I cannot speak for Mendasp, but there are 3 reasons WHY I pulled my mods. If it was solely out of frustration with UWE, I would have left them up and walked away not caring. Half of my frustrating comes from just the lack of communication from UWE. I asked multiple times, and its not just no response... There was responses FROM the people DOING the work. And when I brought up ISSUES right after that initial response, I got nothing. THATS what has ALWAYS been a problem... UWE cannot handle someone pointing out a problem. This happened MULTIPLE times over the 3 month period after discord when things were supposed to be better. Its not that difficult to respond and say we'll look into it, or yea maybe that is something we should consider.
However, the other half of the problem has been the competitive community. Since the mods have become the staple, people don't even bring issues up to UWE.. they come to me or Mendasp and expect it to be fixed. This leads to a massive disconnect between whats fixed and whats not, and also makes it seem like only a really small amount of people dislike official changes. I don't know WHY people are so disconnected from the base game, its certainly not that difficult to provide feedback on the forums... I get the balance discussions can be a can of worms however... This leads into the final point...
The final part is the entire competitive vs everyone else attitude... Quite frankly, I am so *($#(*@ tired of that... I've been called an elitist asshole MULTIPLE times by people directly involved with the game, and typically I get warned for having a 'negative' attitude if I respond... I've tried to just ignore it again and again, but after all this time, and having 'official' people saying it just makes me question why I even try to help.... I wont sit around and be treated like a second class citizen while doing work to help their game, and the comp scene.
For the most part, I have no beef with 'UWE'. I cannot say I support some of their choices of late, but I suspect many things are out of their hands. I certainly think communication needs improvement, OR they need to set some clearer expectations on what channels they respond too. I was under the impression that discord was a medium for open topics discussion, not that they needed to be PM'd... I mean I could just do that on the forums, whats the difference exactly?
I would really enjoy ns2+ being put into ns2 under an advanced options menu. Maybe not everything in ns2+, but a good majority of it could go in without complaints. Ns2+ could even be put in with the extension system just as easily, if mendasp would allow that.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I will admit your last post makes more sense the the previous stuff you said @xDragon .
Regardless if I find it a improvement or not, its always good to keep info supplied so stuff is fixed in vanilla.
I always try to keep both a foot in pub and a foot in competitive, and feel im one of the few who does so. So I recognise this split you are talking of.
As with the discord thing.. I just dont fully agree. Its a medium to chat yes, and I know if someone stops half convo its annoying but it happens. They also have lives.
I had to wait on many a answer in the past before also. In such cases I also went to PM.. it just.. is.
It can be good, it can be bad.. but PM still is a sort of viable alternative. But yes, I do see your point.
this weekend's tournament play proves that comp play isn't going to die without Dragon's mod.
You mean the tournament that had at least one team and many individual players quit? The one that had the second day cancelled due to lack of returning players? The league that has been seemingly indefinitely delayed until the mod situation can be figured out? The lack of gathers/pugs edit: on the weekend? Cancellation of scrims that have been scheduled a week in advance?
Did you watch any of the three streams during the tournament? I did. For the most part all I could hear was frustration.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Yeah. All that. We make a lot of noise, but many of us would remain in the casual and competitive spaces with weaker mods, and more baggage-free players are incoming to replace those of us who wouldn't. Comp play enjoys Dragon's mods like we all enjoy NS2+, but -- temporary confusion and complaining aside -- the core of NS2's casual and competitive institutions will remain if these delicious mods don't. To suggest otherwise is grandstanding.
I played in it as a merc for one match. I didnt even want to play the second round, it was painful having to go back after all the qol improvements ns2+ in particular offers as well as the much needed balance changes that compmod brought. So many people think that there are things people prefer to be given an advantage, and that's all dependent on the user. Best example I can think of is the option to hide view models. If it offered a real competitive advantage, everyone would be disabling them. However a LOT of highly skilled players prefer to play w/ them on as it's simply a preference. Some people cant play w/out them. There is literally no noticeable difference between players who do and players who dont. Anyways, I digress.
@wyzcrack, the "core" of competitive institutions will certainly NOT remain, if you were in touch at all w/ how people are feeling after this weekend, you wouldn't be saying this. But then again, you seem to float on your own personal cloud of superior opinion, so I'm not surprised to read things like this. You dish but cant take w/out some jabby comment in retort. Namesake confirmed.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I don't mean the same /people/ would remain (although some would). I mean that, if all mods /and/ mod-dependent people left (which won't happen... I get it...), the institution of NS2 being played in an organized way that prioritizes winning would continue without too much delay. A leader who wanted that organized, more-than-casual play and didn't so strongly see the lost mods as a prerequisite to it would step up and offer that organization to the other folks wanting it. Eventually, as that become the norm, the complaining would certainly subside.
^Wyz - Your posts always seem to have a flavor to them that goes something like: ...Just leave if you're negative. I"m a fan boy and let me continue to praise everything UWE does. Someone will take your place and see you later.
I don't like your take on it. Yes, you are a champion of UWE praise...but it's like you do it to be completely opposite of all complaints. There are degrees to everything. Not everything is great or terrible. Can't we just work on some compromises and all admit that things can be done better?
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I'm not telling anyone to leave by forecasting sustainability in response to the rage quit they've just threatened. If you don't wanna talk about what your absence looks like, don't bring it up.
We can all be opposite destructive delivery and melodrama and leave more space for constructive complaints. Most of us are already there.
He has clearly no insight or understanding of how competitive communities grow and work. Especially one of this scale. I would just stop engaging him. Waste of time.
It's holding the playerbase hostage. That's the intent behind this whole thing. "If you (the developers) won't give in to our demands then we'll make half the playerbase quit for not having our mods, and then the other half will quit because there aren't enough people left to play with".
I'm probably making it sound trivial and unjustifiable by saying "demands" here. That's not really my intent, I'm just trying to point out how they might expect to gain from this
These posts by sotanaht and Locklear and this thread give weight to my originally titled post about Atmospheric Territories. It was originally called "You're killing NS2..." forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/140875/atmospheric-territories-mod-title-name-change-due-to-confusion-and-dislikes/p1 Everyone seemed to disagree with that posting yet it caused a bit of uproar and the Atmospheric Territories extension has been rolled back for the time being and will probably be re-worked. I just assume it not be in the game or that it can be toggled.
But, for those that love the game and play it before any other game, we can feel like the game is moving in the wrong direction. This is especially true if great mods are no longer supported or if some of those mods cannot be incorporated into vanilla NS2. They really should be.
As pointed out above, there are other games to play. No one's holding anyone hostage.
For some, there are no other games they wish to play. So it can hurt a bit when the game suffers due to lack of continued development, unsupported mods that won't or can't make it into the game, or various other reasons. If we can't have our NS2+, compmod, Combat, yet receive newly added immersive lighting that doesn't work for everyone and actually makes the game a bit harder to see and play, it can be a little painful. It becomes less enjoyable to play - this game that we love so much.
