Time to update the Objectives
SupaDupaNoodle
Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
When new games start, the default message to players is basically "kill the hive" or "cleanse the intruders".
I think this needs to be changed.
Can we have smaller text, which might be harder to ignore (personally the current large text size actually makes me less likely to read it), and with more specific instructions, such as:
It could be generic, or it could be tailored for each race.
This would really help new players to actually know what they are supposed to be doing, and improve understanding of the strategic component of the game. I know the tutorials cover these points vaguely, but a regular reminder might be useful.
Currently, I think those new to the NS universe would think that the aim is just to run around and kill the hive/CC with exos/gls/onos, and incidentally kill the enemy players you encounter on the way to that objective. Little do they realize that they are just time wasting and waiting to be demolished by a more organized enemy. The necessity of killing enemy res collection to directly slow down enemy tech, and killing enemy support structures to hold positions, therefore helping you to "kill the hive" is probably entirely lost on new players. More detailed instructions/guidance at the start of each game would probably also help reduce rookie-rage incidents, and nudge rookies towards doing something useful by default, rather than just mess around and res collect 'til they can get the big robot/rhino.
Starting NS2 I knew to kill enemy harvesters because I had played NS1 before. I think if I was brand new to the game, I would realize it might be a good idea to kill enemy structures on the map, but would not have realized how vital it is to target these structures.
More detailed instructions would probably lead to less stomps too, as both sides would be actively trying to limit each others' res and other key structures (thereby also increasing encounters with enemy players in mini-battles around harvesters, and probably lengthening games). This would be better than just one team having experienced players who know to res bite and/or having nagging back seat comms telling everyone to res bite, leading to a stomp for that side.
TL;DR
A lot of improvements/tweaks have been made to the game since release, but the objective message on round start has not been updated. At the moment it is plain and unclear. A change to a more specific set of instructions (no more than 3) will help new players understand what they are actually meant to be doing, will likely improve match quality by encouraging and enhancing strategic gameplay, and help rookies be more useful from the get-go.
Comments/criticism welcome.
I think this needs to be changed.
Can we have smaller text, which might be harder to ignore (personally the current large text size actually makes me less likely to read it), and with more specific instructions, such as:
Objectives:
- Destroy enemy resource towers
- Destroy enemy transportation networks (PG/tunnel)
- Destroy enemy support structures (cysts/power nodes; armory/obs; crag/shift/shade)
- Destroy enemy command position (hive/CC)
- Kill enemy lifeforms in your way
It could be generic, or it could be tailored for each race.
This would really help new players to actually know what they are supposed to be doing, and improve understanding of the strategic component of the game. I know the tutorials cover these points vaguely, but a regular reminder might be useful.
Currently, I think those new to the NS universe would think that the aim is just to run around and kill the hive/CC with exos/gls/onos, and incidentally kill the enemy players you encounter on the way to that objective. Little do they realize that they are just time wasting and waiting to be demolished by a more organized enemy. The necessity of killing enemy res collection to directly slow down enemy tech, and killing enemy support structures to hold positions, therefore helping you to "kill the hive" is probably entirely lost on new players. More detailed instructions/guidance at the start of each game would probably also help reduce rookie-rage incidents, and nudge rookies towards doing something useful by default, rather than just mess around and res collect 'til they can get the big robot/rhino.
Starting NS2 I knew to kill enemy harvesters because I had played NS1 before. I think if I was brand new to the game, I would realize it might be a good idea to kill enemy structures on the map, but would not have realized how vital it is to target these structures.
More detailed instructions would probably lead to less stomps too, as both sides would be actively trying to limit each others' res and other key structures (thereby also increasing encounters with enemy players in mini-battles around harvesters, and probably lengthening games). This would be better than just one team having experienced players who know to res bite and/or having nagging back seat comms telling everyone to res bite, leading to a stomp for that side.
TL;DR
A lot of improvements/tweaks have been made to the game since release, but the objective message on round start has not been updated. At the moment it is plain and unclear. A change to a more specific set of instructions (no more than 3) will help new players understand what they are actually meant to be doing, will likely improve match quality by encouraging and enhancing strategic gameplay, and help rookies be more useful from the get-go.
Comments/criticism welcome.
