Yeah lerks aren't OP. I'm not a competitive player but I can still shit on most lerks especially with medpacks. However, when I play lerk vs really good players then you always feel like the vulnerable one because a good player will land his shots really quickly and kill you in 1-2 seconds and that's with a 0 rifle, +3 shotguns are terrifying to play against. Lerks are hard to hit but so are fades yet at the highest levels of play, you need to be unbelievably careful. If you want to deal with lerks and fades better, git gud.
I would like to put it this way. Why should a rookie/average player that maybe plays a few hours a week have even the most remote chance of killing you when you spend many hours a day playing a game?
Roo is right but its not the lifeform/weapon that is OP, it's the skill difference between the players.
Then give jetpack ESF style controls....thats what i thought. Not my fault that players don't know how to control it correctly and players can't hit someone.
a handicap mod that reduces effectiveness of players the higher their skill, so a high level skill player would do less damage balancing out game play.
a handicap mod that reduces effectiveness of players the higher their skill, so a high level skill player would do less damage balancing out game play.
that would be horrible as stated before because it would not allow a consistent play. Skulk takes 5 kits now takes 10 hits but later on takes 7 hits...huh?
Play a PUG or Gather, where experienced and inexperienced players come together and form as balanced teams as possible and play the game the way it was meant to be played: with teamwork, communication, and a commander that actually knows how to use medpacks.
That is how to play balanced NS2. You will have more fun, AND you will learn from better players each time you play.
@DCMAKER Have you heard of the shotgun? Last I checked lerks were rather allergic to shotgun barrels to the face, wing, torso, tail?, and back.
In any case, I'll try to say what everyone else here has said but in a slightly different way: Lerks by nature aren't hard to kill. Players who know how to use the Lerk's full range of motion are hard to kill. Removing this range of motion is lowering the opportunity for players to get better and better at something, which isn't a good thing.
a handicap mod that reduces effectiveness of players the higher their skill, so a high level skill player would do less damage balancing out game play.
that would be horrible as stated before because it would not allow a consistent play. Skulk takes 5 kits now takes 10 hits but later on takes 7 hits...huh?
As long as the players knew what was going on, it really wouldn't be that bad.
Lerks by nature aren't hard to kill. Players who know how to use the Lerk's full range of motion are hard to kill. Removing this range of motion is lowering the opportunity for players to get better and better at something, which isn't a good thing.
On the contrary, limiting players motion forces them to think harder about their decisions, it punishes them for making mistakes. That IS a good thing.
Please, stop with this fallacy that the full acceleration in any direction raises the skill ceiling. It doesn't at all, if anything it lowers it. If this is your way of thought, then we should also revert back the beta skulk. There you truly had next to limitless movement potential.
hush now joshhhy, what do you know about this game? pppf! I think this 11-post DC has a lot more informativeaccurateinsightful entertaining things to add.
@DCMAKER please believe me when I say this: the lerk is not op.
Comp lerk players in rookie servers are op. That is not the fault of the lerk. Without the breadth of movement, the lerk will be totally useless (except probably for comp lerks in pubs). There is a reason that you don't balance a game around low level play, which is what you're suggesting. I'll let you work out why that might be.
no shit
The lerk you can not beat when you have the ability to go up, down, back, and forward instantly. As a marine you can't counter a lerk in any way that can instantly bite you from the front go in then down bit again, then fly behind you do a 180 instantly and bite you again. Doesn't matter if you are a pro shot when a lerk can literally be infront of you above you and behind you in less then a second. That is not balanced on any level. Have you not seen the pro players that can fly in bit fly up go down bit fly behind turn around and bit again? There is nothing you can do again players like that and that isn't balanced. That is like giving jet packs ESF sytle control and saying you can't hate on a good jet packer rofl
I agree that it is quite hard to kill good lerks. Especially because of the reason you mentioned, meaning that the lerk can be infront of you, behind you and above you in less than 1 second. However he can only be that fast if the lerk is in bite range already. With an LMG you shoot him low before he reaches you. If he is dodging like hell you don't shoot. The lerk is waiting for you to waste your bullets (he can hardly attack you when he is dodging). If he reaches you and you haven't done too much damage then your marine buddy which should be 5-6 metres next to you (maybe more) has an easy time to kill him. And if you have a shotgun the lerk won't come near you at all (unless he is coming from behind and you didn't notice him) just because the risk to get hit once is far too great
Lerks by nature aren't hard to kill. Players who know how to use the Lerk's full range of motion are hard to kill. Removing this range of motion is lowering the opportunity for players to get better and better at something, which isn't a good thing.
