Appreciate your work guys - do you guys think you could tweak the early game balance for the aliens? According to NS2stats, marines currently win 63% of all early games (i.e. games < 10 mins) and it's getting a bit tiresome, to be honest.
The strategy is simple: marines sprint to the alien natural harvesters, kill the cysts, then proceed to camp. Aliens get starved for res and upgrades are reduced to a crawl. Meanwhile the marines cap all of the res and get SGs, PGs, weapons, armor upgrades. Aliens f4 and leave the server. Server dies.
I have been watching this too, it seems a large majority of alien teams are going SHIFT HIVE first, so to make a big change and then see them start using CRAG again might not be the right idea. But I will continue to monitor and discuss with everyone to see if there are any adjustments needed.
Appreciate your work guys - do you guys think you could tweak the early game balance for the aliens? According to NS2stats, marines currently win 63% of all early games (i.e. games < 10 mins) and it's getting a bit tiresome, to be honest.
The strategy is simple: marines sprint to the alien natural harvesters, kill the cysts, then proceed to camp. Aliens get starved for res and upgrades are reduced to a crawl. Meanwhile the marines cap all of the res and get SGs, PGs, weapons, armor upgrades. Aliens f4 and leave the server. Server dies.
I keep suggesting to untie building structures from infestation and power nodes and have them just be separate build paths that do cool other things besides restrict the game.
But it looks like, in general, there's no plans for the CDT to change the gameplay in any significant way, at least not soon
I keep suggesting to untie building structures from infestation and power nodes and have them just be separate build paths that do cool other things besides restrict the game.
But it looks like, in general, there's no plans for the CDT to change the gameplay in any significant way, at least not soon
Bollocks. Just because they don't plan to resort to your vision, doesn't mean they don't have a vision of their own. I, for one, think your suggestion is completely unreasonable at this stage of the games evolution.
Games have restrictions btw - it's not an argument in and of itself to say a mechanic is restrictive. If we wanted no restrictions, we would all play with noclip all the time, why adhere to the laws of physics that just "restricts the game".
@WasabiOne I couldnt find it on the Trello. Im probably overlooking it. But I think I voiced my concerns well enough, right?
all the way to the right of the list, you'll see a few concepts and how it will look expanded.
and as far as major changes, those are still decided by UWE. we are allowed to make some basic balance changes, but anything bigger has to go by charlie.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
For anyone who was interested/curious, here is what the CDT's new Build-System is composed of:
Granted, that's an over simplified diagram, it still shows the gist of it.
If there is enough interest I might do a write up at some point in the future.
I keep suggesting to untie building structures from infestation and power nodes and have them just be separate build paths that do cool other things besides restrict the game.
But it looks like, in general, there's no plans for the CDT to change the gameplay in any significant way, at least not soon
Bollocks. Just because they don't plan to resort to your vision, doesn't mean they don't have a vision of their own. I, for one, think your suggestion is completely unreasonable at this stage of the games evolution.
Games have restrictions btw - it's not an argument in and of itself to say a mechanic is restrictive. If we wanted no restrictions, we would all play with noclip all the time, why adhere to the laws of physics that just "restricts the game".
I keep suggesting to untie building structures from infestation and power nodes and have them just be separate build paths that do cool other things besides restrict the game.
But it looks like, in general, there's no plans for the CDT to change the gameplay in any significant way, at least not soon
Bollocks. Just because they don't plan to resort to your vision, doesn't mean they don't have a vision of their own. I, for one, think your suggestion is completely unreasonable at this stage of the games evolution.
Games have restrictions btw - it's not an argument in and of itself to say a mechanic is restrictive. If we wanted no restrictions, we would all play with noclip all the time, why adhere to the laws of physics that just "restricts the game".
You're wrong
What is wrong about it? I really want to know.
Do you disagree that the CDT doesn't have their own vision for balance? If so why do you think that?
Or is it the comments about restrictions? Are you just saying that he is wrong and that you are right about infestation and power nodes? Why do you think that infestation and powernodes restrict the game too much? Describe what would ns2 look like if it did not have infestation and power nodes? Ns1 isn't an answer.
Make a good argument and people will listen. I truly want to hear your thoughts, they just need to be expanded. I like discussing the possibilities.
