Tested out this map yesterday in my server with mostly competitive players and it seems people would absolutely love this version of veil if it would get a few tweaks. For example, skylights as a tech point is a great idea but the room is HUGE without much cover for aliens, could use some extra stuff in there for protection. Cargo start also seems a bit tricky for aliens since the natural RT:s are so far out and nano is no longer a double RT location (Should keep it like that).
Other than that it plays out well as it forces all sorts of different strategies for both teams. It can be a struggle to win as an alien but marines also need to run quite the long journeys to get their RT:s back up if aliens are playing an economic game.
Why is nano no longer a double? Is it because marines are much closer now?
I believe it is to make the map less de-centered. With the normal veil you always end up fighting over it. Both because it is a good place. But also because it is a double res point.
By only gaining one resnode on nano I think it makes it more tactical regarding map control rather rez control. Which makes it a less of a disadvantage for those not having nano. Which also forces the teams to cap and bite the other rez nodes. Which would make the fights spread out across the map rather being a fight over nano. If that makes sense.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Just been playing quite a few rounds on this. In general, I love the map, but, if Aliens spawn in pipe, vs Marines in topo, it is too easy for Marines to lock aliens into spawn. We did counter that spawn system once by immediately base rushing with skulks, which worked well.
Speaking of base rushing.. In an earlier round we were on the verge of extinction, marines all around pipeline. We had 3 gorges and a skulk in the vents by topo ready for the base rush... Guess what happens next?
(...) but I've tried to get some feedback on it, and have been met with nothing, so it's hard to iterate without that feedback.
So true. I believe testers should be a little more forwarding. I believe any feed back is better than nothing. Maybe we can organize a system to ease things. A proper tester is reporting.
To all testers : if writing is a little long and conplicated. Getting into details is sometimes overwelming.
Just invites us (the authors) on your PC as a server and show us the things you want to show.
Wandering in the map is a good thing to properly demonstrate the points submitted. We can talk (like phone). I believe it would be really efficient and fast. You told us, in private, now we know, now we can act upon these things.
I like the veil 5 techpoints, but have you tried removing cargo as a tech point alltogether and make nanogrid as a 5th techpoint? That would make the perfect balance. Nanogrid is easily destroyed by marines due to it's position on the map, so it is a great hive to contest for both party's. Atm there are 3 techpoints on the bottom part of the map, which makes it kind of, well unbalanced for marines, since they need to capture either skylights or topo first to now. Means, there is another added objective for the marines to consider.
I've tried that but so far i had little feed back. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=254947741
It's a layout testing map based on veil. Up to you boys to test/report more and tell if it's "viable". Even if this project don't get to the end, at least it's a basis for other project like this one.
btw, if you really have some time to spare, could you revamp eclipse, in it's state as it is right now it is absolutely horrible. It really needs another techpoint, Maybe some kind of extension at the horseshoe.
(edit)
If nanogrid is considered, I would recommend placing the power node to a more vulnurable position, as it's to guarded at the moment, which should make it harder for marines to beacon back to the place.
Kind regards,
The Tick.
I'm not sure someone would like to maintain Veil 5. Gotta be interesting to play on this map though. NS2 players don't appreciate to play on various maps, just take a look on the last releases: Kodiak & Biodome, they learned to play & fight on these maps very slowly (with a lot of time), that's why I'm not convinced to the interest to make a new "Veil" even if Veil 5 is almost finished & completely textured, not sure whether this map is balanced yet and no idea for the bugs.
You're right on the fact that most players aren't the High IQ kind. But in the mean time this game is about adaptation. We should have more maps so player won't rely on "procedure" to play but more on reactivity, initiative and teamwork.
Apparently the map isn't launching in the game. So i looked at the map itself. I will only talk about the tactical things. My Oracle skills tell me it won't fit (sorry to say).
5 TP, circle configuration, North TP are marine only, South TP are alien only.
Subsector/System way-pointing: This corridor is deadly for Alien. The other path (Sub/overlook) is too long to get to system way pointing. Still able to ARC sub from there.
Cargo: Need i say JP/SG or JP/GL ? System way-pointing is still a privileged access to it (light and straight alley).
Nano : becomes a 1 RT point but with no more connection than the original. Not so interesting for alien. Getting the center in this case should grant access to other things (connection to rooms)
Pipe : is with water now. Watch out FPS drop. It's still a bad hive to start with as RTs are far away.
Topographical : It may not be ARCable from north unless ARCs get in. Check distances. It can be bad in some cases. Example : Starting Skylight/Pipe. Alien definitively will try to take Topo as it is a good way to block here and control C12. In this case cargo may become the weak point.
Skylight : No cover in there. Same remarks but from south. I believe it is ok but better check twice.
East junction+Dome: better check the line of sight. It's probably a little long for some paths
I think it's a little marine sided for the moment. RTs are far for aliens.