On the contrary, limiting players motion forces them to think harder about their decisions, it punishes them for making mistakes. That IS a good thing.
Please, stop with this fallacy that the full acceleration in any direction raises the skill ceiling. It doesn't at all, if anything it lowers it. If this is your way of thought, then we should also revert back the beta skulk. There you truly had next to limitless movement potential.
lol that was before i started to play NS2 and i wonder why that was changed lol
Hey everyone listen to this awesomeintelligentclevercoolepicplayer guy who has no life because he has 3000 posts and thinks he is cool. don't be a childish tool. Please be better than that.
Just wanna point out that 3000 posts over 11 years really isn't all that impressive...thats less than a post a day....
Hey everyone listen to this awesomeintelligentclevercoolepicplayer guy who has no life because he has 3000 posts and thinks he is cool. don't be a childish tool. Please be better than that.
Just wanna point out that 3000 posts over 11 years really isn't all that impressive...thats less than a post a day....
just want to point out that you missed the actual important part, which was after poking fun at him. I'll repost it for you.
"Don't be a childish tool. Please be better than that."
hush now joshhhy, what do you know about this game? pppf! I think this 11-post DC has a lot more informativeaccurateinsightful entertaining things to add.
@DCMAKER please believe me when I say this: the lerk is not op.
Comp lerk players in rookie servers are op. That is not the fault of the lerk. Without the breadth of movement, the lerk will be totally useless (except probably for comp lerks in pubs). There is a reason that you don't balance a game around low level play, which is what you're suggesting. I'll let you work out why that might be.
no shit
The lerk you can not beat when you have the ability to go up, down, back, and forward instantly. As a marine you can't counter a lerk in any way that can instantly bite you from the front go in then down bit again, then fly behind you do a 180 instantly and bite you again. Doesn't matter if you are a pro shot when a lerk can literally be infront of you above you and behind you in less then a second. That is not balanced on any level. Have you not seen the pro players that can fly in bit fly up go down bit fly behind turn around and bit again? There is nothing you can do again players like that and that isn't balanced. That is like giving jet packs ESF sytle control and saying you can't hate on a good jet packer rofl
Hey everyone listen to this awesomeintelligentclevercoolepicplayer guy who has no life because he has 3000 posts and thinks he is cool. don't be a childish tool. Please be better than that.
You'll find if you play some more and practise with people who are better than you, that the lerk you're talking about IS killable if you aim better and position yourself better. I play lerk competitively, so I feel I am well placed to tell you this from my personal experience playing with and against high level players, the lerk is not overpowered.
If you don't believe me, go ahead and play some gathers, where the standard of play is generally much higher than you'll find on pub servers, and see just how squishy those pesky lerks can be.
When you say something like 'even if you are a pro shot,' you should really consider what it is you're saying. If you're a prem or div 1 player, I apologise. If not, stop stating as fact things about which you have not one iota of knowledge. You're wrong.
I really don't see the need to insult these guys, @DCMAKER . They are (from what I've read) being quite civil with you. They just don't agree with you and are probably getting tired of repeating the same thing just to be insulted.
I really don't see the need to insult these guys, @DCMAKER . They are (from what I've read) being quite civil with you. They just don't agree with you and are probably getting tired of repeating the same thing just to be insulted.