Eh, infestation limits alien expansion massively. Gorge tunnels alleviates that a little, but without a second hive, aliens are denied the other half of the map if marines can hold certain points. Restricts map development as well probably, it is what I blame for the difficulty in adapting NS1 maps into NS2. That and ladders/elevators.
Not saying that it makes the game better, just different. I agree with Santa that restrictions are part of games. The noclip comment is hyperbolic and counter productive in discussions though.
Sigh. My point was that it was restrictive because you have to hold the room or you were stuck / need minimum 12 pres for a gorge tunnel that has limited range. I'm not arguing whether it is a good/bad mechanic, but that it is "restrictive". There is no "take the uncontested parts of the map" option.
Sigh. My point was that it was restrictive because you have to hold the room or you were stuck / need minimum 12 pres for a gorge tunnel that has limited range. I'm not arguing whether it is a good/bad mechanic, but that it is "restrictive". There is no "take the uncontested parts of the map" option.
With all due respect, nothing limits you from taking 'uncontested area'. You have to cyst first/get a power node, but that's all.
Areas where no enemies can be found, but you can't cyst there/send your marines there because there's an enemy force blocking the way somewhere else are not 'uncontested', they're being denied - and that's part of the whole concept behind zoning and laning.
I keep suggesting to untie building structures from infestation and power nodes and have them just be separate build paths that do cool other things besides restrict the game.
But it looks like, in general, there's no plans for the CDT to change the gameplay in any significant way, at least not soon
Bollocks. Just because they don't plan to resort to your vision, doesn't mean they don't have a vision of their own. I, for one, think your suggestion is completely unreasonable at this stage of the games evolution.
Games have restrictions btw - it's not an argument in and of itself to say a mechanic is restrictive. If we wanted no restrictions, we would all play with noclip all the time, why adhere to the laws of physics that just "restricts the game".
You're wrong
What is wrong about it? I really want to know.
Do you disagree that the CDT doesn't have their own vision for balance? If so why do you think that?
Or is it the comments about restrictions? Are you just saying that he is wrong and that you are right about infestation and power nodes? Why do you think that infestation and powernodes restrict the game too much? Describe what would ns2 look like if it did not have infestation and power nodes? Ns1 isn't an answer.
Make a good argument and people will listen. I truly want to hear your thoughts, they just need to be expanded. I like discussing the possibilities.
I'll write something longer if I have the time later, I just know it's futile anyway. Wish I had the idea when Sewlek was balance modding but too bad.
EVERYTHING is tied to infestation, and the most important thing that messes with is the commanders then inability to make decisions to work with his team. If they don't protect THESE RES NODES, then nothing can happen for the whole game and it just ends. Power nodes do the same thing, but not as severely.
My suggestion is to just untie them from that, and make them simply give the commander abilities to use in infested area/powered rooms. Now no development work is wasted and the game can actually progress and be "balanced." Then abilities can be added and stuff yadadyaydyada, gotta go get on site
EVERYTHING is tied to infestation, and the most important thing that messes with is the commanders then inability to make decisions to work with his team. If they don't protect THESE RES NODES, then nothing can happen for the whole game and it just ends. Power nodes do the same thing, but not as severely.
My suggestion is to just untie them from that, and make them simply give the commander abilities to use in infested area/powered rooms. Now no development work is wasted and the game can actually progress and be "balanced." Then abilities can be added and stuff yadadyaydyada, gotta go get on site
Even though - and this is just my very personal opinion - I find your balancing idea fruitless and counter-productive (since you aim to make the commander less dependent on the field players), that minor change would have an avalanche impact on game economy and balance.
You'd have to revisit every single existing number and mechanic (How about echo? Go shift, get 1-2 gorges, instantly have 6 RTs up everywhere? What about whips? Sneaky drifters? Having your shaded forward base walk right to the marine natural without them noticing because the shade won't need infestation?) and tune them again, starting from scratch.
Appreciate your work guys - do you guys think you could tweak the early game balance for the aliens? According to NS2stats, marines currently win 63% of all early games (i.e. games < 10 mins) and it's getting a bit tiresome, to be honest.
