moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
(ignoring the troll above.)
@Therius@krOoze The term you guys are looking for is "loss function." You can recast logistic regression as trying to minimize a function, and you can measure that same function to see how well it's doing. Log loss is the loss function it is optimizing.
Let y = 1 if team 1 wins, y = -1 if team 1 loses. Let s be the difference in skill between the teams. (divided by 100 to convert to the actual log odds number)
logloss(y,s) = log(1 + exp(- y * s))
If the skill system was totally random and had no information we could just pretend it outputted 0 difference in skill for every game, and measure the loss function on that as well. Basically, this has the issue you described. You can only measure that the skill system is working by how it predicts unbalanced games. If all teams were always balanced, then a function that just says "the teams are always balanced" works as well as the skill system. Measuring whether a game was balanced after FET has been applied seems like a really hard and interesting problem. I'll have to think about that.
That's it. I voted. Not because the poll is any good. To quote dodgeball, it's about as useful as a cock-flavoured lollipop. But because it's so obviously designed to lead you towards the second option by making it practically impossible to vote for the first option. Thankfully, the majority are the yaysayers now, but what a fucking epic failure of a poll...
I can't even begin to decipher what's going through OPs head in his latest post... At no point was he even close to what can be considered a rational thought.
In response we get all kinds of essays, abuse and passive aggressive attacks demanding "explanations" about "mindsets." This is a game. There is no need for nuance.
...Sounds like the point of this thread was achieved, then? Unless the real point of this thread was to get only the opinions you wanted to see...
Also, the valid complaints about your poll that you refuse to acknowledge is exactly why we didn't want polls to be exposed to the regular users, years ago.
When improperly framed they do not generate healthy feedback or discourse, but rather just produce crap slinging and accusations.
For the exact reason stated in another post (see below) for me personally the skill system feels broken right now. I don't want to complain, because I seriously don't really care if I win or lose a pub match and rather have a challange, but from time to time it becomes annoying to get grouped with a bunch of new and unexperienced players that (as hard as it sounds) make games very hard to win.
I didn't really look into the skill system in detail, but I have one specific question.
Imagine the following situation. There is a 20 slot server filled with the following player skills:
1 x 3000
3 x 2000
17 x 1000
scenario 1
1 x 3000 + 9 x 1000 -> mean skill 1200
vs.
3 x 2000 + 7 x 1000 -> mean skill 1300
leading to a skill difference of 100.
scenario 2
1 x 3000 + 1 x 2000 + 8 x 1000 -> mean skill 1300
vs.
2 x 2000 + 8 x 1000 -> mean skill 1200
leading to a skill difference of 100.
From my experience scenario 2 would be the more fair one. I played a lot of games where I (skill ~3000) was matched against some pretty decent players (skills >2000) leading to similar overall skills. Although one very good player can (especially as marine) achieve a lot in NS2, he can't be everywhere at once.
Now my question is: Does the skill system take into account any sort of standard deviation (to take into account outliners in the skill distribution) or just the pure mean skill values?
In addition. NS2 is a game that unfortunately is designed in a way that it heavily snowballs. Snowballing games leave an illusion that you are getting stomped, because a small favor grows bigger and bigger. So a team that gains an early lead by fair means, can dominate the game and make it look really one-sided..
DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNA!
It's why I've been focused lately on trying to find ways to lessen that snowball
Only way to truly lessen the snowball, would be to make res less impactful.
But that would mean fucking with the current balance/local maxima we have now.
To really lessen the snowball, you'd have to have the lvl 0 viable late game.
You've all played in games. Games where you join late and lose, but had the game started with the end game team composition you would have won handily.
It's why I've been focused lately on trying to find ways to lessen that snowball
Random idea (I really didn't think this through, just throwing it in...):
What if res-towers would produce less income per tower with each additional active one you have? The 2nd res-node you acquire would of course still double your income, but as you'd get #3 up, all of them would run at 90%, and with #4, 80%, etc.?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@Luchs Sounds like a hidden mechanic, since I can't think of a good way to communicate that to the player?
@amoral that's not necessarily the only way: you could subtley change 1 or more mechanics & roles to allow for more comebacks typically only capable with bile bomb.
No matter what though, any diminishing of a slippery slope would more than likely also diminish the sense of impact.
So you might as well add something enjoyable, and imo the most interesting & fun games are when there is hard fought back and forth between teams, juggling defense with offense and testing team coordination. Aka comebacks.
@Luchs Sounds like a hidden mechanic, since I can't think of a good way to communicate that to the player?
@amoral that's not necessarily the only way: you could subtley change 1 or more mechanics & roles to allow for more comebacks typically only capable with bile bomb.
No matter what though, any diminishing of a slippery slope would more than likely also diminish the sense of impact.
So you might as well add something enjoyable, and imo the most interesting & fun games are when there is hard fought back and forth between teams, juggling defense with offense and testing team coordination. Aka comebacks.
How about a subtle res cost decrease mechanic late in game say shotgun pres lowers to a % based on amount of tech tree researched by the opposing team.
The backstory could be in a desperate bid to win the war, production costs of weaponry and utilities were lessened and vice versa random half though out ideas ftw
@IronHorse the dimishing returns on RTs could be communicated via the description in the commander view, and by a "Res/Sec" number near the "number of RTs". This way players don't need any calculations to figure out how much their income is at any given time.
Or, keep the numbers all at 1 res/tower and increase the delivery time of resources by 1 sec/2 towers (or something). This way the more towers a team builds, the slower their income is, even though its higher. In the long run, it may delay upgrades enough to allow for a comeback by the team who gets their res faster.
Tweaking resource numbers is probably the best way to reduce snowballing. As far as it being a hidden mechanic...the current res system is a hidden mechanic. The 1 Tres & .1 Pres /8 sec is not listed anywhere in game. Its just not considered "hidden" right now because thats how its always been. I don't think people will get confused by tweaking resource generation as long as its consistent.
There is another school of thought I don't see even considered wrt anti-snowballing here.
Instead of trying to prolong games, give means to end them earlier.
As I've stated before, the frustration often lies in that; you make a mistake, but because the consequence, of losing, is delayed - players don't always recognize the mistake immediately (unlike in a game like counter-strike where the consequence often is instantaneous). By adding mechanics to prolong the game, I feel like you are pouring petroleum on the bonfire.
In;b4: "But comebacks are awesome."
Yes, Comebacks are awesome. But making the games shorter, does not mean that you can't simultaneously introduce comeback mechanics.