Look at Steamcharts, NS2 was dying with compmod and NS2+. They even try to intentionaly kill the game. Any sane Person would just pass the torch to someone else if they cant handle it anymore.
CDT is doing a good Job. The "Play Now" Button was critical, before, new players would just get nonstop raped by Vets making them quit the game.
It's hilarious to think that the people who actually run NS2 backbone aren't the devs at all. Most people forget that the modders and community leaders / hosters are running all your servers, fixing all the quirks and gripes in the game through mods and hosting of tournaments, it's not that they're looking for gratification from average go players but they're not getting any sort of gratification where it is needed, especially since most of these people have been here since 2003 and still produce content for the core player-base.
Communication is key here, hell we could release mods that change the game-play completely and the only servers populated with vanilla will be UWE rookie servers and a couple of euro servers.
The paid development team isn't the core UWE team, neither is it the team that accepted sewleks changes early on. "more concurrent players, increased retention" yeah but that's correlation vs causation that could attributed to numerous things. NS2 wouldn't be populated right now without the help of the people who are being ignored and or laughed at for various questions or even the power position that they need, stupid niggles, bugs, and exploits, features for performance never having been fixed. Also having information withheld and mislead from the mouths of people working in the game you think NS2 would still be alive without the help of the people who are unhappy right now? deluded.
Also for those of you who are misinformed:
Don't confuse the current UWE with the core original team of UWE developers, they're as good as dead and atthis rate with there non-input @Flayra@Max , that's the problem, you have people like mendasp who have been here since NS was originally created who continues to craft wonderful arts and works for the community, hell he was even on the thank you list for NS1 from Charlie/Flayra himself, same goes for people like puzl (do you still exist) who updated NS till it died, they deserve more respect then nobodies, Hell even most of the CDT members that i dislike put more fourth, there sure is a disconnect from internal to external right? hope you understand now that paid development team lead by hugh and his peers who are only holding on because they think they mean something outside these forums don't care about NS2 other then to retain players, even if that means falsly attributing there changes as to being perceived as liked.
As pointed out above, there are other games to play. No one's holding anyone hostage.
No you are missing the point entirely. Their goal is to make the playerbase STOP playing. That's their leverage, killing the game.
This is not the intention at all. Don't put words in their mouths.
Whether the intention is one or the other really doesn't matter to me. In my personal case, the effect is exactly what @sotanaht describes. I no longer have any desire to return to NS2. In spite of all the positive buzz we've had lately.
I always feared, early on even when NS2+ was known as CHUD, that Mendasp's mod in particular would become too big and irreplaceable. For exactly this reason, that he could use it as leverage if he for what ever reason wished to and at any point in time.
This 'irrational' fear increasingly grew as Mendasp started to add little troll modes, starting with swalk mode iirc. Which he could impose on anybody he wants. Of course, we would be 'insured', that he would only do this as jokes and we can always disable it in console etc.
So I had to decide.. IF he would ever impose a trollmode on me, what would I do? Would I just wait for him to, and trust that he would, decide to turn it off on his own? I don't know Mendasp that well, and I know so far he's only really doing it with people he knows. But still, I had to make these considerations on principle.
For me, I decided, that this would be an absolute deal breaker. I would not wait for my game to become playable again - only to wonder, when I would have to go through it again.
He would sometimes joke in voip and chats about stopping upkeep or removing the mod, or sabotaging it, in protest - but we could always pass it off as him blowing off steam..
And look; this is a critique on @mendasp's behavior, but it is just as much a testament to the quality and value that I put on his work. Some of you are probably thinking "Just go play with vanilla settings". No; this is not an option for me, I'd rather not play at all.
Now he has not singled me out by imposing a trollmode on me. His target isn't even me at all. But the effect on my enjoyment, nay, ability to play, is indistinguishable.
Until now, these have been irrational fears.. But now it is reality. Once this is all over, ask yourselves, when will they claim their next demands? And when will you again be subject to their mercy? Mendasp once had the benefit of doubt on this issue. How could this possibly be repaired now?
It is a dealbreaker for me. I cannot become reinvested in a game, that can be hold hostage like this. Especially, when such a large majority of the community, don't seem to condemn this behavior. Where is the deterrence for Mendasp to ever repeat this?
Yes, he has stated that it is only temporary.. But how can I insure, that he will not repeat this stunt the next time he gets pissy on somebody?
I understand why he wanted to stand in solidarity with dragon, I really do. And in that cause, I'd probably stand right beside you. But not this way. This move to remove NS2+, for any reason what so ever, is a dealbreaker for me.
Inb4; I am singling Mendasp out here, because I do not view it as the same, as when dragon removed his mods. Dragons mods largely only affected competitive games - without them, the game is strictly speaking still playable. And if I understand correctly, dragon is not just holding a ransom, but actually contemplating quitting. -In which case we can't demand he does something he doesn't want to do.
So you can say @Golden that sotanaht is putting words in their mouth. Maybe he is, but it is really beside the issue. The effect, whether this was the intention or not, is exactly what sotanaht describes - at the very least in my case.
Edit-and-tldr: I don't think any less of Mendasp because of this, I think he's a great guy. I sympathize with why he did it. But I do not, and will not, agree with his method.
Honestly, to me it seems like you should be more angry at UWE for basically relying on Mendasp's free work to make certain aspects of the game meet players expectations for this long rather than fixing the game themselves.
Let's be real here, who's fault is it that the game is so dependent on NS2+ for the most basic stuff (stats, hitsounds, etc.), UWE or Mendasp? Obviously UWE.
Regardless of the reason he took his mod down, at the end of the day, it's his mod and he can do what he wants with it, sure some might find it unfair when it gets taken down so suddenly, however the blame still lies on UWE for not fixing their game.
Not knowing the conversations or lack thereof, nor being a mod creator, I still fail to see how those mods were taken for granted by the community as a whole. When Wob says "We take mods for granted" I am assuming he means we as in the community. Before all this drama I thought it was clear that those mods were incredibly important. The fact that nearly every server had them was evidence they were not taken for granted.
To answer your question, taking something for granted is expecting something to be always available (I actually had to look that up). In that sense, I believe that the community does take the work of popular modders for granted, and the fact that these mods are on almost all servers (and the outcry that occurs when they are taken down) basically demonstrates this. I believe it would also be accurate to say the the community takes for granted that modders will fix many of ns2's most basic problems when UWE doesn't.
After spending the majority of the weekend fishing and painting the house, I loaded up NS2 for the first time and found to my horror that NS2+ was down (despite being only temporary for now).
I found the entire experience frustrating and decided to play other games for the meantime. During all this it made me realise how "mod dependant" NS2 really is.
I must say I was really disappointed that @Mendasp decided this would be a good idea and made me realise even more how unenjoyable NS2 is without NS2+.
@SantaClaws was correct in his paragraph earlier, I'd rather from now on PDT concentrated their time on implementing NS2+ and maybe even xdragons if he was happy with it.