The strategy is simple: marines sprint to the alien natural harvesters, kill the cysts, then proceed to camp. Aliens get starved for res and upgrades are reduced to a crawl. Meanwhile the marines cap all of the res and get SGs, PGs, weapons, armor upgrades. Aliens f4 and leave the server. Server dies.
Even though this may be true on some servers, you could always counter it.
Marines can't win a game if they're not hyper-aggressive, it all depends on how your team deals with it. Group up and crush them with a couple of teammates or just camp and let them past, then proceed to rushing their base (Quite sure 4 skulks kill the CC faster than 7 marines on the Hive). Besides, most public games end up with Aliens battling for more than they can/need, resulting in all of their stuff undefended & dead. Think of it like Starcraft's Zerg, slowly spread but must commit to defense.
Sigh. My point was that it was restrictive because you have to hold the room or you were stuck / need minimum 12 pres for a gorge tunnel that has limited range. I'm not arguing whether it is a good/bad mechanic, but that it is "restrictive". There is no "take the uncontested parts of the map" option.
With all due respect, nothing limits you from taking 'uncontested area'. You have to cyst first/get a power node, but that's all.
Areas where no enemies can be found, but you can't cyst there/send your marines there because there's an enemy force blocking the way somewhere else are not 'uncontested', they're being denied - and that's part of the whole concept behind zoning and laning.
I think you got it backwards. Zoning and laning are only as effective as they are because aliens are restricted. Again, its not about whether it is good/bad, but how it would be different and proving that it is a restriction.
Sigh. My point was that it was restrictive because you have to hold the room or you were stuck / need minimum 12 pres for a gorge tunnel that has limited range. I'm not arguing whether it is a good/bad mechanic, but that it is "restrictive". There is no "take the uncontested parts of the map" option.
With all due respect, nothing limits you from taking 'uncontested area'. You have to cyst first/get a power node, but that's all.
Areas where no enemies can be found, but you can't cyst there/send your marines there because there's an enemy force blocking the way somewhere else are not 'uncontested', they're being denied - and that's part of the whole concept behind zoning and laning.
I think you got it backwards. Zoning and laning are only as effective as they are because aliens are restricted. Again, its not about whether it is good/bad, but how it would be different and proving that it is a restriction.
Zoning and laning is an integrate part of any competitive fps and strategy game, I think you are downplaying the significance of it. We can debate that if needed of course, but that is besides the point I'd like to make.
I'm happy to concede that infestation and power nodes are restricting. There is no need to prove that as far as I'm concerned. The only thing I'm objecting to, is the leap that this admission should lead to the total removal of these mechanics.
Shrug. I'm not advocating for the removal of infestation. I did agree with you after all, but it is annoying that people just pretend that because there are solutions (hold the room/gorge tunnel/fast second hive/design map around it) the issue doesn't exist. It most certainly does and is possibly deliberate, but the alternative is just as workable, although it may be too radical a change at this point.
@WasabiOne I couldnt find it on the Trello. Im probably overlooking it. But I think I voiced my concerns well enough, right?
all the way to the right of the list, you'll see a few concepts and how it will look expanded.
and as far as major changes, those are still decided by UWE. we are allowed to make some basic balance changes, but anything bigger has to go by charlie.
Thanks mate. I didnt see I could go to the right past 'done'.
Sadly its exactly what I mean.. so so so much of the screen wasted on nothing.
Just my opinion though, I realise you cant look at just my opinion. But at least you have my opinion.
EVERYTHING is tied to infestation, and the most important thing that messes with is the commanders then inability to make decisions to work with his team. If they don't protect THESE RES NODES, then nothing can happen for the whole game and it just ends. Power nodes do the same thing, but not as severely.
My suggestion is to just untie them from that, and make them simply give the commander abilities to use in infested area/powered rooms. Now no development work is wasted and the game can actually progress and be "balanced." Then abilities can be added and stuff yadadyaydyada, gotta go get on site
Even though - and this is just my very personal opinion - I find your balancing idea fruitless and counter-productive (since you aim to make the commander less dependent on the field players), that minor change would have an avalanche impact on game economy and balance.