Where's that abuse button when you need it...
actually i was civil until one guy acted like a shildish tool in one thread
I think he's referring to the thread that he and I disagree on his ideas. Could be wrong. I hope im not wrong, though.
:-h
no i was talking about the strike throughs and the i have large post count so i am important crap along with saying you disagree and say something sucks without supporting your position. I can say pensions suck and are a broken system all day long but doesn't mean shit if not backed up with a valid point.
To resort to strike throughs and i have large post count comments mean you have no valid point and failed, which results in butt hurt posts like those
Wasn't butthurt - just hopeful. I have not done any strike-throughs or post count 'crap' in response to you. In fact, I never even said your ideas 'suck'.
Anyway, you seem to be describing multiple people - but you said 'one person'. And describing any person(s) as a 'shildish(sic) tool' doesn't go over well and doesn't make your point any stronger.
I'll 'concede by fail', or whatever you said to me. Whatever it was, all I remember is it made no sense. Done talking to and about you. PM me if you want to make me giggle some more.
Wasn't butthurt - just hopeful. I have not done any strike-throughs or post count 'crap' in response to you. In fact, I never even said your ideas 'suck'.
Anyway, you seem to be describing multiple people - but you said 'one person'. And describing any person(s) as a 'shildish(sic) tool' doesn't go over well and doesn't make your point any stronger.
I'll 'concede by fail', or whatever you said to me. Whatever it was, all I remember is it made no sense. Done talking to and about you. PM me if you want to make me giggle some more.
He was talking about roo who was joking about joshhy not knowing anything compared to a guy who had so few posts. Also partially benson who was saying 3000 posts over 11 years isn't a lot. Since you failed to convince him he considers that a failure not a difference in opinion... I think. Right DC?
Please, stop with this fallacy that the full acceleration in any direction raises the skill ceiling. It doesn't at all, if anything it lowers it. If this is your way of thought, then we should also revert back the beta skulk. There you truly had next to limitless movement potential.
That is incorrect imo, and your example proves as much.
That unlimited movement in beta allowed for the more skillful players to express themselves more accurately / to a greater degree and thus have it be realized and demonstrated in game.
(this is not always a good thing for balance, however, but that's not what I'm disagreeing with)
Skill ceiling definition: "This is the term for the maximum amount of skill that can be applied to a player controlled unit with regards to its technical limitations.
Similarly, you can say that it is the point at which an additional application of skill will yield no additional effectiveness due to the limitations imposed on the unit through the game mechanics.
An example: If you were to take CSGO and put a restriction on the speed of aiming (frequently implemented as negative mouse acceleration like in hawken) to better match the max turning speed of say an Xbox controller.... you'd essentially lower the skill ceiling drastically down to levels where rookies would be on par with the best players, and relegating the skillsets used in game to positioning and map knowledge exclusively.
DCMAKER, you're not exactly making a good name for yourself right now. You may disagree with someone's posts, but trying to degrade them isn't needed. As a community based game now, we need ideas or critiques to improve the game, but personal attacks aren't needed. If someone has 3000 posts, the guy has been here for a while and probably has some good insight of game mechanics and strategy that newer guys could learn from when playing. That is all.
Back on topic, lerks are squishy. Very squishy. To counter their low HP and armor, they have high mobility and a viable ranged attack. I used to be terrible at killing lerks until playing in the competitive scene. Playing against higher level competitive lerks in pugs and comp matches make it relatively easy to kill pub level lerks. All it takes is practice.
at that rate we can say the entire game is unrealistic but why stop there -_-
You do realize what game this is, right? NS2. Marines vs Aliens Exosuits. Phase Gates. Nothing in this game is realistic. That's what makes it different and fun. Realistic is a term you would use to describe CoD, Battlefield, or MoH. Not NS2.
Please, stop with this fallacy that the full acceleration in any direction raises the skill ceiling. It doesn't at all, if anything it lowers it. If this is your way of thought, then we should also revert back the beta skulk. There you truly had next to limitless movement potential.
