What is stopping this mod to being official and being used for pub play? I've seen Hughes and a few others play on Gibs server to look at the mod and considering the comp community is accepting this mod in mass, what is the issue with this being official? I don't see any changes that will ruin pub play.
Also, "Changing the game changes the game." "Balance is hard." "Think about what you are doing." Soul_Rider, that might be one of the most obvious things stated.
I am not one who believes balance is hard, nor that a complex game like NS2 needs many of the tradeoffs currently incorporated. That being said, true balance is not something that a single person can comment on, declare as complete, or even realistically begin to describe. Balancing a game, to me, is less about statistics and more about vision, gameplay and utility. To 'balance' a game, I think you must first figure out what you want from the game, and its gameplay. Without a reasonable idea of where you want to end up, its hard to start moving towards anything. From there, I think the next and arguably most important step is creating interesting, fun, rewarding and engaging gameplay. This would be the stage we are currently at with the mod, in my eyes. We already have the vision for the game that was provided by UWE, and that is something that we can bend slightly in places as needed, but need to largely stick too. We need to try to improve aspects of the game to make it more enjoyable, from a myriad of perspectives. I posted this a while back on the ENSL forums, but I think its still relevant here:
For me it would be more helpful to see not what balance issues people see in small things like drifters abilities or lifeforms or weapons, but more how they 'envision' the game. From that its relatively simple to design changes that drive gameplay in that direction.
We are trying to make the balance mod not violate the current balance horribly, so we are weighting utility while attempting to improve gameplay currently, a balancing act that may not always work out perfectly. However those utility issues are extremely easy to resolve imo, something that we can keep an eye on always while moving forwards.
I know I have scared some people with comments in the past about how the changes made by this mod are quite small, however that is my opinion based on looking at balance in this fashion. We're not changing the overall vision for the game, and as such while some of these changes individually may prove too strong/weak initially, fixing that is minor to fixing the gameplay.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2014
I'd just like to share a question that pop into my head:
Would it beneficial for the competitive mod to aim to be balanced for smaller games (5v5, or even 4v4)? Certain mechanisms (such as damage scaling) could be added to allow balance to scale into higher play counts as well.
From my understanding, a lot of online FPS/MOBA games choose 5v5 as their standard size to make them accessible.
I know this will be quite a challenge, but it could possibly revitalize the pub scene. There are currently a lot of empty servers, which are visited by two to four players, for just a few minutes, then leave to queue up in one of the 12v12 server, because they do not have the time to wait for the chance of others joining.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Let me re-phrase.
What I was getting at was that making balance changes morphs very quickly into gameplay changes, especially in a complicated game like NS2. Once you start, the process can very quickly end up at a great place for the mod and it's players, but can turn out to be significantly different from the base game, thus inhibiting the transfer of public to comp players.
@CyberKun - You really think UWE are going to make time to implement the balance mod? With the publicised stance that they will only make small updates to the game to avoid bugs creeping in, how would they get this mod in there?
It's really up to the mod and competitive communities to keep this game going as long as it can. Modders to generate new player interest, maybe from players not initially into the main game, and comp players to keep NS2 in the news and spreading the word of the main game. If Comp play ends up differing too much from Pub play, it will become confusing to new players.
I feel like the compmod is not just about balance for comp play, it's about improving the game as a whole. So I think it's a great thing that modders/veteran players are dedicating themselves to further refine NS2 now that UWE has shifted it's focus to Subnautica. Imo, the compmod will more likely lengthen NS2's shelf life rather than shorten it. If it turns out to be quite the hit among comp players, I wouldn't be surprised to see more and more pub servers adopting the compmod as well.
Sure, new players might get confused initially, but new players get confused initially anyway. They'll still have the choice to play vanilla only. And those who are scared off to enter the comp scene because of some changes wouldn't last long anyway even if the nsl was still running vanilla.
As Cyber stated I have been running the mod on my public server, and so far things seem to be working out very well. If anybody who has been playing on my server has any feedback related to the mod, please do not hesitate to post it here. Just keep in mind that your feedback will be relating to how the mod plays out in pubs, so be sure to specify that.
I have just discovered this thread since I have been absent from the forums for some time but it has been a interesting thread so far. Since I play in the lower divison (3), I will keep an eye on the metabolize ability which is unfamiliar to me because I have never played Ns1.