So what I'd suggest, is to add new game ending weapons/abilities, or use existing ones but make them easier to research. And balance them in such a way that a team that is dominating can research them and end the game - but make it a risky investment, that can cost you the game if responded to correctly. OR a team that is playing from behind can research this tech and make a hail marry leeroy jenkins yolo all-in.
The tricky part is balancing it correctly in such a way that it doesn't consume the entire meta game; see 2-hive-onos-egg-drop-strat.
@SantaClaws I agree that games that are clearly over should be easier to end (no one likes being ground into the dirt), and easy to research super weapons may be a solution.
I don't think the main purpose of a diminishing return res system should be to prolong the game, but allow a team to make more than 1 or 2 mistakes.
Yes, comebacks are awsome, but back and forth games are much better for everyone.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Mistakes should balance mistakes, not band-aid res adjustments. If one team makes 2 bad mistakes and the other makes none, what's so wrong with the game ending and a new one starting?
What's even the target game time? It's fun for 15-20 minutes and then you're in the late game, for which nothing is designed for to end the game at that point except bile rushes. So what's the point of going stagnating a game just to take advantage of the part of the game least designed to be played?
@Luchs Sounds like a hidden mechanic, since I can't think of a good way to communicate that to the player?
@amoral that's not necessarily the only way: you could subtley change 1 or more mechanics & roles to allow for more comebacks typically only capable with bile bomb.
No matter what though, any diminishing of a slippery slope would more than likely also diminish the sense of impact.
So you might as well add something enjoyable, and imo the most interesting & fun games are when there is hard fought back and forth between teams, juggling defense with offense and testing team coordination. Aka comebacks.
Hrmm... How about this. Right now the game is I believe destined for the late game if aliens hold 3 res and marines average 4 to 5. So just jump it so that there's a differential base res income for the two teams, and drop the value that each node gives you.
Something like, aliens get 2 res a tick and marines get 3. And each node gives .5. A lines only need to hold 2 to reach parity and marines 3. If all they got is their base res, they're losing etc etc. And if they hold a ton, they're winning but by less.
You could rejigger the starting res on the alien side too, to fine tune the timings.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2015
I'll add more, but just two things I want to point out right now after reading :
First - Just because something is not communicated doesn't mean it is a hidden mechanic IF it is innately intuitive. For example players very easily understand that more resource towers equals more res, without needing it to be spelled out or numerically tracked. Varying at all from what is intuitive is when you must communicate, else you suffer from hidden mechanics.
Secondly - why do people assume comeback mechanics cannot allow a round to end? Why do they assume comeback mechanics infer dragging something on that should have ended?? *Proper* comeback mechanics are not those that have minimal impact that end up delaying the inevitable - this is a grave misunderstanding that is commonly made and is exactly how we've ended up here - the quintessential example is again, bile bomb, which has a very real potential to end a round.
Lastly, simply allowing game ending tech that is not a comeback mechanic is exactly how you increase the snowball effect! I. E. You can't get the 2nd hive down so you know the inevitable next step is the 3rd hive game ending tech that you'll never be able to overcome.
I'll add more, but just two things I want to point out right now after reading :
First - Just because something is not communicated doesn't mean it is a hidden mechanic IF it is innately intuitive. For example players very easily understand that more resource towers equals more res, without needing it to be spelled out or numerically tracked. Varying at all from what is intuitive is when you must communicate, else you suffer from hidden mechanics.
Secondly - why do people assume comeback mechanics cannot allow a round to end? Why do they assume comeback mechanics infer dragging something on that should have ended?? *Proper* comeback mechanics are not those that have minimal impact that end up delaying the inevitable - this is a grave misunderstanding that is commonly made and is exactly how we've ended up here - the quintessential example is again, bile bomb, which has a very real potential to end a round.
Lastly, simply allowing game ending tech that is not a comeback mechanic is exactly how you increase the snowball effect! I. E. You can't get the 2nd hive down so you know the inevitable next step is the 3rd hive game ending tech that you'll never be able to overcome.
3 hives should be 99% chance of game over with alien win. You need comeback mechanics whose potency decreases when facing a larger snowball. Bile bomb's over-effectiveness is contrary to that. A random bile rush can end a game where marines have 9 RTs and all techpoints.
That's not a comeback mechanic, that's a bullshit ability. (Personally I believe gorge tunnels not requiring infestation is the culprit, but that's not the point)
And the only reason bullshit like that is possible, is because buildings are directly linked to power nodes.
Owning all the RT on the map, any awakened commander build a second base as a backup. It has been seen on comp also. Bile bomb and tunnel are the only way for Alien to reverse the pressure (or to create a point of interest). Up to the marines to sentry their bases with all means necessary. Otherwise we wouldn't need to play it in 3D. A top view would suffice like an 80's arcade game. Or like Pacman. The need to flank the opponent (or get beyond the front line) is a critical element in any strategic game. Whatever the shape it takes.
3 hives should be 99% chance of game over with alien win. You need comeback mechanics whose potency decreases when facing a larger snowball. Bile bomb's over-effectiveness is contrary to that. A random bile rush can end a game where marines have 9 RTs and all techpoints.
That's not a comeback mechanic, that's a bullshit ability.
What?
Why would anyone be against a varied game that goes back and forth and is worth fighting to the very end??
Bilebomb is pretty balanced and I doubt anyone would suggest otherwise, so you calling it random makes it sound like you enjoy a round where you can stomp early on and do the same thing again next round?
Who enjoys stomping a team? I didn't think anyone did. It's boring, at best. If a losing team skulk rushed our base and we the winning team lost, i'd still congratulate that team and not call it "random" or "bullshit"...?
Think for a moment about how no one cares about Tier 3 abilities like Stab or webs or Exos, or how no one even noticed contamination didn't have a hitbox / was invincible for 5 patches - all "Because the game is already over"..... That's 1/3 of the game that we all miss out on purely because there's no point is even trying, the snowball is too great.
What is wrong with losing to mechanics like BB when there are so many ways to counter it? What is wrong with allowing for ways to prevent predictable outcomes?
Is it because you are afraid of the "perpetual comeback" scenario? If so, that's like fearing that communism would take hold, despite the richest 1 percent in the United States now owning more wealth than the bottom 90 percent. That fear mongering fueled scenario is sooo far on the other end of the spectrum it's simply laughable.
If so, that's like fearing that communism would take hold, despite the richest 1 percent in the United States now owning more wealth than the bottom 90 percent. That fear mongering fueled scenario is sooo far on the other end of the spectrum it's simply laughable.
That took a "left" turn
Anyway, I don't think the skill system is perfect (hey, nothing is) but there is no middle option in the poll, so... its ok? 60% of the time maybe?