You'd have to revisit every single existing number and mechanic (How about echo? Go shift, get 1-2 gorges, instantly have 6 RTs up everywhere? What about whips? Sneaky drifters? Having your shaded forward base walk right to the marine natural without them noticing because the shade won't need infestation?) and tune them again, starting from scratch.
Yes you would (edit: although I think less so than your implication, but that's just speculation), and you would then have a much better game. I think this is more important than performance ever was.
Sigh. My point was that it was restrictive because you have to hold the room or you were stuck / need minimum 12 pres for a gorge tunnel that has limited range. I'm not arguing whether it is a good/bad mechanic, but that it is "restrictive". There is no "take the uncontested parts of the map" option.
With all due respect, nothing limits you from taking 'uncontested area'. You have to cyst first/get a power node, but that's all.
Areas where no enemies can be found, but you can't cyst there/send your marines there because there's an enemy force blocking the way somewhere else are not 'uncontested', they're being denied - and that's part of the whole concept behind zoning and laning.
I think you got it backwards. Zoning and laning are only as effective as they are because aliens are restricted. Again, its not about whether it is good/bad, but how it would be different and proving that it is a restriction.
Zoning and laning is an integrate part of any competitive fps and strategy game, I think you are downplaying the significance of it. We can debate that if needed of course, but that is besides the point I'd like to make.
I'm happy to concede that infestation and power nodes are restricting. There is no need to prove that as far as I'm concerned. The only thing I'm objecting to, is the leap that this admission should lead to the total removal of these mechanics.
Sigh. My point was that it was restrictive because you have to hold the room or you were stuck / need minimum 12 pres for a gorge tunnel that has limited range. I'm not arguing whether it is a good/bad mechanic, but that it is "restrictive". There is no "take the uncontested parts of the map" option.
With all due respect, nothing limits you from taking 'uncontested area'. You have to cyst first/get a power node, but that's all.
Areas where no enemies can be found, but you can't cyst there/send your marines there because there's an enemy force blocking the way somewhere else are not 'uncontested', they're being denied - and that's part of the whole concept behind zoning and laning.
I think you got it backwards. Zoning and laning are only as effective as they are because aliens are restricted. Again, its not about whether it is good/bad, but how it would be different and proving that it is a restriction.
Zoning and laning is an integrate part of any competitive fps and strategy game, I think you are downplaying the significance of it. We can debate that if needed of course, but that is besides the point I'd like to make.
I'm happy to concede that infestation and power nodes are restricting. There is no need to prove that as far as I'm concerned. The only thing I'm objecting to, is the leap that this admission should lead to the total removal of these mechanics.
You're wrong
Why do you even bother dude? (Not the first time he's doing this)
Changing basic game mechanic like decoupling structures from infestation / node now? This mechanic is one of the pillars of this game strategically and atmospheric. It's been around since... ever. Changing it now would just break everything. For the sake of non-guaranted improvements of the game (I'd say it'd get totally boring without coupled infestiation / power), biiiiig noope. Then not even mentioned time spent implementing the change, then balancing everything for another 2 years or so while UWE is not on board with dwindling playernumbers. Hilarious
Also there's nothing more important than performance!
@WasabiOne I couldnt find it on the Trello. Im probably overlooking it. But I think I voiced my concerns well enough, right?
all the way to the right of the list, you'll see a few concepts and how it will look expanded.
and as far as major changes, those are still decided by UWE. we are allowed to make some basic balance changes, but anything bigger has to go by charlie.
Thanks mate. I didnt see I could go to the right past 'done'.
Sadly its exactly what I mean.. so so so much of the screen wasted on nothing.
Just my opinion though, I realise you cant look at just my opinion. But at least you have my opinion.
If some ideas or mockups send them my way to look at, always happy to look at alternatives. The biggest issue was UWE really wanted the backgrounds to be seen since a lot of time had gone into them, but I tend to agree that its wasted space. Just cant win every argument
Comments
I have been watching this too, it seems a large majority of alien teams are going SHIFT HIVE first, so to make a big change and then see them start using CRAG again might not be the right idea. But I will continue to monitor and discuss with everyone to see if there are any adjustments needed.
I keep suggesting to untie building structures from infestation and power nodes and have them just be separate build paths that do cool other things besides restrict the game.
