. It doesn't really matters.
This "Drill site" room is a big room (height).
-On Alien side : a Lerk can kill or annoy from a distance. Without being noticed sometimes.
-On Marine side : A JP/GL coming out that vent exit would; to the very least; kill something (100% sure) belonging to the aliens. Also using ricochet for grenade launchers. Or the "Touch and Go" technique (like planes).
-The room has many "perchs" which will help save fuel/adrenaline... Or using catwalk as a shield. It gives time to escape.
We know now that big rooms can be an issue in NS2. Docking, refinery, tram, mineshaft... need i say more ?
But lets get back to the numbers :
We may not have the same stopwatch. Starting from here (practically never turn) and going to Drill site:
Marine : JP 9 sec
No celerity : Skulk : 8~9 secs, Lerk 6 sec,
Celerity : Skulk 7.5 sec, Lerk 4.9 sec
Marine running and using Rupture then stops at door step of the hive: 13 sec minimum.
This means :
On the tactical layer :
If you want to "defuse" the "annoying Lerk in the vent" you need at least 2 guys and 2 really godlike aim marines to cover the weakest segments of this route. I know one lerk or two that just gonna be collecting marine meat with this strong position.
Entry points :
Having the higher ground is always better. Walking marine enters trough the doors on the ground. Anything that is using the vent to get to Drill site is in a far better position than any other opponent in the room.
My opinion is that "combo" is far too strong (numbers can't lie). I don't think you should redo the entire area; just change it to avoid having this combo. It is reachable easily.
But; you're the artist you do whatever you want.
I think the Mineral/Gen vent is a far more important issue atm.
About the DRill Site vent, I've almost never used it because it's kind of useless in most cases. The line of sight between pump stations and rupture is short enough for the lerk or fade to be able to escape anyway.
When you enter from drill site out in Pump as a lifeform you are quite vulnerable having no LoS out of the vent. You have to make a detour to get in it. Way easier to just go through rupture
Time travel :
Lerk :
- from Mineral to the entrance of Drill Site using vents : 8.6 sc (without celerity)
- with celerity : 7.5 sc
Skulk : still using vents (at least the problematic one)
- 13 sc without celerity
- 11 sc with celerity
The other way arround Drill to Mineral takes a little longer as a skulk because you have to wall run to get up in the vent, then up in pump too.
Time Travel without vents :
Lerk :
- 9.3 sc without celerity
- 8.3 sc with celerity
Skulk
- 12 sc without celerity
- 10.5 sc with celerity
If your concern is only about JP/GLs, MasterG just move the damn vent exit (drill site) way lower, under the elevated platform, behind the two pipes, like you did in Mineral.
Else than that, I don't think this is causing any issue. But let's test this during the SCC playtest, we'll see.
If you have marines in Rupture, you as a lerk use the vent but get out in drill site in the open. If they got the info or used a scan, that lerk is dead. If you decide to put the vent exit much more below, this will actually provide MORE cover to the escaping lifeform.
One last argument. you can do what ever you want in Cargo (Veil) when you have a jetpack and a GL, you can get out of or hide in two vents, get on structures up close to the ceiling and GL everything easily saving fuel or adrenaline.
Every map has small issues like that because you can't achieve perfect balance, (does perfect balance even exist ?) you has pros and cons to every single shit, prop design in a map.
For example, that Drill site vent : stays as it is, easy for JP to get out of there and get on the ceiling, but the issue is not the vent, they would have been able to do so, without the vent + it provides no cover whatsoever to lifeforms that get out of it, which is kind of a big deal. Move the vent further down, and it provides more cover to escaping lifeforms, but JPsGLs will have to fly up, so they won't use it, and snowball effect, this will again provide even more cover for lifeform who use that vent.
Look at the vent that goes from Sub Sector to Y Junction on Veil. It's the same vent. It allows you to skip one room and let's you out in the open. For what it's worth I find the Veil vent even more powerfull since it let's you skip System Waypointing which is a freaking important room for marines. The important room to control for marines on Mineral isn't Rupture, it's Pump Stations, and the Drill Site vent leads right into that Rump Stations room, so...
My point is, everything is there for a reason. and if you change something you have to think of the consequences.
@UncleCrunch if you would have worded your initial post like that you would have made more sense. The first post you wrote pretty much didn't say much other than the vent being powerful because Lerks are fast. This is why it was hard to even take it seriously.
About your times, yes sure they are different, but you are comparing different species. As for my 3 second time, that was from next to the doorway going into Rupture from Pump Station going through either the vent or Rupture(like I said) and going to the same spot on top of the platform in Drill Site. And only as a lerk. Again I can't change how movement speed works in this game. But I will look into the height issue you are talking about, because it makes sense.
MV's additions here also make sense, so there are a lot of things to consider even for such a small change, this is why I'm not taking this with a light heart and also getting a little fired up about it. I'll work on both the Drill Site vent and the Mineral/Gen vent for next version as well as other things that I feel like needs to change at the moment. Specifically I know I need to something with the route from Surface to Lockers for example.
Aliens have as much access to resources in the north as marines have in the south. They are a bit more spread out in the north, but that's because aliens are faster so it made sense to me. It's up to the players to be able to protect their team res, and knowledge of the map plays a huge part. I assume most players don't know the map well enough to be able to protect their res sufficiently, on both tesms.
I'll need to see more games on the map to determine if anything needs to be done about it. Maybe some short vents in the south that are accessible to both teams could work, but like I said that needs to be determined through more testing.