@SantaClaws
All well and good until you come across Herakles' now horrendously OP gorge...
That is because of how they chose to balance the gorge in compmod. Bunnyjump mechanics complement competetive play, not casual play. That change is going to have very little impact on low level play if any, which is the original intention I believe.
I wasn't referring to the BH addition in compmod: if as you suggested you modify the gorge so pubbers are more effective with it, the repercussions for comp play will be very large. And worse, when those comp gorges (and there are several) go play on pub servers, their gorges will be further OP.
@SantaClaws
All well and good until you come across Herakles' now horrendously OP gorge...
That is because of how they chose to balance the gorge in compmod. Bunnyjump mechanics complement competetive play, not casual play. That change is going to have very little impact on low level play if any, which is the original intention I believe.
I wasn't referring to the BH addition in compmod: if as you suggested you modify the gorge so pubbers are more effective with it, the repercussions for comp play will be very large. And worse, when those comp gorges (and there are several) go play on pub servers, their gorges will be further OP.
Hang on now. Let's take a step back. Are you suggesting that a guy like Herakles is going to be MORE OP with a gorge than say, a lerk or fade?
Here we are taking in to account that the gorge is cheaper of course.
I'd maintain that a player of this kind of caliber, is not going to pick the gorge lifeform if his aim is to frag effectively or destroy a pub game. Yes, he may destroy a pub game with his gorge, but if that's the case, he would definetely do so with his lerk or fade..
As for comp play, if you over buff the gorge in such a way that you'd rather have a 2nd gorge than a lerk on the field, then you're doing it wrong and you should nerf it again - what else can I say to that?
Hang on now. Let's take a step back. Are you suggesting that a guy like Herakles is going to be MORE OP with a gorge than say, a lerk or fade?
I wasn't going to comment but seriously, what? That first sentence is such a horrendously transparent strawman... What?! He said nothing of the sort? Read what he said again. Not even worth engaging with you if you're going to throw up absurd rhetoric like that.
In addition I'd like to say that frankly, no sort of buffing short of immense overbuffing is going to make rookies good with a gorge. I see too many useless-and-even-not-useless players go gorge and lose it in 30 seconds as it is.
Personally I think NS2 is a game that is rewarding when you are doing really well, very rewarding when its a close game, and highly frustrating when you are doing poorly (especially when it feels like its one particular person causing that).
Compare it with a game like TF2, which they designed heavily to reduce frustration (like removing grenade spam). TF2 is rarely frustrating, but I also think it is rarely anywhere near as rewarding as NS2.
NS2 could be modified to do the same, but it wouldn't be the same game any more.
It doesn't have to be just theory crafting though, anyone could make a mod in an attempt to do this and we could try it out, I would bet it would be rejected though, and for good cause.
Imagine one example of removing something frustrating, and just see how crap the game would be, we shall remove the frustration of losing a lifeform/equipment.
Remove all Pres, make all life forms and equipment free (once researched), pick your load out at spawn (COD/TF2) style. Bam we've just removed the frustration of losing things. Yet suddenly its not rewarding to take down that onos, or that EXO. So many tactics just cease to exist, RTs become almost pointless once tech is researched. Yes it would be significantly more friendly to newer players, but it wouldn't have the depth to keep us around years later.
In the same way we can't suddenly nerf the people who have put thousands of hours into perfecting the skill.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited September 2014
@nemo
I've always thought along the same lines, for years... incoming rant of an idea, so i'll spoiler tag it.
I think with a bit of play testing you could come up with a better NS2, or at the very least a more fun and less frustrating NS2.
In order to do that though, you typically have to remove some of the RTS elements involving resource acquisition.. so it definitely wouldn't be the same game anymore, at least as far as *resources* go.
You could still have RTS in the sense of varied tactical decisions made by commanders and units on the ground; For instance, right now when Biomass 5 is unlocked you have to decide what you wish to research: Adv. Metabolize, Webs, or Stomp. These mechanics are still RTS based and they can remain without creating slippery slopes or unforgiving games. Same with medpacks and many many other RTS elements. You don't have to make NS2 combat..
What you have to change however, is HOW resources are accrued.. and that's the kicker, since it is pretty ingrained that map control = more resources. But said implementation is by it's very nature doubly penalizing - map control has its own benefits like a closer front line to respond to enemy waves, more spawn points / backup bases, and maybe even morale based benefits. So on top of that, making map control also be the only method in which you accrue resources as a team and as a player comes with the same downsides of RFK : The better player/team gets better tech sooner. (slippery slope/snowballing )
What I propose as something to try out is: A linear unlock progression path based on time, reflected equally on both teams. Each commander starts with X resources available for expansion and that's it.
What this means is that while Fades become "unlocked" at 7 minutes in a round, so does Armor 2 OR shotguns. Essentially it keeps both teams on even footing as far as tech progression goes and creates "stages" of a round in which you still retain tactical decision making on the ground and in the chair. Stick with me here..
The best part of this is now that you've removed the scenario of unequal res collection between teams, you can entirely remove the over penalizing elements like not having enough to fade again.
"But now everyone will go fade for the rest of the round!"
Well, they would if you didn't shape each class/weapon in a way to encourage proper Rock, Paper, Scissor team compositions. (think inter dependencies like gorge to an Onos or Umbra to offensive forces, or a GL needing back up from a rifle marine etc etc) We're already more than half way there in the current NS2 design, so it wouldn't be hard to finish.
"So what, everyone has Tier 3 game ending tech at the same time, and the end of the round becomes spam fest 2014??"
Yes, but hopefully without the spam fest part, again thanks to proper team composition. But you definitely will still have the scenario of 2 or 3 Exos fighting 2 or 3 Onos.. and this continues until.... The team that wasn't coordinated enough to prevent that Exo train or Bile rush even with all the tools at its disposal, loses all of it's bases... Which is a good thing, because it places emphasis on micro tactical decisions and team coordination over the current Monopoly esque winning formula of "ALWAYS BUY/ EXPAND to economically crush your opponent who no longer wants to play the losing side!!". Instead, at the highest tech levels you will be waiting to catch your enemy off guard or slipping up / out of position and then strike effectively.