3 hives should be 99% chance of game over with alien win. You need comeback mechanics whose potency decreases when facing a larger snowball. Bile bomb's over-effectiveness is contrary to that. A random bile rush can end a game where marines have 9 RTs and all techpoints.
That's not a comeback mechanic, that's a bullshit ability.
What?
Why would anyone be against a varied game that goes back and forth and is worth fighting to the very end??
Bilebomb is pretty balanced and I doubt anyone would suggest otherwise, so you calling it random makes it sound like you enjoy a round where you can stomp early on and do the same thing again next round?
Who enjoys stomping a team? I didn't think anyone did. It's boring, at best. If a losing team skulk rushed our base and we the winning team lost, i'd still congratulate that team and not call it "random" or "bullshit"...?
Think for a moment about how no one cares about Tier 3 abilities like Stab or webs or Exos, or how no one even noticed contamination didn't have a hitbox / was invincible for 5 patches - all "Because the game is already over"..... That's 1/3 of the game that we all miss out on purely because there's no point is even trying, the snowball is too great.
What is wrong with losing to mechanics like BB when there are so many ways to counter it? What is wrong with allowing for ways to prevent predictable outcomes?
Is it because you are afraid of the "perpetual comeback" scenario? If so, that's like fearing that communism would take hold, despite the richest 1 percent in the United States now owning more wealth than the bottom 90 percent. That fear mongering fueled scenario is sooo far on the other end of the spectrum it's simply laughable.
You're on the right track. I don't enjoy stomping early, but I think it's a terrible thing to artificially force a stomped team to continue getting stomped for longer. In this case it's not bile bomb that isn't balanced, it's tunnels. I would have no problem with a losing team managing to get there entire team to the marine start for a rush, but tunnel rushes are insane.
End-game shouldn't be a full 1/3 of the game, it should be much much quicker than it is now. Contaminate is just another band-aid because everyone is so afraid of buffing player classes. So now we're stuck with pve that still doesn't effectively reward an alien team for getting 3 hives
And no, it's all because I want the game to be more dynamic, but naturally, so that each round can feel different and competitive
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I'll give you the tunnels argument.
The mobile team never needed that buff.. and what's worse is that it happened not for balance or gameplay sake, but so "the gorge had more fun things to do" early on besides hydras, clogs, expansion, and being battle gorge?...
Contaminate is a bandaid that was introduced because competitive players (this is the only time you'll ever see me point a finger at the comp crowd for changed gameplay) wanted the game to arbitrarily feel more asymmetric by having only the marine team operate on a linear tech path - which inevitably causes a whole host of downsides that only "game ending tech" could band aid, such as turtling and those "soft comeback" mechanics I mentioned that aren't really comeback mechanics at all but rather just delay the inevitable.
It's pretty cyclical..
As far as dynamic rounds go, wouldn't more *proper* comeback mechanics lead to more varied gameplay as well as rounds that end sooner?
I'll give you the tunnels argument.
The mobile team never needed that buff.. and what's worse is that it happened not for balance or gameplay sake, but so "the gorge had more fun things to do" early on besides hydras, clogs, expansion, and being battle gorge?...
Contaminate is a bandaid that was introduced because competitive players (this is the only time you'll ever see me point a finger at the comp crowd for changed gameplay) wanted the game to arbitrarily feel more asymmetric by having only the marine team operate on a linear tech path - which inevitably causes a whole host of downsides that only "game ending tech" could band aid, such as turtling and those "soft comeback" mechanics I mentioned that aren't really comeback mechanics at all but rather just delay the inevitable.
It's pretty cyclical..
As far as dynamic rounds go, wouldn't more *proper* comeback mechanics lead to more varied gameplay as well as rounds that end sooner?
I'm going to reference NS1 here, but I'm not trying to say that we need to take what NS1 did, just the idea of what it did right as far as comebacks go.
There shouldn't be mechanics that are explicitly designed to force comebacks. In NS1 every tech upgrade outside of the Arms Lab and the chamber upgrades was a direct upgrade over the previous one (although these were all very powerful as well, just differentiating passive/active upgrading). To explain simply Lerks were huge upgrades over skulks, Fades were huge upgrades over Lerks, Onos were (arguably) huge upgrades over Fades.
So from here, you don't have comeback mechanics, it's just that lerk time was a huge advantage for aliens after a strong early marine game, then the marine tech could counter that timing wise before fades. Then there's fades and aliens are powerful again. Then there's HMGs and marines are powerful again.
So the comback mechanic is USING these timings as a team. All these timings and the strength they gave to a team were proportional to how well their res game was played, AND how well they played on the killing field (res for kill).
Now in NS2 we have class based play. I'll tell you right now that I hate this decision, but fine I get it, it does increase accessiblity for newer and less skilled players and I'm not looking to change this, I'm looking keep the features we have and use them in a way that is more exciting like NS1 was. I disagree because we don't have as important a problem getting new players as we do keeping dedicated players.
PS: The gorge having more fun things to do is very doable if infestation is decoupled from structures as a requirement. Gorges should be able to build off of infestation, and the buildings just wont auto-build without infestation. And tunnels don't need to be thrown out, they need to require infestation. Tunnels literally make no sense lol, they aren't tunnels they're magic portals. The tunnel should at least require you to travel the actual linear distance between the ends
I'll give you the tunnels argument.
The mobile team never needed that buff.. and what's worse is that it happened not for balance or gameplay sake, but so "the gorge had more fun things to do" early on besides hydras, clogs, expansion, and being battle gorge?...
Contaminate is a bandaid that was introduced because competitive players (this is the only time you'll ever see me point a finger at the comp crowd for changed gameplay) wanted the game to arbitrarily feel more asymmetric by having only the marine team operate on a linear tech path - which inevitably causes a whole host of downsides that only "game ending tech" could band aid, such as turtling and those "soft comeback" mechanics I mentioned that aren't really comeback mechanics at all but rather just delay the inevitable.
It's pretty cyclical..
As far as dynamic rounds go, wouldn't more *proper* comeback mechanics lead to more varied gameplay as well as rounds that end sooner?
I'm going to reference NS1 here, but I'm not trying to say that we need to take what NS1 did, just the idea of what it did right as far as comebacks go.
There shouldn't be mechanics that are explicitly designed to force comebacks. In NS1 every tech upgrade outside of the Arms Lab and the chamber upgrades was a direct upgrade over the previous one (although these were all very powerful as well, just differentiating passive/active upgrading). To explain simply Lerks were huge upgrades over skulks, Fades were huge upgrades over Lerks, Onos were (arguably) huge upgrades over Fades.