Comments
But keep in mind what a new player is going through: They spawn in a large empty room... chances are their teammates are elsewhere on the map, so they're alone. There's no enemies around, and about 2-3 different routes leading from the room. What do you do? Where do you go? It would help to give them some guidance, eg "destroy the extractors/havesters" or "push the hive", or "kill the phase gate." Maybe given as suggestions would help... or allow the commander to set the priorities.
I think these kind of questions should be addressed in the tutorial so these questions don't arise in the first place.
You say they forget what they heard in the tutorial.
I say bring the tip videos back that play when you spawn. And this time make them say things like "Kill RTs to cripple the enemy's economy", not "Press R to reload".
Tutorial may not be played through by many people, and info can easily be forgotten. Tooltip videos may be disabled. Regular reminders (at the start of each match, and perhaps even re-checkable on pressing Tab, maybe) will help to ingrain the required basics. After that they can learn advanced tactics from commander/team mates.
Just a suggestion to try and improve player experience (for rookies and vets), and improve player retention.
I try to whenever I have rookie(s) on my team
I could see a very real use to having some sort of (non-intrusive) rough task list on a corner of the screen that dynamically change depending on what's going on.
The basics are:
Historically NS2 has not taught these basics very well. We have a few things now that we have not always had. NS2 has an introductory video that new players see when the first launch the game and we have improved tutorials that new players are forced to do if they want to join a non rookie only server before level 5.
Since the paid NS2 development started about 6 months ago, it has been working under a mandate to improve player retention. The stats show that player retention has improved. There has been progress. Work is still being done to improve player retention.
I have never been a fan of Supa's posts, but for once he has asked a valid question. Are the new learning mechanisms teaching the basics as effective as they could be? Does NS2 teach the basics of the game well enough? How could the basics be taught more effectively?
I do agree with this, but after some thought I think more could be done. I don't know if Supa's task list is the answer, but I don't think rookies and low skill veterans understand the side objectives.
I agree that this has been the commanders responsibility. After some thought though, I realized that this was faulty thinking. Game objectives should not be reliant on a single player. This is because the commander may not understand the basics. Or it could be worse, and you have a team that refuses to listen to anyone. I recorded a game last night where I was almost begging a rookie to go through a phasegate so it could be saved.
I don't know what the answer is, but there is a valid concern being expressed in this thread. The basic objectives of the game are not well understood by new players or the lowest levels of skill.
I'd also like a reminder while spawning.
Talking to rookies, i Will put it that way
Economy:
Kill enemy ressources and defend yours, or they will get upgrades and you won't
Tactical:
Marines likes long lines of sight, it gives more time to shoot at aliens
Aliens have to close up to bite, set up traps, let the marine make the move, don't move straight forward yourself when closing or escaping.
Both: Always team up, find a buddy, and follow.
To me, the rest strategy/tactics on the round length is not rookie concern. Just give them what is needed to survive and have their share on the issue with RT attack/defense
For an initial trial though I would propose just listing 3 main objectives that come up at round start and during respawn and/or re-checkable when pressing TAB.
We can see if it has any effect on gameplay over 2-3 weeks. It could be monitored by either automatically recording numbers of RTs/support structures killed during game after the introduction of the list compared to currently (if this is possible); or it would need to be anecdotal with forum comments about what we see happening. We could see if average game length is affected too.
A massive ad infinitum/absurdum list of more than 5 objectives will be too much and just go in one eye and out the other.
My idea is to have another Commander interface tab that you can use to add/remove objectives on a room-by-room basis. Simply by hovering over the room, you can then set preset messages such as "establish forward base", "assault the techpoint", "group up for sneak attack", "attack resource tower", "defend this position" that everyone on the server can see, so they know the over-arching strategy the commander is going for. Multiple of these objectives would be able to be set at one time, one per room.
Of course, communication would be need to be used to segregate different "squads" and give them other orders (don't want everyone on your team running to one position to take down an RT), but at the very least, it would give rookies a way of knowing roughly where on the map the commander wants them, what they should be doing, and if they don't have a clue as to what's going on, somewhere to head.
or ones like pinch this lifeform with low hp, get this marine while he reload, gorge need assistance, gorge heal your allies, etc.
Just a few basic hints that appears on certain conditions to make overall learning faster.
You could make them disappear automatically after a minute or upon completion.
I think this is generally a great idea.
Seasoned players don't need it, and making it work properly in changing contexts so it can actually help rookies is just a tremendous if not impossible task.
Think simple.