To add to some statements made some pages before, I believe that next to tactics also aim can be significantly improved with consistent training. I admit for some it might come more natural but I have myself practiced 1 vs. 1 (thanks to herakles here btw) with some people over an extended amount of time and I have noticed that my aim has improved noticeably since then. (It dropped again after I did not practice regulary because of university stress)
I personally believe that besides aim lower division teams, don´t perform as well as higher division teams is because they cannot adapt accordingly to situations which are unfamiliar to them. However, this might only be my own foolish belief but I like to see this changes as challenges.
But in the end, I agree that it is necessary to take lower divisions into account when talking about balance. I can understand that especially in division 4 not all people have the time to commit themselves to the game as much as they might like to and making changes who "might" lead to similiar results in every game (I am talking about 2:2 all alien wins), could lead to boring lower divison games.
I thank you for your timing reading this response from a player who only recently has joined the ensl and is excited in which way it evolves.
Greetings,
[HBZ] Warforce17
P.S.
I just felt like writing in this polite way and sorry for any mistakes (grammatical and such) as I dont have time to check right now.
Suggestion. Considering this isn't globally implemented, it would be nice if there was a watermark in the spec interface when watching. Something small and out of the way. Version as well if one wants to get fancy.
I've just configured and started [SWE] The Thirsty Onos # CompMod. It is located in Stockholm, Sweden. I have tried to configure it like the servers used for competitive play but since I'm a pubber I'm not sure I've gotten everything right. It has 18 player slots and 33 % friendly fire. Mods:
CompMod
NS2+
Shine Admin
Shine NS2Stats
Pregame Plus
Player names on minimap
Mineshaft fix
Cross spawns
No first person spectate
Jambi and Kodiak
Have I forgotten anything? The idea is to give the more experienced pub players a chance to try the game the way the pros play it.
Dragon updated CompMod for 265 compatibility, yay Dragon!
There are a few new changes in it as well:
Changes:
-Add ability to research 1 thing per hive instead of 1 thing globally (allows multiple simultaneous researches). The Lifeform Research button is now located on the hive(s).
-increase babbler research cost from 5 → 10 tres
-Babblers are now unhealable, reduced babbler HP to 5 (1 bullet soak only now, not 2)
-Increase gorge tunnel p-res cost from 2 → 3
-Umbra is now a homogenous flat 25% reduction across all weapons (previously had a 36% exception for Shotguns)
-Stab has had the movement impairing aspects removed since shadowstep is no longer in the game to compliment it. You cannot blink while casting it but you should be able to jump, and it no longer slows your momentum.
Fixes:
-When below 25 energy, if you press MovementSpecial to Metabolize, it will switch your weapon to #2slot and you will be unable to swipe
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2014
Would it be too much to ask for an "Improved Blink" upgrade that allows Blink to propel in multiple directions like (a slower version of) Shadow Step?
Since Vortex and SS were both taken out, Fade movement seems rather lackluster. If rapid backward and side-sliding floating Fades look ridiculous, they can simply be limited to be used in half-second bursts.
This is a bit of a wild idea, and admittedly a bit on the crazy side.
I know that Balance Mod V3 is being worked on, and I thought of a possible idea for the Flamethrower to make it viable for 6v6 play.
Right clicking will launch a ball of Oil at the cost of ~22 ammo out of the 50. Basically looks like the Gorge Bile Bomb. Once it lands on the ground, the area is coated with Oil. The Oil will last for like 20 seconds. If the Oil is lite on fire at all, it will deal ~100 normal damage over ~.4 seconds in an area as the area is lite in flames. Maybe for a counter have Gorge heal spray remove the Oil.
The general idea for this is to enable it to be a bit of a smarter way for Flamethrowers to be an area denial. The Flamethrower can be used to plant aggressive temporary traps. This will force the Aliens to play around the area, bait the trap, or just attack the Flamethrower. The high cost means the thing can not just be spammed and normal use of the weapon will give a much higher ammo efficiency and overall DPS.
*Edit*
For comparison, the current idea on the ENSL forums is to make a secondary and reduce the damage/clip/stuff to make it balanced. This is also a possible way, but my suggestion is more for a primary thing.
This is a bit of a wild idea, and admittedly a bit on the crazy side.
I know that Balance Mod V3 is being worked on, and I thought of a possible idea for the Flamethrower to make it viable for 6v6 play.
Right clicking will launch a ball of Oil at the cost of ~22 ammo out of the 50. Basically looks like the Gorge Bile Bomb. Once it lands on the ground, the area is coated with Oil. The Oil will last for like 20 seconds. If the Oil is lite on fire at all, it will deal ~100 normal damage over ~.4 seconds in an area as the area is lite in flames. Maybe for a counter have Gorge heal spray remove the Oil.
