NS2 Competitive Mod - Balance Mod Part II
Zefram
Join Date: 2004-05-11 Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer
Join Date: 2004-05-11 Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer
Originally posted on the front page of the NSL.
The list of proposed changes for the second iteration is massive and much too long for a single news post. We're hoping to release a live update with these changes in a week or so. Here's a link to the proposed changes and the abridged intro from the balance team.
Some of the changes currently in the live balance mod can be considered emergency triage. Some (like the alien tech tree cost reductions, the fade blink energy reduction) were bandaids with the goal of immediately improving some of the most glaring balance issues.
The patch notes here can be intimidating, but it’s important to consider that the overall goal of this patch is to further streamline and hopefully eliminate many of those previous glaring issues in a much more in-depth manner, opening up more choices in gameplay, and addressing some previously frustrating gameplay mechanics.
Feedback and suggestions on these patchnotes are encouraged, but please keep in mind that if you do have a suggestion or criticism, you need to provide well thought out reasonings for it. Just saying “this is bad” or “add/change this” without the reasoning behind it will not get your ideas the consideration or respect they deserve.
Proposed changes.
Your participation is crucial.
Please read carefully, consider, and comment.
The list of proposed changes for the second iteration is massive and much too long for a single news post. We're hoping to release a live update with these changes in a week or so. Here's a link to the proposed changes and the abridged intro from the balance team.
Some of the changes currently in the live balance mod can be considered emergency triage. Some (like the alien tech tree cost reductions, the fade blink energy reduction) were bandaids with the goal of immediately improving some of the most glaring balance issues.
The patch notes here can be intimidating, but it’s important to consider that the overall goal of this patch is to further streamline and hopefully eliminate many of those previous glaring issues in a much more in-depth manner, opening up more choices in gameplay, and addressing some previously frustrating gameplay mechanics.
Feedback and suggestions on these patchnotes are encouraged, but please keep in mind that if you do have a suggestion or criticism, you need to provide well thought out reasonings for it. Just saying “this is bad” or “add/change this” without the reasoning behind it will not get your ideas the consideration or respect they deserve.
Proposed changes.
Your participation is crucial.
Please read carefully, consider, and comment.
Comments
Yay for separating out specific upgrades!
Going down the list of things...
2. Egg drops should not be completely removed. Gorge eggs should still be allowed, and are quite strategic I'd say. It's one thing to lose your Fade and be given an egg and say, "Here, sorry you got killed. 2nd chance?" right away. A Gorge egg would allow you drop tunnels (Cheaper now, 2PRes) without hurting their current PRes as much. Leaving for more strategy.
3. This looks like a great change, but from the current cost it seems the Aliens will have to dedicate more res for research again? 15 Leap/25 Xeno, 40 res; I don't remember Skulk upgrades costing this much before the tech res change. Not to mention, we're getting closer and closer to creating a different game from public games which was mentioned as an issue because it would alienate future players from joining since they have to relearn everything again.
4. Bonewall is an incredible Alien commander mechanic that (If used offensively) can change the tide of battle. Adding a long wind-up animation would ruin that, and make it more difficult for life-forms to escape. Plus, cysts were nerfed in their health. If players are worried about getting bone-walled then destroy the damn cyst. No more bone-wall.
5. I never knew about this. I guess this was added because they thought faster Skulks would have a harder time aiming?
7. I'm unsure about the change, but it looks good. As it stands I almost never get to deal with a gorge that has bile-bomb mid/late game lately. If I do, we're usually about to lose anyways.
8c. Reducing web cost to 0 would make gorging up areas near impossible to get into unless one wants to (riskly) purchase a 25 res flamethrower (which would probably be focused by life-forms and quickly loss). Once cleared, the Gorge would just put the webs back up with no consequence as if nothing happened. However, leaving it at 1 res cost would also mean no one would want to touch it. Honestly, I'm not sure there is a way to make webs used more unless you allow some way other than a 25 res flamethrower to clear them. Maybe cluster grenades can destroy them, or nerve gas?
9. Don't reduce the time. It's already annoying to be an umbra bot as it is. Radius is understandable though.
10. No, no no no no no no"
11. I'm not sure how metabolize work(s/ed)? I don't think I'd be okay with any higher-lifeform being able to regen in a pinched scenario without the use of crags/drifters/regen upgrade. Reduce the cost of Shifts from 13 back to 10 and reduce their total health cost. This would allow more Shifts to be used but also be easier to take out since they'd be vital structures in allowing Fades to regen energy.
12a. Yes.
12b. Yes.
12c. Yes.
12d. No. If at the very least, 95 damage. I'm not sure why this is an issue though. Are people not buying welders? Nerfing gorge bile-bombs will remedy this issue even more.
15. Fucking, yes.
16. What was wrong with the double-jump? People too slow to press space-bar twice?
17. Define combat. A grenade shouldn't be usable in close-range combat, it should be punishing.
19. This looks good overall, but would still be too big an investment against 0res webs.
20. Yes.
21a-d. Wouldn't this make Bile-bomb incredibly OP on structures then?