For Aliens:
Kill the Chair
Kill all the Marines with the Infantry Portals disabled/destroyed
For Marines:
Kill the Hive
Anything else should go as tooltip type hints that come up when you die and are waiting to respawn.
See, a rookie from may 2016 is approoving me ! I get the rookie vote, I win ;-)
Hey @TriggerHappyBro welcome aboard ! Just say something nice and positive and I'll be honoured to deliver your first awesome !
In any case you should reintroduce the "this place is a mess", "now we dance" and "we need better players" sounds from NS1, because of reasons.
I don't think the basic idea should be overlooked. We need a way to teach the basics mechanics better. A simple way at that.
I just wish UWE would be capable of figuring this kind of stuff out by themselves.
New to the forums, yes. New to NS2, hardly.
Little things are very easy to miss, but can have a huge impact on gameplay and retention.
Whatever, still a rookie somewhere. Forums are far more stressing than the game
You could add objectives to that easily. It could be LMB to place, LMB to increment, RMB to decrement, MMB to cycle premade orders like attack/defend, but commanders should be saying what they want you to be doing there, really.
Noobs know to shoot RT's that are nearby, but they don't realise it's a major part of the game they should be seeking to do at all times. That should be more part of a tutorial system, or maybe the nearest res point you don't own becomes a default waypoint for rookies. I would prefer some notification system that displays hints for rookies instead of messing with waypoints.
I would suggest this order of teaching players what they need to know:
Introduction - Show the player what the game is about and what is existing.
Basic Training - Teach the player how to move in the game.
Strategy - Make the player familiar with the res game.
Advanced Training - People need to learn the importance of lane blocking an zoning here.
Teamwork - At last show people how to work as a team.
Well that’s all good but we need to achieve this by the player not realising that he is following the path we want him to go. So how do we achieve that the player learns like that?
Just realise that each player learns as fast and as far as he wants to learn.
Introduction:
Basically we have that already with tutorials, sandbox and vs bots mode. Maybe add tutorials for higher lifeforms and we are done here already. (the player is allowed to realise that he is being handheld here)
Basic Training:
This is an environment where people can play and learn to get used to weapon behaviours and how everything moves.
Theoretically that is already possible in sandbox mode but in generally it is alot more fun to experience this with and against real people.
I don’t think that rookie only servers are the best way to go here. I would suggest a seperate gamemode where people just need to care about the engagements.
Combat did that perfectly btw and if possible I would do everything possible to get that back into the main game (it shouldn’t have content (upgrades, weapons and skills) that is not in the ns2 main game though).
A good addition would be gungame where the lifeforms in themself are a weapon too.
In fact you need 2 gamemodes here (apart from ns2). One where you can choose your weapons on your own and one where you are lead through all of the weapons.
Strategy:
Now we are at the ns2 gamemode. In our good old public environment with 20+ player servers. People are confronted with the res and commander mechanic for the first time here and can learn those new things after they have a decent movement ability.
Advanced Training:
This is basically just a gather. (matchmaking prefered). We have a lobby where people can get in groups with friends if they want and then start queueing. So you can play 6v6 (or 7v7) games with friends if you want but also alone. Here we need a system where we can ensure that the teams have a commander and are not screwed with lifeform distribution.
I think something like the random dungeon finder from world of warcraft might be a good inspiration to look at.
Each player will have an ELO and it will only increase or decrease by playing those games (pubs shouldn’t effect elo in my opinion).
You might wanna look at seperating commander and field player ELO though.
That gather will play 2 rounds btw. One for each side with option to get a payback match.
Teamwork:
For this you need to be registered in a team to play this and then you can only play with 5 others out of your team. Your team will get an ELO on his own which ignores the ELO of the members. That way you kind of have a competitive team ladder. Or you can implement a league system with that aswell.
Apart from the “Teamwork” point no other step should be restricted though. Meaning a rookie should be able to play gathers right away if he wanted to (well maybe enforce tutorial first?).
The reasoning behind that is because some people will start playing for only the commander role for example. And he shouldn’t have to play through gun game or something like that first in order to experience the commander role. However a rookie playing pubs at the very beginning will get voted out of the chair instantly. But thankfully we still have rookie only pubs for that.
Once both commanders are in position, can we have a short timeout before the match actually begins? Make it 20-30 seconds. Then each team's comm can at least verbally tell his team what to focus on, decide who's going gorge, who's going to build in base, who the rookie should follow around, splits, etc. etc. without any time from the crucial early game being wasted as happens currently.