The general idea for this is to enable it to be a bit of a smarter way for Flamethrowers to be an area denial. The Flamethrower can be used to plant aggressive temporary traps. This will force the Aliens to play around the area, bait the trap, or just attack the Flamethrower. The high cost means the thing can not just be spammed and normal use of the weapon will give a much higher ammo efficiency and overall DPS.
*Edit*
For comparison, the current idea on the ENSL forums is to make a secondary and reduce the damage/clip/stuff to make it balanced. This is also a possible way, but my suggestion is more for a primary thing.
I can just see dead marines everywhere ... it'll be like throwing a Molotov in CSGO and team killing half of your teammates.
Cool idea... but if the players can't figure out gorge tunnel entrances and exits this just might blow their minds.
I can't find the hmg stats in the notes, which is odd becuase I could've sworn I saw them earlier.
to confirm, it's 20 pres cost, 12% spread, 100 round magazine(or drum, w/e), 5 second reload?
Need tres (research) cost, equip animation time, and movement speed, as well as confirmation on the fire rate to get some comparisons going.
If this is at least somewhat accurate, I feel it would need either a slight boost or a pres cost reduction to 15 or something, but I havn't had the change to run any numbers on it.
Cats probably won't help the reload be practical but it would make the 12% spread less horrid (for closing distance to the lifeforms) so there might be strategies that make it viable in it's current state(from what I can see) but I'd bet after doing some numbers it'll need a minor buff.
Advanced armory unlocks HMG (ice's model) [20 pres]
HMG - Slightly larger spread than LMG, 12 base damage per shot, 100 bullet magazine, 5 second reload, slightly heavier than SG, light damage to structures (same fire rate as LMG)
Comments
What is stopping this mod to being official and being used for pub play? I've seen Hughes and a few others play on Gibs server to look at the mod and considering the comp community is accepting this mod in mass, what is the issue with this being official? I don't see any changes that will ruin pub play.
Also, "Changing the game changes the game." "Balance is hard." "Think about what you are doing." Soul_Rider, that might be one of the most obvious things stated.
For me it would be more helpful to see not what balance issues people see in small things like drifters abilities or lifeforms or weapons, but more how they 'envision' the game. From that its relatively simple to design changes that drive gameplay in that direction.
We are trying to make the balance mod not violate the current balance horribly, so we are weighting utility while attempting to improve gameplay currently, a balancing act that may not always work out perfectly. However those utility issues are extremely easy to resolve imo, something that we can keep an eye on always while moving forwards.
I know I have scared some people with comments in the past about how the changes made by this mod are quite small, however that is my opinion based on looking at balance in this fashion. We're not changing the overall vision for the game, and as such while some of these changes individually may prove too strong/weak initially, fixing that is minor to fixing the gameplay.
TLDR gameplay > statistical balance.
Would it beneficial for the competitive mod to aim to be balanced for smaller games (5v5, or even 4v4)? Certain mechanisms (such as damage scaling) could be added to allow balance to scale into higher play counts as well.
From my understanding, a lot of online FPS/MOBA games choose 5v5 as their standard size to make them accessible.
I know this will be quite a challenge, but it could possibly revitalize the pub scene. There are currently a lot of empty servers, which are visited by two to four players, for just a few minutes, then leave to queue up in one of the 12v12 server, because they do not have the time to wait for the chance of others joining.
PS. I have brainstormed a few ideas to improve Fade Vortex here: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/134684/fade-vortex-teleport#latest
Would anyone interested in the topic take a look?
What I was getting at was that making balance changes morphs very quickly into gameplay changes, especially in a complicated game like NS2. Once you start, the process can very quickly end up at a great place for the mod and it's players, but can turn out to be significantly different from the base game, thus inhibiting the transfer of public to comp players.
@CyberKun - You really think UWE are going to make time to implement the balance mod? With the publicised stance that they will only make small updates to the game to avoid bugs creeping in, how would they get this mod in there?
It's really up to the mod and competitive communities to keep this game going as long as it can. Modders to generate new player interest, maybe from players not initially into the main game, and comp players to keep NS2 in the news and spreading the word of the main game. If Comp play ends up differing too much from Pub play, it will become confusing to new players.
Sure, new players might get confused initially, but new players get confused initially anyway. They'll still have the choice to play vanilla only. And those who are scared off to enter the comp scene because of some changes wouldn't last long anyway even if the nsl was still running vanilla.