22. I don't mind this, but guarding a weapon on the ground from a respawning marine should already guarantee they won't get it back.
1b ) I do not believe aliens need even easier tunnels. They are already easy enough to use and should be a high risk/win in my opinion instead of a low risk/highwin scenario.
3) while I like the idea it is going far away from whats currently live, making sort of a 2nd game.
4) never as a receiving marine felt this to be a problem. But I guess thats personal opinion. But I dont mind the kham having some influence minus drifters. I wonder if marines wont see this to easily.
10) another rather big change but I wonder how it will play out.
11) removing and adding abilities? Really? This is far from the advertised balance changes earlier in the season. Yes I can see the logic and yes perhaps it may be needed but allow small changes and where do we end?
Your reasoning is also flawed. If its redundant its not a 'cheap ability making fades to hard to kill'. Also its one of the fades best ways to catch jetpack when combined with blink.
But I do mainly think we are moving to much from the standard game itself.
rest of the list I have less issues with but it makes me very weary of what the future shall bring.
The rest is just cost balance changes and tweaking things to be more skill based which is good.
Honestly, I see no reason that changes like this shouldn't be put into the game. Maybe not these changes exactly as they are still WiP, but the last balance change worked well. Gibs Gorge Hut was running the comp changes, and it worked fine for all of the pubness. The only thing you can say is some of the larger servers would not work well with these changes, but half of them already run a custom balance work of their own... and who the hell cares about servers with more than 20 people on them anyways.
These are a lot of sweeping changes, and while I appreciate the reasoning being provided behind the changes, I would much more appreciate smaller incremental changes.
As for opinion:
2. see 4.
4. Can we see khammander p-res returned? Also, removing commander "reactionary" or "skill-based" abilities really makes me kind of sad. Instead of bone walls being precise, well timed executions that can save life forms from a cat-pack/jetpack trap or split an entrenched marine push located on alien infestation, they're now more randomized and removed from my control. I can place one, but in the 2 seconds following it actually taking place, hope that it doesn't screw my team over makes me think it will be very unuseful and maybe even dangerous. Not to mention I don't see it being a useful tool in countering catpacks/jetpacks chasing life forms down. I have never heard anyone complain that bone wall is ghey or lame or buggy, and it was seen as one of the dangers of engaging on infestation. The mechanics in place to prevent it becoming a huge problem are already in place: remove cysts, decent cooldown. What's left for me as khamm that's time-sensitive and really an engagement changer? drifter enzyme? It's pretty much standard in the mid-late game to have drifter support on all engagements.
But the marine commander: He/she has the capability to completely make or break a fight. You engage a marine with no med/ammo/cat/nano support, generally it's pretty easy, or MUCH easier. The difference between a good commander and a bad one is drastic and can be seen. But if the commander is good, times medpacks really well, even cat packs/nanoshield appropriately, he becomes a game changer and engagement changer alone. He alone makes a HUGE impact. The alien khamm is more of a joke in comparison. It is like making med packs have an animation as the drop from the sky on a parachute. It probably won't be in the right place and the right time by the time it lands.
Hey team, sorry that I can't really make a substantial impact on this game. All of my abilities were animating in and likely dated and no longer useful for the engagement. I guess my argument is that alien khammander is not fitting well with the game. It's a twitch based shooter right? Why remove my twitch based RTS abilities that need apply in real time to make or break an engagement? If I'm playing well, reacting in a timely manner, and knowledgeable about my placement and timing, shouldn't I make a reasonable impact like the marine comm?
How difficult would it be to instead make the bone wall not capture player but bump them to the side they're closest to?
12.d) I love this. Now as commander I can maybe keep my marine alive without armor for a little bit longer, especailly if that player does the right movement to avoid a swing or two from the onos.
None of this is set in stone of course. This is why the patch needs in-game testing, if bonewall turns out to be too weak, we will try out other options.
I think for now the wind-up animation is going to be 1 second, though. (not 2)
I will enjoy testing a lot of these changes out, and while I can definitely see your concern of the bone wall being a little "too" effective and a little bit too much of a game changer, I just wanted to bring up my concerns of the state of alien khamm being really lame and this change potentially making it lamer.
I am open to the biomass affecting the HP sort of change. If the wind-up is significantly short enough to remain useful, great. I was just informed that it might be the same as the bile blob (whatever it's called), in which I feel would make it a little silly.
Sure, it's a small list of things but where do we draw the line? 3 extra mechanics, 6, 12, 50? The more mechanics added means a bigger barrier between pubs/comp. Meaning people will become more timid in trying competitive. People shouldn't have to relearn the game because of new mechanics. They should have to relearn the game because they're facing better players and need a change of playstyle.
I'm saying if the changes all end up working, they should be default. I know the currently suggested changes are not the best, but the idea is sound.
The NS1 system was superior where getting a hive immediately unlocked the abilities for that hive, which meant that life forms would know what they were getting, could practice with them as they consistently appear and we could therefore actually know what a life form is capable of at various stages of the game which is easier to balance. Just use the biomass system instead for this.