Edit:
Ho oops didn't see the 2nd page... Sorry. Well i'm not that far from my fellow posters
Best rush from the vent ... ever...
I am working on some changes to the level around "The Dome".
There will be new access to Nano Area from Dome Area not too dissimilar from the current version. There will be a new Resource point in dome to act as an expansion RT for Cargo and Pipeline.
Honestly, my thoughts, it is harder for marines to control the map as marines, it now has been made even harder since they have another techpoint they need to hold and capture, alien tech pointso n the bottom of the map are to close to eachother now, but hey, those are just my thoughts...
If marines spawn at skylights and aliens at sub, it is mostly a gg for aliens, since they can easily take cargo and sub sector hives with at least 4 rt nodes... I mean, no map should be a gg regarding spawn location... that makes a map completely retarded, the map will be 10 times better with the removal of cargo as a techpoint location.
or cargo as a fixed alien start location, it rarely wokrs out when both aliens and marines have random start locations becuase you end up with the teams starting to close
I have only played 5-6 rounds on this map but I have found that when teams spawn close to each other it's pretty easy for an aggressive team to completely lock the other team in base. How about enabling cross spawns? I think it would make the games more fun.
Pipeline RT is too close to the wall. Etc etc Alien issue heard before.
Also, I feel like the Monorail to West Junction needs something equivalent on the right side of the map. The value of Monorail is vastly different if you are on the west or east of it due to what it can attack.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2014
-The flickering lights in nanogrid are a little seizure inducing.
-Gas lines seems like it would even out the map more if it went to east junction instead of west junction. The walking distance from skylights to pipeline is much greater than from topo to subsector.
-The water in pipeline looks pretty bad without having any reflections on the surface. I'd restrict it to really dark areas where you don't expect any reflections.
-Consider de-crating gas lines and other areas and accomplishing the same effect with pipes, columns, or half-closed sparking doors.
I really hope people are open to including this as an official map along side current veil. It looks beautiful and seems like it has a ton of potential.
-The flickering lights in nanogrid are a little seizure inducing.
I really hope people are open to including this as an official map along side current veil. It looks beautiful and seems like it has a ton of potential.
If this happens, I would like to see classic docking be put in official too because it was fun too. It is 90% the same as docking just as veil5 is 90% the same as veil.
Tried this map for the first time a few days ago and so far I love it.
My only complaint is very minor and involves Skylights only having one entrance/exit. I could be mistaken but I can't think of a single other tech point on any other map that only has 1 entrance/exit. This seems to make breaking a Marine turtle there exceptionally hard.
Maybe add a vent from Monorail to Skylights at ground level with a few corners thrown in... Or redesign the hallways so there are two entrances, one south and one east (sort of like Topographical)... I dunno, just throwing ideas out there.
Would definitely love to see this become an official map. (or at the very least be included on more servers... at the moment I know of only one server running it)
My only complaint is very minor and involves Skylights only having one entrance/exit. I could be mistaken but I can't think of a single other tech point on any other map that only has 1 entrance/exit. This seems to make breaking a Marine turtle there exceptionally hard.
The original NS1 version (and my first NS2 version) of Caged had a similar exit, which I ended up changing for that reason. Marines were basically forced to turtle once aliens set up close to the TP.
Skylight really is incredibly easy to defend as a marine, we held this base for 40 minutes before finally getting overrun.
Marines were obviously turtling, but 1 entrence only is still kind of weird.
Added Resource Point to "Dome"
New Route added from "Dome" to "Y-Junction"
Added Cross Spawn rules so neither team ends up with a close proximity spawn locations.
I have yet to fix some of the issues reported on the forum and I will also next be working on accessibility into Skylights.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Skylights really needs another entrance. We had the same turtling problem there when we tried it. I'd suggest flipping the hallway northwest of west-skylights and having it enter where the RT is now.
Skylights really needs another entrance. We had the same turtling problem there when we tried it. I'd suggest flipping the hallway northwest of west-skylights and having it enter where the RT is now.
New update released, There is now a second access point into "Skylights".
Awesome!
My only other comment from the last time playing it is that the center of the map felt "hollow" without the double in nano. You've probably tried this I'm sure, but I'm curious how it works with a double there, and maybe removing the dome node.
With so little focus in the center of the map, it made the map feel too big and too unfocused. We pretty much used the central routes only for getting behind enemy lines, and it didn't seem possible to lane block.
Comments
Other than that it plays out well as it forces all sorts of different strategies for both teams. It can be a struggle to win as an alien but marines also need to run quite the long journeys to get their RT:s back up if aliens are playing an economic game.
Great map, oddly refreshing too.
By only gaining one resnode on nano I think it makes it more tactical regarding map control rather rez control. Which makes it a less of a disadvantage for those not having nano. Which also forces the teams to cap and bite the other rez nodes. Which would make the fights spread out across the map rather being a fight over nano. If that makes sense.