That is incorrect imo, and your example proves as much.
That unlimited movement in beta allowed for the more skillful players to express themselves more accurately / to a greater degree and thus have it be realized and demonstrated in game.
(this is not always a good thing for balance, however, but that's not what I'm disagreeing with)
Skill ceiling definition: "This is the term for the maximum amount of skill that can be applied to a player controlled unit with regards to its technical limitations.
Similarly, you can say that it is the point at which an additional application of skill will yield no additional effectiveness due to the limitations imposed on the unit through the game mechanics.
An example: If you were to take CSGO and put a restriction on the speed of aiming (frequently implemented as negative mouse acceleration like in hawken) to better match the max turning speed of say an Xbox controller.... you'd essentially lower the skill ceiling drastically down to levels where rookies would be on par with the best players, and relegating the skillsets used in game to positioning and map knowledge exclusively.
fair enough. You definitely are right on that aspect but at the same time it requires a different amount of skill to be able to be good with a more "limited" play. One has the potential for a higher learning curve and a wider range of skill but that doesn't mean it requires more or less skill per se. Does that make sense? but in the balanced aspect that is true.
on a side note:
Also some were saying you don't balance a game for newbs or pub servers...so you balance it only for pro com matches? You balance for 1% of the player base? That doesn't make any more sense then to balance for newbs. I would assume the goal is to have a fairly balanced game on all skill levels.
DCMAKER, you're not exactly making a good name for yourself right now. You may disagree with someone's posts, but trying to degrade them isn't needed. As a community based game now, we need ideas or critiques to improve the game, but personal attacks aren't needed. If someone has 3000 posts, the guy has been here for a while and probably has some good insight of game mechanics and strategy that newer guys could learn from when playing. That is all.
Back on topic, lerks are squishy. Very squishy. To counter their low HP and armor, they have high mobility and a viable ranged attack. I used to be terrible at killing lerks until playing in the competitive scene. Playing against higher level competitive lerks in pugs and comp matches make it relatively easy to kill pub level lerks. All it takes is practice.
First dont care. Second talking about me degrading people? Seriously the petty crap was started far before me...you must not have read the posts with an open eye or even read them. The day i care about what some person says on the internet is the day i might as well jump off a bridge. Seriously...why would i waste my time concerned about what some random person on the interwebs thinks about me. I got better things to do hence why i am to lazy to bother googling a word i don't know how to spell or use normal sentences. Not worth the time. I'll apply my valuable time else where and save my energy thank you very much
at that rate we can say the entire game is unrealistic but why stop there -_-
You do realize what game this is, right? NS2. Marines vs Aliens Exosuits. Phase Gates. Nothing in this game is realistic. That's what makes it different and fun. Realistic is a term you would use to describe CoD, Battlefield, or MoH. Not NS2.
we have already gone over this -_- little late. oh and no shit sherlock.
It's not really that important. I had score 30:10 or so at the end of the game and we lost. I had by far the highest KD of all players on either team. But that doesn't necessarely mean i will turn the tide of the game. I might be effective at killing enemies, but if i'm not always at the right place at the right time, we could still lose and we did. So, punishing good players just because they are good individuals is just silly as that doesn't guarantee a win anyway.
Please, stop with this fallacy that the full acceleration in any direction raises the skill ceiling. It doesn't at all, if anything it lowers it. If this is your way of thought, then we should also revert back the beta skulk. There you truly had next to limitless movement potential.
That is incorrect imo, and your example proves as much.
That unlimited movement in beta allowed for the more skillful players to express themselves more accurately / to a greater degree and thus have it be realized and demonstrated in game.
(this is not always a good thing for balance, however, but that's not what I'm disagreeing with)
Skill ceiling definition: "This is the term for the maximum amount of skill that can be applied to a player controlled unit with regards to its technical limitations.
Similarly, you can say that it is the point at which an additional application of skill will yield no additional effectiveness due to the limitations imposed on the unit through the game mechanics.