Too much time has been wasted on achievements (fun but not essential) and Atmosphere mod (Never had a personal problem with but the majority of the competitive scene do) already.
I mean for heaven's sake create Mod Development Team (MDT) with mendasp and xdragon as the team leaders or something, give them their due once and for all and involve them in all future communication from now we can prevent any situation like this happening again all because the two groups don't know how to communicate to each other.
As pointed out above, there are other games to play. No one's holding anyone hostage.
No you are missing the point entirely. Their goal is to make the playerbase STOP playing. That's their leverage, killing the game.
This is not the intention at all. Don't put words in their mouths.
Whether the intention is one or the other really doesn't matter to me. In my personal case, the effect is exactly what @sotanaht describes. I no longer have any desire to return to NS2. In spite of all the positive buzz we've had lately.
Are you saying that when ns2+ is brought back (in mod form or implementation), you'll still not come back? That sounds like underlying issues where this was only the straw that broke the camel's back. In which case this protest wasn't the fundamental cause of "killing the game".
I always feared, early on even when NS2+ was known as CHUD, that Mendasp's mod in particular would become too big and irreplaceable. For exactly this reason, that he could use it as leverage if he for what ever reason wished to and at any point in time.
Two issues I want to address here to ease your fears.
1. Should the mod have ever needed to become so big?
2. If the leverage is used to improve the game, why is it a bad thing?
It seems clear to me that Mendasp has been used as a crutch and support for UWE and ns2. The fact that people find this game unpalatable because of the lack of this mod speaks volumes for ns2's faults. At the end of the day, those faults lie at the door of UWE.
If UWE implement these features it kills two birds with one stone. NS2+ has less quality of life (QoL) impacts on the game and so is less important, and as a result Mendasp has less leverage to steer the game. Now it's really important to be able to make the link that the reason Mendasp has leverage over his mod is because it is popular and what the community wants and what the game needs. This can only be a good thing. If his mods were rubbish and of no value, he'd have no influence on the game, so there is clearly something of value here.
This 'irrational' fear increasingly grew as Mendasp started to add little troll modes, starting with swalk mode iirc. Which he could impose on anybody he wants. Of course, we would be 'insured', that he would only do this as jokes and we can always disable it in console etc.
So I had to decide.. IF he would ever impose a trollmode on me, what would I do? Would I just wait for him to, and trust that he would, decide to turn it off on his own? I don't know Mendasp that well, and I know so far he's only really doing it with people he knows. But still, I had to make these considerations on principle.
For me, I decided, that this would be an absolute deal breaker. I would not wait for my game to become playable again - only to wonder, when I would have to go through it again.
He would sometimes joke in voip and chats about stopping upkeep or removing the mod, or sabotaging it, in protest - but we could always pass it off as him blowing off steam..
And look; this is a critique on @mendasp's behavior, but it is just as much a testament to the quality and value that I put on his work. Some of you are probably thinking "Just go play with vanilla settings". No; this is not an option for me, I'd rather not play at all.
Now he has not singled me out by imposing a trollmode on me. His target isn't even me at all. But the effect on my enjoyment, nay, ability to play, is indistinguishable.
This is really simple and you've surprised me by being quite so rash.
There are three parties involved in creating the experience of ns2 for players.
1. PDT
2. Modders
3. Server ops
Now lets say PDT takes all the QoL improvements from ns2+ and implements them.
NS2+ is now only troll modes.
Mendasp HYPOTHETICALLY gets "pissy" and brings down ns2+
No one cares because it's only troll modes so they don't support him.
Server ops don't support him and can disable features of ns2+ or even the whole mod if that's what's left.
Thus Mendasp's hypothetical tantrum has no effect on your player experience.
Until now, these have been irrational fears.. But now it is reality. Once this is all over, ask yourselves, when will they claim their next demands? And when will you again be subject to their mercy? Mendasp once had the benefit of doubt on this issue. How could this possibly be repaired now?
It is a dealbreaker for me. I cannot become reinvested in a game, that can be hold hostage like this. Especially, when such a large majority of the community, don't seem to condemn this behavior. Where is the deterrence for Mendasp to ever repeat this?
Your fear is still irrational thus you can not be reasoned with until you see the value in implementation of his mod and giving him the respect he deserves and that is simply the deterrence.
Yes, he has stated that it is only temporary.. But how can I insure, that he will not repeat this stunt the next time he gets pissy on somebody?
I understand why he wanted to stand in solidarity with dragon, I really do. And in that cause, I'd probably stand right beside you. But not this way. This move to remove NS2+, for any reason what so ever, is a dealbreaker for me.
Unfortunately this sounds very entitled and this kind of behaviour can only contribute to why people do these kinds of things. You appreciate their services but then expect them to go through thick and thin for your own benefit despite the hardships they might have. I'm really surprised you don't seem to have empathy for the cause. There are red lines for people, and I completely respect that the reasons these guys did these things are entirely reasonable. For that reason I support them and their decision even though it makes me enjoy the game less.
Inb4; I am singling Mendasp out here, because I do not view it as the same, as when dragon removed his mods. Dragons mods largely only affected competitive games - without them, the game is strictly speaking still playable... The effect, whether this was the intention or not, is exactly what sotanaht describes - at the very least in my case.
I ask that you consider the fault of UWE for not implementing these QoL changes. And if you come to the same conclusion as me, that they are to blame for not working with Mendasp to make these official, then I ask you to consider how you divide the blame between Mendasp and UWE. I put more of the share onto UWE because of the amount of time they've had, their history with poor decisions and communication, and their behaviour.
Thus whilst Mendasp has added to this effect, UWE fundamentally caused it.
As pointed out above, there are other games to play. No one's holding anyone hostage.
No you are missing the point entirely. Their goal is to make the playerbase STOP playing. That's their leverage, killing the game.
This is not the intention at all. Don't put words in their mouths.
Whether the intention is one or the other really doesn't matter to me. In my personal case, the effect is exactly what @sotanaht describes. I no longer have any desire to return to NS2. In spite of all the positive buzz we've had lately.
I always feared, early on even when NS2+ was known as CHUD, that Mendasp's mod in particular would become too big and irreplaceable. For exactly this reason, that he could use it as leverage if he for what ever reason wished to and at any point in time.
This 'irrational' fear increasingly grew as Mendasp started to add little troll modes, starting with swalk mode iirc. Which he could impose on anybody he wants. Of course, we would be 'insured', that he would only do this as jokes and we can always disable it in console etc.
So I had to decide.. IF he would ever impose a trollmode on me, what would I do? Would I just wait for him to, and trust that he would, decide to turn it off on his own? I don't know Mendasp that well, and I know so far he's only really doing it with people he knows. But still, I had to make these considerations on principle.
For me, I decided, that this would be an absolute deal breaker. I would not wait for my game to become playable again - only to wonder, when I would have to go through it again.
He would sometimes joke in voip and chats about stopping upkeep or removing the mod, or sabotaging it, in protest - but we could always pass it off as him blowing off steam..
