Not really, they do expose new GPU hardware features, faster and possibly cleaner/simpler functions - developers could benefit, it's just hard to learn thing from scratch each year, when you are used to something. You would also have to turn your game engine upside-down to benefit. The Windows version lock-in is unfortunate, but I can understand it from the developer standpoint (If somebody told me to reprogram the same thing for older versions dating back 10 years, I would not hold my sanity ). And there is the marketing standpoint
OpenGL Next has it's place, as OpenGL 3 had it's place. They churn out new versions faster then I can learn them. There are many functions now, that are obsolete and I am not even speaking of extensions(lol anisotropic filtering is still not core functionality), that have better alternative and it is a big mess overall (it's stupid C-like api, checking your input on run-time wasting your CPU and forcing you to write unreadable code, while it can technically be easily done for 20 years now compile-time). It uses stupid paradigms sometimes, and it does not stick to them (some functions are bindless some not). It is hard to learn for a new guy. I say burn it and make clean new shiny modern API.
NS2's biggest problem is its CPU performance, no?
Don't see how DX12 would help with that.
The gpu doesnt do all the rendering, the cpu still has to actually prepare the frames.
Also, on a separate note, while I do like OpenGL better than DX because it is cross-platform and stuff, I think it's going to be a while before we see OpenGL NG.
And, does anyone know what's the point of DX11 in NS2?
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
As a DX11 user I have to say the game is a lot smoother for me on DX11 than DX9. It just feels better, I can't explain it, there is a smoothness to it. There is also a couple of extra fps...
@Nordic That's not how kernels work. Faster boot, yes. Faster apps start, certainly. Faster file transfer, hardware accelerated video decoding, even faster GPU performance (by drivers and better closer to metal driver model), why not. Less energy usage, less memory usage, more responsive GUIs, very likely thing. Concurrent (multithreaded performance, multiprocess performance), certainly possibility. Toned down background processes like antivirus, firewall, indexation, defragmentation and desktop GUI (which you should disable for mesurement anyway), quite believable. Faster scripts and other virtual machines (Java, C# looking at you), yeah, maybe. Faster heap memory allocation, yeah, perhaps there is still some space for improvement for some types of usage. Better server and virtual performance, yeah, thats what they wanted to achieve.
More FLOPS, naah, nope, not gonna happen, not without recompiling your app with AVX or something. If anyone gets some improvement, they can't measure properly, don't know what they are measuring or are using bad timer for that.
EVERYONE, not just 1 party (filthy, dirty, windows users, EUGH! I feel violated just THINKING that people would willing use that Virus-Absorbtion device)
It's old-fashioned, uninformed thinking like this that halts progress, most recent studies show that as an OS Microsoft Windows had far fewer security vulnerabilities discovered last year than either Linux, or the worst offender, OS X.
If anyone gets some improvement, they can't measure properly, don't know what they are measuring or are using bad timer for that.
There's no mechanic that I know of (other than human factor) that would improve arithmetic (pure computation), so it's better to be skeptical about the results. I guess I could try W8.1 vs Linux myself, but its getting little bit OT in this thread.
Oh yes! Get that good ol' flame war started up
I had no viruses ever, not on any OS. It's about user education. But it is truth that from technical standpoint Windowses rely on antiviruses, while Linuxes rely on blind faith, that no one cares to put viruses in such small comunity and on controling software sources. If we are talking about security overall, remember OpenSSL, putting all OSes at risk.
EVERYONE, not just 1 party (filthy, dirty, windows users, EUGH! I feel violated just THINKING that people would willing use that Virus-Absorbtion device)
It's old-fashioned, uninformed thinking like this that halts progress, most recent studies show that as an OS Microsoft Windows had far fewer security vulnerabilities discovered last year than either Linux, or the worst offender, OS X.
Call me when windows stops having Viruses, and I'll believe you.
That's Naivety of the highest level. Windows will never stop having viruses, but windows users recognise that, the problem is Linux and Mac users who think they don't have to worry about viruses, they end up spreading most of them.
There was a botnet discovered last year consisting of around 300,000 machines, all Macs. The reason less viruses are actively running on Linux is because no-one uses it as a client OS. Oh, except of course, Android, that Linux based virus ridden monstrosity. Why the most viruses? Because it is the most prevalent.