When I hit post, I was thinking that I probably could've worded that better. I may get out on deep water again, but here goes.
Your definition of skill ceiling is perhaps the more useful one in general. But ok, if that's the definition we're using for arguments sake, then I no longer think that raising the skill ceiling is good design.
Instead, we should think about making each situations appropriately difficult and suit the punishments accordingly. Currently if you fly in to an uncleared, or partially cleared room as a lerk without scouting, or maybe you think your team mates have scouted it, I'd maintain, that any lerk with 50+ hours lerk practise can juke a div1 and probably some prem marines long enough to escape if it has full hp.
I think that is bad, the lerk should be punished harder for these clear mistakes in decision making and intel gathering.
I feel, where the skill ceiling for the lerk currently is, is highest in its abillity to frag (landing bites basically) - and that's great. But the juking is not difficult enough imo - and poor decisions are not punished as a result.
Comments
Then give jetpack ESF style controls....thats what i thought. Not my fault that players don't know how to control it correctly and players can't hit someone.
that would be horrible as stated before because it would not allow a consistent play. Skulk takes 5 kits now takes 10 hits but later on takes 7 hits...huh?
That is how to play balanced NS2. You will have more fun, AND you will learn from better players each time you play.
http://www.ensl.org/gather
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133287/ns2-pug-community-looking-to-play-more-organized-ns2-games
In any case, I'll try to say what everyone else here has said but in a slightly different way: Lerks by nature aren't hard to kill. Players who know how to use the Lerk's full range of motion are hard to kill. Removing this range of motion is lowering the opportunity for players to get better and better at something, which isn't a good thing.
As long as the players knew what was going on, it really wouldn't be that bad.
Please, stop with this fallacy that the full acceleration in any direction raises the skill ceiling. It doesn't at all, if anything it lowers it. If this is your way of thought, then we should also revert back the beta skulk. There you truly had next to limitless movement potential.
I agree that it is quite hard to kill good lerks. Especially because of the reason you mentioned, meaning that the lerk can be infront of you, behind you and above you in less than 1 second. However he can only be that fast if the lerk is in bite range already. With an LMG you shoot him low before he reaches you. If he is dodging like hell you don't shoot. The lerk is waiting for you to waste your bullets (he can hardly attack you when he is dodging). If he reaches you and you haven't done too much damage then your marine buddy which should be 5-6 metres next to you (maybe more) has an easy time to kill him. And if you have a shotgun the lerk won't come near you at all (unless he is coming from behind and you didn't notice him) just because the risk to get hit once is far too great
lol that was before i started to play NS2 and i wonder why that was changed lol
Just wanna point out that 3000 posts over 11 years really isn't all that impressive...thats less than a post a day....
just want to point out that you missed the actual important part, which was after poking fun at him. I'll repost it for you.
"Don't be a childish tool. Please be better than that."
Wp @Benson
You'll find if you play some more and practise with people who are better than you, that the lerk you're talking about IS killable if you aim better and position yourself better. I play lerk competitively, so I feel I am well placed to tell you this from my personal experience playing with and against high level players, the lerk is not overpowered.
If you don't believe me, go ahead and play some gathers, where the standard of play is generally much higher than you'll find on pub servers, and see just how squishy those pesky lerks can be.
When you say something like 'even if you are a pro shot,' you should really consider what it is you're saying. If you're a prem or div 1 player, I apologise. If not, stop stating as fact things about which you have not one iota of knowledge. You're wrong.
Where's that abuse button when you need it...
actually i was civil until one guy acted like a shildish tool in one thread
I think he's referring to the thread that he and I disagree on his ideas. Could be wrong. I hope im not wrong, though.
:-h
no i was talking about the strike throughs and the i have large post count so i am important crap along with saying you disagree and say something sucks without supporting your position. I can say pensions suck and are a broken system all day long but doesn't mean shit if not backed up with a valid point.