Map control is still important for all the reasons it already is, even without resource collecting. Even moreso now in a mode where base destruction comes as a priority over resource control elsewhere. Your drive to expand comes from a consciously measured tactical decision like map positioning or a back up base, instead of simply wanting to charge the economically bankrupt enemy rent when they land on your 3 hotels.
Pros:
Removed most slippery slope/snowballing mechanics - You always have a chance to turn things around, fight to the bitter end!
Removed most frustrating and over penalizing mechanics - Go ahead and re fade, respawn timings are punishing enough.
Easier learning curve as a result of guaranteed more hands on time with weapons / lifeforms - More friends to play with, greater retention of player count!
Much less PvE - Focus is much more on PvP since PvP is the only thing stopping you from gaining ground into their base.
More teamwork and micro tactical oriented - Ex: Importance of drifters or medpacks being the clincher instead of getting that RT down.
Comebacks aren't just possible, they are the primary reason to expand, fight on multiple fronts, both teams have a near equal chance of winning at all times - Artificial timers like "Get X before Y comes out" or "Too late, they have Z - GG"... are all gone.
Cons:
Typical map control = winning goal RTS mechanics are no longer present - may be difficult to understand flow of game without large "STAGE 3 ENGAGED!" banners. Perception of the weight and importance of actions are somewhat diminished- killing a fade means you gain footing for the duration until it respawns, it doesn't mean you just turned the game around necessarily.
Relying more on teamwork may create a larger gap between competitive and pub play - maybe the entire pub team wants to go gorge.. you'd have to communicate to them that "this is a bad idea" somewhere.
Commander resource details need to be worked out more and communicated to all.
It has areas that need working out still, obviously, (you must still evolve every time, and nutrient mist costs precious comm res, taking away from potential expansion etc) but I think it'd retain much more players and after some time it might even appease the hardcore crowds when the game becomes more about micro PvP and the focus is on engagements as well as reading the enemy team's decisions.
I said to balance for all skilllevels. In your example to counter mine, you made a lerk which is 'ok' for middle skilled but insanely op for high skilled. That is NOT balancing for all skill levels. Hence it does neither counter or prove my point.
Lets make it completely clear that I myself do NOT have a idea HOW to achieve 'balance for all skill levels' either. I just state that should be the goal.
Yes I did say that if you can not balance for all skilllevels you should balance for the biggest playerbase. But here is the catch... the playerbase is mixed. Which indeed does make this certain point made by me, moot also.
Good ways to implement would indeed be things newbies could use better/easier while experienced players would not care. A gorge is a bad example for one, as its a entire utility class and not a mere thing.
@DC_Darkling, that's just the point. There is no way that I can think of, nor any way that I've seen proposed, that the lerk could be made easier for lower skilled players without making top tier players even more powerful.
It's a good goal to have, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. As you point out, though - how one could achieve such a goal is entirely unclear.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Well glad we are on the same page on that one.
Yes I know its a truly harsh goal. But we should all be aware that blindly staring at the highest skill level is not the solution either.
/things to ponder
There is no way that I can think of, nor any way that I've seen proposed, that the lerk could be made easier for lower skilled players without making top tier players even more powerful.
It's a good goal to have, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. As you point out, though - how one could achieve such a goal is entirely unclear.
You stick to its originally designed roles of harasser and support / force multiplier.
Those roles are pretty immune to causing abusable or over powered ceilings.
Take the Scout in TF2 for instance.. if you gave that degree of mobility a role with damage equal to a Demoman, you'd have imbalance.
But the Scout's speed, agility, and overall role works because he has 30% less HP and does ~43% less damage.
There is a multitude of ways, but all are fundamental design changes and would definitely upset the current balance since so much has been adjusted around this awkward implementation.
I've said it before but i'll suggest it again just because I have a chance to plug it:
Make Spikes primary fire to concrete the idea of playing the annoying spiking harasser role (and for consistency, ranged weapons belong on primary fire - melee belongs on secondary, like a gorge or marine or anything else)
Make Ranged Spores secondary fire to reinforce both the harasser and soft support role while reducing exposure & LOS to enemies, OH and adjust their damage levels to reflect those in beta - back when they were secondary fire.
Keep Umbra where it is at Tier 2 tech, it continues to serve the force multiplier / soft support role.
Make Poison Bite Tier 3 tech, OR if you want to keep Bite at Tier 1 make it poisonless and automatically attack (less DPS) when you are within X range of enemy while firing spikes / primary fire... and then make it a more powerful poison bite at Tier 3.
Now Lerks would be easier for lower skilled players (Less role confusion, less risky mechanics, easier to execute weapons, and longer time alive) without making top tier players even more powerful.
The problem is the double res loss when you lose map control. You lose team res, and you lose personal res. There is nothing wrong with getting out-tech'd by the other team, what makes NS2 so frustrating is you lose your tech, so you get double crushed.
Maybe a better way would be to look at removing the concept of PRES?
For example, it could work on the Marine team quite simply, once a weapon has been researched, like upgrades, they are available automatically. Player no longer have to 'buy' weapons, meaning as long as the armory exists, and the tech is researched, it is available.
Obviously team res would be balanced, but it makes the res game still important, but doesn't cripple the balance.
The problem of course, as this is an asymmetrical game, is removing pres from aliens. Unlocking lifeforms at a certain biomass automatically is not a problem, but a team of 6 fades or 6 onos is. It is possible, but would need a serious rebalancing of the Tres system.
Ideally, someone would mod it to test it out, and try and rebalance the game without pres, and preserving already gained tech. This would make the game less harsh, encourage higher player retention, create more comebacks, reduce 'stacking', although probably at the cost of longer games, unless unlocking onos means a team full of onos and it really is a problem unless you have Exo/JP's. Makes the team tech as the most important decisions, and increases the importance of commanders.