But it looks like, in general, there's no plans for the CDT to change the gameplay in any significant way, at least not soon
So rude
Games have restrictions btw - it's not an argument in and of itself to say a mechanic is restrictive. If we wanted no restrictions, we would all play with noclip all the time, why adhere to the laws of physics that just "restricts the game".
all the way to the right of the list, you'll see a few concepts and how it will look expanded.
and as far as major changes, those are still decided by UWE. we are allowed to make some basic balance changes, but anything bigger has to go by charlie.
If there is enough interest I might do a write up at some point in the future.
*flies back to build-system land*
You're wrong
What is wrong about it? I really want to know.
Do you disagree that the CDT doesn't have their own vision for balance? If so why do you think that?
Or is it the comments about restrictions? Are you just saying that he is wrong and that you are right about infestation and power nodes? Why do you think that infestation and powernodes restrict the game too much? Describe what would ns2 look like if it did not have infestation and power nodes? Ns1 isn't an answer.
Make a good argument and people will listen. I truly want to hear your thoughts, they just need to be expanded. I like discussing the possibilities.
Not saying that it makes the game better, just different. I agree with Santa that restrictions are part of games. The noclip comment is hyperbolic and counter productive in discussions though.
With all due respect, nothing limits you from taking 'uncontested area'. You have to cyst first/get a power node, but that's all.
Areas where no enemies can be found, but you can't cyst there/send your marines there because there's an enemy force blocking the way somewhere else are not 'uncontested', they're being denied - and that's part of the whole concept behind zoning and laning.
I'll write something longer if I have the time later, I just know it's futile anyway. Wish I had the idea when Sewlek was balance modding but too bad.
EVERYTHING is tied to infestation, and the most important thing that messes with is the commanders then inability to make decisions to work with his team. If they don't protect THESE RES NODES, then nothing can happen for the whole game and it just ends. Power nodes do the same thing, but not as severely.
My suggestion is to just untie them from that, and make them simply give the commander abilities to use in infested area/powered rooms. Now no development work is wasted and the game can actually progress and be "balanced." Then abilities can be added and stuff yadadyaydyada, gotta go get on site
Even though - and this is just my very personal opinion - I find your balancing idea fruitless and counter-productive (since you aim to make the commander less dependent on the field players), that minor change would have an avalanche impact on game economy and balance.
You'd have to revisit every single existing number and mechanic (How about echo? Go shift, get 1-2 gorges, instantly have 6 RTs up everywhere? What about whips? Sneaky drifters? Having your shaded forward base walk right to the marine natural without them noticing because the shade won't need infestation?) and tune them again, starting from scratch.
Even though this may be true on some servers, you could always counter it.
Marines can't win a game if they're not hyper-aggressive, it all depends on how your team deals with it. Group up and crush them with a couple of teammates or just camp and let them past, then proceed to rushing their base (Quite sure 4 skulks kill the CC faster than 7 marines on the Hive). Besides, most public games end up with Aliens battling for more than they can/need, resulting in all of their stuff undefended & dead. Think of it like Starcraft's Zerg, slowly spread but must commit to defense.
imo
I think you got it backwards. Zoning and laning are only as effective as they are because aliens are restricted. Again, its not about whether it is good/bad, but how it would be different and proving that it is a restriction.
I'm happy to concede that infestation and power nodes are restricting. There is no need to prove that as far as I'm concerned. The only thing I'm objecting to, is the leap that this admission should lead to the total removal of these mechanics.
Thanks mate. I didnt see I could go to the right past 'done'.
Sadly its exactly what I mean.. so so so much of the screen wasted on nothing.
Just my opinion though, I realise you cant look at just my opinion. But at least you have my opinion.
Yes you would (edit: although I think less so than your implication, but that's just speculation), and you would then have a much better game. I think this is more important than performance ever was.
You're wrong
Also there's nothing more important than performance!
If some ideas or mockups send them my way to look at, always happy to look at alternatives. The biggest issue was UWE really wanted the backgrounds to be seen since a lot of time had gone into them, but I tend to agree that its wasted space. Just cant win every argument
Edit by Ghoul: Fixed weird quote bug
promote more custom maps, more backgrounds shown.. winwin? :P