You seem to think it is security holes in windows which cause the problem, I have shown you that Linux and Mac OS are actually bigger security risks with more and more serious flaws. Still you don't understand people attack Windows because it is profitable. I hope you get your wish, and everyone but a small dedicated hardcore switch to Linux, I'll stay on windows free from viruses, while your lovely 'safe' OS gets it's heart ripped out.
I work in IT by trade, and my interests lie in security. Sure IE11 is a far worse browser than Chrome and Safari, I'll give you that for sure, but as an OS, windows is far more secure and stable than Linux. I've used Linux in the past, and probably will again in the future*, but right now, Windows is the better OS.
*Once Linux is run by someone over than it's creator..
Microsoft are expected to announce that DX12 will enable you to run multiple graphics cards, from any vendor. Apparently they are announcing that DX12 is able to see all gfx as one resource and can utilise them all.
It's unlikely we will create a DirectX12 patch for NS2. The CDT simply does not have the time or people to take on such an endeavor. We have our hands full working on DX9 and OpenGL for Linux. Now, if we were to get a couple of specialist Renderer engineers then it might be possible, but their use could be better put to increasing renderer and shader performance within the current render paths we already have, would it not? DirectX12 is not a silver bullet to performance in NS2.
It's unlikely we will create a DirectX12 patch for NS2. The CDT simply does not have the time or people to take on such an endeavor. We have our hands full working on DX9 and OpenGL for Linux. Now, if we were to get a couple of specialist Renderer engineers then it might be possible, but their use could be better put to increasing renderer and shader performance within the current render paths we already have, would it not? DirectX12 is not a silver bullet to performance in NS2.
I think a new computer and a better graphics card is the silver bullet. And you get to have better performance in ALL your games. Win-win (except for the other games part, because we only play NS2 right? RIGHT?)
It's unlikely we will create a DirectX12 patch for NS2. The CDT simply does not have the time or people to take on such an endeavor. We have our hands full working on DX9 and OpenGL for Linux. Now, if we were to get a couple of specialist Renderer engineers then it might be possible, but their use could be better put to increasing renderer and shader performance within the current render paths we already have, would it not? DirectX12 is not a silver bullet to performance in NS2.
I think a new computer and a better graphics card is the silver bullet. And you get to have better performance in ALL your games. Win-win (except for the other games part, because we only play NS2 right? RIGHT?)
They should use glNext, not dx12!! It requires an extensive recoding anyway, not to mention glNext will be for all platforms.
Also I've been using Windows 10 for the past 4 months, Win 8.1 and 7.. Yet I can easily say overall 7 is the fastest in general tasks. When I downgraded to 8.1 from 8.0 things were sluggish. In 10 it started out generally faster, but has become slower since. This was all without an antivirus, firewall and minimal startup.
Well for DX11 capable cards and on Linux and Windows. That said, AMD, NVidia and Intel must accept the standard first (They will be the ones to do actual coding, after Khronos benevolently releases OpenGL Next spec.). Also are you prepared to be the tester for them, untill they get the drivers right?
I have windows 8.1 and windows 7. I have benchmarked both OS'es using clean installs on my machine. Windows 8.1 is a faster, leaner and better performing OS than win 7. The thing that stopped people migrating to Win8 was the GUI, nothing more. People got so stressed about the loss of the start button most people never even tried Win 8. If you can get over the fact that the start menu isn't perfect, you very quickly find win 8 to be a more stable and responsive OS than win 7.
What stopped people migrating to windows 8 wasn't just the loss of the start button. There's no killer app; the UI isn't more usable, it's just been changed for change's sake. Windows 7 looks sleek and professional; windows 8 looks like it was designed by a five year old, with giant garishly coloured buttons and an app store nobody on desktops asked for.
Windows 8.1 allows you to hide most of the ugly, but there's still no killer app.
But pleaseee! my soul is pure! My C: drive has never seen another installation I beg of you!
Your commented made me write this song: An ode to NS2
NS2: You're Beautiful (from James Blunt's song - You're Beautiful)
My game is brilliant
My game is brilliant
My drive is pure
I saw a vision
of that I'm sure.
It dragged me to the menu
The dial was spinning
But I won't lose no time on that
Cause I've got a plan.