So from here, you don't have comeback mechanics, it's just that lerk time was a huge advantage for aliens after a strong early marine game, then the marine tech could counter that timing wise before fades. Then there's fades and aliens are powerful again. Then there's HMGs and marines are powerful again.
So the comback mechanic is USING these timings as a team. All these timings and the strength they gave to a team were proportional to how well their res game was played, AND how well they played on the killing field (res for kill).
Now in NS2 we have class based play. I'll tell you right now that I hate this decision, but fine I get it, it does increase accessiblity for newer and less skilled players and I'm not looking to change this, I'm looking keep the features we have and use them in a way that is more exciting like NS1 was. I disagree because we don't have as important a problem getting new players as we do keeping dedicated players.
PS: The gorge having more fun things to do is very doable if infestation is decoupled from structures as a requirement. Gorges should be able to build off of infestation, and the buildings just wont auto-build without infestation. And tunnels don't need to be thrown out, they need to require infestation. Tunnels literally make no sense lol, they aren't tunnels they're magic portals. The tunnel should at least require you to travel the actual linear distance between the ends
I must say this is a great post from you. I enjoy your thought on making ns2 more exciting. I don't know if I agree but it is good food for thought.
Also glad to see some real thoughts on decoupling infestation, as opposed to a random plug.
I'm going to reference NS1 here, but I'm not trying to say that we need to take what NS1 did, just the idea of what it did right as far as comebacks go.
There shouldn't be mechanics that are explicitly designed to force comebacks. In NS1 every tech upgrade outside of the Arms Lab and the chamber upgrades was a direct upgrade over the previous one (although these were all very powerful as well, just differentiating passive/active upgrading). To explain simply Lerks were huge upgrades over skulks, Fades were huge upgrades over Lerks, Onos were (arguably) huge upgrades over Fades.
So from here, you don't have comeback mechanics, it's just that lerk time was a huge advantage for aliens after a strong early marine game, then the marine tech could counter that timing wise before fades. Then there's fades and aliens are powerful again. Then there's HMGs and marines are powerful again.
So the comback mechanic is USING these timings as a team. All these timings and the strength they gave to a team were proportional to how well their res game was played, AND how well they played on the killing field (res for kill).
Now in NS2 we have class based play. I'll tell you right now that I hate this decision, but fine I get it, it does increase accessiblity for newer and less skilled players and I'm not looking to change this, I'm looking keep the features we have and use them in a way that is more exciting like NS1 was. I disagree because we don't have as important a problem getting new players as we do keeping dedicated players.
PS: The gorge having more fun things to do is very doable if infestation is decoupled from structures as a requirement. Gorges should be able to build off of infestation, and the buildings just wont auto-build without infestation. And tunnels don't need to be thrown out, they need to require infestation. Tunnels literally make no sense lol, they aren't tunnels they're magic portals. The tunnel should at least require you to travel the actual linear distance between the ends
Since you mention NS1:
Have you ever been "hive lock-ed" in NS1.04 ? Despite the lag problems the game summary was : Never leave an alien outside the hive, or marine team will loose.
Then came NS1.2 : The burden was on the gorge(s) to provide the RTs (as economy was changed). So the game summary was "hunt the gorge" or we're doomed. Turret farming was also part of it.
Then came NS1.3 : more balanced games but still relying on hive lock at some point. We barely seen a Lerk rush or two... Other than that it was mostly "the standard path".
Class based play is the natural evolution with an economy system. Other than that; We would have to come back to the gorge/commander responsible for everything in the team. Which has proven to be an issue.
It's not more accessible, if RTs fall you don't get to access anything. Same goes for NS1 & 2. A bad Lerk is a bad Lerk. It needs training like any other. The timing are tailored the same way in NS2. You can't get lerk before X and can't get shotguns before Y, etc.
"Gorges should be able to build off of infestation": They already do with Hydras. The Offense Chamber legacy. You fail to realize that the marine economy and ways are "on the fly" and the alien ways are based on "growing things". The cyst is part of it. If infestation grows; it's not for nothing (beside fancy visual effects). If the marines don't clean it, the alien can grow more things like RTs for example. It means the aliens have a foothold on this location. Basic strategy.
Marine can build instantly, alien grow things. Growing takes time.
I completely disagree with removing tunnel or building it only on infestation.
1 it's the gorge who builds it. It's personal res (same goes for hydras). The commander builds on infestation the gorge has some freedom about that.
2 It's the one thing they fear in mid and late-game if they are dominant. The only thing that makes them look back. In any case removing the tunnel ability for surprise event is DOOMSDAY for alien. And rest assured the alien would F4 if they cannot surrender. In fact why bother voting ? You would be more frustrated than today as there is also a "surrender issue".
If you want to avoid that. Whatever the skill level. It would require to add so much vents in the maps that is would be a second layer in maps. And I'm not talking about a vent to get outside the hive. "Connecting the TPs"!. Yes connecting it.
3 In this case what about building the PGs only on clean grounds? ... Oh yes NS2 had that issue too. So much for the Ninja-PG spotted as soon as the cyst goes red. Of course Khammander where filling the map with cyst... Now you can build a PG inside a hive. isn't it enough ?
If you play with potent marines you undeniably know that the skulk is a brick without upgrades. Especially since strafe-gay-jump. You know there is always a push squad that will try to egg-lock (the legacy of Hive-Lock). who said Atrium ? You know the cyst is the one thing that won't get out of the hive like that. In this case whatever you have 2K skilled players; if bad stuff happens, the game is gone because cyst can't get out. What's the point ?
We know that ranged weapons are superior. The only way for alien is "the other" way. Even having lag on his side. That's why the maps are designed to provide thin corridors, small LOS as much as possible and many other things to reduce the ability for marine to shoot from far away.
I can only say your arguments are only marine sided. You're a Marine at heart, fine. But what you propose is only cripple alien so badly that it becomes a sitting duck contest, at best when stomping. And with balanced skilled players; if Lerks die too early, -> F4. This game isn't about accuracy and frag fest. It's being smarter than the opponent.
If you want to remove some stupid things, remove the egg lock, let's have emergency lights in starting hive, let's get 2 IPs (above 6 teammates), and protect the base PN with an armor for 3 minutes tops. Then we'll talk.
I'm going to reference NS1 here, but I'm not trying to say that we need to take what NS1 did, just the idea of what it did right as far as comebacks go.
There shouldn't be mechanics that are explicitly designed to force comebacks. In NS1 every tech upgrade outside of the Arms Lab and the chamber upgrades was a direct upgrade over the previous one (although these were all very powerful as well, just differentiating passive/active upgrading). To explain simply Lerks were huge upgrades over skulks, Fades were huge upgrades over Lerks, Onos were (arguably) huge upgrades over Fades.