Again, more of a rock, paper, scissors approach would have to be taken to lifeforms and weapons/tech, and none of that would be easy to balance. It would however be simple to implement, if someone wanted to make a balance mod based around the idea...
EDIT ---
Tie Lifeforms to hives, is one way that may be worth investigating as a potential solution. It would make upgrades free, but biomass research would be independent of lifeform research. Team can use skulks, gorges and lerks are unlocked by upgrades on first hive, fades unlocked on 2nd, and Onos on third. Each lifeform requires research. This is one of the options that could be looked at.
EDIT--
Lol, I was linked here by IronHorse, and replied to his spoliered post without realising I had basically repeated @nemo
Yes it is combat like, but the importance lies in giving the commander more freedom to express themselves, and come up with varying strategies, maybe freeing them up to do more micro-managing of players and AI if they choose.
My main point is people keep saying, make the Lerk easier to play. Why not think outside the box, and give the player more opportunity to learn to use it properly, by giving them easier access to the lifeform instead. This allows even casual players a chance to improve with the lifeforms.
Ranged spores were taken away loooong ago. It may work now.
I just like having the lerk be mostly support and combat if necessary. Ranged spores, spikes (hard to land now), and umbra. I see bite as a last resort. But that's not how it is designed now.
While it is frustrating to be the player losing the equipment/lifeform, it does allow the player or team that took it down that much satisfaction.
Having tech available once researched is an interesting idea, but the marine turtle situation comes to mind as being a problem.
Having unlimited JPs and Shotguns to defend a base, or being able to swap out for a flamethrower if whips get echoed in....it just seems like going backwards from where we are right now (I feel the turtle situation is much better than it was). It also feels like it may reduce the impact of killing a lifeform (unless there is a longer respawn time for higher value of tech....boring)
On the other hand, this situation can be worked around by adding a "stock" idea to yours.
Once a tech has been researched, the tech is freely available, but only in limited quantities, with another getting "stocked" every [balanced time
interval].
example: once researched, 1 shotgun gets "stocked", then one more every 30 seconds. Armories would all share "stock".
Aliens would have say 1-2 gorges at round start, with a timer until one of each higher lifeform gets "stocked". Researching biomass levels reduces the timer between lifeforms getting "stocked".
example: 1 fade would be freely available at 15 min at round start, with biomass taking 1-2 min off per level researched while the biomass level remains.
The current system of being able to purchase guns/lifeorms could easily translate into Tres for "stock", with the same conditions NS2 currently has (cant buy a Tres shotgun without shotguns researched/ cant drop fade eggs without being at a good level of biomass)
Benefits:
Tech is free = less rage when it gets lost = happier players = more fun
Due to the delay between tech being "stocked" taking out guns/lifeforms still has meaning (its more of a window of oportunity)
Comeback potential still exists.
Totally just made this up while I was at work, so it may be terrible
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
@Benson that sounds like NS1, where the Marine comm dropped stuff and there is no pRES. So the analogous situation is the Alien Comm dropping tRES eggs, and there is no pRES. This is all good for a good regular team that know what they are doing. But a bad player or a troll player could take the critical item and NOT use it properly and lose the game for the team. The idea definitely should be fleshed out a bit more, as this may remove the economy for individual players (a resource pool if you will).
Lets make it completely clear that I myself do NOT have a idea HOW to achieve 'balance for all skill levels' either. I just state that should be the goal.
I disagree that something impossibble should be the goal. If there is a skilldifference in any game you just can't balance it so that everyone from low skill to high skill can perform equally. This would only be possible in a game that is completely random where the outcome doesn't depend on skill. But in that case there is no such thing as skill you can have or not have for that sepcific game.
In every single game I have ever played or watched (be it competitive or not) as soon as there was a patch changing balance it only took very little time until (in most cases the very good or dedicated) players found out what the most OP strat/build/weapon/etc is. In that case the developers have to react and buff or nerf things to rebalance to avoid things being OP.
Specific for NS2 I have to agree with some earlier posts. You simply can't buff a lifeform so that averaged skilled players can perform better without highly skilled players performing even better as well (except making things random).
Regarding the 29-1 pub lerks. When will people start to understand that all the alien pres are in the lifeforms? Going 29-1 does only mean that a player has managed to not die very often within the first minutes of the game (probably by beeing smart and avoiding groups of marines and biting res) and after that he was just doing his job staying alive and picking marines with his lerk. If you do not want alien players to get this kind of KDs you will have to make sure a skulk can 'pick up' a dead lifeform to recycle pres...
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@anzestral.
You can however not focus on pure prem div balance also. If the focus is on prem div balance the main question is 'how balanced are the other skill levels?'. If the answer is reasonably balanced then sure.. no problem. If this would leave severe unbalance in most of your ns2 population however, then you throw away player interest for anyone who is not prem div.
The problem new players have are not the ressource mechanic but the fact that they are getting constantly killed because they are outskilled by players who play this game far longer than they have. If we bind upgrades / lifeforms to a set timeline this problem will not go away.
Currently if a "27/1" player makes a mistake and dies, he loses his lifeform or equipment. With introduced changes he will get all of this back and can keep on dominating the enemy team. This is not fun for a new player even if he can play the lifeform again and again as he is losing it over and over and feeling useless. [Maybe Onos as exception]
Some time ago I tried out Team Fortress 2 again and believe me 8/11 games were not even close to be called even. The difference to Natural Selection 2 is that in TF2 even bad players have something to look forward to since they can hunt for achievements, equipment. Furthermore, if you are heavily outmatched you can just join another server and play against people that are worse than you and get your "10 minutes of glory". A good K/D ratio, not the victory of the team has sadly become the aim of many causual gamers of games like TF2 and BF4. If you look at the continued support of the game from Valve since release and the fact that it costs nothing to play it, I can see why the game is so popular with the masses.
Our rather small playerbase has a lot of good players and decent players but very few low skill players. Match people with people who are on their level and they will enjoy the game. Match them against the whole competitive community of Ns2 and they will have a bad time.