You're beautiful. You're beautiful
You're beautiful, it's true.
I saw the game in a sea of lame
And I know what to do,
Cause I'll never tire of you.
Yes, you caught my eye
With your stratigise
You could see from my face that I was,
flying high.
And I don't think I'll see it again,
But we shared a moment that will last 'til the end
You're beautiful. You're beautiful
You're beautiful, it's true.
I saw your grace in a crowded space
And I know what to do,
Cause I'll never tire of you.
You're beautiful. You're beautiful.
You're beautiful, it's true.
There must be a unicorn with a smile on his face
When he thought up that I should play with you
But it's time to face the truth
I will never tire of you.
Try this one: its about @Kalopsia's lerk play. The verses go Lerk then Marine then Lerk then Marine
My lerk is brilliant
My lerk is brilliant
My bite is pure
I fly like an angel
Of that I'm sure
I bit them on sub-access
then I saw some more
But I won't lose no health on that
Cause I dived some more
You're beautiful. You're beautiful
You're beautiful, it's true.
you stuck your face, into my space
And I don't know what to do,
Cause I can't aim at you.
Yes, you caught my eye
As I fly on by
You couldn't see my lerk as I was
Flying high
And I don't think that, you'll see me again
But you will share a moment that will last 'til the end
You're beautiful. You're beautiful
You're beautiful, it's true.
I saw your grace in a crowded space
And I know what to do,
Cause I'll shotgun it to you.
You're beautiful. You're beautiful.
You're beautiful, it's true.
I must be an angel, with a smile on my face
When I thought I could surprise you
But it's time to face the truth,
I will spike it to you.
Microsoft are expected to announce that DX12 will enable you to run multiple graphics cards, from any vendor. Apparently they are announcing that DX12 is able to see all gfx as one resource and can utilise them all.
Microsoft are expected to announce that DX12 will enable you to run multiple graphics cards, from any vendor. Apparently they are announcing that DX12 is able to see all gfx as one resource and can utilise them all.
Comments
OpenGL Next has it's place, as OpenGL 3 had it's place. They churn out new versions faster then I can learn them. There are many functions now, that are obsolete and I am not even speaking of extensions(lol anisotropic filtering is still not core functionality), that have better alternative and it is a big mess overall (it's stupid C-like api, checking your input on run-time wasting your CPU and forcing you to write unreadable code, while it can technically be easily done for 20 years now compile-time). It uses stupid paradigms sometimes, and it does not stick to them (some functions are bindless some not). It is hard to learn for a new guy. I say burn it and make clean new shiny modern API.
The gpu doesnt do all the rendering, the cpu still has to actually prepare the frames.
Also, on a separate note, while I do like OpenGL better than DX because it is cross-platform and stuff, I think it's going to be a while before we see OpenGL NG.
And, does anyone know what's the point of DX11 in NS2?
IMHO none. The developement effort was spread too much between DX11 and OpenGL, for any of the two to show any benefits.
Call me when windows stops having Viruses, and I'll believe you.
Specifically for NS2, the advantages of using a real OS are just better debuggability and scriptability of controls.
W8.1 vs W7: 3013/2892 = plus 4 % (not 10%)
Linux vs W7 2785/2892 = minus 4 % (not plus 25 %)
Well now seriously, there's something really wrong with your measurements. x86 has no reason to f up that hard. Most likely, if I may quote myself:
There's no mechanic that I know of (other than human factor) that would improve arithmetic (pure computation), so it's better to be skeptical about the results. I guess I could try W8.1 vs Linux myself, but its getting little bit OT in this thread.
Oh yes! Get that good ol' flame war started up
I had no viruses ever, not on any OS. It's about user education. But it is truth that from technical standpoint Windowses rely on antiviruses, while Linuxes rely on blind faith, that no one cares to put viruses in such small comunity and on controling software sources. If we are talking about security overall, remember OpenSSL, putting all OSes at risk.
That's Naivety of the highest level. Windows will never stop having viruses, but windows users recognise that, the problem is Linux and Mac users who think they don't have to worry about viruses, they end up spreading most of them.
There was a botnet discovered last year consisting of around 300,000 machines, all Macs. The reason less viruses are actively running on Linux is because no-one uses it as a client OS. Oh, except of course, Android, that Linux based virus ridden monstrosity. Why the most viruses? Because it is the most prevalent.