So from here, you don't have comeback mechanics, it's just that lerk time was a huge advantage for aliens after a strong early marine game, then the marine tech could counter that timing wise before fades. Then there's fades and aliens are powerful again. Then there's HMGs and marines are powerful again.
So the comback mechanic is USING these timings as a team. All these timings and the strength they gave to a team were proportional to how well their res game was played, AND how well they played on the killing field (res for kill).
Now in NS2 we have class based play. I'll tell you right now that I hate this decision, but fine I get it, it does increase accessiblity for newer and less skilled players and I'm not looking to change this, I'm looking keep the features we have and use them in a way that is more exciting like NS1 was. I disagree because we don't have as important a problem getting new players as we do keeping dedicated players.
PS: The gorge having more fun things to do is very doable if infestation is decoupled from structures as a requirement. Gorges should be able to build off of infestation, and the buildings just wont auto-build without infestation. And tunnels don't need to be thrown out, they need to require infestation. Tunnels literally make no sense lol, they aren't tunnels they're magic portals. The tunnel should at least require you to travel the actual linear distance between the ends
Since you mention NS1:
Have you ever been "hive lock-ed" in NS1.04 ? Despite the lag problems the game summary was : Never leave an alien outside the hive, or marine team will loose.
Then came NS1.2 : The burden was on the gorge(s) to provide the RTs (as economy was changed). So the game summary was "hunt the gorge" or we're doomed. Turret farming was also part of it.
Then came NS1.3 : more balanced games but still relying on hive lock at some point. We barely seen a Lerk rush or two... Other than that it was mostly "the standard path".
Class based play is the natural evolution with an economy system. Other than that; We would have to come back to the gorge/commander responsible for everything in the team. Which has proven to be an issue.
It's not more accessible, if RTs fall you don't get to access anything. Same goes for NS1 & 2. A bad Lerk is a bad Lerk. It needs training like any other. The timing are tailored the same way in NS2. You can't get lerk before X and can't get shotguns before Y, etc.
"Gorges should be able to build off of infestation": They already do with Hydras. The Offense Chamber legacy. You fail to realize that the marine economy and ways are "on the fly" and the alien ways are based on "growing things". The cyst is part of it. If infestation grows; it's not for nothing (beside fancy visual effects). If the marines don't clean it, the alien can grow more things like RTs for example. It means the aliens have a foothold on this location. Basic strategy.
Marine can build instantly, alien grow things. Growing takes time.
I completely disagree with removing tunnel or building it only on infestation.
1 it's the gorge who builds it. It's personal res (same goes for hydras). The commander builds on infestation the gorge has some freedom about that.
2 It's the one thing they fear in mid and late-game if they are dominant. The only thing that makes them look back. In any case removing the tunnel ability for surprise event is DOOMSDAY for alien. And rest assured the alien would F4 if they cannot surrender. In fact why bother voting ? You would be more frustrated than today as there is also a "surrender issue".
If you want to avoid that. Whatever the skill level. It would require to add so much vents in the maps that is would be a second layer in maps. And I'm not talking about a vent to get outside the hive. "Connecting the TPs"!. Yes connecting it.
3 In this case what about building the PGs only on clean grounds? ... Oh yes NS2 had that issue too. So much for the Ninja-PG spotted as soon as the cyst goes red. Of course Khammander where filling the map with cyst... Now you can build a PG inside a hive. isn't it enough ?
If you play with potent marines you undeniably know that the skulk is a brick without upgrades. Especially since strafe-gay-jump. You know there is always a push squad that will try to egg-lock (the legacy of Hive-Lock). who said Atrium ? You know the cyst is the one thing that won't get out of the hive like that. In this case whatever you have 2K skilled players; if bad stuff happens, the game is gone because cyst can't get out. What's the point ?
We know that ranged weapons are superior. The only way for alien is "the other" way. Even having lag on his side. That's why the maps are designed to provide thin corridors, small LOS as much as possible and many other things to reduce the ability for marine to shoot from far away.
I can only say your arguments are only marine sided. You're a Marine at heart, fine. But what you propose is only cripple alien so badly that it becomes a sitting duck contest, at best when stomping. And with balanced skilled players; if Lerks die too early, -> F4. This game isn't about accuracy and frag fest. It's being smarter than the opponent.
If you want to remove some stupid things, remove the egg lock, let's have emergency lights in starting hive, let's get 2 IPs (above 6 teammates), and protect the base PN with an armor for 3 minutes tops. Then we'll talk.
That always puzzled me to be honest, IMHO starting hives should have power already destroyed due to the infestation already being present, its like the aliens decided "Ohh this is a nice place for mother to sit above, lets leave the power on, the lights really show off the decor! nevermind the random marine that strolls in and could snipe our upgrades in future!".
I'm going to reference NS1 here, but I'm not trying to say that we need to take what NS1 did, just the idea of what it did right as far as comebacks go.
There shouldn't be mechanics that are explicitly designed to force comebacks. In NS1 every tech upgrade outside of the Arms Lab and the chamber upgrades was a direct upgrade over the previous one (although these were all very powerful as well, just differentiating passive/active upgrading). To explain simply Lerks were huge upgrades over skulks, Fades were huge upgrades over Lerks, Onos were (arguably) huge upgrades over Fades.
So from here, you don't have comeback mechanics, it's just that lerk time was a huge advantage for aliens after a strong early marine game, then the marine tech could counter that timing wise before fades. Then there's fades and aliens are powerful again. Then there's HMGs and marines are powerful again.
So the comback mechanic is USING these timings as a team. All these timings and the strength they gave to a team were proportional to how well their res game was played, AND how well they played on the killing field (res for kill).
Now in NS2 we have class based play. I'll tell you right now that I hate this decision, but fine I get it, it does increase accessiblity for newer and less skilled players and I'm not looking to change this, I'm looking keep the features we have and use them in a way that is more exciting like NS1 was. I disagree because we don't have as important a problem getting new players as we do keeping dedicated players.
PS: The gorge having more fun things to do is very doable if infestation is decoupled from structures as a requirement. Gorges should be able to build off of infestation, and the buildings just wont auto-build without infestation. And tunnels don't need to be thrown out, they need to require infestation. Tunnels literally make no sense lol, they aren't tunnels they're magic portals. The tunnel should at least require you to travel the actual linear distance between the ends
Since you mention NS1:
Have you ever been "hive lock-ed" in NS1.04 ? Despite the lag problems the game summary was : Never leave an alien outside the hive, or marine team will loose.