If you want to just create a deatch match mode for Ns2 which allows players to pick whatever they want form the get go or create this time dependent system around the idea.
Just please dont force such changes upon the whole community but make it an alterive playmode.
War
Edit 1:
If we introduce a system where weapons and lifeforms have to be dropped this will happen:
"You suck! You dont get Fade egg!" Not very encouraging, is it?
Currently if a "27/1" player makes a mistake and dies, he loses his lifeform or equipment. With introduced changes he will get all of this back and can keep on dominating the enemy team.
If the player has gone 27/1, I can guarantee he has been alive long enough to collect enough res to immediately regain the lifeform, making your point moot. My suggestion means that it's not just players who have gone 27\1 who get the opportunity to re-lifeform.
The main difficulty with learning lifeforms with NS2, is the frequency which you get to use them. Having lifeforms and tech more available, enables more to use it. It takes away the player res advantage, but still leaves Tres advantage important, and makes player skill the separating factor, instead of player skill AND technology deficit.
As I mentioned this needs to be made as a mod to see if it can work and be balanced. If it can, does it fit with NS2? All these questions would have to be asked after the mod was made and tested.
If it doesn't work for NS2, but can be balanced for itself, then it could always be used as a 'NS2:Light' now that combat is going it's own way in a standalone.
Either way, it needs to be made and tested before anything else is considered.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I will repeat now the old res system of ns1 and why I think it would 'help' a bit in this regard.
* marines only had tres. This allowed for a comm to gives weapons only to certain players yes, but it could be managed. (not the main thing I wanna debate now, but repeating for complete info)
* aliens had a 'hidden' tres pool containing all their res. From this pool pres was distributed. So everyone got the same amount of res. If you used your pres and the tres pool had res left, it would again flow into your own pool. This ment basicly that if the team had res, you had res. Yes a rookie could flash away all your res on 3 fades but at least the bugger could learn.
I don't understand what this difficulty to learn a lifeform everyone is talking about is?
To be honest I expect that before hopping in the comm chair for the first time people try to 'command' on an empty server alone first. I have spent some hours in the chair and hive like that just to place every structure, read what it does and so on. I don't get how people can think they have the right to jump in the comm chair and ruin games for 16+ other players just because they also payed (3€ in steamsale?) for this game and have the right to experience the full game.
And I expect the same from fieldplayers. Why should we reward players who don't want to spent at least some time to learn the basics?
What is so ahrd about creating a server and take 30 minutes to get a lerk or fade and just fly or blink around the maps to get a feeling for the movement?
I remember I even did this to learn skulk bunnyhopping and not completely fail in the games. After that you will probably still lose lifeforms.
But that will probably just happen because you just didn't engage smart enough, but hell... that's what learning this game is about.
Making mistakes and learning from that.
Yes a rookie could flash away all your res on 3 fades but at least the bugger could learn.
This is exactly what I was talking about above. Just let the rookies flash away the tres like it's nothing making the whole team suffer instead of making him suffer for his mistakes.
The way it is now there is 2 possibilities for this rookie. First he could realise that the way he is playing right now is not good enough and try to improve, for example like I wrote above. That way he will hopefully learn and improve and be one of the decent pub players who contribute to good and entertaining games within some weeks/month. Or he could just decide not to spend some time and improve, keep flashing his fades and stop playing the game after a while. I would not have a problem with that to be honest.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
my ideas may not be the best ones, but at least i try to come up with ideas to make it a bit more friendly for rookies & folk who are no premier div.
What then is your idea to make this happen?
yeah....but trolls will be a problem regardless. And as far as new players, an "avilable" number with a timer should be enough to communicate to people that they can take 1, and another will be avaialble in x seconds.
Also, the main difference between NS1 and NS2 is that the player can get their own guns, rather than depending on the godhand from the sky to look at their KDR to see if they are a good investment (hint, i never was )
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
The benefit is that if good players keep their life forms alive, there are more 'in the bank' for rookies and me to throw away.
It is all good coming up with theoretical reasons against it, but it is a valid idea that needs developing and testing in a mod. Then we can find real problems with it and come up with real solutions, rather than facing theoretical problems that aren't obvious hard blocks.
A strong individual by itself isn't a problem, it doesn't hamper most other games. The problem in NS2 is a strong individual is doubly punishing, not only do they stop opponents in their tracks (killing lifeforms/equipment), but they provide incredible map control. Map control directly relates to economy (which drives upgrades) and to freedom to attack aggressively with forward positions. The so called snowball effect.
One alternative is to de-power the map instead.
Right now Veil has 10 Res Towers. So thats a maximum resource capability on the Map of
105 TRes per minute / 10.5 PRes per minute
Which at maximum imbalance, means one team gets 100 TRes (10 RTs), to the other teams 5 TRes (0 RTs) per minute. 95% to 5% under the most terrible conditions.
A close but not quite even example, would have one team with 6 (60 Tres) and the other with 4 (40 Tres). 60% to 40%, which is a massive difference. 7/3 makes it so that the winning team has over double the income.
This isn't that bad when the teams are even skill wise and are trading RTs. It is a massive problem if one team has the greater skill level, it snowballs too fast for public games since a single great player can be responsible for maintaining at the very least a 6/4 split for the entire duration of the game. They perform even better with upgrades!
Alternative
1. Each team has a natural income of 25/Tres 2.5/Pres per minute, which flows in regardless of number of RTs, and gets added to by capping more RTs.
2. Every RT has its income rate reduced by 50%.
Maximum resource capability of the map changes to 100 Tres/minute, 10 Pres/minute.
A 6 res node to 4 res node split would equate to one team getting 55 TRes/minute to the other teams 45 TRes/minute. 55% to 45%.
A 7 res node to 3 res node split would equate to one team getting 60 TRes/minute to the other teams 40 TRes/minute. 60% to 40%.
The numbers for maximum imbalance result in one team getting 75 TRes/Minute to the other teams 25 TRes/minute.