Speaking of base rushing.. In an earlier round we were on the verge of extinction, marines all around pipeline. We had 3 gorges and a skulk in the vents by topo ready for the base rush... Guess what happens next?
So true. I believe testers should be a little more forwarding. I believe any feed back is better than nothing. Maybe we can organize a system to ease things. A proper tester is reporting.
To all testers : if writing is a little long and conplicated. Getting into details is sometimes overwelming.
Just invites us (the authors) on your PC as a server and show us the things you want to show.
Wandering in the map is a good thing to properly demonstrate the points submitted. We can talk (like phone). I believe it would be really efficient and fast. You told us, in private, now we know, now we can act upon these things.
I've tried that but so far i had little feed back.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=254947741
It's a layout testing map based on veil. Up to you boys to test/report more and tell if it's "viable". Even if this project don't get to the end, at least it's a basis for other project like this one.
It seems you definitively wanna fight someone.
You're right on the fact that most players aren't the High IQ kind. But in the mean time this game is about adaptation. We should have more maps so player won't rely on "procedure" to play but more on reactivity, initiative and teamwork.
Apparently the map isn't launching in the game. So i looked at the map itself. I will only talk about the tactical things. My Oracle skills tell me it won't fit (sorry to say).
5 TP, circle configuration, North TP are marine only, South TP are alien only.
Subsector/System way-pointing: This corridor is deadly for Alien. The other path (Sub/overlook) is too long to get to system way pointing. Still able to ARC sub from there.
Cargo: Need i say JP/SG or JP/GL ? System way-pointing is still a privileged access to it (light and straight alley).
Nano : becomes a 1 RT point but with no more connection than the original. Not so interesting for alien. Getting the center in this case should grant access to other things (connection to rooms)
Pipe : is with water now. Watch out FPS drop. It's still a bad hive to start with as RTs are far away.
Topographical : It may not be ARCable from north unless ARCs get in. Check distances. It can be bad in some cases. Example : Starting Skylight/Pipe. Alien definitively will try to take Topo as it is a good way to block here and control C12. In this case cargo may become the weak point.
Skylight : No cover in there. Same remarks but from south. I believe it is ok but better check twice.
East junction+Dome: better check the line of sight. It's probably a little long for some paths
I think it's a little marine sided for the moment. RTs are far for aliens.
Edit:
Ho oops didn't see the 2nd page... Sorry. Well i'm not that far from my fellow posters
Best rush from the vent ... ever...
There will be new access to Nano Area from Dome Area not too dissimilar from the current version. There will be a new Resource point in dome to act as an expansion RT for Cargo and Pipeline.
If marines spawn at skylights and aliens at sub, it is mostly a gg for aliens, since they can easily take cargo and sub sector hives with at least 4 rt nodes... I mean, no map should be a gg regarding spawn location... that makes a map completely retarded, the map will be 10 times better with the removal of cargo as a techpoint location.
Also, I feel like the Monorail to West Junction needs something equivalent on the right side of the map. The value of Monorail is vastly different if you are on the west or east of it due to what it can attack.
-Gas lines seems like it would even out the map more if it went to east junction instead of west junction. The walking distance from skylights to pipeline is much greater than from topo to subsector.
-The water in pipeline looks pretty bad without having any reflections on the surface. I'd restrict it to really dark areas where you don't expect any reflections.
-Consider de-crating gas lines and other areas and accomplishing the same effect with pipes, columns, or half-closed sparking doors.
I really hope people are open to including this as an official map along side current veil. It looks beautiful and seems like it has a ton of potential.
My only complaint is very minor and involves Skylights only having one entrance/exit. I could be mistaken but I can't think of a single other tech point on any other map that only has 1 entrance/exit. This seems to make breaking a Marine turtle there exceptionally hard.
Maybe add a vent from Monorail to Skylights at ground level with a few corners thrown in... Or redesign the hallways so there are two entrances, one south and one east (sort of like Topographical)... I dunno, just throwing ideas out there.
Would definitely love to see this become an official map. (or at the very least be included on more servers... at the moment I know of only one server running it)
The original NS1 version (and my first NS2 version) of Caged had a similar exit, which I ended up changing for that reason. Marines were basically forced to turtle once aliens set up close to the TP.
hah might be overstating it juuuuuust a bit :P
Marines were obviously turtling, but 1 entrence only is still kind of weird.
Added Resource Point to "Dome"
New Route added from "Dome" to "Y-Junction"
Added Cross Spawn rules so neither team ends up with a close proximity spawn locations.
I have yet to fix some of the issues reported on the forum and I will also next be working on accessibility into Skylights.
You need put a ring on one of those pipes.
He's on it.
My only other comment from the last time playing it is that the center of the map felt "hollow" without the double in nano. You've probably tried this I'm sure, but I'm curious how it works with a double there, and maybe removing the dome node.
With so little focus in the center of the map, it made the map feel too big and too unfocused. We pretty much used the central routes only for getting behind enemy lines, and it didn't seem possible to lane block.