And look; this is a critique on @mendasp's behavior, but it is just as much a testament to the quality and value that I put on his work. Some of you are probably thinking "Just go play with vanilla settings". No; this is not an option for me, I'd rather not play at all.
Now he has not singled me out by imposing a trollmode on me. His target isn't even me at all. But the effect on my enjoyment, nay, ability to play, is indistinguishable.
Until now, these have been irrational fears.. But now it is reality. Once this is all over, ask yourselves, when will they claim their next demands? And when will you again be subject to their mercy? Mendasp once had the benefit of doubt on this issue. How could this possibly be repaired now?
It is a dealbreaker for me. I cannot become reinvested in a game, that can be hold hostage like this. Especially, when such a large majority of the community, don't seem to condemn this behavior. Where is the deterrence for Mendasp to ever repeat this?
Yes, he has stated that it is only temporary.. But how can I insure, that he will not repeat this stunt the next time he gets pissy on somebody?
I understand why he wanted to stand in solidarity with dragon, I really do. And in that cause, I'd probably stand right beside you. But not this way. This move to remove NS2+, for any reason what so ever, is a dealbreaker for me.
Inb4; I am singling Mendasp out here, because I do not view it as the same, as when dragon removed his mods. Dragons mods largely only affected competitive games - without them, the game is strictly speaking still playable. And if I understand correctly, dragon is not just holding a ransom, but actually contemplating quitting. -In which case we can't demand he does something he doesn't want to do.
So you can say @Golden that sotanaht is putting words in their mouth. Maybe he is, but it is really beside the issue. The effect, whether this was the intention or not, is exactly what sotanaht describes - at the very least in my case.
Edit-and-tldr: I don't think any less of Mendasp because of this, I think he's a great guy. I sympathize with why he did it. But I do not, and will not, agree with his method.
Honestly, to me it seems like you should be more angry at UWE for basically relying on Mendasp's free work to make certain aspects of the game meet players expectations for this long rather than fixing the game themselves.
Let's be real here, who's fault is it that the game is so dependent on NS2+ for the most basic stuff (stats, hitsounds, etc.), UWE or Mendasp? Obviously UWE.
Regardless of the reason he took his mod down, at the end of the day, it's his mod and he can do what he wants with it, sure some might find it unfair when it gets taken down so suddenly, however the blame still lies on UWE for not fixing their game.
The post wasn't about UWE, it was about Mendasp's behavior. So I didn't see the point in talking about UWE. But yes, if you really want me to, I will gladly concede that this whole mess is ultimately UWE's fault and responsibility.
Yes, it's UWE's fault in the first place, for allowing it to come to a place where ones enjoyment can rely on something so fragile as one persons will to work for free. But that doesn't mean that all other actors are exempt from criticism.
I felt the need to express the true impact of Mendasp's decision. Because it's not just about playing on vanilla servers for a few days till this blows over, like some probably naively believe. The benefit of doubt that I held to Mendasp, which allowed me to invest myself in this game in the first place, has been compromised as a result of this decision. I know for certain that he is capable of this now, when I didn't before. We can talk about to what extent Mendasp was pressured in to this decision by UWE, but ultimately, it was his choice.
And I'm not actually angry at anyone. What I feel is more like disappointment. I had a good talk with Mendasp last night. He was sympathetic to my side as well, and he did reinsert some faith and a little bit of redemption for his decision, but I still maintain my main point.
Again. I sympathize with mendasp and dragon, and I hope things change in their favor in the near future. And I don't think any less of either one of them because of this one issue.
As pointed out above, there are other games to play. No one's holding anyone hostage.
No you are missing the point entirely. Their goal is to make the playerbase STOP playing. That's their leverage, killing the game.
This is not the intention at all. Don't put words in their mouths.
Whether the intention is one or the other really doesn't matter to me. In my personal case, the effect is exactly what @sotanaht describes. I no longer have any desire to return to NS2. In spite of all the positive buzz we've had lately.
Are you saying that when ns2+ is brought back (in mod form or implementation), you'll still not come back? That sounds like underlying issues where this was only the straw that broke the camel's back. In which case this protest wasn't the fundamental cause of "killing the game".
I always feared, early on even when NS2+ was known as CHUD, that Mendasp's mod in particular would become too big and irreplaceable. For exactly this reason, that he could use it as leverage if he for what ever reason wished to and at any point in time.
Two issues I want to address here to ease your fears.
1. Should the mod have ever needed to become so big?
2. If the leverage is used to improve the game, why is it a bad thing?
It seems clear to me that Mendasp has been used as a crutch and support for UWE and ns2. The fact that people find this game unpalatable because of the lack of this mod speaks volumes for ns2's faults. At the end of the day, those faults lie at the door of UWE.
If UWE implement these features it kills two birds with one stone. NS2+ has less quality of life (QoL) impacts on the game and so is less important, and as a result Mendasp has less leverage to steer the game. Now it's really important to be able to make the link that the reason Mendasp has leverage over his mod is because it is popular and what the community wants and what the game needs. This can only be a good thing. If his mods were rubbish and of no value, he'd have no influence on the game, so there is clearly something of value here.
This 'irrational' fear increasingly grew as Mendasp started to add little troll modes, starting with swalk mode iirc. Which he could impose on anybody he wants. Of course, we would be 'insured', that he would only do this as jokes and we can always disable it in console etc.
So I had to decide.. IF he would ever impose a trollmode on me, what would I do? Would I just wait for him to, and trust that he would, decide to turn it off on his own? I don't know Mendasp that well, and I know so far he's only really doing it with people he knows. But still, I had to make these considerations on principle.
For me, I decided, that this would be an absolute deal breaker. I would not wait for my game to become playable again - only to wonder, when I would have to go through it again.
He would sometimes joke in voip and chats about stopping upkeep or removing the mod, or sabotaging it, in protest - but we could always pass it off as him blowing off steam..
And look; this is a critique on @mendasp's behavior, but it is just as much a testament to the quality and value that I put on his work. Some of you are probably thinking "Just go play with vanilla settings". No; this is not an option for me, I'd rather not play at all.
Now he has not singled me out by imposing a trollmode on me. His target isn't even me at all. But the effect on my enjoyment, nay, ability to play, is indistinguishable.
This is really simple and you've surprised me by being quite so rash.
There are three parties involved in creating the experience of ns2 for players.
1. PDT
2. Modders
3. Server ops
Now lets say PDT takes all the QoL improvements from ns2+ and implements them.
NS2+ is now only troll modes.
Mendasp HYPOTHETICALLY gets "pissy" and brings down ns2+
No one cares because it's only troll modes so they don't support him.
Server ops don't support him and can disable features of ns2+ or even the whole mod if that's what's left.
Thus Mendasp's hypothetical tantrum has no effect on your player experience.