Rationale:
1. A very powerful player can only be in one place at one time, this reduces the impact that has on economy and the snowball effect.
2. Inhibits overly aggressive early game expansion as an RT will take 3 minutes to pay for itself!
3. Extensive early game map control simply gives you an advantage, instead of mercilessly crippling the losing side.
4. Commanders of a losing side will have a reasonable income at all times so they can ACTUALLY DO THINGS, even when losing. Hopefully it might make commanding more interesting so people actually want to do it.
5. Typical behaviours of new players such as hurling themselves at enemies instead of res biting wont be so painfully detrimental to the team (steam sales anyone?)
6. The typical strategy of winning because you have the better players, and then sitting on 80% map control until you have unlocked everything wont be nearly as effective.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I like the goal (obviously, just look at my suggestion above) but I believe you need to completely remove map control leading to resource collection.
Like my idea, why not ensure both teams progress in tech unlocks equally?
What's the down side to this?
It's not like tech progression is the skillful part - choosing what to research and utilize is.
@IronHorse I was chatting to ShellMo about your concept of it at lunch time. I think your idea is the superior idea, however what are we going to do with the rest of the map? There would be a lot of map that doesn't make sense without resource nodes to put there. I am also worried about such a massive paradigm shift not being accepted by the community.
I have basically just found a stepping stone between your concept, and the game as it currently stands. Mostly to try and mitigate some of the cons that you have identified.
In addition, with this stepping stone the only modifications to the code required are.
1. Remove the code that gives resources equivalent of 0.5 Res towers when there are no active res towers for that team.
2. Half the variable that stores the amount of res resource nodes provide.
3. Add a constant to the function that determines resource income.
Which does not solve the problem but it improves it by reducing how imbalanced the resource generation would be. Also, the marines would be gaining less res from that RT imbalance, which means you wont be facing enemies with as many upgrades as you otherwise would have when you finally evolve again.
This is even more significant if you imagine your fade lasts for say 5 minutes. Instead of waiting another 6.6 minutes to go fade again, you only have to wait 3.75 minutes. Almost half the amount of time. In fact during that time you have to wait to go fade again the marines will have only pulled ahead by 75 res instead of 264!
You would actually stand a chance, and player skill suddenly becomes more important than RTS economy.
Comments
I wasn't referring to the BH addition in compmod: if as you suggested you modify the gorge so pubbers are more effective with it, the repercussions for comp play will be very large. And worse, when those comp gorges (and there are several) go play on pub servers, their gorges will be further OP.
Here we are taking in to account that the gorge is cheaper of course.
I'd maintain that a player of this kind of caliber, is not going to pick the gorge lifeform if his aim is to frag effectively or destroy a pub game. Yes, he may destroy a pub game with his gorge, but if that's the case, he would definetely do so with his lerk or fade..
As for comp play, if you over buff the gorge in such a way that you'd rather have a 2nd gorge than a lerk on the field, then you're doing it wrong and you should nerf it again - what else can I say to that?
In addition I'd like to say that frankly, no sort of buffing short of immense overbuffing is going to make rookies good with a gorge. I see too many useless-and-even-not-useless players go gorge and lose it in 30 seconds as it is.
Compare it with a game like TF2, which they designed heavily to reduce frustration (like removing grenade spam). TF2 is rarely frustrating, but I also think it is rarely anywhere near as rewarding as NS2.
NS2 could be modified to do the same, but it wouldn't be the same game any more.
It doesn't have to be just theory crafting though, anyone could make a mod in an attempt to do this and we could try it out, I would bet it would be rejected though, and for good cause.
Imagine one example of removing something frustrating, and just see how crap the game would be, we shall remove the frustration of losing a lifeform/equipment.
Remove all Pres, make all life forms and equipment free (once researched), pick your load out at spawn (COD/TF2) style. Bam we've just removed the frustration of losing things. Yet suddenly its not rewarding to take down that onos, or that EXO. So many tactics just cease to exist, RTs become almost pointless once tech is researched. Yes it would be significantly more friendly to newer players, but it wouldn't have the depth to keep us around years later.
In the same way we can't suddenly nerf the people who have put thousands of hours into perfecting the skill.
sounds like you just described Combat as the CoD/TF2 version of NS2 :P
oops!
I've always thought along the same lines, for years... incoming rant of an idea, so i'll spoiler tag it.
In order to do that though, you typically have to remove some of the RTS elements involving resource acquisition.. so it definitely wouldn't be the same game anymore, at least as far as *resources* go.
You could still have RTS in the sense of varied tactical decisions made by commanders and units on the ground; For instance, right now when Biomass 5 is unlocked you have to decide what you wish to research: Adv. Metabolize, Webs, or Stomp. These mechanics are still RTS based and they can remain without creating slippery slopes or unforgiving games. Same with medpacks and many many other RTS elements. You don't have to make NS2 combat..
What you have to change however, is HOW resources are accrued.. and that's the kicker, since it is pretty ingrained that map control = more resources. But said implementation is by it's very nature doubly penalizing - map control has its own benefits like a closer front line to respond to enemy waves, more spawn points / backup bases, and maybe even morale based benefits. So on top of that, making map control also be the only method in which you accrue resources as a team and as a player comes with the same downsides of RFK : The better player/team gets better tech sooner. (slippery slope/snowballing )
What I propose as something to try out is: A linear unlock progression path based on time, reflected equally on both teams. Each commander starts with X resources available for expansion and that's it.
What this means is that while Fades become "unlocked" at 7 minutes in a round, so does Armor 2 OR shotguns. Essentially it keeps both teams on even footing as far as tech progression goes and creates "stages" of a round in which you still retain tactical decision making on the ground and in the chair. Stick with me here..
The best part of this is now that you've removed the scenario of unequal res collection between teams, you can entirely remove the over penalizing elements like not having enough to fade again.
"But now everyone will go fade for the rest of the round!"