To resort to strike throughs and i have large post count comments mean you have no valid point and failed, which results in butt hurt posts like those
Anyway, you seem to be describing multiple people - but you said 'one person'. And describing any person(s) as a 'shildish(sic) tool' doesn't go over well and doesn't make your point any stronger.
I'll 'concede by fail', or whatever you said to me. Whatever it was, all I remember is it made no sense. Done talking to and about you. PM me if you want to make me giggle some more.
He was talking about roo who was joking about joshhy not knowing anything compared to a guy who had so few posts. Also partially benson who was saying 3000 posts over 11 years isn't a lot. Since you failed to convince him he considers that a failure not a difference in opinion... I think. Right DC?
@SantaClaws I don't often disagree with you.. but on this I have to: That is incorrect imo, and your example proves as much.
That unlimited movement in beta allowed for the more skillful players to express themselves more accurately / to a greater degree and thus have it be realized and demonstrated in game.
(this is not always a good thing for balance, however, but that's not what I'm disagreeing with)
Skill ceiling definition:
"This is the term for the maximum amount of skill that can be applied to a player controlled unit with regards to its technical limitations.
Similarly, you can say that it is the point at which an additional application of skill will yield no additional effectiveness due to the limitations imposed on the unit through the game mechanics.
An example: If you were to take CSGO and put a restriction on the speed of aiming (frequently implemented as negative mouse acceleration like in hawken) to better match the max turning speed of say an Xbox controller.... you'd essentially lower the skill ceiling drastically down to levels where rookies would be on par with the best players, and relegating the skillsets used in game to positioning and map knowledge exclusively.
Back on topic, lerks are squishy. Very squishy. To counter their low HP and armor, they have high mobility and a viable ranged attack. I used to be terrible at killing lerks until playing in the competitive scene. Playing against higher level competitive lerks in pugs and comp matches make it relatively easy to kill pub level lerks. All it takes is practice.
You do realize what game this is, right? NS2. Marines vs Aliens Exosuits. Phase Gates. Nothing in this game is realistic. That's what makes it different and fun. Realistic is a term you would use to describe CoD, Battlefield, or MoH. Not NS2.
fair enough. You definitely are right on that aspect but at the same time it requires a different amount of skill to be able to be good with a more "limited" play. One has the potential for a higher learning curve and a wider range of skill but that doesn't mean it requires more or less skill per se. Does that make sense? but in the balanced aspect that is true.
on a side note:
Also some were saying you don't balance a game for newbs or pub servers...so you balance it only for pro com matches? You balance for 1% of the player base? That doesn't make any more sense then to balance for newbs. I would assume the goal is to have a fairly balanced game on all skill levels.
First dont care. Second talking about me degrading people? Seriously the petty crap was started far before me...you must not have read the posts with an open eye or even read them. The day i care about what some person says on the internet is the day i might as well jump off a bridge. Seriously...why would i waste my time concerned about what some random person on the interwebs thinks about me. I got better things to do hence why i am to lazy to bother googling a word i don't know how to spell or use normal sentences. Not worth the time. I'll apply my valuable time else where and save my energy thank you very much
we have already gone over this -_- little late. oh and no shit sherlock.
Your definition of skill ceiling is perhaps the more useful one in general. But ok, if that's the definition we're using for arguments sake, then I no longer think that raising the skill ceiling is good design.
Instead, we should think about making each situations appropriately difficult and suit the punishments accordingly. Currently if you fly in to an uncleared, or partially cleared room as a lerk without scouting, or maybe you think your team mates have scouted it, I'd maintain, that any lerk with 50+ hours lerk practise can juke a div1 and probably some prem marines long enough to escape if it has full hp.
I think that is bad, the lerk should be punished harder for these clear mistakes in decision making and intel gathering.
I feel, where the skill ceiling for the lerk currently is, is highest in its abillity to frag (landing bites basically) - and that's great. But the juking is not difficult enough imo - and poor decisions are not punished as a result.