Until now, these have been irrational fears.. But now it is reality. Once this is all over, ask yourselves, when will they claim their next demands? And when will you again be subject to their mercy? Mendasp once had the benefit of doubt on this issue. How could this possibly be repaired now?
It is a dealbreaker for me. I cannot become reinvested in a game, that can be hold hostage like this. Especially, when such a large majority of the community, don't seem to condemn this behavior. Where is the deterrence for Mendasp to ever repeat this?
Your fear is still irrational thus you can not be reasoned with until you see the value in implementation of his mod and giving him the respect he deserves and that is simply the deterrence.
Yes, he has stated that it is only temporary.. But how can I insure, that he will not repeat this stunt the next time he gets pissy on somebody?
I understand why he wanted to stand in solidarity with dragon, I really do. And in that cause, I'd probably stand right beside you. But not this way. This move to remove NS2+, for any reason what so ever, is a dealbreaker for me.
Unfortunately this sounds very entitled and this kind of behaviour can only contribute to why people do these kinds of things. You appreciate their services but then expect them to go through thick and thin for your own benefit despite the hardships they might have. I'm really surprised you don't seem to have empathy for the cause. There are red lines for people, and I completely respect that the reasons these guys did these things are entirely reasonable. For that reason I support them and their decision even though it makes me enjoy the game less.
Inb4; I am singling Mendasp out here, because I do not view it as the same, as when dragon removed his mods. Dragons mods largely only affected competitive games - without them, the game is strictly speaking still playable... The effect, whether this was the intention or not, is exactly what sotanaht describes - at the very least in my case.
I ask that you consider the fault of UWE for not implementing these QoL changes. And if you come to the same conclusion as me, that they are to blame for not working with Mendasp to make these official, then I ask you to consider how you divide the blame between Mendasp and UWE. I put more of the share onto UWE because of the amount of time they've had, their history with poor decisions and communication, and their behaviour.
Thus whilst Mendasp has added to this effect, UWE fundamentally caused it.
[/quote]
Has anyone stopped to ask if @Mendasp WANTS his mod to be integrated into vanilla?
Its all well and good proposing these changes but if the mod author doesn't want it to happen, it's all blowing smoke up the arse.
I know that this isn't directly relevant, but could someone explain the idea that having only one person fixing bugs will retain players? How is that supposed to work?!
Well UWE does actually own all content, so if they wanted to be dicks about it and just implement it as is, they could. Hopefully they could come to an arrangement though that shows respect to Mendasp.
If Mendasp doesn't want it to be implemented as vanilla because he feels like the negotiation isn't fair, UWE could still force implementation, only the morality of the issue could only be seen from the attitudes towards the negotiations.
@Wob I didn't see your post until after I posted my response to Alite. I think that post does illuminate some of those points you bring up, so please read that in conjunction with the following.
As pointed out above, there are other games to play. No one's holding anyone hostage.
No you are missing the point entirely. Their goal is to make the playerbase STOP playing. That's their leverage, killing the game.
This is not the intention at all. Don't put words in their mouths.
Whether the intention is one or the other really doesn't matter to me. In my personal case, the effect is exactly what @sotanaht describes. I no longer have any desire to return to NS2. In spite of all the positive buzz we've had lately.
Are you saying that when ns2+ is brought back (in mod form or implementation), you'll still not come back? That sounds like underlying issues where this was only the straw that broke the camel's back. In which case this protest wasn't the fundamental cause of "killing the game".
Yes that is what I'm saying. I misread that. No if it is implemented in vanilla, then I would return, the rest of the post qualifies this. And yes of course there are underlying issues, as I explain in Alites post, I do blame UWE. But that post wasn't about UWE, it was about mendasp, so I saw no reason to include UWE's wrongdoings (How could I ever finish such a long list?), even though I fully recognize their part. I prefer to separate the issues. Otherwise the discussion becomes extremely convoluted.
I always feared, early on even when NS2+ was known as CHUD, that Mendasp's mod in particular would become too big and irreplaceable. For exactly this reason, that he could use it as leverage if he for what ever reason wished to and at any point in time.
Two issues I want to address here to ease your fears.
1. Should the mod have ever needed to become so big?
2. If the leverage is used to improve the game, why is it a bad thing?
1. No of course not, as I told Mendasp last night. It is a display of absolute incompetence on UWE's part, that they have not made these qol improvements on their own to begin with. This is why I sympathize with the cause.
2. Because while my interest may be aligned with Mendasp and Dragon TODAY. I have no guarantee that it will next week, or the week after that. My interest and their demands, might not always align.
It seems clear to me that Mendasp has been used as a crutch and support for UWE and ns2. The fact that people find this game unpalatable because of the lack of this mod speaks volumes for ns2's faults. At the end of the day, those faults lie at the door of UWE.
If UWE implement these features it kills two birds with one stone. NS2+ has less quality of life (QoL) impacts on the game and so is less important, and as a result Mendasp has less leverage to steer the game. Now it's really important to be able to make the link that the reason Mendasp has leverage over his mod is because it is popular and what the community wants and what the game needs. This can only be a good thing. If his mods were rubbish and of no value, he'd have no influence on the game, so there is clearly something of value here.
I never implied otherwise. I'm sympathetic to the cause. Lets get back on track.
This 'irrational' fear increasingly grew as Mendasp started to add little troll modes, starting with swalk mode iirc. Which he could impose on anybody he wants. Of course, we would be 'insured', that he would only do this as jokes and we can always disable it in console etc.
So I had to decide.. IF he would ever impose a trollmode on me, what would I do? Would I just wait for him to, and trust that he would, decide to turn it off on his own? I don't know Mendasp that well, and I know so far he's only really doing it with people he knows. But still, I had to make these considerations on principle.
For me, I decided, that this would be an absolute deal breaker. I would not wait for my game to become playable again - only to wonder, when I would have to go through it again.
He would sometimes joke in voip and chats about stopping upkeep or removing the mod, or sabotaging it, in protest - but we could always pass it off as him blowing off steam..
And look; this is a critique on @mendasp's behavior, but it is just as much a testament to the quality and value that I put on his work. Some of you are probably thinking "Just go play with vanilla settings". No; this is not an option for me, I'd rather not play at all.
Now he has not singled me out by imposing a trollmode on me. His target isn't even me at all. But the effect on my enjoyment, nay, ability to play, is indistinguishable.
This is really simple and you've surprised me by being quite so rash.
There are three parties involved in creating the experience of ns2 for players.
1. PDT
2. Modders
3. Server ops
Now lets say PDT takes all the QoL improvements from ns2+ and implements them.
NS2+ is now only troll modes.
Mendasp HYPOTHETICALLY gets "pissy" and brings down ns2+
No one cares because it's only troll modes so they don't support him.
Server ops don't support him and can disable features of ns2+ or even the whole mod if that's what's left.
Thus Mendasp's hypothetical tantrum has no effect on your player experience.