Well, they would if you didn't shape each class/weapon in a way to encourage proper Rock, Paper, Scissor team compositions. (think inter dependencies like gorge to an Onos or Umbra to offensive forces, or a GL needing back up from a rifle marine etc etc) We're already more than half way there in the current NS2 design, so it wouldn't be hard to finish.
"So what, everyone has Tier 3 game ending tech at the same time, and the end of the round becomes spam fest 2014??"
Yes, but hopefully without the spam fest part, again thanks to proper team composition. But you definitely will still have the scenario of 2 or 3 Exos fighting 2 or 3 Onos.. and this continues until.... The team that wasn't coordinated enough to prevent that Exo train or Bile rush even with all the tools at its disposal, loses all of it's bases...
Which is a good thing, because it places emphasis on micro tactical decisions and team coordination over the current Monopoly esque winning formula of "ALWAYS BUY/ EXPAND to economically crush your opponent who no longer wants to play the losing side!!". Instead, at the highest tech levels you will be waiting to catch your enemy off guard or slipping up / out of position and then strike effectively.
Map control is still important for all the reasons it already is, even without resource collecting. Even moreso now in a mode where base destruction comes as a priority over resource control elsewhere. Your drive to expand comes from a consciously measured tactical decision like map positioning or a back up base, instead of simply wanting to charge the economically bankrupt enemy rent when they land on your 3 hotels.
Pros:
Removed most slippery slope/snowballing mechanics - You always have a chance to turn things around, fight to the bitter end!
Removed most frustrating and over penalizing mechanics - Go ahead and re fade, respawn timings are punishing enough.
Easier learning curve as a result of guaranteed more hands on time with weapons / lifeforms - More friends to play with, greater retention of player count!
Much less PvE - Focus is much more on PvP since PvP is the only thing stopping you from gaining ground into their base.
More teamwork and micro tactical oriented - Ex: Importance of drifters or medpacks being the clincher instead of getting that RT down.
Comebacks aren't just possible, they are the primary reason to expand, fight on multiple fronts, both teams have a near equal chance of winning at all times - Artificial timers like "Get X before Y comes out" or "Too late, they have Z - GG"... are all gone.
Cons:
Typical map control = winning goal RTS mechanics are no longer present - may be difficult to understand flow of game without large "STAGE 3 ENGAGED!" banners.
Perception of the weight and importance of actions are somewhat diminished- killing a fade means you gain footing for the duration until it respawns, it doesn't mean you just turned the game around necessarily.
Relying more on teamwork may create a larger gap between competitive and pub play - maybe the entire pub team wants to go gorge.. you'd have to communicate to them that "this is a bad idea" somewhere.
Commander resource details need to be worked out more and communicated to all.
It has areas that need working out still, obviously, (you must still evolve every time, and nutrient mist costs precious comm res, taking away from potential expansion etc) but I think it'd retain much more players and after some time it might even appease the hardcore crowds when the game becomes more about micro PvP and the focus is on engagements as well as reading the enemy team's decisions.
you misunderstood me clearly.
I said to balance for all skilllevels. In your example to counter mine, you made a lerk which is 'ok' for middle skilled but insanely op for high skilled. That is NOT balancing for all skill levels. Hence it does neither counter or prove my point.
Lets make it completely clear that I myself do NOT have a idea HOW to achieve 'balance for all skill levels' either. I just state that should be the goal.
Yes I did say that if you can not balance for all skilllevels you should balance for the biggest playerbase. But here is the catch... the playerbase is mixed. Which indeed does make this certain point made by me, moot also.
Good ways to implement would indeed be things newbies could use better/easier while experienced players would not care. A gorge is a bad example for one, as its a entire utility class and not a mere thing.
It's a good goal to have, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. As you point out, though - how one could achieve such a goal is entirely unclear.
Yes I know its a truly harsh goal. But we should all be aware that blindly staring at the highest skill level is not the solution either.
/things to ponder
Those roles are pretty immune to causing abusable or over powered ceilings.
Take the Scout in TF2 for instance.. if you gave that degree of mobility a role with damage equal to a Demoman, you'd have imbalance.
But the Scout's speed, agility, and overall role works because he has 30% less HP and does ~43% less damage.
There is a multitude of ways, but all are fundamental design changes and would definitely upset the current balance since so much has been adjusted around this awkward implementation.
I've said it before but i'll suggest it again just because I have a chance to plug it:
Now Lerks would be easier for lower skilled players (Less role confusion, less risky mechanics, easier to execute weapons, and longer time alive) without making top tier players even more powerful.
Maybe a better way would be to look at removing the concept of PRES?
For example, it could work on the Marine team quite simply, once a weapon has been researched, like upgrades, they are available automatically. Player no longer have to 'buy' weapons, meaning as long as the armory exists, and the tech is researched, it is available.
Obviously team res would be balanced, but it makes the res game still important, but doesn't cripple the balance.
The problem of course, as this is an asymmetrical game, is removing pres from aliens. Unlocking lifeforms at a certain biomass automatically is not a problem, but a team of 6 fades or 6 onos is. It is possible, but would need a serious rebalancing of the Tres system.
Ideally, someone would mod it to test it out, and try and rebalance the game without pres, and preserving already gained tech. This would make the game less harsh, encourage higher player retention, create more comebacks, reduce 'stacking', although probably at the cost of longer games, unless unlocking onos means a team full of onos and it really is a problem unless you have Exo/JP's. Makes the team tech as the most important decisions, and increases the importance of commanders.
Again, more of a rock, paper, scissors approach would have to be taken to lifeforms and weapons/tech, and none of that would be easy to balance. It would however be simple to implement, if someone wanted to make a balance mod based around the idea...
EDIT ---
Tie Lifeforms to hives, is one way that may be worth investigating as a potential solution. It would make upgrades free, but biomass research would be independent of lifeform research. Team can use skulks, gorges and lerks are unlocked by upgrades on first hive, fades unlocked on 2nd, and Onos on third. Each lifeform requires research. This is one of the options that could be looked at.