Then came NS1.2 : The burden was on the gorge(s) to provide the RTs (as economy was changed). So the game summary was "hunt the gorge" or we're doomed. Turret farming was also part of it.
Then came NS1.3 : more balanced games but still relying on hive lock at some point. We barely seen a Lerk rush or two... Other than that it was mostly "the standard path".
Class based play is the natural evolution with an economy system. Other than that; We would have to come back to the gorge/commander responsible for everything in the team. Which has proven to be an issue.
It's not more accessible, if RTs fall you don't get to access anything. Same goes for NS1 & 2. A bad Lerk is a bad Lerk. It needs training like any other. The timing are tailored the same way in NS2. You can't get lerk before X and can't get shotguns before Y, etc.
"Gorges should be able to build off of infestation": They already do with Hydras. The Offense Chamber legacy. You fail to realize that the marine economy and ways are "on the fly" and the alien ways are based on "growing things". The cyst is part of it. If infestation grows; it's not for nothing (beside fancy visual effects). If the marines don't clean it, the alien can grow more things like RTs for example. It means the aliens have a foothold on this location. Basic strategy.
Marine can build instantly, alien grow things. Growing takes time.
I completely disagree with removing tunnel or building it only on infestation.
1 it's the gorge who builds it. It's personal res (same goes for hydras). The commander builds on infestation the gorge has some freedom about that.
2 It's the one thing they fear in mid and late-game if they are dominant. The only thing that makes them look back. In any case removing the tunnel ability for surprise event is DOOMSDAY for alien. And rest assured the alien would F4 if they cannot surrender. In fact why bother voting ? You would be more frustrated than today as there is also a "surrender issue".
If you want to avoid that. Whatever the skill level. It would require to add so much vents in the maps that is would be a second layer in maps. And I'm not talking about a vent to get outside the hive. "Connecting the TPs"!. Yes connecting it.
3 In this case what about building the PGs only on clean grounds? ... Oh yes NS2 had that issue too. So much for the Ninja-PG spotted as soon as the cyst goes red. Of course Khammander where filling the map with cyst... Now you can build a PG inside a hive. isn't it enough ?
If you play with potent marines you undeniably know that the skulk is a brick without upgrades. Especially since strafe-gay-jump. You know there is always a push squad that will try to egg-lock (the legacy of Hive-Lock). who said Atrium ? You know the cyst is the one thing that won't get out of the hive like that. In this case whatever you have 2K skilled players; if bad stuff happens, the game is gone because cyst can't get out. What's the point ?
We know that ranged weapons are superior. The only way for alien is "the other" way. Even having lag on his side. That's why the maps are designed to provide thin corridors, small LOS as much as possible and many other things to reduce the ability for marine to shoot from far away.
I can only say your arguments are only marine sided. You're a Marine at heart, fine. But what you propose is only cripple alien so badly that it becomes a sitting duck contest, at best when stomping. And with balanced skilled players; if Lerks die too early, -> F4. This game isn't about accuracy and frag fest. It's being smarter than the opponent.
If you want to remove some stupid things, remove the egg lock, let's have emergency lights in starting hive, let's get 2 IPs (above 6 teammates), and protect the base PN with an armor for 3 minutes tops. Then we'll talk.
I'm not 100 % sure, but I think you disagreed with yourself by the end of that, not with me.
I'm an NSPlayer by heart, not a marine. And most of my ideas are to give aliens more power, without having stupid band-aid powers. Yes I want to get rid of tunnels off infestation, but bolster them in other ways that make more sense with game-flow. Tunnels are random and I would think if you care about the logic of stupid lights in hives you would think that too.
edcit: I'm 1900 skill, level 15, and I abhor having to kill cysts to shove aliens into their base, but I do it because of winning. I only play on the Captains server and Tactical Freedom anymore, everywhere else I feel like a piece of shit. It's not a strategy I should be able to employ.
You are more reminiscing than you are suggesting something realistic for NS2
I just don't see Pres being removed with every lifeform being rebalanced to accommodate at this stage in NS2's life.
So, if we're stuck with that quasi class based system that you pointed out, we need to have something that mimics those impactful timings... which, would be the comeback mechanics I keep suggesting hehe
edit: This is beginning to derail the thread, we should take it elsewhere
Comments
@Therius @krOoze The term you guys are looking for is "loss function." You can recast logistic regression as trying to minimize a function, and you can measure that same function to see how well it's doing. Log loss is the loss function it is optimizing.
Let y = 1 if team 1 wins, y = -1 if team 1 loses. Let s be the difference in skill between the teams. (divided by 100 to convert to the actual log odds number)
logloss(y,s) = log(1 + exp(- y * s))
If the skill system was totally random and had no information we could just pretend it outputted 0 difference in skill for every game, and measure the loss function on that as well. Basically, this has the issue you described. You can only measure that the skill system is working by how it predicts unbalanced games. If all teams were always balanced, then a function that just says "the teams are always balanced" works as well as the skill system. Measuring whether a game was balanced after FET has been applied seems like a really hard and interesting problem. I'll have to think about that.
I can't even begin to decipher what's going through OPs head in his latest post... At no point was he even close to what can be considered a rational thought.
...Sounds like the point of this thread was achieved, then? Unless the real point of this thread was to get only the opinions you wanted to see...
Also, the valid complaints about your poll that you refuse to acknowledge is exactly why we didn't want polls to be exposed to the regular users, years ago.
When improperly framed they do not generate healthy feedback or discourse, but rather just produce crap slinging and accusations.
Only way to truly lessen the snowball, would be to make res less impactful.
But that would mean fucking with the current balance/local maxima we have now.
To really lessen the snowball, you'd have to have the lvl 0 viable late game.
You've all played in games. Games where you join late and lose, but had the game started with the end game team composition you would have won handily.
What if res-towers would produce less income per tower with each additional active one you have? The 2nd res-node you acquire would of course still double your income, but as you'd get #3 up, all of them would run at 90%, and with #4, 80%, etc.?
@amoral that's not necessarily the only way: you could subtley change 1 or more mechanics & roles to allow for more comebacks typically only capable with bile bomb.
No matter what though, any diminishing of a slippery slope would more than likely also diminish the sense of impact.
So you might as well add something enjoyable, and imo the most interesting & fun games are when there is hard fought back and forth between teams, juggling defense with offense and testing team coordination. Aka comebacks.
How about a subtle res cost decrease mechanic late in game say shotgun pres lowers to a % based on amount of tech tree researched by the opposing team.
The backstory could be in a desperate bid to win the war, production costs of weaponry and utilities were lessened and vice versa
Or, keep the numbers all at 1 res/tower and increase the delivery time of resources by 1 sec/2 towers (or something). This way the more towers a team builds, the slower their income is, even though its higher. In the long run, it may delay upgrades enough to allow for a comeback by the team who gets their res faster.