Right. IF the demands are met, and PDT implements all the QoL improvements, then of course I will happily return. Then the mutual assured destruction option is dispelled. Ironhorse already cemented this earlier on this page. And I think that's what everyone wants, including mendasp @Yojimbo . But what if the demands are not met, and history repeats itself, UWE sit on their thumbs. What if NS2+ is not implemented in vanilla? Then the nuclear option continues to hang over us. I won't invest in a game where this risk exists.
Until now, these have been irrational fears.. But now it is reality. Once this is all over, ask yourselves, when will they claim their next demands? And when will you again be subject to their mercy? Mendasp once had the benefit of doubt on this issue. How could this possibly be repaired now?
It is a dealbreaker for me. I cannot become reinvested in a game, that can be hold hostage like this. Especially, when such a large majority of the community, don't seem to condemn this behavior. Where is the deterrence for Mendasp to ever repeat this?
Your fear is still irrational thus you can not be reasoned with until you see the value in implementation of his mod and giving him the respect he deserves and that is simply the deterrence.
This again. I sympathize with the cause, I do see the value in the implementation of the mods. It's not about any of that. It's about a trust, or rather a doubt, that has been compromised by recent decisions.
Yes, he has stated that it is only temporary.. But how can I insure, that he will not repeat this stunt the next time he gets pissy on somebody?
I understand why he wanted to stand in solidarity with dragon, I really do. And in that cause, I'd probably stand right beside you. But not this way. This move to remove NS2+, for any reason what so ever, is a dealbreaker for me.
Unfortunately this sounds very entitled and this kind of behaviour can only contribute to why people do these kinds of things. You appreciate their services but then expect them to go through thick and thin for your own benefit despite the hardships they might have. I'm really surprised you don't seem to have empathy for the cause. There are red lines for people, and I completely respect that the reasons these guys did these things are entirely reasonable. For that reason I support them and their decision even though it makes me enjoy the game less.
Let me be very clear. I will stand in solidarity with dragon and mendasp on this issue however I can. Except condoning the removal of NS2+. I will even grant you this, which you seem to imply; that the end justifies the means. If NS2+ gets implemented in vanilla, then it has all been worth it. But if it doesn't... Then I'm out. That is the risk that Mendasp took with his decision. And for me, I have to be honest, I'm not optimistic about our chances, if history is anything to judge by.
Inb4; I am singling Mendasp out here, because I do not view it as the same, as when dragon removed his mods. Dragons mods largely only affected competitive games - without them, the game is strictly speaking still playable... The effect, whether this was the intention or not, is exactly what sotanaht describes - at the very least in my case.
I ask that you consider the fault of UWE for not implementing these QoL changes. And if you come to the same conclusion as me, that they are to blame for not working with Mendasp to make these official, then I ask you to consider how you divide the blame between Mendasp and UWE. I put more of the share onto UWE because of the amount of time they've had, their history with poor decisions and communication, and their behaviour.
Thus whilst Mendasp has added to this effect, UWE fundamentally caused it.
Mendasp's only mistake, as far as I'm concerned, is using his mod as leverage and ub the process compromising the fragile trust that I had that he wouldn't. UWE is ultimately responsible in my mind. And I support Dragon and Mendasp on this cause.
But what if the demands are not met, and history repeats itself, UWE sit on their thumbs. What if NS2+ is not implemented in vanilla? Then the nuclear option continues to hang over us. I won't invest in a game where this risk exists.
This is essentially what I feel the modders must be thinking for themselves too. Thus if you think it is a good idea for you to stop playing (read: investing time), it must be a good idea for them to stop their mods (read: investing time)
@Wob but that is where Dragon and Mendasp differ in my mind.
Dragon, is actually threatening to quit, if I understand correctly. I have no right or will, to question that. If he wants to quit, I can't fault him for that. I respect that decision.
I would respect that with Mendasp as well. Except mendasp didn't threaten to quit.
Mendasp said: Hello, quick comment, this is just to support dragon and his decision and the mod will be back up in the next few days. If you choose to not run the mod afterwards, I can't do anything about that, and it's fine.
Mendasp said: It's not something that I enjoyed doing, and I know it's going to reflect poorly on me.
Mendasp said: And I'm sorry for any inconvenience caused.
This implies, that unlike dragon, Mendasp is with-holding a working mod for effect as leverage. If Mendasp had come and said that he can't go on any longer, like dragon did. I would've had more respect for that, and I wouldn't have written the post that I did.
Of course, while I would respect that decision more, I'd still quit the game all the same. But while the effect would be the same, it matters how he did it.
If they want to stop, as you put it, so be it. But that's not quite what Mendasp declared here.
@SantaClaws I see mendasp's actions as foreshadowing of what might come should the situation not change. It makes sense for him to be in solidarity with dragon to make an impact now rather than later if UWE crosses mendasp's red lines.
I also see it as making short term sacrifices for long term gains.
Normal channels have failed. Escalation was the only way to be heard.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
I cant understand this drama that Mendasp and xDragon are not in the new Dev-team and i dont know the reason behind it.
All i can say is: If you want to form a team of lets say 5 people in real life (Work, sport, or wherever) but have 7 candidats you have to choose.
And sometimes other aspects than "He has done so much for this community" become more important.
- How can a person handle criticism?
- Is it a real teamplayer?
- Are the technical skills good enough?
- etc
Im sure parts of above flow into the final descisions of "who is part of the team".
I can understand that mendasp and xDragon are kinda frustated now after they are not in the Team.
But i send so many Job applications in my life with an negative answer cant count them.
And im sure i didnt got these jobs cause the questions from above.
I cant understand this drama that Mendasp and xDragon are not in the new Dev-team and i dont know the reason behind it.
You assume this is about being or not in the PDT and then base the rest of your post in that. It's not about that, if you had read anything you'd know this.
I was more than happy doing work in the CDT, for free.
The issues are much different, but if you wish to project your own ideas on this topic, I guess nobody can stop you. That doesn't make any of it true, though, as much as you might wish it were.
Comments
However, the other half of the problem has been the competitive community. Since the mods have become the staple, people don't even bring issues up to UWE.. they come to me or Mendasp and expect it to be fixed. This leads to a massive disconnect between whats fixed and whats not, and also makes it seem like only a really small amount of people dislike official changes. I don't know WHY people are so disconnected from the base game, its certainly not that difficult to provide feedback on the forums... I get the balance discussions can be a can of worms however... This leads into the final point...
The final part is the entire competitive vs everyone else attitude... Quite frankly, I am so *($#(*@ tired of that... I've been called an elitist asshole MULTIPLE times by people directly involved with the game, and typically I get warned for having a 'negative' attitude if I respond... I've tried to just ignore it again and again, but after all this time, and having 'official' people saying it just makes me question why I even try to help.... I wont sit around and be treated like a second class citizen while doing work to help their game, and the comp scene.
For the most part, I have no beef with 'UWE'. I cannot say I support some of their choices of late, but I suspect many things are out of their hands. I certainly think communication needs improvement, OR they need to set some clearer expectations on what channels they respond too. I was under the impression that discord was a medium for open topics discussion, not that they needed to be PM'd... I mean I could just do that on the forums, whats the difference exactly?