EDIT--
Lol, I was linked here by IronHorse, and replied to his spoliered post without realising I had basically repeated @nemo
Yes it is combat like, but the importance lies in giving the commander more freedom to express themselves, and come up with varying strategies, maybe freeing them up to do more micro-managing of players and AI if they choose.
My main point is people keep saying, make the Lerk easier to play. Why not think outside the box, and give the player more opportunity to learn to use it properly, by giving them easier access to the lifeform instead. This allows even casual players a chance to improve with the lifeforms.
I just like having the lerk be mostly support and combat if necessary. Ranged spores, spikes (hard to land now), and umbra. I see bite as a last resort. But that's not how it is designed now.
While it is frustrating to be the player losing the equipment/lifeform, it does allow the player or team that took it down that much satisfaction.
Having tech available once researched is an interesting idea, but the marine turtle situation comes to mind as being a problem.
Having unlimited JPs and Shotguns to defend a base, or being able to swap out for a flamethrower if whips get echoed in....it just seems like going backwards from where we are right now (I feel the turtle situation is much better than it was). It also feels like it may reduce the impact of killing a lifeform (unless there is a longer respawn time for higher value of tech....boring)
On the other hand, this situation can be worked around by adding a "stock" idea to yours.
Once a tech has been researched, the tech is freely available, but only in limited quantities, with another getting "stocked" every [balanced time
interval].
example: once researched, 1 shotgun gets "stocked", then one more every 30 seconds. Armories would all share "stock".
Aliens would have say 1-2 gorges at round start, with a timer until one of each higher lifeform gets "stocked". Researching biomass levels reduces the timer between lifeforms getting "stocked".
example: 1 fade would be freely available at 15 min at round start, with biomass taking 1-2 min off per level researched while the biomass level remains.
The current system of being able to purchase guns/lifeorms could easily translate into Tres for "stock", with the same conditions NS2 currently has (cant buy a Tres shotgun without shotguns researched/ cant drop fade eggs without being at a good level of biomass)
Benefits:
Tech is free = less rage when it gets lost = happier players = more fun
Due to the delay between tech being "stocked" taking out guns/lifeforms still has meaning (its more of a window of oportunity)
Comeback potential still exists.
Totally just made this up while I was at work, so it may be terrible
I disagree that something impossibble should be the goal. If there is a skilldifference in any game you just can't balance it so that everyone from low skill to high skill can perform equally. This would only be possible in a game that is completely random where the outcome doesn't depend on skill. But in that case there is no such thing as skill you can have or not have for that sepcific game.
In every single game I have ever played or watched (be it competitive or not) as soon as there was a patch changing balance it only took very little time until (in most cases the very good or dedicated) players found out what the most OP strat/build/weapon/etc is. In that case the developers have to react and buff or nerf things to rebalance to avoid things being OP.
Specific for NS2 I have to agree with some earlier posts. You simply can't buff a lifeform so that averaged skilled players can perform better without highly skilled players performing even better as well (except making things random).
Regarding the 29-1 pub lerks. When will people start to understand that all the alien pres are in the lifeforms? Going 29-1 does only mean that a player has managed to not die very often within the first minutes of the game (probably by beeing smart and avoiding groups of marines and biting res) and after that he was just doing his job staying alive and picking marines with his lerk. If you do not want alien players to get this kind of KDs you will have to make sure a skulk can 'pick up' a dead lifeform to recycle pres...
You can however not focus on pure prem div balance also. If the focus is on prem div balance the main question is 'how balanced are the other skill levels?'. If the answer is reasonably balanced then sure.. no problem. If this would leave severe unbalance in most of your ns2 population however, then you throw away player interest for anyone who is not prem div.
Currently if a "27/1" player makes a mistake and dies, he loses his lifeform or equipment. With introduced changes he will get all of this back and can keep on dominating the enemy team. This is not fun for a new player even if he can play the lifeform again and again as he is losing it over and over and feeling useless. [Maybe Onos as exception]
Some time ago I tried out Team Fortress 2 again and believe me 8/11 games were not even close to be called even. The difference to Natural Selection 2 is that in TF2 even bad players have something to look forward to since they can hunt for achievements, equipment. Furthermore, if you are heavily outmatched you can just join another server and play against people that are worse than you and get your "10 minutes of glory". A good K/D ratio, not the victory of the team has sadly become the aim of many causual gamers of games like TF2 and BF4. If you look at the continued support of the game from Valve since release and the fact that it costs nothing to play it, I can see why the game is so popular with the masses.
Our rather small playerbase has a lot of good players and decent players but very few low skill players. Match people with people who are on their level and they will enjoy the game. Match them against the whole competitive community of Ns2 and they will have a bad time.
If you want to just create a deatch match mode for Ns2 which allows players to pick whatever they want form the get go or create this time dependent system around the idea.
Just please dont force such changes upon the whole community but make it an alterive playmode.
War
Edit 1:
If we introduce a system where weapons and lifeforms have to be dropped this will happen:
"You suck! You dont get Fade egg!" Not very encouraging, is it?
If the player has gone 27/1, I can guarantee he has been alive long enough to collect enough res to immediately regain the lifeform, making your point moot. My suggestion means that it's not just players who have gone 27\1 who get the opportunity to re-lifeform.
The main difficulty with learning lifeforms with NS2, is the frequency which you get to use them. Having lifeforms and tech more available, enables more to use it. It takes away the player res advantage, but still leaves Tres advantage important, and makes player skill the separating factor, instead of player skill AND technology deficit.
As I mentioned this needs to be made as a mod to see if it can work and be balanced. If it can, does it fit with NS2? All these questions would have to be asked after the mod was made and tested.
If it doesn't work for NS2, but can be balanced for itself, then it could always be used as a 'NS2:Light' now that combat is going it's own way in a standalone.
Either way, it needs to be made and tested before anything else is considered.