You seem to think it is security holes in windows which cause the problem, I have shown you that Linux and Mac OS are actually bigger security risks with more and more serious flaws. Still you don't understand people attack Windows because it is profitable. I hope you get your wish, and everyone but a small dedicated hardcore switch to Linux, I'll stay on windows free from viruses, while your lovely 'safe' OS gets it's heart ripped out.
I work in IT by trade, and my interests lie in security. Sure IE11 is a far worse browser than Chrome and Safari, I'll give you that for sure, but as an OS, windows is far more secure and stable than Linux. I've used Linux in the past, and probably will again in the future*, but right now, Windows is the better OS.
*Once Linux is run by someone over than it's creator..
Microsoft are expected to announce that DX12 will enable you to run multiple graphics cards, from any vendor. Apparently they are announcing that DX12 is able to see all gfx as one resource and can utilise them all.
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/directx-12-can-combine-nvidia-and-amd-cards/1100-6425565/
I think a new computer and a better graphics card is the silver bullet. And you get to have better performance in ALL your games. Win-win (except for the other games part, because we only play NS2 right? RIGHT?)
Other games.........exist???
EDIT: And you better not have
Oh but I do :O
Also I've been using Windows 10 for the past 4 months, Win 8.1 and 7.. Yet I can easily say overall 7 is the fastest in general tasks. When I downgraded to 8.1 from 8.0 things were sluggish. In 10 it started out generally faster, but has become slower since. This was all without an antivirus, firewall and minimal startup.
What stopped people migrating to windows 8 wasn't just the loss of the start button. There's no killer app; the UI isn't more usable, it's just been changed for change's sake. Windows 7 looks sleek and professional; windows 8 looks like it was designed by a five year old, with giant garishly coloured buttons and an app store nobody on desktops asked for.
Windows 8.1 allows you to hide most of the ugly, but there's still no killer app.
Your commented made me write this song: An ode to NS2
NS2: You're Beautiful (from James Blunt's song - You're Beautiful)
My game is brilliant
My game is brilliant
My drive is pure
I saw a vision
of that I'm sure.
It dragged me to the menu
The dial was spinning
But I won't lose no time on that
Cause I've got a plan.
You're beautiful. You're beautiful
You're beautiful, it's true.
I saw the game in a sea of lame
And I know what to do,
Cause I'll never tire of you.
Yes, you caught my eye
With your stratigise
You could see from my face that I was,
flying high.
And I don't think I'll see it again,
But we shared a moment that will last 'til the end
You're beautiful. You're beautiful
You're beautiful, it's true.
I saw your grace in a crowded space
And I know what to do,
Cause I'll never tire of you.
You're beautiful. You're beautiful.
You're beautiful, it's true.
There must be a unicorn with a smile on his face
When he thought up that I should play with you
But it's time to face the truth
I will never tire of you.
EDIT: I will try to record this and share.
That is pretty good but it needs to be more ns2 themed. Kind of like:
Try this one: its about @Kalopsia's lerk play. The verses go Lerk then Marine then Lerk then Marine
My lerk is brilliant
My lerk is brilliant
My bite is pure
I fly like an angel
Of that I'm sure
I bit them on sub-access
then I saw some more
But I won't lose no health on that
Cause I dived some more
You're beautiful. You're beautiful
You're beautiful, it's true.
you stuck your face, into my space
And I don't know what to do,
Cause I can't aim at you.
Yes, you caught my eye
As I fly on by
You couldn't see my lerk as I was
Flying high
And I don't think that, you'll see me again
But you will share a moment that will last 'til the end
You're beautiful. You're beautiful
You're beautiful, it's true.
I saw your grace in a crowded space
And I know what to do,
Cause I'll shotgun it to you.
You're beautiful. You're beautiful.
You're beautiful, it's true.
I must be an angel, with a smile on my face
When I thought I could surprise you
But it's time to face the truth,
I will spike it to you.
bahahaha that's fucking gold Cannon i LOL'ed.
Now that's interesting, would be great if they could pull it off.
Jeez do people not click on hyperlinks anymore, this was mentioned in the OP lol.
We can already run multiple graphics cards from any vendor.
btw, the glNext has an official name 'Vulkan' starting from this week.