Regardless if I find it a improvement or not, its always good to keep info supplied so stuff is fixed in vanilla.
I always try to keep both a foot in pub and a foot in competitive, and feel im one of the few who does so. So I recognise this split you are talking of.
As with the discord thing.. I just dont fully agree. Its a medium to chat yes, and I know if someone stops half convo its annoying but it happens. They also have lives.
I had to wait on many a answer in the past before also. In such cases I also went to PM.. it just.. is.
It can be good, it can be bad.. but PM still is a sort of viable alternative. But yes, I do see your point.
You mean the tournament that had at least one team and many individual players quit? The one that had the second day cancelled due to lack of returning players? The league that has been seemingly indefinitely delayed until the mod situation can be figured out? The lack of gathers/pugs edit: on the weekend? Cancellation of scrims that have been scheduled a week in advance?
Did you watch any of the three streams during the tournament? I did. For the most part all I could hear was frustration.
@wyzcrack, the "core" of competitive institutions will certainly NOT remain, if you were in touch at all w/ how people are feeling after this weekend, you wouldn't be saying this. But then again, you seem to float on your own personal cloud of superior opinion, so I'm not surprised to read things like this. You dish but cant take w/out some jabby comment in retort. Namesake confirmed.
I don't like your take on it. Yes, you are a champion of UWE praise...but it's like you do it to be completely opposite of all complaints. There are degrees to everything. Not everything is great or terrible. Can't we just work on some compromises and all admit that things can be done better?
We can all be opposite destructive delivery and melodrama and leave more space for constructive complaints. Most of us are already there.
These posts by sotanaht and Locklear and this thread give weight to my originally titled post about Atmospheric Territories. It was originally called "You're killing NS2..." forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/140875/atmospheric-territories-mod-title-name-change-due-to-confusion-and-dislikes/p1 Everyone seemed to disagree with that posting yet it caused a bit of uproar and the Atmospheric Territories extension has been rolled back for the time being and will probably be re-worked. I just assume it not be in the game or that it can be toggled.
But, for those that love the game and play it before any other game, we can feel like the game is moving in the wrong direction. This is especially true if great mods are no longer supported or if some of those mods cannot be incorporated into vanilla NS2. They really should be.
For some, there are no other games they wish to play. So it can hurt a bit when the game suffers due to lack of continued development, unsupported mods that won't or can't make it into the game, or various other reasons. If we can't have our NS2+, compmod, Combat, yet receive newly added immersive lighting that doesn't work for everyone and actually makes the game a bit harder to see and play, it can be a little painful. It becomes less enjoyable to play - this game that we love so much.
CDT is doing a good Job. The "Play Now" Button was critical, before, new players would just get nonstop raped by Vets making them quit the game.
Communication is key here, hell we could release mods that change the game-play completely and the only servers populated with vanilla will be UWE rookie servers and a couple of euro servers.
The paid development team isn't the core UWE team, neither is it the team that accepted sewleks changes early on. "more concurrent players, increased retention" yeah but that's correlation vs causation that could attributed to numerous things. NS2 wouldn't be populated right now without the help of the people who are being ignored and or laughed at for various questions or even the power position that they need, stupid niggles, bugs, and exploits, features for performance never having been fixed. Also having information withheld and mislead from the mouths of people working in the game you think NS2 would still be alive without the help of the people who are unhappy right now? deluded.
Also for those of you who are misinformed:
Don't confuse the current UWE with the core original team of UWE developers, they're as good as dead and atthis rate with there non-input @Flayra @Max , that's the problem, you have people like mendasp who have been here since NS was originally created who continues to craft wonderful arts and works for the community, hell he was even on the thank you list for NS1 from Charlie/Flayra himself, same goes for people like puzl
bye now!
Honestly, to me it seems like you should be more angry at UWE for basically relying on Mendasp's free work to make certain aspects of the game meet players expectations for this long rather than fixing the game themselves.
Let's be real here, who's fault is it that the game is so dependent on NS2+ for the most basic stuff (stats, hitsounds, etc.), UWE or Mendasp? Obviously UWE.
Regardless of the reason he took his mod down, at the end of the day, it's his mod and he can do what he wants with it, sure some might find it unfair when it gets taken down so suddenly, however the blame still lies on UWE for not fixing their game.
To answer your question, taking something for granted is expecting something to be always available (I actually had to look that up). In that sense, I believe that the community does take the work of popular modders for granted, and the fact that these mods are on almost all servers (and the outcry that occurs when they are taken down) basically demonstrates this. I believe it would also be accurate to say the the community takes for granted that modders will fix many of ns2's most basic problems when UWE doesn't.
I found the entire experience frustrating and decided to play other games for the meantime. During all this it made me realise how "mod dependant" NS2 really is.
I must say I was really disappointed that @Mendasp decided this would be a good idea and made me realise even more how unenjoyable NS2 is without NS2+.
@SantaClaws was correct in his paragraph earlier, I'd rather from now on PDT concentrated their time on implementing NS2+ and maybe even xdragons if he was happy with it.
Too much time has been wasted on achievements (fun but not essential) and Atmosphere mod (Never had a personal problem with but the majority of the competitive scene do) already.
I mean for heaven's sake create Mod Development Team (MDT) with mendasp and xdragon as the team leaders or something, give them their due once and for all and involve them in all future communication from now we can prevent any situation like this happening again all because the two groups don't know how to communicate to each other.
Are you saying that when ns2+ is brought back (in mod form or implementation), you'll still not come back? That sounds like underlying issues where this was only the straw that broke the camel's back. In which case this protest wasn't the fundamental cause of "killing the game".
Two issues I want to address here to ease your fears.
1. Should the mod have ever needed to become so big?
2. If the leverage is used to improve the game, why is it a bad thing?
It seems clear to me that Mendasp has been used as a crutch and support for UWE and ns2. The fact that people find this game unpalatable because of the lack of this mod speaks volumes for ns2's faults. At the end of the day, those faults lie at the door of UWE.
If UWE implement these features it kills two birds with one stone. NS2+ has less quality of life (QoL) impacts on the game and so is less important, and as a result Mendasp has less leverage to steer the game. Now it's really important to be able to make the link that the reason Mendasp has leverage over his mod is because it is popular and what the community wants and what the game needs. This can only be a good thing. If his mods were rubbish and of no value, he'd have no influence on the game, so there is clearly something of value here.
This is really simple and you've surprised me by being quite so rash.
There are three parties involved in creating the experience of ns2 for players.
1. PDT
2. Modders
3. Server ops
Now lets say PDT takes all the QoL improvements from ns2+ and implements them.
NS2+ is now only troll modes.
Mendasp HYPOTHETICALLY gets "pissy" and brings down ns2+
No one cares because it's only troll modes so they don't support him.
Server ops don't support him and can disable features of ns2+ or even the whole mod if that's what's left.