I'm really happy Leap rush is viable again.
To add to some statements made some pages before, I believe that next to tactics also aim can be significantly improved with consistent training. I admit for some it might come more natural but I have myself practiced 1 vs. 1 (thanks to herakles here btw) with some people over an extended amount of time and I have noticed that my aim has improved noticeably since then. (It dropped again after I did not practice regulary because of university stress)
I personally believe that besides aim lower division teams, don´t perform as well as higher division teams is because they cannot adapt accordingly to situations which are unfamiliar to them. However, this might only be my own foolish belief but I like to see this changes as challenges.
But in the end, I agree that it is necessary to take lower divisions into account when talking about balance. I can understand that especially in division 4 not all people have the time to commit themselves to the game as much as they might like to and making changes who "might" lead to similiar results in every game (I am talking about 2:2 all alien wins), could lead to boring lower divison games.
I thank you for your timing reading this response from a player who only recently has joined the ensl and is excited in which way it evolves.
Greetings,
[HBZ] Warforce17
P.S.
I just felt like writing in this polite way and sorry for any mistakes (grammatical and such) as I dont have time to check right now.
CompMod
NS2+
Shine Admin
Shine NS2Stats
Pregame Plus
Player names on minimap
Mineshaft fix
Cross spawns
No first person spectate
Jambi and Kodiak
Have I forgotten anything? The idea is to give the more experienced pub players a chance to try the game the way the pros play it.
There are a few new changes in it as well:
Changes:
-Add ability to research 1 thing per hive instead of 1 thing globally (allows multiple simultaneous researches). The Lifeform Research button is now located on the hive(s).
-increase babbler research cost from 5 → 10 tres
-Babblers are now unhealable, reduced babbler HP to 5 (1 bullet soak only now, not 2)
-Increase gorge tunnel p-res cost from 2 → 3
-Umbra is now a homogenous flat 25% reduction across all weapons (previously had a 36% exception for Shotguns)
-Stab has had the movement impairing aspects removed since shadowstep is no longer in the game to compliment it. You cannot blink while casting it but you should be able to jump, and it no longer slows your momentum.
Fixes:
-When below 25 energy, if you press MovementSpecial to Metabolize, it will switch your weapon to #2slot and you will be unable to swipe
Since Vortex and SS were both taken out, Fade movement seems rather lackluster. If rapid backward and side-sliding floating Fades look ridiculous, they can simply be limited to be used in half-second bursts.
Any burst of instantaneous movement was a big factor of how gimmicky the old movement was. I wouldn't want any form of it back personally.
I know that Balance Mod V3 is being worked on, and I thought of a possible idea for the Flamethrower to make it viable for 6v6 play.
Right clicking will launch a ball of Oil at the cost of ~22 ammo out of the 50. Basically looks like the Gorge Bile Bomb. Once it lands on the ground, the area is coated with Oil. The Oil will last for like 20 seconds. If the Oil is lite on fire at all, it will deal ~100 normal damage over ~.4 seconds in an area as the area is lite in flames. Maybe for a counter have Gorge heal spray remove the Oil.
The general idea for this is to enable it to be a bit of a smarter way for Flamethrowers to be an area denial. The Flamethrower can be used to plant aggressive temporary traps. This will force the Aliens to play around the area, bait the trap, or just attack the Flamethrower. The high cost means the thing can not just be spammed and normal use of the weapon will give a much higher ammo efficiency and overall DPS.
*Edit*
For comparison, the current idea on the ENSL forums is to make a secondary and reduce the damage/clip/stuff to make it balanced. This is also a possible way, but my suggestion is more for a primary thing.
I can just see dead marines everywhere ... it'll be like throwing a Molotov in CSGO and team killing half of your teammates.
Cool idea... but if the players can't figure out gorge tunnel entrances and exits this just might blow their minds.
to confirm, it's 20 pres cost, 12% spread, 100 round magazine(or drum, w/e), 5 second reload?
Need tres (research) cost, equip animation time, and movement speed, as well as confirmation on the fire rate to get some comparisons going.
If this is at least somewhat accurate, I feel it would need either a slight boost or a pres cost reduction to 15 or something, but I havn't had the change to run any numbers on it.
Cats probably won't help the reload be practical but it would make the 12% spread less horrid (for closing distance to the lifeforms) so there might be strategies that make it viable in it's current state(from what I can see) but I'd bet after doing some numbers it'll need a minor buff.
It's right there in the notes.^^