Out of curiousity, are you suggesting this because having an alien comm in NS2 is irrecoverably broken or just because there wasn't an alien comm in NS1 and that worked fine?
I don't see any real problem with the alien comm as it is. The alien tech tree is certainly shit, but I feel that attempting to fix this by minimizing the responsibilities of the alien comm is a step in the wrong direction.
In regard to turning alien comm into a hot-seat, I'd do what @simba suggested; and remove some of the commander's p.res restrictions. At the very least, remove the 1 min delay on p.res flow after leaving the chair/hive.
Oh and a ditto to @ball2hi 's concerns about managing the extent of change within this mod. Showing discretion when making changes and trying to minimize the perceived difference between comp & pub play is important.
So, after having seen a similar argument made by other NS1 vets a number of times, I was honestly just curious (though, rereading my post, that line does come across as a bit of a snipe at you =\, my bad).
Back on topic: There's one thing that I don't understand. Why is the interference from the alien comm so much less tolerable than the interference from the marine comm's med & ammo spam?
Nano armor...
Not being limited by stupid cyst/drifter system to use any of it's abilities.
Let's not forget, marine commanders have the ability to drop a shotgun for 20 tres. The counter for 40 res life-form Fades.
Let's not forget how powerfull hallucinations with onos in the team is. Let me soak another 20 shotgun blasts into it. I guess we need a hard counter for every counter.
I"ll be happy to see bonewall & cyst popping removed completely with the potential of adding something else.
Open to test it, but imo it's not OP as you say. In what situations? Like 4 marines rushing hive vs umbra/fades/bonewall?
I'd rather see the umbra change and other factors than removing from the commanders skill. Adding delay isn't a good nerf imo.
So a chased onos would basicly have to, either get lucky on the right side of the bonewall and live or get trapped and die.
All depending on the 1 sec delay added or he would have to hope that the catpacked marines running behind him aren't close enough to get passed the bonewall with him.
Could you please present a more detailed reasoning for changing this than "...you are instantly stuck inside of a bonewall, which is frustrating and can feel buggy...".
I get that it's kind of frustrating to get stuck inside it (if that even was intended), but in that case why not make it a non-player structure? Let the wall push the marine to the side.
I fail to see how it is too effective early/mid game to prevent marine pressure. If it was, wouldnt everyone be abusing it?
The Drifter abilities need to have cooldowns, not with each other of course but unlike Enzyme and Mucous, spamming hallucinations is a real fucking pain. Sure, there is a cool-down on how each player being hallucinated but when you got all 5 of your team attacking somewhere, you can keep 2 hallucinations up all the time. As soon as two are cleared, here's another two.
I don't like removing onos egg drops. Aliens with 3hives up and lot's of tres at hand should be able to sink their extra res to something and just be allowed to end the game. Only the lifeform cost reduction might make it too hard for aliens to finish turtling marines.
6. Regeneration- Increase regen value
The increase seems bit excessive. I personally find playing regenfade pretty strong if marines are not that great aimers. This could hurt lower divisions.
12. d) Reduce Gore damage to 90
If I'm not wrong, onos can only instakill unarmored marine with charge. I would not want to make onos less effective against heavily armored marines and instead check the charge multiplier or what ever defines that damage.
14. Reduce AA cost from 30 → to 20 res
I'm not against recuding AA cost as way to better responding pve but I would likewise increase proto cost by 10. It's not the research cost that makes the jetpacks more risky counter to onoses compared to catpacks but the combination of pres costs. Also recusing tres jetpack cost should be considered.
From GL jetpack rush perspective I see no reason to making it any stronger. This would also support the proto cost increase.
18. Reduce auto-explosion trigger radius on Pulse Grenade
I would like to see same happen to mines. Mines should not keep the base fully safe against single skulks but this should at least force the commander to jump out to clean the pesky skulk (so he has to move an probably die to mine). Also this would reduce dyeing to badly based random mines which you don't even see prior to death.
Now, this is quite a few changes. Is this what zefram got approved of by almost all teams? If this keeps on it makes the season feel like a joke. Back to beta. Also when doing lifeform specific changes training this lifeform on public becomes considerably less viable if the feeling of that lifeform is not the same.
It is likely this change will be revised in the near future, but we would like to see at least a few games with the wind-up animation to be sure. A likely alternative is dropping the base wall down to 300 or 400 hp, and making it scale ~150hp per biomass so that it is not so strong in early/mid game.
@Vartija Gore does 200 structural damage, it will hit players for 100 damage. Charge has not had a damage modifier on it for some time.
The more I thought about it, I think lessening the HP and scaling with biomass is a good change. Because at the moment, khamms can rush bio 3 relatively early in the game (since it's cheap and lame is less important to invest in) and cysts grow a lot faster, meaning bone wall will be seen early and often as the khamm meta.
I'm thinking generally roughly 2 shotgun shells. If it's targeted and destroyed quickly, it's done it's job in soaking bullets and buying a slight timing advantage for aliens.