* marines only had tres. This allowed for a comm to gives weapons only to certain players yes, but it could be managed. (not the main thing I wanna debate now, but repeating for complete info)
* aliens had a 'hidden' tres pool containing all their res. From this pool pres was distributed. So everyone got the same amount of res. If you used your pres and the tres pool had res left, it would again flow into your own pool. This ment basicly that if the team had res, you had res. Yes a rookie could flash away all your res on 3 fades but at least the bugger could learn.
To be honest I expect that before hopping in the comm chair for the first time people try to 'command' on an empty server alone first. I have spent some hours in the chair and hive like that just to place every structure, read what it does and so on. I don't get how people can think they have the right to jump in the comm chair and ruin games for 16+ other players just because they also payed (3€ in steamsale?) for this game and have the right to experience the full game.
And I expect the same from fieldplayers. Why should we reward players who don't want to spent at least some time to learn the basics?
What is so ahrd about creating a server and take 30 minutes to get a lerk or fade and just fly or blink around the maps to get a feeling for the movement?
I remember I even did this to learn skulk bunnyhopping and not completely fail in the games. After that you will probably still lose lifeforms.
But that will probably just happen because you just didn't engage smart enough, but hell... that's what learning this game is about.
Making mistakes and learning from that.
This is exactly what I was talking about above. Just let the rookies flash away the tres like it's nothing making the whole team suffer instead of making him suffer for his mistakes.
The way it is now there is 2 possibilities for this rookie. First he could realise that the way he is playing right now is not good enough and try to improve, for example like I wrote above. That way he will hopefully learn and improve and be one of the decent pub players who contribute to good and entertaining games within some weeks/month. Or he could just decide not to spend some time and improve, keep flashing his fades and stop playing the game after a while. I would not have a problem with that to be honest.
What then is your idea to make this happen?
yeah....but trolls will be a problem regardless. And as far as new players, an "avilable" number with a timer should be enough to communicate to people that they can take 1, and another will be avaialble in x seconds.
Also, the main difference between NS1 and NS2 is that the player can get their own guns, rather than depending on the godhand from the sky to look at their KDR to see if they are a good investment (hint, i never was
It is all good coming up with theoretical reasons against it, but it is a valid idea that needs developing and testing in a mod. Then we can find real problems with it and come up with real solutions, rather than facing theoretical problems that aren't obvious hard blocks.
One alternative is to de-power the map instead.
Right now Veil has 10 Res Towers. So thats a maximum resource capability on the Map of
105 TRes per minute / 10.5 PRes per minute
Which at maximum imbalance, means one team gets 100 TRes (10 RTs), to the other teams 5 TRes (0 RTs) per minute. 95% to 5% under the most terrible conditions.
A close but not quite even example, would have one team with 6 (60 Tres) and the other with 4 (40 Tres). 60% to 40%, which is a massive difference. 7/3 makes it so that the winning team has over double the income.
This isn't that bad when the teams are even skill wise and are trading RTs. It is a massive problem if one team has the greater skill level, it snowballs too fast for public games since a single great player can be responsible for maintaining at the very least a 6/4 split for the entire duration of the game. They perform even better with upgrades!
Alternative
1. Each team has a natural income of 25/Tres 2.5/Pres per minute, which flows in regardless of number of RTs, and gets added to by capping more RTs.
2. Every RT has its income rate reduced by 50%.
Maximum resource capability of the map changes to 100 Tres/minute, 10 Pres/minute.
A 6 res node to 4 res node split would equate to one team getting 55 TRes/minute to the other teams 45 TRes/minute. 55% to 45%.
A 7 res node to 3 res node split would equate to one team getting 60 TRes/minute to the other teams 40 TRes/minute. 60% to 40%.
The numbers for maximum imbalance result in one team getting 75 TRes/Minute to the other teams 25 TRes/minute.
Rationale:
1. A very powerful player can only be in one place at one time, this reduces the impact that has on economy and the snowball effect.
2. Inhibits overly aggressive early game expansion as an RT will take 3 minutes to pay for itself!
3. Extensive early game map control simply gives you an advantage, instead of mercilessly crippling the losing side.
4. Commanders of a losing side will have a reasonable income at all times so they can ACTUALLY DO THINGS, even when losing. Hopefully it might make commanding more interesting so people actually want to do it.
5. Typical behaviours of new players such as hurling themselves at enemies instead of res biting wont be so painfully detrimental to the team (steam sales anyone?)
6. The typical strategy of winning because you have the better players, and then sitting on 80% map control until you have unlocked everything wont be nearly as effective.
Like my idea, why not ensure both teams progress in tech unlocks equally?
What's the down side to this?
It's not like tech progression is the skillful part - choosing what to research and utilize is.
I have basically just found a stepping stone between your concept, and the game as it currently stands. Mostly to try and mitigate some of the cons that you have identified.
In addition, with this stepping stone the only modifications to the code required are.
1. Remove the code that gives resources equivalent of 0.5 Res towers when there are no active res towers for that team.
2. Half the variable that stores the amount of res resource nodes provide.
3. Add a constant to the function that determines resource income.
It could potentially be under 5 minutes work!
Your idea is indeed a good compromise. It doesn't solve the issues but definitely lessens them.
But what about penalizing mechanics like losing your higher life form?
In a game you are losing due to having say, 3 res towers to the other teams 7. Then the time to re-evolve if you flash would change from.
Lerk : 8.3 minutes => 6.25 minutes
Fade : 11.6 minutes => 8.75 minutes
Onos : 18.3 minutes => 13.75 minutes
Which does not solve the problem but it improves it by reducing how imbalanced the resource generation would be. Also, the marines would be gaining less res from that RT imbalance, which means you wont be facing enemies with as many upgrades as you otherwise would have when you finally evolve again.
This is even more significant if you imagine your fade lasts for say 5 minutes. Instead of waiting another 6.6 minutes to go fade again, you only have to wait 3.75 minutes. Almost half the amount of time. In fact during that time you have to wait to go fade again the marines will have only pulled ahead by 75 res instead of 264!
You would actually stand a chance, and player skill suddenly becomes more important than RTS economy.