Tweaking resource numbers is probably the best way to reduce snowballing. As far as it being a hidden mechanic...the current res system is a hidden mechanic. The 1 Tres & .1 Pres /8 sec is not listed anywhere in game. Its just not considered "hidden" right now because thats how its always been. I don't think people will get confused by tweaking resource generation as long as its consistent.
There is another school of thought I don't see even considered wrt anti-snowballing here.
Instead of trying to prolong games, give means to end them earlier.
As I've stated before, the frustration often lies in that; you make a mistake, but because the consequence, of losing, is delayed - players don't always recognize the mistake immediately (unlike in a game like counter-strike where the consequence often is instantaneous). By adding mechanics to prolong the game, I feel like you are pouring petroleum on the bonfire.
In;b4: "But comebacks are awesome."
Yes, Comebacks are awesome. But making the games shorter, does not mean that you can't simultaneously introduce comeback mechanics.
So what I'd suggest, is to add new game ending weapons/abilities, or use existing ones but make them easier to research. And balance them in such a way that a team that is dominating can research them and end the game - but make it a risky investment, that can cost you the game if responded to correctly. OR a team that is playing from behind can research this tech and make a hail marry leeroy jenkins yolo all-in.
The tricky part is balancing it correctly in such a way that it doesn't consume the entire meta game; see 2-hive-onos-egg-drop-strat.
I don't think the main purpose of a diminishing return res system should be to prolong the game, but allow a team to make more than 1 or 2 mistakes.
Yes, comebacks are awsome, but back and forth games are much better for everyone.
What's even the target game time? It's fun for 15-20 minutes and then you're in the late game, for which nothing is designed for to end the game at that point except bile rushes. So what's the point of going stagnating a game just to take advantage of the part of the game least designed to be played?
I'll have to re-examine my position in that case.
Hrmm... How about this. Right now the game is I believe destined for the late game if aliens hold 3 res and marines average 4 to 5. So just jump it so that there's a differential base res income for the two teams, and drop the value that each node gives you.
Something like, aliens get 2 res a tick and marines get 3. And each node gives .5. A lines only need to hold 2 to reach parity and marines 3. If all they got is their base res, they're losing etc etc. And if they hold a ton, they're winning but by less.
You could rejigger the starting res on the alien side too, to fine tune the timings.
First - Just because something is not communicated doesn't mean it is a hidden mechanic IF it is innately intuitive. For example players very easily understand that more resource towers equals more res, without needing it to be spelled out or numerically tracked. Varying at all from what is intuitive is when you must communicate, else you suffer from hidden mechanics.
Secondly - why do people assume comeback mechanics cannot allow a round to end? Why do they assume comeback mechanics infer dragging something on that should have ended?? *Proper* comeback mechanics are not those that have minimal impact that end up delaying the inevitable - this is a grave misunderstanding that is commonly made and is exactly how we've ended up here - the quintessential example is again, bile bomb, which has a very real potential to end a round.
Lastly, simply allowing game ending tech that is not a comeback mechanic is exactly how you increase the snowball effect! I. E. You can't get the 2nd hive down so you know the inevitable next step is the 3rd hive game ending tech that you'll never be able to overcome.
3 hives should be 99% chance of game over with alien win. You need comeback mechanics whose potency decreases when facing a larger snowball. Bile bomb's over-effectiveness is contrary to that. A random bile rush can end a game where marines have 9 RTs and all techpoints.
That's not a comeback mechanic, that's a bullshit ability. (Personally I believe gorge tunnels not requiring infestation is the culprit, but that's not the point)
And the only reason bullshit like that is possible, is because buildings are directly linked to power nodes.
Owning all the RT on the map, any awakened commander build a second base as a backup. It has been seen on comp also. Bile bomb and tunnel are the only way for Alien to reverse the pressure (or to create a point of interest). Up to the marines to sentry their bases with all means necessary. Otherwise we wouldn't need to play it in 3D. A top view would suffice like an 80's arcade game. Or like Pacman. The need to flank the opponent (or get beyond the front line) is a critical element in any strategic game. Whatever the shape it takes.
Why would anyone be against a varied game that goes back and forth and is worth fighting to the very end??
Bilebomb is pretty balanced and I doubt anyone would suggest otherwise, so you calling it random makes it sound like you enjoy a round where you can stomp early on and do the same thing again next round?
Who enjoys stomping a team? I didn't think anyone did. It's boring, at best. If a losing team skulk rushed our base and we the winning team lost, i'd still congratulate that team and not call it "random" or "bullshit"...?
Think for a moment about how no one cares about Tier 3 abilities like Stab or webs or Exos, or how no one even noticed contamination didn't have a hitbox / was invincible for 5 patches - all "Because the game is already over".....
That's 1/3 of the game that we all miss out on purely because there's no point is even trying, the snowball is too great.
What is wrong with losing to mechanics like BB when there are so many ways to counter it? What is wrong with allowing for ways to prevent predictable outcomes?
Is it because you are afraid of the "perpetual comeback" scenario? If so, that's like fearing that communism would take hold, despite the richest 1 percent in the United States now owning more wealth than the bottom 90 percent. That fear mongering fueled scenario is sooo far on the other end of the spectrum it's simply laughable.
That took a "left" turn
Anyway, I don't think the skill system is perfect (hey, nothing is) but there is no middle option in the poll, so... its ok? 60% of the time maybe?
You're on the right track. I don't enjoy stomping early, but I think it's a terrible thing to artificially force a stomped team to continue getting stomped for longer. In this case it's not bile bomb that isn't balanced, it's tunnels. I would have no problem with a losing team managing to get there entire team to the marine start for a rush, but tunnel rushes are insane.
End-game shouldn't be a full 1/3 of the game, it should be much much quicker than it is now. Contaminate is just another band-aid because everyone is so afraid of buffing player classes. So now we're stuck with pve that still doesn't effectively reward an alien team for getting 3 hives
And no, it's all because I want the game to be more dynamic, but naturally, so that each round can feel different and competitive
The mobile team never needed that buff.. and what's worse is that it happened not for balance or gameplay sake, but so "the gorge had more fun things to do" early on besides hydras, clogs, expansion, and being battle gorge?...
Contaminate is a bandaid that was introduced because competitive players (this is the only time you'll ever see me point a finger at the comp crowd for changed gameplay) wanted the game to arbitrarily feel more asymmetric by having only the marine team operate on a linear tech path - which inevitably causes a whole host of downsides that only "game ending tech" could band aid, such as turtling and those "soft comeback" mechanics I mentioned that aren't really comeback mechanics at all but rather just delay the inevitable.