Thus Mendasp's hypothetical tantrum has no effect on your player experience.
Your fear is still irrational thus you can not be reasoned with until you see the value in implementation of his mod and giving him the respect he deserves and that is simply the deterrence.
Unfortunately this sounds very entitled and this kind of behaviour can only contribute to why people do these kinds of things. You appreciate their services but then expect them to go through thick and thin for your own benefit despite the hardships they might have. I'm really surprised you don't seem to have empathy for the cause. There are red lines for people, and I completely respect that the reasons these guys did these things are entirely reasonable. For that reason I support them and their decision even though it makes me enjoy the game less.
I ask that you consider the fault of UWE for not implementing these QoL changes. And if you come to the same conclusion as me, that they are to blame for not working with Mendasp to make these official, then I ask you to consider how you divide the blame between Mendasp and UWE. I put more of the share onto UWE because of the amount of time they've had, their history with poor decisions and communication, and their behaviour.
Thus whilst Mendasp has added to this effect, UWE fundamentally caused it.
Yes, it's UWE's fault in the first place, for allowing it to come to a place where ones enjoyment can rely on something so fragile as one persons will to work for free. But that doesn't mean that all other actors are exempt from criticism.
I felt the need to express the true impact of Mendasp's decision. Because it's not just about playing on vanilla servers for a few days till this blows over, like some probably naively believe. The benefit of doubt that I held to Mendasp, which allowed me to invest myself in this game in the first place, has been compromised as a result of this decision. I know for certain that he is capable of this now, when I didn't before. We can talk about to what extent Mendasp was pressured in to this decision by UWE, but ultimately, it was his choice.
And I'm not actually angry at anyone. What I feel is more like disappointment. I had a good talk with Mendasp last night. He was sympathetic to my side as well, and he did reinsert some faith and a little bit of redemption for his decision, but I still maintain my main point.
Again. I sympathize with mendasp and dragon, and I hope things change in their favor in the near future. And I don't think any less of either one of them because of this one issue.
Are you saying that when ns2+ is brought back (in mod form or implementation), you'll still not come back? That sounds like underlying issues where this was only the straw that broke the camel's back. In which case this protest wasn't the fundamental cause of "killing the game".
Two issues I want to address here to ease your fears.
1. Should the mod have ever needed to become so big?
2. If the leverage is used to improve the game, why is it a bad thing?
It seems clear to me that Mendasp has been used as a crutch and support for UWE and ns2. The fact that people find this game unpalatable because of the lack of this mod speaks volumes for ns2's faults. At the end of the day, those faults lie at the door of UWE.
If UWE implement these features it kills two birds with one stone. NS2+ has less quality of life (QoL) impacts on the game and so is less important, and as a result Mendasp has less leverage to steer the game. Now it's really important to be able to make the link that the reason Mendasp has leverage over his mod is because it is popular and what the community wants and what the game needs. This can only be a good thing. If his mods were rubbish and of no value, he'd have no influence on the game, so there is clearly something of value here.
This is really simple and you've surprised me by being quite so rash.
There are three parties involved in creating the experience of ns2 for players.
1. PDT
2. Modders
3. Server ops
Now lets say PDT takes all the QoL improvements from ns2+ and implements them.
NS2+ is now only troll modes.
Mendasp HYPOTHETICALLY gets "pissy" and brings down ns2+
No one cares because it's only troll modes so they don't support him.
Server ops don't support him and can disable features of ns2+ or even the whole mod if that's what's left.
Thus Mendasp's hypothetical tantrum has no effect on your player experience.
Your fear is still irrational thus you can not be reasoned with until you see the value in implementation of his mod and giving him the respect he deserves and that is simply the deterrence.
Unfortunately this sounds very entitled and this kind of behaviour can only contribute to why people do these kinds of things. You appreciate their services but then expect them to go through thick and thin for your own benefit despite the hardships they might have. I'm really surprised you don't seem to have empathy for the cause. There are red lines for people, and I completely respect that the reasons these guys did these things are entirely reasonable. For that reason I support them and their decision even though it makes me enjoy the game less.
I ask that you consider the fault of UWE for not implementing these QoL changes. And if you come to the same conclusion as me, that they are to blame for not working with Mendasp to make these official, then I ask you to consider how you divide the blame between Mendasp and UWE. I put more of the share onto UWE because of the amount of time they've had, their history with poor decisions and communication, and their behaviour.
Thus whilst Mendasp has added to this effect, UWE fundamentally caused it.
[/quote]
Has anyone stopped to ask if @Mendasp WANTS his mod to be integrated into vanilla?
Its all well and good proposing these changes but if the mod author doesn't want it to happen, it's all blowing smoke up the arse.
If Mendasp doesn't want it to be implemented as vanilla because he feels like the negotiation isn't fair, UWE could still force implementation, only the morality of the issue could only be seen from the attitudes towards the negotiations.
2. Because while my interest may be aligned with Mendasp and Dragon TODAY. I have no guarantee that it will next week, or the week after that. My interest and their demands, might not always align.
This is essentially what I feel the modders must be thinking for themselves too. Thus if you think it is a good idea for you to stop playing (read: investing time), it must be a good idea for them to stop their mods (read: investing time)
Dragon, is actually threatening to quit, if I understand correctly. I have no right or will, to question that. If he wants to quit, I can't fault him for that. I respect that decision.
I would respect that with Mendasp as well. Except mendasp didn't threaten to quit.
This implies, that unlike dragon, Mendasp is with-holding a working mod for effect as leverage. If Mendasp had come and said that he can't go on any longer, like dragon did. I would've had more respect for that, and I wouldn't have written the post that I did.
Of course, while I would respect that decision more, I'd still quit the game all the same. But while the effect would be the same, it matters how he did it.
If they want to stop, as you put it, so be it. But that's not quite what Mendasp declared here.
Edit: Nvm, might just be some old code stuck in Last Stand.
Such is bad, that UWE has be soaking up all the Donation money for other people's work...
...
Vanilla? please. This isn't vanilla, this is the game!
If UWE gave support to modders instead of subnatica, we wouldn't have this thread.
I also see it as making short term sacrifices for long term gains.
Normal channels have failed. Escalation was the only way to be heard.
All i can say is: If you want to form a team of lets say 5 people in real life (Work, sport, or wherever) but have 7 candidats you have to choose.
And sometimes other aspects than "He has done so much for this community" become more important.
- How can a person handle criticism?
- Is it a real teamplayer?
- Are the technical skills good enough?
- etc
Im sure parts of above flow into the final descisions of "who is part of the team".
I can understand that mendasp and xDragon are kinda frustated now after they are not in the Team.
But i send so many Job applications in my life with an negative answer cant count them.
And im sure i didnt got these jobs cause the questions from above.
I was more than happy doing work in the CDT, for free.
The issues are much different, but if you wish to project your own ideas on this topic, I guess nobody can stop you. That doesn't make any of it true, though, as much as you might wish it were.