It's pretty cyclical..
As far as dynamic rounds go, wouldn't more *proper* comeback mechanics lead to more varied gameplay as well as rounds that end sooner?
I'm going to reference NS1 here, but I'm not trying to say that we need to take what NS1 did, just the idea of what it did right as far as comebacks go.
There shouldn't be mechanics that are explicitly designed to force comebacks. In NS1 every tech upgrade outside of the Arms Lab and the chamber upgrades was a direct upgrade over the previous one (although these were all very powerful as well, just differentiating passive/active upgrading). To explain simply Lerks were huge upgrades over skulks, Fades were huge upgrades over Lerks, Onos were (arguably) huge upgrades over Fades.
So from here, you don't have comeback mechanics, it's just that lerk time was a huge advantage for aliens after a strong early marine game, then the marine tech could counter that timing wise before fades. Then there's fades and aliens are powerful again. Then there's HMGs and marines are powerful again.
So the comback mechanic is USING these timings as a team. All these timings and the strength they gave to a team were proportional to how well their res game was played, AND how well they played on the killing field (res for kill).
Now in NS2 we have class based play. I'll tell you right now that I hate this decision, but fine I get it, it does increase accessiblity for newer and less skilled players and I'm not looking to change this, I'm looking keep the features we have and use them in a way that is more exciting like NS1 was. I disagree because we don't have as important a problem getting new players as we do keeping dedicated players.
PS: The gorge having more fun things to do is very doable if infestation is decoupled from structures as a requirement. Gorges should be able to build off of infestation, and the buildings just wont auto-build without infestation. And tunnels don't need to be thrown out, they need to require infestation. Tunnels literally make no sense lol, they aren't tunnels they're magic portals. The tunnel should at least require you to travel the actual linear distance between the ends
Also glad to see some real thoughts on decoupling infestation, as opposed to a random plug.
Since you mention NS1:
Have you ever been "hive lock-ed" in NS1.04 ? Despite the lag problems the game summary was : Never leave an alien outside the hive, or marine team will loose.
Then came NS1.2 : The burden was on the gorge(s) to provide the RTs (as economy was changed). So the game summary was "hunt the gorge" or we're doomed. Turret farming was also part of it.
Then came NS1.3 : more balanced games but still relying on hive lock at some point. We barely seen a Lerk rush or two... Other than that it was mostly "the standard path".
Class based play is the natural evolution with an economy system. Other than that; We would have to come back to the gorge/commander responsible for everything in the team. Which has proven to be an issue.
It's not more accessible, if RTs fall you don't get to access anything. Same goes for NS1 & 2. A bad Lerk is a bad Lerk. It needs training like any other. The timing are tailored the same way in NS2. You can't get lerk before X and can't get shotguns before Y, etc.
"Gorges should be able to build off of infestation": They already do with Hydras. The Offense Chamber legacy. You fail to realize that the marine economy and ways are "on the fly" and the alien ways are based on "growing things". The cyst is part of it. If infestation grows; it's not for nothing (beside fancy visual effects). If the marines don't clean it, the alien can grow more things like RTs for example. It means the aliens have a foothold on this location. Basic strategy.
Marine can build instantly, alien grow things. Growing takes time.
I completely disagree with removing tunnel or building it only on infestation.
1 it's the gorge who builds it. It's personal res (same goes for hydras). The commander builds on infestation the gorge has some freedom about that.
2 It's the one thing they fear in mid and late-game if they are dominant. The only thing that makes them look back. In any case removing the tunnel ability for surprise event is DOOMSDAY for alien. And rest assured the alien would F4 if they cannot surrender. In fact why bother voting ? You would be more frustrated than today as there is also a "surrender issue".
If you want to avoid that. Whatever the skill level. It would require to add so much vents in the maps that is would be a second layer in maps. And I'm not talking about a vent to get outside the hive. "Connecting the TPs"!. Yes connecting it.
3 In this case what about building the PGs only on clean grounds? ... Oh yes NS2 had that issue too. So much for the Ninja-PG spotted as soon as the cyst goes red. Of course Khammander where filling the map with cyst... Now you can build a PG inside a hive. isn't it enough ?
If you play with potent marines you undeniably know that the skulk is a brick without upgrades. Especially since strafe-gay-jump. You know there is always a push squad that will try to egg-lock (the legacy of Hive-Lock). who said Atrium ? You know the cyst is the one thing that won't get out of the hive like that. In this case whatever you have 2K skilled players; if bad stuff happens, the game is gone because cyst can't get out. What's the point ?
We know that ranged weapons are superior. The only way for alien is "the other" way. Even having lag on his side. That's why the maps are designed to provide thin corridors, small LOS as much as possible and many other things to reduce the ability for marine to shoot from far away.
I can only say your arguments are only marine sided. You're a Marine at heart, fine. But what you propose is only cripple alien so badly that it becomes a sitting duck contest, at best when stomping. And with balanced skilled players; if Lerks die too early, -> F4. This game isn't about accuracy and frag fest. It's being smarter than the opponent.
If you want to remove some stupid things, remove the egg lock, let's have emergency lights in starting hive, let's get 2 IPs (above 6 teammates), and protect the base PN with an armor for 3 minutes tops. Then we'll talk.
That always puzzled me to be honest, IMHO starting hives should have power already destroyed due to the infestation already being present, its like the aliens decided "Ohh this is a nice place for mother to sit above, lets leave the power on, the lights really show off the decor! nevermind the random marine that strolls in and could snipe our upgrades in future!".
I'm not 100 % sure, but I think you disagreed with yourself by the end of that, not with me.
I'm an NSPlayer by heart, not a marine. And most of my ideas are to give aliens more power, without having stupid band-aid powers. Yes I want to get rid of tunnels off infestation, but bolster them in other ways that make more sense with game-flow. Tunnels are random and I would think if you care about the logic of stupid lights in hives you would think that too.
edcit: I'm 1900 skill, level 15, and I abhor having to kill cysts to shove aliens into their base, but I do it because of winning. I only play on the Captains server and Tactical Freedom anymore, everywhere else I feel like a piece of shit. It's not a strategy I should be able to employ.
You are more reminiscing than you are suggesting something realistic for NS2
I just don't see Pres being removed with every lifeform being rebalanced to accommodate at this stage in NS2's life.
So, if we're stuck with that quasi class based system that you pointed out, we need to have something that mimics those impactful timings... which, would be the comeback mechanics I keep suggesting hehe
edit: This is beginning to derail the thread, we should take it elsewhere